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European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 297

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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action.
Banaora
Profile Joined May 2013
Germany234 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-20 05:26:45
September 20 2015 05:12 GMT
#5921
It is a private blog, but did you follow the links there?
A link to the official police report: https://polisen.se/Aktuellt/Rapporter-och-publikationer/Rapporter/Publicerat---Nationellt/Ovriga-rapporterutredningar/Kriminella-natverk-med-stor-paverkan-i-lokalsamhallet/
An article in swedish newspaper Svenska Dagbladet: http://www.svd.se/55-no-go-zoner-i-sverige-minner-om-parallellsamhallen_4051399
In English: http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/02/23/from_the_welfare_state_to_the_caliphate_sweden_islamic_state_syria_iraq_foreign_fighters/

I don't know if foreignpolicy is a trustworthy site but I'm sure someone here will know. There are also people going from Germany to fight for ISIS so it's not only a swedish phenomenon.
Klowney
Profile Joined March 2011
Sweden277 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-20 11:55:06
September 20 2015 11:26 GMT
#5922
On September 20 2015 10:04 Nyxisto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2015 09:26 Klowney wrote:
Sweden will collapse soon, we get around 1000 asylum seekers every day now, debts growing massively, goverment has to loan money to pay for more migrants coming here, crime rate increased over 450% the last few years.


Or in other words, people have gotten better at reporting crime. These crime arguments are nonsensical really. The last big European study that evaluated violence against women in Europe showed that Denmark is the most dangerous place for women statistically speaking. It is a little more likely to assume that women in Denmark are just reporting domestic violence much more often than in other countries. It's a good example of how people are twisting statistics for their agenda. I also can't find any numbers that support the claim of "450% crime increase" in the first place.


In 1975, 421 rapes were reported in Sweden to the police. In 2014 that number is up to 6620. That's an increase of 1472%, does that sound normal to you? also, 87% of those were foreigners.

A bunch of asylum seekers went on a train a few days ago, on that train the stole as much as they could and threatened the people that worked there. Things like that happenes every single day here and they never get reported as it would make the goverment/immigrants look bad.

https://www.facebook.com/100006971236990/videos/1628531227389236/
https://www.facebook.com/pitupitu4/videos/418664468327501/
xM(Z
Profile Joined November 2006
Romania5299 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-20 13:03:06
September 20 2015 12:52 GMT
#5923
your first link is just weird. almost all white dudes, almost all dressed in black ... i mean who does that?; and it doesn't have to much context either.
the second link is not bad and it illustrates some points pretty good is just you can't really tell the magnitude/rate of occurrence of it all.

i still have a feeling that a whole lot more is going on here, up to and including getting EU involved in the middle eastern wars.
men are just sent to EU dude; payed, given fake passports and then just sent there. like wtf.
And my fury stands ready. I bring all your plans to nought. My bleak heart beats steady. 'Tis you whom I have sought.
maybenexttime
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Poland5757 Posts
September 20 2015 13:03 GMT
#5924
The first link shows Borussia Dortmund hooligans, look here:

WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-20 15:31:43
September 20 2015 15:10 GMT
#5925
On September 20 2015 22:03 maybenexttime wrote:
The first link shows Borussia Dortmund hooligans, look here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVB9u9ZuBik

Some citizens showing their dissatisfaction for their police force ? I see nothing problematic here.

On September 20 2015 20:26 Klowney wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2015 10:04 Nyxisto wrote:
On September 20 2015 09:26 Klowney wrote:
Sweden will collapse soon, we get around 1000 asylum seekers every day now, debts growing massively, goverment has to loan money to pay for more migrants coming here, crime rate increased over 450% the last few years.


Or in other words, people have gotten better at reporting crime. These crime arguments are nonsensical really. The last big European study that evaluated violence against women in Europe showed that Denmark is the most dangerous place for women statistically speaking. It is a little more likely to assume that women in Denmark are just reporting domestic violence much more often than in other countries. It's a good example of how people are twisting statistics for their agenda. I also can't find any numbers that support the claim of "450% crime increase" in the first place.


In 1975, 421 rapes were reported in Sweden to the police. In 2014 that number is up to 6620. That's an increase of 1472%, does that sound normal to you? also, 87% of those were foreigners.

A bunch of asylum seekers went on a train a few days ago, on that train the stole as much as they could and threatened the people that worked there. Things like that happenes every single day here and they never get reported as it would make the goverment/immigrants look bad.

https://www.facebook.com/100006971236990/videos/1628531227389236/
https://www.facebook.com/pitupitu4/videos/418664468327501/

Trying to argue against the idea that migration "increase crime" from a statistical point of view is pointless : it is like trying to deny that black are more recognized guilty of crimes than white in the US.
Yes it is true that in our society, migrants or sons of migrants usually makes more crimes. The problem is that usually it is not entirely their fault, but mostly the fault of the society, that create crimes that specifically touch minorities (the poorest would be a better words maybe), that punish more heavily when the perpetrator is coming from a minority and that overall fail to entirely integrate those minorities (high unemployment, less qualification and education, etc.) so much that they resort to crime.
Rape is a particular exemple because it usually still touch a huge minority of people and is not really representative and thus it is pretty hard to give an explanation (I have one, but I will not try to venture myself into this very troubling topic).

Edit for clarity.
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11752 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-20 15:25:11
September 20 2015 15:22 GMT
#5926
It doesn't have the slightest thing to do with what the guy posting it wanted to say about asylum seeker, though.

Also, beating things to a pulp is not a very civilized response to dissatisfaction.
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-20 15:37:49
September 20 2015 15:26 GMT
#5927
On September 21 2015 00:22 Simberto wrote:
It doesn't have the slightest thing to do with what the guy posting it wanted to say about asylum seeker, though.

Sorry I was not clear but I was responding to Nyxisto and other's arguments around numbers.

I quoted (and responded) to maybenexttime's video just for fun.

Also, beating things to a pulp is not a very civilized response to dissatisfaction.

No but it is very funny (well, when only some glass and cars are broken). Putting a figure of authority in place once in a while is always a good thing to do.
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
crappen
Profile Joined April 2010
Norway1546 Posts
September 20 2015 15:49 GMT
#5928
What's the worst that can happen for us that live in a wealthy country? We get a new old school religion? That religion is hard on females mostly, and in Norway, females are welcoming muslims so much, they break the law to go across borders to bring them in, risking jailtime.

All great things comes to an end, why not now? I'm talking the big IF we go downhill economically because of immigration. I just don't give a shit that is why I'm saying. Why should I? The people in Norway (60% election participation 1 week ago) has spoken, they want this.
Breavman
Profile Joined September 2004
Sweden598 Posts
September 20 2015 15:52 GMT
#5929
On September 20 2015 14:12 Banaora wrote:
It is a private blog, but did you follow the links there?
A link to the official police report: https://polisen.se/Aktuellt/Rapporter-och-publikationer/Rapporter/Publicerat---Nationellt/Ovriga-rapporterutredningar/Kriminella-natverk-med-stor-paverkan-i-lokalsamhallet/
An article in swedish newspaper Svenska Dagbladet: http://www.svd.se/55-no-go-zoner-i-sverige-minner-om-parallellsamhallen_4051399
In English: http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/02/23/from_the_welfare_state_to_the_caliphate_sweden_islamic_state_syria_iraq_foreign_fighters/

I don't know if foreignpolicy is a trustworthy site but I'm sure someone here will know. There are also people going from Germany to fight for ISIS so it's not only a swedish phenomenon.


That police report doesn't say there are areas where they can't enter or have given up control. It describes the most criminally affected areas in Sweden and talks about what strategies can be most effective there in the future. And it took me about 10 seconds to see that the "swedenreport" site is exaggerating things wildly.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-20 16:50:11
September 20 2015 16:44 GMT
#5930
On September 21 2015 00:52 Breavman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2015 14:12 Banaora wrote:
It is a private blog, but did you follow the links there?
A link to the official police report: https://polisen.se/Aktuellt/Rapporter-och-publikationer/Rapporter/Publicerat---Nationellt/Ovriga-rapporterutredningar/Kriminella-natverk-med-stor-paverkan-i-lokalsamhallet/
An article in swedish newspaper Svenska Dagbladet: http://www.svd.se/55-no-go-zoner-i-sverige-minner-om-parallellsamhallen_4051399
In English: http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/02/23/from_the_welfare_state_to_the_caliphate_sweden_islamic_state_syria_iraq_foreign_fighters/

I don't know if foreignpolicy is a trustworthy site but I'm sure someone here will know. There are also people going from Germany to fight for ISIS so it's not only a swedish phenomenon.


That police report doesn't say there are areas where they can't enter or have given up control. It describes the most criminally affected areas in Sweden and talks about what strategies can be most effective there in the future. And it took me about 10 seconds to see that the "swedenreport" site is exaggerating things wildly.


And that's the problem with linking private (and in this case right-wing) blogs in an internet discussion. I could've not actually responded to this because I sadly don't speak a word of Swedish. Make a somewhat legit looking website call it xyz.org and throw some random reports in that don't actually verify what you're trying to say and hope that nobody goes through a 50 page report.

Yes it is true that in our society, migrants or sons of migrants usually makes more crimes. The problem is that usually it is not entirely their fault, but mostly the fault of the society, that create crimes that specifically touch minorities (the poorest would be a better words maybe), that punish more heavily when the perpetrator is coming from a minority and that overall fail to entirely integrate those minorities (high unemployment, less qualification and education, etc.) so much that they resort to crime.


I agree but the problem with this is that somehow who doesn't subscribe to as you called it 'vulgar materialism' isn't going to think of it this way and will attribute it to "black culture" or "muslim culture" and you aren't going to convince somebody who thinks that only the individual is to blame. That's why I guess it's important to point out that correlation in crime statistics is questionable because so many things like detection rate always change.
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-20 19:15:58
September 20 2015 17:19 GMT
#5931
I agree but the problem with this is that somehow who doesn't subscribe to as you called it 'vulgar materialism' isn't going to think of it this way and will attribute it to "black culture" or "muslim culture" and you aren't going to convince somebody who thinks that only the individual is to blame. That's why I guess it's important to point out that correlation in crime statistics is questionable because so many things like detection rate always change.

Yes it all comes down to strategy.
I believe this is the biggest political division that exist thus far (way more important than the opposition between the "left" and the "right") and refusing to defend such "materialist" arguments against the culturalist vulgate that currently dominate the entire political debate is not a good strategy, especially when you're trying to fight against factually exact informations ("muslim/black/arabs/minorities" do more crimes than natives is factually exact - yet an information that leads to an untrue political analysis).
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
kwizach
Profile Joined June 2011
3658 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-20 17:53:56
September 20 2015 17:53 GMT
#5932
On September 21 2015 00:10 WhiteDog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2015 20:26 Klowney wrote:
On September 20 2015 10:04 Nyxisto wrote:
On September 20 2015 09:26 Klowney wrote:
Sweden will collapse soon, we get around 1000 asylum seekers every day now, debts growing massively, goverment has to loan money to pay for more migrants coming here, crime rate increased over 450% the last few years.


Or in other words, people have gotten better at reporting crime. These crime arguments are nonsensical really. The last big European study that evaluated violence against women in Europe showed that Denmark is the most dangerous place for women statistically speaking. It is a little more likely to assume that women in Denmark are just reporting domestic violence much more often than in other countries. It's a good example of how people are twisting statistics for their agenda. I also can't find any numbers that support the claim of "450% crime increase" in the first place.


In 1975, 421 rapes were reported in Sweden to the police. In 2014 that number is up to 6620. That's an increase of 1472%, does that sound normal to you? also, 87% of those were foreigners.

A bunch of asylum seekers went on a train a few days ago, on that train the stole as much as they could and threatened the people that worked there. Things like that happenes every single day here and they never get reported as it would make the goverment/immigrants look bad.

https://www.facebook.com/100006971236990/videos/1628531227389236/
https://www.facebook.com/pitupitu4/videos/418664468327501/

Trying to argue against the idea that migration "increase crime" from a statistical point of view is pointless : it is like trying to deny that black are more recognized guilty of crimes than white in the US.
Yes it is true that in our society, migrants or sons of migrants usually makes more crimes. The problem is that usually it is not entirely their fault, but mostly the fault of the society, that create crimes that specifically touch minorities (the poorest would be a better words maybe), that punish more heavily when the perpetrator is coming from a minority and that overall fail to entirely integrate those minorities (high unemployment, less qualification and education, etc.) so much that they resort to crime.

Exactly.
edit: in some cases, though, even from a statistical point-of-view immigrants are not more likely to commit more crime than natives.
"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions." -- Stephen Colbert
Narw
Profile Joined February 2011
Poland884 Posts
September 20 2015 18:08 GMT
#5933
On September 21 2015 00:52 Breavman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2015 14:12 Banaora wrote:
It is a private blog, but did you follow the links there?
A link to the official police report: https://polisen.se/Aktuellt/Rapporter-och-publikationer/Rapporter/Publicerat---Nationellt/Ovriga-rapporterutredningar/Kriminella-natverk-med-stor-paverkan-i-lokalsamhallet/
An article in swedish newspaper Svenska Dagbladet: http://www.svd.se/55-no-go-zoner-i-sverige-minner-om-parallellsamhallen_4051399
In English: http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/02/23/from_the_welfare_state_to_the_caliphate_sweden_islamic_state_syria_iraq_foreign_fighters/

I don't know if foreignpolicy is a trustworthy site but I'm sure someone here will know. There are also people going from Germany to fight for ISIS so it's not only a swedish phenomenon.


That police report doesn't say there are areas where they can't enter or have given up control. It describes the most criminally affected areas in Sweden and talks about what strategies can be most effective there in the future. And it took me about 10 seconds to see that the "swedenreport" site is exaggerating things wildly.



You are telling me that this report dosn't tells about zones where paramedics or firefighters could't enter without risk of being attacked and had to ask for police escort, and after some time even police was being attacked in those enclaves? That the report avoids mentioning muslims specificilly, but when those areas are confronted with immigrant "ghettos" there is a very suprising connection between those 2? That report dosn't state those things?

Cause that's how our most pro EU nation wide TV described it, and i would find it very strange for em to go out of their way to argue something that would go against their line of view.
MoltkeWarding
Profile Joined November 2003
5195 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-20 19:16:01
September 20 2015 19:15 GMT
#5934
On September 21 2015 01:44 Nyxisto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2015 00:52 Breavman wrote:
On September 20 2015 14:12 Banaora wrote:
It is a private blog, but did you follow the links there?
A link to the official police report: https://polisen.se/Aktuellt/Rapporter-och-publikationer/Rapporter/Publicerat---Nationellt/Ovriga-rapporterutredningar/Kriminella-natverk-med-stor-paverkan-i-lokalsamhallet/
An article in swedish newspaper Svenska Dagbladet: http://www.svd.se/55-no-go-zoner-i-sverige-minner-om-parallellsamhallen_4051399
In English: http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/02/23/from_the_welfare_state_to_the_caliphate_sweden_islamic_state_syria_iraq_foreign_fighters/

I don't know if foreignpolicy is a trustworthy site but I'm sure someone here will know. There are also people going from Germany to fight for ISIS so it's not only a swedish phenomenon.


That police report doesn't say there are areas where they can't enter or have given up control. It describes the most criminally affected areas in Sweden and talks about what strategies can be most effective there in the future. And it took me about 10 seconds to see that the "swedenreport" site is exaggerating things wildly.


And that's the problem with linking private (and in this case right-wing) blogs in an internet discussion. I could've not actually responded to this because I sadly don't speak a word of Swedish. Make a somewhat legit looking website call it xyz.org and throw some random reports in that don't actually verify what you're trying to say and hope that nobody goes through a 50 page report.

Show nested quote +
Yes it is true that in our society, migrants or sons of migrants usually makes more crimes. The problem is that usually it is not entirely their fault, but mostly the fault of the society, that create crimes that specifically touch minorities (the poorest would be a better words maybe), that punish more heavily when the perpetrator is coming from a minority and that overall fail to entirely integrate those minorities (high unemployment, less qualification and education, etc.) so much that they resort to crime.


I agree but the problem with this is that somehow who doesn't subscribe to as you called it 'vulgar materialism' isn't going to think of it this way and will attribute it to "black culture" or "muslim culture" and you aren't going to convince somebody who thinks that only the individual is to blame. That's why I guess it's important to point out that correlation in crime statistics is questionable because so many things like detection rate always change.


We do not need statistics to confirm the most basic prejudices: if I am walking in Central Prague at 10 in the evening, and I see a black man, I am going to assume that he is there in the service of the narcotic or prostitution trade. If I go to the Vietnamese market down at Argentinska, I am going to be weary about the integrity of their wares, and their price haggling tactics. If I am hunting for an apartment on campus, I am going to avoid sharing it with the Chinese. The fact that prejudices are mostly true most of the time lends structure to life, and activity to the mind, while being utterly practical, pragmatic and a net benefit to your personal well-being. The fact that they occasionally transgress the exact measures of justice cannot defeat the myriad benefits they confer.

So long as society is the abstraction to which we subordinate the ethical choices of individuals, I will simply say that this same society has put me at odds with certain elements, and in amity with certain other elements of itself, and I, like my allies and enemies, shall advance my happiness along the lines possible within its constitution.
xM(Z
Profile Joined November 2006
Romania5299 Posts
September 20 2015 19:35 GMT
#5935
dudes, it's fucking rape. you don't rape someone because you're poor and want to better your life ...
there's just no way you can justify that with materialism.
And my fury stands ready. I bring all your plans to nought. My bleak heart beats steady. 'Tis you whom I have sought.
BurningSera
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Ireland19621 Posts
September 20 2015 19:42 GMT
#5936
On September 21 2015 04:15 MoltkeWarding wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2015 01:44 Nyxisto wrote:
On September 21 2015 00:52 Breavman wrote:
On September 20 2015 14:12 Banaora wrote:
It is a private blog, but did you follow the links there?
A link to the official police report: https://polisen.se/Aktuellt/Rapporter-och-publikationer/Rapporter/Publicerat---Nationellt/Ovriga-rapporterutredningar/Kriminella-natverk-med-stor-paverkan-i-lokalsamhallet/
An article in swedish newspaper Svenska Dagbladet: http://www.svd.se/55-no-go-zoner-i-sverige-minner-om-parallellsamhallen_4051399
In English: http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/02/23/from_the_welfare_state_to_the_caliphate_sweden_islamic_state_syria_iraq_foreign_fighters/

I don't know if foreignpolicy is a trustworthy site but I'm sure someone here will know. There are also people going from Germany to fight for ISIS so it's not only a swedish phenomenon.


That police report doesn't say there are areas where they can't enter or have given up control. It describes the most criminally affected areas in Sweden and talks about what strategies can be most effective there in the future. And it took me about 10 seconds to see that the "swedenreport" site is exaggerating things wildly.


And that's the problem with linking private (and in this case right-wing) blogs in an internet discussion. I could've not actually responded to this because I sadly don't speak a word of Swedish. Make a somewhat legit looking website call it xyz.org and throw some random reports in that don't actually verify what you're trying to say and hope that nobody goes through a 50 page report.

Yes it is true that in our society, migrants or sons of migrants usually makes more crimes. The problem is that usually it is not entirely their fault, but mostly the fault of the society, that create crimes that specifically touch minorities (the poorest would be a better words maybe), that punish more heavily when the perpetrator is coming from a minority and that overall fail to entirely integrate those minorities (high unemployment, less qualification and education, etc.) so much that they resort to crime.


I agree but the problem with this is that somehow who doesn't subscribe to as you called it 'vulgar materialism' isn't going to think of it this way and will attribute it to "black culture" or "muslim culture" and you aren't going to convince somebody who thinks that only the individual is to blame. That's why I guess it's important to point out that correlation in crime statistics is questionable because so many things like detection rate always change.


We do not need statistics to confirm the most basic prejudices: if I am walking in Central Prague at 10 in the evening, and I see a black man, I am going to assume that he is there in the service of the narcotic or prostitution trade. If I go to the Vietnamese market down at Argentinska, I am going to be weary about the integrity of their wares, and their price haggling tactics. If I am hunting for an apartment on campus, I am going to avoid sharing it with the Chinese. The fact that prejudices are mostly true most of the time lends structure to life, and activity to the mind, while being utterly practical, pragmatic and a net benefit to your personal well-being. The fact that they occasionally transgress the exact measures of justice cannot defeat the myriad benefits they confer.

So long as society is the abstraction to which we subordinate the ethical choices of individuals, I will simply say that this same society has put me at odds with certain elements, and in amity with certain other elements of itself, and I, like my allies and enemies, shall advance my happiness along the lines possible within its constitution.


Is people like you who blame everything on multiculturalism. Are you actually trying to justify your prejudices here, I am actually trying hard to avoid using some horrible callings on you here. Like, really, 10pm at night seeing a black guy in Prague = he involves in human tracking lol.

Guess i shall see every white guy in Thailand as some white trash from now on.

I mean there are many fair (and much needed) stereotyping on different people from different places but that is based on alot of observation in life and travelling experience, and you clearly lack of them. Not saying what you said is not true, it is about the way you put it together shows that you lack of understanding of the full picture of foreign culture (both positives and negatives).
is 2017, stop being lame, fuck's sakes. 'Can't wait for the rise of the cakes and humanity's last stand tbqh.'
MoltkeWarding
Profile Joined November 2003
5195 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-20 19:56:31
September 20 2015 19:53 GMT
#5937
On September 21 2015 04:42 BurningSera wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2015 04:15 MoltkeWarding wrote:
On September 21 2015 01:44 Nyxisto wrote:
On September 21 2015 00:52 Breavman wrote:
On September 20 2015 14:12 Banaora wrote:
It is a private blog, but did you follow the links there?
A link to the official police report: https://polisen.se/Aktuellt/Rapporter-och-publikationer/Rapporter/Publicerat---Nationellt/Ovriga-rapporterutredningar/Kriminella-natverk-med-stor-paverkan-i-lokalsamhallet/
An article in swedish newspaper Svenska Dagbladet: http://www.svd.se/55-no-go-zoner-i-sverige-minner-om-parallellsamhallen_4051399
In English: http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/02/23/from_the_welfare_state_to_the_caliphate_sweden_islamic_state_syria_iraq_foreign_fighters/

I don't know if foreignpolicy is a trustworthy site but I'm sure someone here will know. There are also people going from Germany to fight for ISIS so it's not only a swedish phenomenon.


That police report doesn't say there are areas where they can't enter or have given up control. It describes the most criminally affected areas in Sweden and talks about what strategies can be most effective there in the future. And it took me about 10 seconds to see that the "swedenreport" site is exaggerating things wildly.


And that's the problem with linking private (and in this case right-wing) blogs in an internet discussion. I could've not actually responded to this because I sadly don't speak a word of Swedish. Make a somewhat legit looking website call it xyz.org and throw some random reports in that don't actually verify what you're trying to say and hope that nobody goes through a 50 page report.

Yes it is true that in our society, migrants or sons of migrants usually makes more crimes. The problem is that usually it is not entirely their fault, but mostly the fault of the society, that create crimes that specifically touch minorities (the poorest would be a better words maybe), that punish more heavily when the perpetrator is coming from a minority and that overall fail to entirely integrate those minorities (high unemployment, less qualification and education, etc.) so much that they resort to crime.


I agree but the problem with this is that somehow who doesn't subscribe to as you called it 'vulgar materialism' isn't going to think of it this way and will attribute it to "black culture" or "muslim culture" and you aren't going to convince somebody who thinks that only the individual is to blame. That's why I guess it's important to point out that correlation in crime statistics is questionable because so many things like detection rate always change.


We do not need statistics to confirm the most basic prejudices: if I am walking in Central Prague at 10 in the evening, and I see a black man, I am going to assume that he is there in the service of the narcotic or prostitution trade. If I go to the Vietnamese market down at Argentinska, I am going to be weary about the integrity of their wares, and their price haggling tactics. If I am hunting for an apartment on campus, I am going to avoid sharing it with the Chinese. The fact that prejudices are mostly true most of the time lends structure to life, and activity to the mind, while being utterly practical, pragmatic and a net benefit to your personal well-being. The fact that they occasionally transgress the exact measures of justice cannot defeat the myriad benefits they confer.

So long as society is the abstraction to which we subordinate the ethical choices of individuals, I will simply say that this same society has put me at odds with certain elements, and in amity with certain other elements of itself, and I, like my allies and enemies, shall advance my happiness along the lines possible within its constitution.


Is people like you who blame everything on multiculturalism. Are you actually trying to justify your prejudices here, I am actually trying hard to avoid using some horrible callings on you here. Like, really, 10pm at night seeing a black guy in Prague = he involves in human tracking lol.

Guess i shall see every white guy in Thailand as some white trash from now on.

I mean there are many fair (and much needed) stereotyping on different people from different places but that is based on alot of observation in life and travelling experience, and you clearly lack of them. Not saying what you said is not true, it is about the way you put it together shows that you lack of understanding of the full picture of foreign culture (both positives and negatives).


Not human trafficking, they act as front men and tourist hunters for the night clubs which are fronts for bordellos.

I have lived in six countries, and have visited about two dozen more, how about you?

I am very sorry for igniting your temper. If you listen to the gospel of WhiteDog, he will remind you that actually, it's mostly society's fault, and not mine.
Breavman
Profile Joined September 2004
Sweden598 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-20 20:20:40
September 20 2015 20:12 GMT
#5938
On September 21 2015 03:08 Narw wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2015 00:52 Breavman wrote:
On September 20 2015 14:12 Banaora wrote:
It is a private blog, but did you follow the links there?
A link to the official police report: https://polisen.se/Aktuellt/Rapporter-och-publikationer/Rapporter/Publicerat---Nationellt/Ovriga-rapporterutredningar/Kriminella-natverk-med-stor-paverkan-i-lokalsamhallet/
An article in swedish newspaper Svenska Dagbladet: http://www.svd.se/55-no-go-zoner-i-sverige-minner-om-parallellsamhallen_4051399
In English: http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/02/23/from_the_welfare_state_to_the_caliphate_sweden_islamic_state_syria_iraq_foreign_fighters/

I don't know if foreignpolicy is a trustworthy site but I'm sure someone here will know. There are also people going from Germany to fight for ISIS so it's not only a swedish phenomenon.


That police report doesn't say there are areas where they can't enter or have given up control. It describes the most criminally affected areas in Sweden and talks about what strategies can be most effective there in the future. And it took me about 10 seconds to see that the "swedenreport" site is exaggerating things wildly.



You are telling me that this report dosn't tells about zones where paramedics or firefighters could't enter without risk of being attacked and had to ask for police escort, and after some time even police was being attacked in those enclaves? That the report avoids mentioning muslims specificilly, but when those areas are confronted with immigrant "ghettos" there is a very suprising connection between those 2? That report dosn't state those things?

Cause that's how our most pro EU nation wide TV described it, and i would find it very strange for em to go out of their way to argue something that would go against their line of view.


The report says that there have been instances of police men being attacked during their work, but "in most of the areas however the police can walk around and patrol by foot without any fear of assault". I don't see any mentions of paramedics or fire fighters at all in this report. But I have read in newspapers about instances of people throwings rocks at fire fighter cars for example, so I know it's not unheard of.
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-20 20:32:01
September 20 2015 20:29 GMT
#5939
On September 21 2015 04:35 xM(Z wrote:
dudes, it's fucking rape. you don't rape someone because you're poor and want to better your life ...
there's just no way you can justify that with materialism.

I said rape is not really relevant : it touch a small part of the population. And materialism is not about justifying, it is about understanding. I'd never justify any crimes, they are unmoral and we need to punish them. The question is what do we do to lessen crime ?

On September 21 2015 04:53 MoltkeWarding wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2015 04:42 BurningSera wrote:
On September 21 2015 04:15 MoltkeWarding wrote:
On September 21 2015 01:44 Nyxisto wrote:
On September 21 2015 00:52 Breavman wrote:
On September 20 2015 14:12 Banaora wrote:
It is a private blog, but did you follow the links there?
A link to the official police report: https://polisen.se/Aktuellt/Rapporter-och-publikationer/Rapporter/Publicerat---Nationellt/Ovriga-rapporterutredningar/Kriminella-natverk-med-stor-paverkan-i-lokalsamhallet/
An article in swedish newspaper Svenska Dagbladet: http://www.svd.se/55-no-go-zoner-i-sverige-minner-om-parallellsamhallen_4051399
In English: http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/02/23/from_the_welfare_state_to_the_caliphate_sweden_islamic_state_syria_iraq_foreign_fighters/

I don't know if foreignpolicy is a trustworthy site but I'm sure someone here will know. There are also people going from Germany to fight for ISIS so it's not only a swedish phenomenon.


That police report doesn't say there are areas where they can't enter or have given up control. It describes the most criminally affected areas in Sweden and talks about what strategies can be most effective there in the future. And it took me about 10 seconds to see that the "swedenreport" site is exaggerating things wildly.


And that's the problem with linking private (and in this case right-wing) blogs in an internet discussion. I could've not actually responded to this because I sadly don't speak a word of Swedish. Make a somewhat legit looking website call it xyz.org and throw some random reports in that don't actually verify what you're trying to say and hope that nobody goes through a 50 page report.

Yes it is true that in our society, migrants or sons of migrants usually makes more crimes. The problem is that usually it is not entirely their fault, but mostly the fault of the society, that create crimes that specifically touch minorities (the poorest would be a better words maybe), that punish more heavily when the perpetrator is coming from a minority and that overall fail to entirely integrate those minorities (high unemployment, less qualification and education, etc.) so much that they resort to crime.


I agree but the problem with this is that somehow who doesn't subscribe to as you called it 'vulgar materialism' isn't going to think of it this way and will attribute it to "black culture" or "muslim culture" and you aren't going to convince somebody who thinks that only the individual is to blame. That's why I guess it's important to point out that correlation in crime statistics is questionable because so many things like detection rate always change.


We do not need statistics to confirm the most basic prejudices: if I am walking in Central Prague at 10 in the evening, and I see a black man, I am going to assume that he is there in the service of the narcotic or prostitution trade. If I go to the Vietnamese market down at Argentinska, I am going to be weary about the integrity of their wares, and their price haggling tactics. If I am hunting for an apartment on campus, I am going to avoid sharing it with the Chinese. The fact that prejudices are mostly true most of the time lends structure to life, and activity to the mind, while being utterly practical, pragmatic and a net benefit to your personal well-being. The fact that they occasionally transgress the exact measures of justice cannot defeat the myriad benefits they confer.

So long as society is the abstraction to which we subordinate the ethical choices of individuals, I will simply say that this same society has put me at odds with certain elements, and in amity with certain other elements of itself, and I, like my allies and enemies, shall advance my happiness along the lines possible within its constitution.


Is people like you who blame everything on multiculturalism. Are you actually trying to justify your prejudices here, I am actually trying hard to avoid using some horrible callings on you here. Like, really, 10pm at night seeing a black guy in Prague = he involves in human tracking lol.

Guess i shall see every white guy in Thailand as some white trash from now on.

I mean there are many fair (and much needed) stereotyping on different people from different places but that is based on alot of observation in life and travelling experience, and you clearly lack of them. Not saying what you said is not true, it is about the way you put it together shows that you lack of understanding of the full picture of foreign culture (both positives and negatives).


Not human trafficking, they act as front men and tourist hunters for the night clubs which are fronts for bordellos.

I have lived in six countries, and have visited about two dozen more, how about you?

I am very sorry for igniting your temper. If you listen to the gospel of WhiteDog, he will remind you that actually, it's mostly society's fault, and not mine.

Yeah, it's your familly fault that you are arrogant.
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
MoltkeWarding
Profile Joined November 2003
5195 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-20 20:59:17
September 20 2015 20:58 GMT
#5940
On September 21 2015 05:29 WhiteDog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2015 04:35 xM(Z wrote:
dudes, it's fucking rape. you don't rape someone because you're poor and want to better your life ...
there's just no way you can justify that with materialism.

I said rape is not really relevant : it touch a small part of the population. And materialism is not about justifying, it is about understanding. I'd never justify any crimes, they are unmoral and we need to punish them. The question is what do we do to lessen crime ?

Show nested quote +
On September 21 2015 04:53 MoltkeWarding wrote:
On September 21 2015 04:42 BurningSera wrote:
On September 21 2015 04:15 MoltkeWarding wrote:
On September 21 2015 01:44 Nyxisto wrote:
On September 21 2015 00:52 Breavman wrote:
On September 20 2015 14:12 Banaora wrote:
It is a private blog, but did you follow the links there?
A link to the official police report: https://polisen.se/Aktuellt/Rapporter-och-publikationer/Rapporter/Publicerat---Nationellt/Ovriga-rapporterutredningar/Kriminella-natverk-med-stor-paverkan-i-lokalsamhallet/
An article in swedish newspaper Svenska Dagbladet: http://www.svd.se/55-no-go-zoner-i-sverige-minner-om-parallellsamhallen_4051399
In English: http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/02/23/from_the_welfare_state_to_the_caliphate_sweden_islamic_state_syria_iraq_foreign_fighters/

I don't know if foreignpolicy is a trustworthy site but I'm sure someone here will know. There are also people going from Germany to fight for ISIS so it's not only a swedish phenomenon.


That police report doesn't say there are areas where they can't enter or have given up control. It describes the most criminally affected areas in Sweden and talks about what strategies can be most effective there in the future. And it took me about 10 seconds to see that the "swedenreport" site is exaggerating things wildly.


And that's the problem with linking private (and in this case right-wing) blogs in an internet discussion. I could've not actually responded to this because I sadly don't speak a word of Swedish. Make a somewhat legit looking website call it xyz.org and throw some random reports in that don't actually verify what you're trying to say and hope that nobody goes through a 50 page report.

Yes it is true that in our society, migrants or sons of migrants usually makes more crimes. The problem is that usually it is not entirely their fault, but mostly the fault of the society, that create crimes that specifically touch minorities (the poorest would be a better words maybe), that punish more heavily when the perpetrator is coming from a minority and that overall fail to entirely integrate those minorities (high unemployment, less qualification and education, etc.) so much that they resort to crime.


I agree but the problem with this is that somehow who doesn't subscribe to as you called it 'vulgar materialism' isn't going to think of it this way and will attribute it to "black culture" or "muslim culture" and you aren't going to convince somebody who thinks that only the individual is to blame. That's why I guess it's important to point out that correlation in crime statistics is questionable because so many things like detection rate always change.


We do not need statistics to confirm the most basic prejudices: if I am walking in Central Prague at 10 in the evening, and I see a black man, I am going to assume that he is there in the service of the narcotic or prostitution trade. If I go to the Vietnamese market down at Argentinska, I am going to be weary about the integrity of their wares, and their price haggling tactics. If I am hunting for an apartment on campus, I am going to avoid sharing it with the Chinese. The fact that prejudices are mostly true most of the time lends structure to life, and activity to the mind, while being utterly practical, pragmatic and a net benefit to your personal well-being. The fact that they occasionally transgress the exact measures of justice cannot defeat the myriad benefits they confer.

So long as society is the abstraction to which we subordinate the ethical choices of individuals, I will simply say that this same society has put me at odds with certain elements, and in amity with certain other elements of itself, and I, like my allies and enemies, shall advance my happiness along the lines possible within its constitution.


Is people like you who blame everything on multiculturalism. Are you actually trying to justify your prejudices here, I am actually trying hard to avoid using some horrible callings on you here. Like, really, 10pm at night seeing a black guy in Prague = he involves in human tracking lol.

Guess i shall see every white guy in Thailand as some white trash from now on.

I mean there are many fair (and much needed) stereotyping on different people from different places but that is based on alot of observation in life and travelling experience, and you clearly lack of them. Not saying what you said is not true, it is about the way you put it together shows that you lack of understanding of the full picture of foreign culture (both positives and negatives).


Not human trafficking, they act as front men and tourist hunters for the night clubs which are fronts for bordellos.

I have lived in six countries, and have visited about two dozen more, how about you?

I am very sorry for igniting your temper. If you listen to the gospel of WhiteDog, he will remind you that actually, it's mostly society's fault, and not mine.

Yeah, it's your familly fault that you are arrogant.


No, it's your fault. See below.

dudes, it's fucking rape. you don't rape someone because you're poor and want to better your life ...
there's just no way you can justify that with materialism.


Actually, it is very easily justifiable. My lack of possessions perpetually excludes me from social respectability; lacking social desires, I retreat to personal desires, which are not very complicated. My personal desires are food, drink, sleep and sex. If society wanted me to stop raping, it needs to care about me first, because people who want to be treated nicely have to be nice first.

The fact that you did not receive a Disney education like Whitedog is the reason you cannot grasp his profound understanding of society, just like the fact that WhiteDog does not treat me as a human being with the same divine spark which animates his own soul is to blame for my arrogance towards him.


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