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On September 21 2015 04:15 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2015 01:44 Nyxisto wrote:On September 21 2015 00:52 Breavman wrote:That police report doesn't say there are areas where they can't enter or have given up control. It describes the most criminally affected areas in Sweden and talks about what strategies can be most effective there in the future. And it took me about 10 seconds to see that the "swedenreport" site is exaggerating things wildly. And that's the problem with linking private (and in this case right-wing) blogs in an internet discussion. I could've not actually responded to this because I sadly don't speak a word of Swedish. Make a somewhat legit looking website call it xyz.org and throw some random reports in that don't actually verify what you're trying to say and hope that nobody goes through a 50 page report. Yes it is true that in our society, migrants or sons of migrants usually makes more crimes. The problem is that usually it is not entirely their fault, but mostly the fault of the society, that create crimes that specifically touch minorities (the poorest would be a better words maybe), that punish more heavily when the perpetrator is coming from a minority and that overall fail to entirely integrate those minorities (high unemployment, less qualification and education, etc.) so much that they resort to crime. I agree but the problem with this is that somehow who doesn't subscribe to as you called it 'vulgar materialism' isn't going to think of it this way and will attribute it to "black culture" or "muslim culture" and you aren't going to convince somebody who thinks that only the individual is to blame. That's why I guess it's important to point out that correlation in crime statistics is questionable because so many things like detection rate always change. We do not need statistics to confirm the most basic prejudices: if I am walking in Central Prague at 10 in the evening, and I see a black man, I am going to assume that he is there in the service of the narcotic or prostitution trade. If I go to the Vietnamese market down at Argentinska, I am going to be weary about the integrity of their wares, and their price haggling tactics. If I am hunting for an apartment on campus, I am going to avoid sharing it with the Chinese. The fact that prejudices are mostly true most of the time lends structure to life, and activity to the mind, while being utterly practical, pragmatic and a net benefit to your personal well-being. The fact that they occasionally transgress the exact measures of justice cannot defeat the myriad benefits they confer. So long as society is the abstraction to which we subordinate the ethical choices of individuals, I will simply say that this same society has put me at odds with certain elements, and in amity with certain other elements of itself, and I, like my allies and enemies, shall advance my happiness along the lines possible within its constitution.
And you don't see it as problematic that we collectively keep spinning these narratives around people and that we're actively coercing them into these roles? Just like there are numerous women in oppressive countries who believe themselves that it is their duty to serve and not enjoy numerous rights because they've been told for so long that they now actually believe it without actually needing to do anything?
If you tell people long enough that they're destined to live poor and criminal lives they'll at some point accept it. That doesn't mean that it was their free decision or their 'nature' but exactly the opposite. What you describe as "practical stereotypes" is a very dangerous thing if done collectively.
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On September 21 2015 05:29 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2015 04:35 xM(Z wrote:
dudes, it's fucking rape. you don't rape someone because you're poor and want to better your life ...
there's just no way you can justify that with materialism. I said rape is not really relevant : it touch a small part of the population. And materialism is not about justifying, it is about understanding. I'd never justify any crimes, they are unmoral and we need to punish them. The question is what do we do to lessen crime ?
honestly your question looks really trollish to me so i'll answer like this: throw more money at them 'cause it'll fix everything.
@Narw: you can translate that pdf pretty easily with google translate. Breavman is downplaying it by quite a lot imo.
there's some political correctness bs in there and some people just take it as is.
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Let's make it clear a little : the crimes we are talking about is coming from a minority within the minority. Most of the migrants / poor people don't do anything bad and live a rather peaceful life despite their condition. I remember the first time I read the communist manifesto I was shocked about the way he used to talk about the "lumpen" proletariat, the poorest of the poorest. Marx seemed to be pretty hard on them, and those are the kind of people that comit crimes : there is no justification from hurting any citizen (aside from self defense) or stealing in order to enrich yourself, and noting that those actions might be caused by the general condition in which those people live is not a way to excuse.
Quite the contrary, I actually consider the "refusal to achieve" (a popular moto in France XIXth century socialists movement) to be the most moral thing to do.
On September 21 2015 06:05 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2015 05:29 WhiteDog wrote:On September 21 2015 04:35 xM(Z wrote:
dudes, it's fucking rape. you don't rape someone because you're poor and want to better your life ...
there's just no way you can justify that with materialism. I said rape is not really relevant : it touch a small part of the population. And materialism is not about justifying, it is about understanding. I'd never justify any crimes, they are unmoral and we need to punish them. The question is what do we do to lessen crime ? honestly your question looks really trollish to me so i'll answer like this: throw more money at them 'cause it'll fix everything. @Narw: you can translate that pdf pretty easily with google translate. Breavman is downplaying it by quite a lot imo. there's some political correctness bs in there and some people just take it as is.
Money is part of the problem imo. The solution is in education, in jobs, in urban development and cultural/social diversity, not in "money" : in other words, changing the society. France spend tons of money in the poorest with shitty results.
On September 21 2015 05:58 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2015 05:29 WhiteDog wrote:On September 21 2015 04:35 xM(Z wrote:
dudes, it's fucking rape. you don't rape someone because you're poor and want to better your life ...
there's just no way you can justify that with materialism. I said rape is not really relevant : it touch a small part of the population. And materialism is not about justifying, it is about understanding. I'd never justify any crimes, they are unmoral and we need to punish them. The question is what do we do to lessen crime ? On September 21 2015 04:53 MoltkeWarding wrote:On September 21 2015 04:42 BurningSera wrote:On September 21 2015 04:15 MoltkeWarding wrote:On September 21 2015 01:44 Nyxisto wrote:On September 21 2015 00:52 Breavman wrote:That police report doesn't say there are areas where they can't enter or have given up control. It describes the most criminally affected areas in Sweden and talks about what strategies can be most effective there in the future. And it took me about 10 seconds to see that the "swedenreport" site is exaggerating things wildly. And that's the problem with linking private (and in this case right-wing) blogs in an internet discussion. I could've not actually responded to this because I sadly don't speak a word of Swedish. Make a somewhat legit looking website call it xyz.org and throw some random reports in that don't actually verify what you're trying to say and hope that nobody goes through a 50 page report. Yes it is true that in our society, migrants or sons of migrants usually makes more crimes. The problem is that usually it is not entirely their fault, but mostly the fault of the society, that create crimes that specifically touch minorities (the poorest would be a better words maybe), that punish more heavily when the perpetrator is coming from a minority and that overall fail to entirely integrate those minorities (high unemployment, less qualification and education, etc.) so much that they resort to crime. I agree but the problem with this is that somehow who doesn't subscribe to as you called it 'vulgar materialism' isn't going to think of it this way and will attribute it to "black culture" or "muslim culture" and you aren't going to convince somebody who thinks that only the individual is to blame. That's why I guess it's important to point out that correlation in crime statistics is questionable because so many things like detection rate always change. We do not need statistics to confirm the most basic prejudices: if I am walking in Central Prague at 10 in the evening, and I see a black man, I am going to assume that he is there in the service of the narcotic or prostitution trade. If I go to the Vietnamese market down at Argentinska, I am going to be weary about the integrity of their wares, and their price haggling tactics. If I am hunting for an apartment on campus, I am going to avoid sharing it with the Chinese. The fact that prejudices are mostly true most of the time lends structure to life, and activity to the mind, while being utterly practical, pragmatic and a net benefit to your personal well-being. The fact that they occasionally transgress the exact measures of justice cannot defeat the myriad benefits they confer. So long as society is the abstraction to which we subordinate the ethical choices of individuals, I will simply say that this same society has put me at odds with certain elements, and in amity with certain other elements of itself, and I, like my allies and enemies, shall advance my happiness along the lines possible within its constitution. Is people like you who blame everything on multiculturalism. Are you actually trying to justify your prejudices here, I am actually trying hard to avoid using some horrible callings on you here. Like, really, 10pm at night seeing a black guy in Prague = he involves in human tracking lol. Guess i shall see every white guy in Thailand as some white trash from now on. I mean there are many fair (and much needed) stereotyping on different people from different places but that is based on alot of observation in life and travelling experience, and you clearly lack of them. Not saying what you said is not true, it is about the way you put it together shows that you lack of understanding of the full picture of foreign culture (both positives and negatives). Not human trafficking, they act as front men and tourist hunters for the night clubs which are fronts for bordellos. I have lived in six countries, and have visited about two dozen more, how about you? I am very sorry for igniting your temper. If you listen to the gospel of WhiteDog, he will remind you that actually, it's mostly society's fault, and not mine. Yeah, it's your familly fault that you are arrogant. No, it's your fault. See below. Show nested quote +dudes, it's fucking rape. you don't rape someone because you're poor and want to better your life ...
there's just no way you can justify that with materialism. Actually, it is very easily justifiable. My lack of possessions perpetually excludes me from social respectability; lacking social desires, I retreat to personal desires, which are not very complicated. My personal desires are food, drink, sleep and sex. If society wanted me to stop raping, it needs to care about me first, because people who want to be treated nicely have to be nice first. The fact that you did not receive a Disney education like Whitedog is the reason you cannot grasp his profound understanding of society, just like the fact that WhiteDog does not treat me as a human being with the same divine spark which animates his own soul is to blame for my arrogance towards him.
I actually believe there is a cultural explanation to the poor relationship that muslim or arabic men have with women. But it's not disney that told me.
It's true that I'm pretty divine tho.
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On September 21 2015 06:07 WhiteDog wrote:Let's make it clear a little : the crimes we are talking about is coming from a minority within the minority. Most of the migrants / poor people don't do anything bad and live a rather peaceful life despite their condition. I remember the first time I read the communist manifesto I was shocked about the way he used to talk about the "lumpen" proletariat, the poorest of the poorest. Marx seemed to be pretty hard on them, and those are the kind of people that comit crimes : there is no justification from hurting any citizen (aside from self defense) or stealing in order to enrich yourself, and noting that those actions might be caused by the general condition in which those people live is not a way to excuse. Quite the contrary, I actually consider the "refusal to achieve" (a popular moto in France XIXth century socialists movement) to be the most moral thing to do. Show nested quote +On September 21 2015 06:05 xM(Z wrote:On September 21 2015 05:29 WhiteDog wrote:On September 21 2015 04:35 xM(Z wrote:
dudes, it's fucking rape. you don't rape someone because you're poor and want to better your life ...
there's just no way you can justify that with materialism. I said rape is not really relevant : it touch a small part of the population. And materialism is not about justifying, it is about understanding. I'd never justify any crimes, they are unmoral and we need to punish them. The question is what do we do to lessen crime ? honestly your question looks really trollish to me so i'll answer like this: throw more money at them 'cause it'll fix everything. @Narw: you can translate that pdf pretty easily with google translate. Breavman is downplaying it by quite a lot imo. there's some political correctness bs in there and some people just take it as is. Money is part of the problem imo. The solution is in education, in jobs, in urban development and cultural/social diversity, not in "money" : in other words, changing the society. France spend tons of money in the poorest with shitty results.
no dude no. in all aspects of life, since the dawn of the evolution, the one driving the change is the environment.
you are the environment and you do nothing. you just throw around some change+ Show Spoiler +, pity, opinions, rationale etcetcetc and hope shit will just fix itself.
you don't want an answer to your question because you can't handle it.
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On September 21 2015 06:21 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2015 06:07 WhiteDog wrote:Let's make it clear a little : the crimes we are talking about is coming from a minority within the minority. Most of the migrants / poor people don't do anything bad and live a rather peaceful life despite their condition. I remember the first time I read the communist manifesto I was shocked about the way he used to talk about the "lumpen" proletariat, the poorest of the poorest. Marx seemed to be pretty hard on them, and those are the kind of people that comit crimes : there is no justification from hurting any citizen (aside from self defense) or stealing in order to enrich yourself, and noting that those actions might be caused by the general condition in which those people live is not a way to excuse. Quite the contrary, I actually consider the "refusal to achieve" (a popular moto in France XIXth century socialists movement) to be the most moral thing to do. On September 21 2015 06:05 xM(Z wrote:On September 21 2015 05:29 WhiteDog wrote:On September 21 2015 04:35 xM(Z wrote:
dudes, it's fucking rape. you don't rape someone because you're poor and want to better your life ...
there's just no way you can justify that with materialism. I said rape is not really relevant : it touch a small part of the population. And materialism is not about justifying, it is about understanding. I'd never justify any crimes, they are unmoral and we need to punish them. The question is what do we do to lessen crime ? honestly your question looks really trollish to me so i'll answer like this: throw more money at them 'cause it'll fix everything. @Narw: you can translate that pdf pretty easily with google translate. Breavman is downplaying it by quite a lot imo. there's some political correctness bs in there and some people just take it as is. Money is part of the problem imo. The solution is in education, in jobs, in urban development and cultural/social diversity, not in "money" : in other words, changing the society. France spend tons of money in the poorest with shitty results. no dude no. in all aspects of life, since the dawn of the evolution, the one driving the change is the environment. you are the environment and you do nothing. you just throw around some change + Show Spoiler +, pity, opinions, rationale etcetcetc and hope shit will just fix itself. you don't want an answer to you question because you can't handle it.
If you solution is the revolution my dear xM(Z, then I salute you.
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On September 21 2015 06:26 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2015 06:21 xM(Z wrote:On September 21 2015 06:07 WhiteDog wrote:Let's make it clear a little : the crimes we are talking about is coming from a minority within the minority. Most of the migrants / poor people don't do anything bad and live a rather peaceful life despite their condition. I remember the first time I read the communist manifesto I was shocked about the way he used to talk about the "lumpen" proletariat, the poorest of the poorest. Marx seemed to be pretty hard on them, and those are the kind of people that comit crimes : there is no justification from hurting any citizen (aside from self defense) or stealing in order to enrich yourself, and noting that those actions might be caused by the general condition in which those people live is not a way to excuse. Quite the contrary, I actually consider the "refusal to achieve" (a popular moto in France XIXth century socialists movement) to be the most moral thing to do. On September 21 2015 06:05 xM(Z wrote:On September 21 2015 05:29 WhiteDog wrote:On September 21 2015 04:35 xM(Z wrote:
dudes, it's fucking rape. you don't rape someone because you're poor and want to better your life ...
there's just no way you can justify that with materialism. I said rape is not really relevant : it touch a small part of the population. And materialism is not about justifying, it is about understanding. I'd never justify any crimes, they are unmoral and we need to punish them. The question is what do we do to lessen crime ? honestly your question looks really trollish to me so i'll answer like this: throw more money at them 'cause it'll fix everything. @Narw: you can translate that pdf pretty easily with google translate. Breavman is downplaying it by quite a lot imo. there's some political correctness bs in there and some people just take it as is. Money is part of the problem imo. The solution is in education, in jobs, in urban development and cultural/social diversity, not in "money" : in other words, changing the society. France spend tons of money in the poorest with shitty results. no dude no. in all aspects of life, since the dawn of the evolution, the one driving the change is the environment. you are the environment and you do nothing. you just throw around some change + Show Spoiler +, pity, opinions, rationale etcetcetc and hope shit will just fix itself. you don't want an answer to you question because you can't handle it. If you solution is the revolution my dear xM(Z, then I salute you.
yea, i know. you're just so damn civilized now!+ Show Spoiler +. go with please couple times and see if it works.
i don't see the make a revolution angle. you revolt against the immigrants?, against the ones who are different?...
anyway, you can start by splitting them. do not ever let them congregate. each and every one of them need to have you+ Show Spoiler +you, the french people; don't nitpick here dude - but they're all french! and blablabla
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you can start by splitting them. do not ever let them congregate. each and every one of them need to have you+ Show Spoiler + as the environment.
I totally agree (that's why I said we need urban development and social/ethnical diversity). To permit a good integration one must also destroy preexisting and structuring cultural link (this was, in the XIXth, the essence of the critic against religions).
The french solution to that is to make love with everybody (and it's not really a joke, even the numbers support this, with a high number of heterogenous couple, around 20 % - in this regard, fighting against the islamic veil is important).
And don't try to justify yourself, I know you're one of us, in your own way.
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well you're a fat politician and i'm on the barricades but sure, in our own way ...
the love shenanigans can't be step nr1. it takes to long and if you factor in the divorce %, the offspring will be either to late to the party(~20years or so until he will actually matter) or just very messed up from his parents break up.
Edit: about the culture thing - i'm way more pragmatic: you came here because your culture(some aspects of your culture but honestly i don't care which ones) failed you. a failed culture does not get to live on. it has no merits.
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On September 21 2015 06:01 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2015 04:15 MoltkeWarding wrote:On September 21 2015 01:44 Nyxisto wrote:On September 21 2015 00:52 Breavman wrote:That police report doesn't say there are areas where they can't enter or have given up control. It describes the most criminally affected areas in Sweden and talks about what strategies can be most effective there in the future. And it took me about 10 seconds to see that the "swedenreport" site is exaggerating things wildly. And that's the problem with linking private (and in this case right-wing) blogs in an internet discussion. I could've not actually responded to this because I sadly don't speak a word of Swedish. Make a somewhat legit looking website call it xyz.org and throw some random reports in that don't actually verify what you're trying to say and hope that nobody goes through a 50 page report. Yes it is true that in our society, migrants or sons of migrants usually makes more crimes. The problem is that usually it is not entirely their fault, but mostly the fault of the society, that create crimes that specifically touch minorities (the poorest would be a better words maybe), that punish more heavily when the perpetrator is coming from a minority and that overall fail to entirely integrate those minorities (high unemployment, less qualification and education, etc.) so much that they resort to crime. I agree but the problem with this is that somehow who doesn't subscribe to as you called it 'vulgar materialism' isn't going to think of it this way and will attribute it to "black culture" or "muslim culture" and you aren't going to convince somebody who thinks that only the individual is to blame. That's why I guess it's important to point out that correlation in crime statistics is questionable because so many things like detection rate always change. We do not need statistics to confirm the most basic prejudices: if I am walking in Central Prague at 10 in the evening, and I see a black man, I am going to assume that he is there in the service of the narcotic or prostitution trade. If I go to the Vietnamese market down at Argentinska, I am going to be weary about the integrity of their wares, and their price haggling tactics. If I am hunting for an apartment on campus, I am going to avoid sharing it with the Chinese. The fact that prejudices are mostly true most of the time lends structure to life, and activity to the mind, while being utterly practical, pragmatic and a net benefit to your personal well-being. The fact that they occasionally transgress the exact measures of justice cannot defeat the myriad benefits they confer. So long as society is the abstraction to which we subordinate the ethical choices of individuals, I will simply say that this same society has put me at odds with certain elements, and in amity with certain other elements of itself, and I, like my allies and enemies, shall advance my happiness along the lines possible within its constitution. And you don't see it as problematic that we collectively keep spinning these narratives around people and that we're actively coercing them into these roles? Just like there are numerous women in oppressive countries who believe themselves that it is their duty to serve and not enjoy numerous rights because they've been told for so long that they now actually believe it without actually needing to do anything? If you tell people long enough that they're destined to live poor and criminal lives they'll at some point accept it. That doesn't mean that it was their free decision or their 'nature' but exactly the opposite. What you describe as "practical stereotypes" is a very dangerous thing if done collectively.
It is not problematic because civilised society is a creative project, not a rational norm. The will to make the world a synthesis of rational values is doomed to fail, and is not even desirable from an aesthetic standpoint. Furthermore, I cannot help but understand this self-fulfilling categorisation theory as a network of circular assumptions which do not engage with the experience of how minorities actually think and behave. Do Asians get high math grades because society expects them to? Or is it because they come from a Confucian society in which a certain kind of rote education has been the gateway to social distinction for centuries, and upon emigrating, this is one of the forms of social advancement in an alien society that is immediately familiar to them?
Have you ever talked to any person belonging to a minority, who is not a politically engaged propagandist, who has told you that they feel limited by the pressure of social stereotypes? (One exception perhaps: in romantic and sexual matters) In my experience, no natural person believes this; the only people who apparently believe this are sociologists.
I do not have any patience for false consciousness arguments, unless you have a vivid and attractive vision for a hierarchy of consciousness and you have some convincing evidence that you have reached a higher level than the remainder of society.
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They don't actually need to believe it for it to be true, but I think everybody has experienced that your close environment plays a strong role in shaping someones personal outcome. If your family values education, chances are you'll try hard to get good grades. If your friends skip class, you'll be tempted to skip class. At least this seems more plausible than arcane references to Confucius influencing my my everyday life.
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It is another way of saying the same thing: the people who shape your formative years before the rational mind asserts itself to select its own ideas are your parents, teachers and pastors. It is not that I, from the seculsion of my thoughts, coerce the Arab child into a destiny of debauchery and violence. If I had any influence, I would be operating from the last line of responsibility, not the first, and whatever influence I might have is mitigated by the higher importance of simply being able to form impressions, judgements and beliefs free from the duress of self-hypnosis and hypocrisy.
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Greek leftist Alexis Tsipras stormed back into office with an unexpectedly decisive election victory on Sunday, claiming a clear mandate to steer Greece's battered economy to recovery.
The vote ensured Europe's most outspoken leftist leader would remain Greece's dominant political figure, despite having been abandoned by party radicals last month after he caved in to demands for austerity to win a bailout from the euro zone.
In a victory speech to cheering crowds in a central Athens square, he promised a new phase of stability in a country that has held five general elections in six years, saying his mandate would now see him through a full term.
"Today in Europe, Greece and the Greek people are synonymous with resistance and dignity. This struggle will be continued together for a full four years," he said.
He made no specific reference to the 86 billion euro ($97 billion) bailout, but Syriza campaigned on a pledge to implement it, while promising also to introduce measures to protect vulnerable groups from some aspects of the deal.
"We have difficulties ahead of us but we also have a solid ground, we know where we can step, we have a prospect. Recovery from the crisis can't come magically, but it can come through tough work," he said.
Tsipras's first task after forming a government will be to persuade European Union lenders that enough agreed steps have been made to ensure the next payment. The bailout program is due for a review next month.
Jeroen Dijsselbloem, the Dutch head of the Eurogroup of finance ministers that use the single currency, said he looked forward to the swift formation of a new Greek government with a mandate to implement the bailout.
"Ready to work closely with the Greek authorities and to continue accompanying Greece in its ambitious reform efforts," Dijsselbloem tweeted.
Tsipras will also need to grapple with Greece's central role in Europe's refugee crisis, as the main entry point for tens of thousands of migrants who arrive by sea and trek up the Balkan peninsula to richer EU countries further north. He meets EU colleagues at an emergency summit over the crisis on Wednesday.
In a near repeat of January's general election, his Syriza party fell just shy of an outright majority but will form a coalition with his former partners, the small rightwing Independent Greeks party.
With 99.5 percent of votes counted, Syriza had claimed 35.5 percent of the vote, easily seeing off the main conservative challengers New Democracy on 28.1 percent.
New Democracy swiftly conceded defeat. Leader Vangelis Meimarakis said: "The electoral result appears to be concluding with Syriza and Mr Tsipras in the lead. I congratulate him and urge him to create the government which is needed."
Third place in the election again went to Golden Dawn, a far right party with a swastika-like symbol, with 7 percent of the vote.
www.reuters.com
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The recent Volkswagen scandal in the US has resulted in a very bad situation for German automakers:
http://www.cnbc.com/2015/09/21/volkswagen-stock-drops-20-on-us-diesel-recall-probe.html
Because of the US federal authorities discovering that Volkswagen fitted in an emissions controller which became activated only during emissions testing, it means Volkswagen may be facing $18 billion USD in fines and also further litigation.
Shares of Volkswagen have dropped 25%, while other German automakers have also taken a beating.
I expect some animosity between Germany and the US in the coming months. This will be a huge blow to the German economy.
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Zurich15362 Posts
On September 21 2015 19:25 RapidTiger wrote:The recent Volkswagen scandal in the US has resulted in a very bad situation for German automakers: http://www.cnbc.com/2015/09/21/volkswagen-stock-drops-20-on-us-diesel-recall-probe.htmlBecause of the US federal authorities discovering that Volkswagen fitted in an emissions controller which became activated only during emissions testing, it means Volkswagen may be facing $18 billion USD in fines and also further litigation. Shares of Volkswagen have dropped 25%, while other German automakers have also taken a beating. I expect some animosity between Germany and the US in the coming months. This will be a huge blow to the German economy.
The last part is overstating it, but the scandal is truly outrageous. And really, how can you get so idiotic to come up with a scheme like this?
Luckily as usual German has a beautiful word for this: Größenwahn.
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On September 21 2015 19:39 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2015 19:25 RapidTiger wrote:The recent Volkswagen scandal in the US has resulted in a very bad situation for German automakers: http://www.cnbc.com/2015/09/21/volkswagen-stock-drops-20-on-us-diesel-recall-probe.htmlBecause of the US federal authorities discovering that Volkswagen fitted in an emissions controller which became activated only during emissions testing, it means Volkswagen may be facing $18 billion USD in fines and also further litigation. Shares of Volkswagen have dropped 25%, while other German automakers have also taken a beating. I expect some animosity between Germany and the US in the coming months. This will be a huge blow to the German economy. The last part is overstating it, but the scandal is truly outrageous. And really, how can you get so idiotic to come up with a scheme like this? Luckily as usual German has a beautiful word for this: Größenwahn.
You do know that these "chips" are quite common, yes? It's a plague for journalists as well, where test-vehicles on the dyno reduce their power output - to make them feel "spritziger".
It's not outrageous or an idiotic scheme. Everyone does it one way or the other - and not only german manufacturers.
edit: to be clear, i'm absolutely against it - i just don't see the outrage. It's rather funny that VW got called out, and not GM.
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On September 21 2015 17:52 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +Greek leftist Alexis Tsipras stormed back into office with an unexpectedly decisive election victory on Sunday, claiming a clear mandate to steer Greece's battered economy to recovery.
The vote ensured Europe's most outspoken leftist leader would remain Greece's dominant political figure, despite having been abandoned by party radicals last month after he caved in to demands for austerity to win a bailout from the euro zone.
In a victory speech to cheering crowds in a central Athens square, he promised a new phase of stability in a country that has held five general elections in six years, saying his mandate would now see him through a full term.
"Today in Europe, Greece and the Greek people are synonymous with resistance and dignity. This struggle will be continued together for a full four years," he said.
He made no specific reference to the 86 billion euro ($97 billion) bailout, but Syriza campaigned on a pledge to implement it, while promising also to introduce measures to protect vulnerable groups from some aspects of the deal.
"We have difficulties ahead of us but we also have a solid ground, we know where we can step, we have a prospect. Recovery from the crisis can't come magically, but it can come through tough work," he said.
Tsipras's first task after forming a government will be to persuade European Union lenders that enough agreed steps have been made to ensure the next payment. The bailout program is due for a review next month.
Jeroen Dijsselbloem, the Dutch head of the Eurogroup of finance ministers that use the single currency, said he looked forward to the swift formation of a new Greek government with a mandate to implement the bailout.
"Ready to work closely with the Greek authorities and to continue accompanying Greece in its ambitious reform efforts," Dijsselbloem tweeted.
Tsipras will also need to grapple with Greece's central role in Europe's refugee crisis, as the main entry point for tens of thousands of migrants who arrive by sea and trek up the Balkan peninsula to richer EU countries further north. He meets EU colleagues at an emergency summit over the crisis on Wednesday.
In a near repeat of January's general election, his Syriza party fell just shy of an outright majority but will form a coalition with his former partners, the small rightwing Independent Greeks party.
With 99.5 percent of votes counted, Syriza had claimed 35.5 percent of the vote, easily seeing off the main conservative challengers New Democracy on 28.1 percent.
New Democracy swiftly conceded defeat. Leader Vangelis Meimarakis said: "The electoral result appears to be concluding with Syriza and Mr Tsipras in the lead. I congratulate him and urge him to create the government which is needed."
Third place in the election again went to Golden Dawn, a far right party with a swastika-like symbol, with 7 percent of the vote. www.reuters.com
Well at least this hopefully avoids a new crisis in the near future. Guess we came back for the 4th bailout in a few years
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On September 21 2015 20:06 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2015 19:39 zatic wrote:On September 21 2015 19:25 RapidTiger wrote:The recent Volkswagen scandal in the US has resulted in a very bad situation for German automakers: http://www.cnbc.com/2015/09/21/volkswagen-stock-drops-20-on-us-diesel-recall-probe.htmlBecause of the US federal authorities discovering that Volkswagen fitted in an emissions controller which became activated only during emissions testing, it means Volkswagen may be facing $18 billion USD in fines and also further litigation. Shares of Volkswagen have dropped 25%, while other German automakers have also taken a beating. I expect some animosity between Germany and the US in the coming months. This will be a huge blow to the German economy. The last part is overstating it, but the scandal is truly outrageous. And really, how can you get so idiotic to come up with a scheme like this? Luckily as usual German has a beautiful word for this: Größenwahn. You do know that these "chips" are quite common, yes? It's a plague for journalists as well, where test-vehicles on the dyno reduce their power output - to make them feel "spritziger". It's not outrageous or an idiotic scheme. Everyone does it one way or the other - and not only german manufacturers. edit: to be clear, i'm absolutely against it - i just don't see the outrage. It's rather funny that VW got called out, and not GM.
Yup. Had a colleague who had worked for Fiat. He said he disagreed with the policy, calling it fraud. He was invited to cooperate or quit. He got fired soon after. How much of that is true, I don't know. He has a lot of tall tales, but the bit about the chip limiting engine output when test routines are recognized, is pretty unremarkable. All car manufacturers do it. VW probably pissed off some politicians somewhere, and got themselves fucked. This kind of thing is 99% political and 1% law enforcement.
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On September 21 2015 20:06 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2015 19:39 zatic wrote:On September 21 2015 19:25 RapidTiger wrote:The recent Volkswagen scandal in the US has resulted in a very bad situation for German automakers: http://www.cnbc.com/2015/09/21/volkswagen-stock-drops-20-on-us-diesel-recall-probe.htmlBecause of the US federal authorities discovering that Volkswagen fitted in an emissions controller which became activated only during emissions testing, it means Volkswagen may be facing $18 billion USD in fines and also further litigation. Shares of Volkswagen have dropped 25%, while other German automakers have also taken a beating. I expect some animosity between Germany and the US in the coming months. This will be a huge blow to the German economy. The last part is overstating it, but the scandal is truly outrageous. And really, how can you get so idiotic to come up with a scheme like this? Luckily as usual German has a beautiful word for this: Größenwahn. You do know that these "chips" are quite common, yes? It's a plague for journalists as well, where test-vehicles on the dyno reduce their power output - to make them feel "spritziger". It's not outrageous or an idiotic scheme. Everyone does it one way or the other - and not only german manufacturers. edit: to be clear, i'm absolutely against it - i just don't see the outrage. It's rather funny that VW got called out, and not GM.
Yes, I assume most car manufacturers do that, it's an open secret, really, and not only for emission tests, but for mpg grading as well. It is probably more pronounced for manufacturers relying on filters (the hack is supposedly to have the cleaning burn cycles for those filters occur more rarley than required, to save horsepower and mpg) as opposed to those using liquid chemical consumables to clean diesel emissions (e.g. AdBlue).
The Diesel segment is so tiny in NA compared to Europe, and the VW Group was one of the bigger proponents, so maybe they just picked them as an example and will follow up with the others? But then again, the American GM just got away in the ignition switch scandal by paying just 0.9bn$, and this is a scandal that outright killed allegedly 80 customers
(with up to 4.3k incidents connected to this). The EPA might demand up to 18bn$ from VW Group, just for comparison.
Not to justify what VW did, they deserve to be punished, but this seems unproportional when compared, and they should at least follow it up by investigating all manufacturers. (That is if they don't go full protectionist mode).
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The 18 Billion is the requested fine right now, but it might be lower. I'm more intrested in the criminal charges that result from this.
Also, GM recalled the cars with ignition switches before the US government became involved. VW got caught willingly programming their cars to avoid US regulations. It is the difference between liability caused by negligence due to faulty parts and full blown intent to commit a fraud in the design of the car itself.
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That's true and a good point, the intent was malicious, while in GM's case it was negligence, albeit with deadly consequences.
Just saying that measures like this are wide spread and that every manufacturer who might have committed the same fraud should be punished (I am willing to bet that most car manufactureres intentionally do something like this one way or the other).
Btw, it's good that these investigations are done, and I am glad that EPA has so strict rules. It is a shame that our EU rules are a lot less strict, and the Merkel government and our local lobby is to blame for blocking every european attempt to regulate more. I hope we get some stricter rules out of this.
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EPT
