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European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 300

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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-22 21:31:26
September 22 2015 21:29 GMT
#5981
you could observe the death count from nitrogen oxides, as studies like a b have done.

if we really want to model stuff like they do wtih radiation you'd get a much bigger number.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
September 23 2015 04:34 GMT
#5982
On September 23 2015 06:13 lord_nibbler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 23 2015 00:10 Jibba wrote:
In this case, the main pollutants are nitrous oxides (NOx) which are not only a major contributor to ozone depletion, but are also directly toxic to humans. Cheating on NOx should be considered worse than cheating on CO2, for that reason and I think it's a lot worse than Hyundai lying on fuel economy.

I concurred with you this far, but then you lost me.
Show nested quote +
I think this is akin to GM choosing to ignore its fuel tank defect that contributed to the explosions. VW made the deliberate decision to gain performance at the cost of human health, and covered it up.
It is not like the GM scandal, not even close. The GM stuff borders on negligent homicide.
Only the most hardcore environment activist would characterize air pollution as criminal assault. And if we really take these high ecological standards than the US has quite a few bigger problems than mid-sized diesel cars.

So, rules must be followed and cheating must be punished, no doubt, but don't exaggerate the issue. We are still talking about the land of SUVs, pickup trucks and 'rollin coal' here...

We're not even talking about the environmental effects, we're talking about the direct affects on human health. That's why I had the statement about CO2 and indirect damage vs. direct damage.

From wiki:
NOx reacts with ammonia, moisture, and other compounds to form nitric acid vapor and related particles. Small particles can penetrate deeply into sensitive lung tissue and damage it, causing premature death in extreme cases. Inhalation of such particles may cause or worsen respiratory diseases, such as emphysema or bronchitis, or may also aggravate existing heart disease.[10]

NOx reacts with volatile organic compounds in the presence of sunlight to form ozone. Ozone can cause adverse effects such as damage to lung tissue and reduction in lung function mostly in susceptible populations (children, elderly, asthmatics). Ozone can be transported by wind currents and cause health impacts far from the original sources. The American Lung Association estimates that nearly 50 percent of United States inhabitants live in counties that are not in ozone compliance.[11]

They're both greenhouse gasses but NOx is a particulate that can cause lung problems.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
Rassy
Profile Joined August 2010
Netherlands2308 Posts
September 23 2015 15:43 GMT
#5983
what suprises me is that this took so long to find out.
Cars are tested by magazines and tv shows all the time, and then there also the test from adac and such.
Yet no one ever saw anything weird,it baffles me.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18857 Posts
September 23 2015 15:55 GMT
#5984
Tucked away in the northeastern corner of Germany, not far from the Baltic coast, Friedland is a peaceful, rural town of about 5,000 people.

It wasn't always so quiet here. When it was part of communist East Germany, Friedland was an industrial hub, where massive processing plants turned beets into sugar and potatoes into powdered starch.

Like many others in the town, Wilfried Block, 58, used to work at the local potato starch factory. But when East and West Germany became one country again in 1990, things changed.

"The factories were shut down after reunification, and it hit us hard," Block says. "We lost 2,000 jobs in Friedland alone."

Block was lucky and found another job: He's been the mayor here since 1992. He says the town has invested heavily in regenerating itself.

"Our once gray, industrial town is now green and pleasant. But we've failed to keep people from leaving," he says.

Since reunification, more than 3,000 people, most of them young, have left Friedland in pursuit of job prospects in the West. They've left behind a diminished and aging population.

Block hopes to reverse the trend and sees a golden opportunity in the many migrants currently arriving in Germany.

This demographic shift is also typical in western Germany, but for different reasons. There are plenty of jobs and the economy is buoyant, but with one of the lowest birth rates in the world, Germany is short of workers — particularly in the skilled sectors.

Most all of Europe faces similar demographic challenges, but some analysts say that if properly handled, the current migrant crisis could be turned into the basis for future economic growth in Europe.

The upfront costs of integrating migrants will be high, the analysts acknowledge, but they argue that an influx of younger workers is essential for European countries to prosper. And given the low birthrates across the continent, those young workers will have to come from abroad.

As Friedland's job market has started to improve, there are open positions to fill. Block is eager to fill the gap left by the town's own economic emigrants with migrants from elsewhere.

"First of all, we want to do our part and help," Block says. "But we also want to encourage asylum seekers to put down roots and build a life in Friedland and help rebuild the town's economy."

While larger towns are having to cobble together makeshift shelters and tent cities, Block says Friedland has plenty of space.

"Here, there's no need to turn sports halls and schools into emergency accommodation," he says. "We've got empty apartments to offer."

But the mayor doesn't get to decide how many asylum seekers come to his town: Numbers are determined by the government, based on population size and tax revenue. This means that Friedland won't be able to fill all of its empty apartments.


A German Town In Decline Sees Refugees As Path To Revival
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
CuddlyCuteKitten
Profile Joined January 2004
Sweden2791 Posts
September 23 2015 16:05 GMT
#5985
People have discussed it for a long time. The thing is obviously a test is going to be different from real world driving, very few drivers drive optimally and real conditions (especially in cities) different from "optimal" driving. So it's been accepted that emissions in tests will differ from from the real world driving and that mpg/emissions (certainly tied together) will differ.

The only new thing here is that VW actually cheated on the test for real instead of "cheating" by having a car that performs better under the tests and has shit performance under the very specific real world circumstances that mirror the test.

I think it's good personally. It will rework vehicle testing, rework what emission limits we think are reasonable and make us see how emissions really are in our cities.

I'm personally going to wait a few days and then purchase VW stocks, not many but perhaps a few thousand euros or so.
Everyone is pissed as hell right now (Germany more than anyone else) but at the end of the day the following things will happen.

a) VW will be fined a reasonable amount by the EPA, sufficient to sting but not bad enough to really hurt or cripple the company.
b) US government will make sure that's the end of it economically in the US
c) EU and other countries will do there tests but it won't amount to much compared to the EPA fine.
d) Emission standards will be reworked.

The reasons for this is that VW is THE german company. Sure the US are really trigger happy when it comes to foreign companies and right now Germany are angry as hell at VW but in the end Germany won't accept completely unreasonable punishment and and mayor economic damage. Germany has soaked up a lot of shit from the US recently without complaining and is in a position to really pay it back if they want to, I can't see the US government crippling their flagship company in the auto industry no less.
Emission standards are also to different and no doubt other car makers will have similar emissions except that they didn't cheat on the test.
Unity, support, family, and kneecapping bitches.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 23 2015 16:08 GMT
#5986
Literally to big to fail or be punished. The amazing arguments of the current era. Shit we would go to jail for if we did it to each other.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
September 23 2015 16:12 GMT
#5987
VW will be harshly punished. it won't fail, but it will be punished
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-23 16:19:24
September 23 2015 16:15 GMT
#5988
On September 24 2015 00:55 farvacola wrote:
Show nested quote +
Tucked away in the northeastern corner of Germany, not far from the Baltic coast, Friedland is a peaceful, rural town of about 5,000 people.

It wasn't always so quiet here. When it was part of communist East Germany, Friedland was an industrial hub, where massive processing plants turned beets into sugar and potatoes into powdered starch.

Like many others in the town, Wilfried Block, 58, used to work at the local potato starch factory. But when East and West Germany became one country again in 1990, things changed.

"The factories were shut down after reunification, and it hit us hard," Block says. "We lost 2,000 jobs in Friedland alone."

Block was lucky and found another job: He's been the mayor here since 1992. He says the town has invested heavily in regenerating itself.

"Our once gray, industrial town is now green and pleasant. But we've failed to keep people from leaving," he says.

Since reunification, more than 3,000 people, most of them young, have left Friedland in pursuit of job prospects in the West. They've left behind a diminished and aging population.

Block hopes to reverse the trend and sees a golden opportunity in the many migrants currently arriving in Germany.

This demographic shift is also typical in western Germany, but for different reasons. There are plenty of jobs and the economy is buoyant, but with one of the lowest birth rates in the world, Germany is short of workers — particularly in the skilled sectors.

Most all of Europe faces similar demographic challenges, but some analysts say that if properly handled, the current migrant crisis could be turned into the basis for future economic growth in Europe.

The upfront costs of integrating migrants will be high, the analysts acknowledge, but they argue that an influx of younger workers is essential for European countries to prosper. And given the low birthrates across the continent, those young workers will have to come from abroad.

As Friedland's job market has started to improve, there are open positions to fill. Block is eager to fill the gap left by the town's own economic emigrants with migrants from elsewhere.

"First of all, we want to do our part and help," Block says. "But we also want to encourage asylum seekers to put down roots and build a life in Friedland and help rebuild the town's economy."

While larger towns are having to cobble together makeshift shelters and tent cities, Block says Friedland has plenty of space.

"Here, there's no need to turn sports halls and schools into emergency accommodation," he says. "We've got empty apartments to offer."

But the mayor doesn't get to decide how many asylum seekers come to his town: Numbers are determined by the government, based on population size and tax revenue. This means that Friedland won't be able to fill all of its empty apartments.


A German Town In Decline Sees Refugees As Path To Revival


Ironically this situation is worst in East Germany, pretty much every rural or suburban area suffers heavily from emigration. Sadly these regions at the same time oppose immigration the most and would rather live without jobs and see their communities decay rather than accept that their xenophobia is silly.
arbiter_md
Profile Joined February 2008
Moldova1219 Posts
September 23 2015 16:21 GMT
#5989
I really hope they will get punished to a point of declaring default, or at least being excluded from sales in USA for a long time. This bullshit of "too big to fail" has to stop at some point. It's our health and environment that is being trashed just because something is big enough.
The copyright of this post belongs solely to me. Nobody else, not teamliquid, not greetech and not even blizzard have any share of this copyright. You can copy, distribute, use in commercial purposes the content of this post or parts of it freely.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-23 16:24:24
September 23 2015 16:24 GMT
#5990
they were probably threatened with a ban from u.s. markets in exchange for confession tbh. all of tehse regulatory agencies are so understaffed and underfunded, some of this fine should be going to the EPA for funding lol.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 23 2015 16:33 GMT
#5991
On September 24 2015 01:24 oneofthem wrote:
they were probably threatened with a ban from u.s. markets in exchange for confession tbh. all of tehse regulatory agencies are so understaffed and underfunded, some of this fine should be going to the EPA for funding lol.

We have the Republicans to thank for that. But I think this time they won't be able to come to the defense of business and the "free market".
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
CuddlyCuteKitten
Profile Joined January 2004
Sweden2791 Posts
September 23 2015 16:33 GMT
#5992
On September 24 2015 01:21 arbiter_md wrote:
I really hope they will get punished to a point of declaring default, or at least being excluded from sales in USA for a long time. This bullshit of "too big to fail" has to stop at some point. It's our health and environment that is being trashed just because something is big enough.


You realize the response would be to ban some major US tech company or something from the EU market?
It would never stand because a) it's not like other cars are so much better including US ones and b) emission standards are very different so the nOX values that were way over the limit in the US are probably legal or close to legal in Europe, thus a default because of US fines would be seen (rightfully so probably) as economic warfare.

Basically GM didn't get banned from US markets for the fuel tank thing so there's no way VW will be for emissions or Europe will get pissed. And that's pretty much how trade wars are started.
Unity, support, family, and kneecapping bitches.
ACrow
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany6583 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-23 16:46:39
September 23 2015 16:40 GMT
#5993
On September 24 2015 01:21 arbiter_md wrote:
I really hope they will get punished to a point of declaring default, or at least being excluded from sales in USA for a long time. This bullshit of "too big to fail" has to stop at some point. It's our health and environment that is being trashed just because something is big enough.

Unlike banks, there are a lot of jobs - many of them requiring only low qualification - behind this. The VW conglomerate alone employs 600k people, put a lot more on top for the supplying industry. Doesn't justify cheating on NOx emissions, but this is really blown out of proportion tbh; NOx is sure dangerous for the lungs, but it is also a highly fleeting gas, so it will be a problem only in highly urban areas with lots of smog. I daresay the best way to actually fight this is to plan the cities/traffic better, add more city parks/forests and plan for better public transportation. It also has an impact as greenhouse gas, but if you critique that, you should take into consideration that at the same time a diesel emits a lot less carbondioxide than a Otto motor running on gasoline, it's a tradeoff.

Again this is not to justify, just to put it into relation. I think this gets way overblown. An evil mind could also mention that the US car makers never invested into diesel and the EPA regulations target NOx (=being mainly a diesel problem) specifically a lot more harshly than carbondioxide. I hope the responsible persons at VW get persecuted for fraud, but wishing VW to having to default is an overreaction.
Get off my lawn, young punks
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 23 2015 16:40 GMT
#5994
On September 24 2015 01:33 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2015 01:21 arbiter_md wrote:
I really hope they will get punished to a point of declaring default, or at least being excluded from sales in USA for a long time. This bullshit of "too big to fail" has to stop at some point. It's our health and environment that is being trashed just because something is big enough.


You realize the response would be to ban some major US tech company or something from the EU market?
It would never stand because a) it's not like other cars are so much better including US ones and b) emission standards are very different so the nOX values that were way over the limit in the US are probably legal or close to legal in Europe, thus a default because of US fines would be seen (rightfully so probably) as economic warfare.

Basically GM didn't get banned from US markets for the fuel tank thing so there's no way VW will be for emissions or Europe will get pissed. And that's pretty much how trade wars are started.

Yes. But the problem is that the company deliberately committed fraud to dodge another governments regulations. And they did so thinking that if they were caught that the German government would defend them in that fashion.

So its will come down to which relationship does the German government value more, the relationship with the US government or VW? And are they willing to do this for the next German company that decides to commit fraud to dodge US regulations? Are they willing to do the bidding of companies that position themselves as key to the economy so they can ignore the law?
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
ACrow
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany6583 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-23 16:44:06
September 23 2015 16:43 GMT
#5995
sry, mispost
Get off my lawn, young punks
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
September 23 2015 16:51 GMT
#5996
On September 24 2015 01:33 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2015 01:21 arbiter_md wrote:
I really hope they will get punished to a point of declaring default, or at least being excluded from sales in USA for a long time. This bullshit of "too big to fail" has to stop at some point. It's our health and environment that is being trashed just because something is big enough.


You realize the response would be to ban some major US tech company or something from the EU market?
It would never stand because a) it's not like other cars are so much better including US ones and b) emission standards are very different so the nOX values that were way over the limit in the US are probably legal or close to legal in Europe, thus a default because of US fines would be seen (rightfully so probably) as economic warfare.

Basically GM didn't get banned from US markets for the fuel tank thing so there's no way VW will be for emissions or Europe will get pissed. And that's pretty much how trade wars are started.

a gross and intentional fraud like this will get VW punished, and they probably will get rekt harder in europe.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22373 Posts
September 23 2015 16:51 GMT
#5997
Should VW be destroyed over this? No
Should those responsible be prosecuted for it? Yes.

VW didn't cheat/lie to avoid regulations. Managers/designers ect did. They are the people you should be targeting.
You don't stop things like this by fining a company for a Billion. You stop it buy putting those responsible behind bars and by making sure the next guy to think of it knows that he runs a serious risk of having his life ruined for another few bucks in an already good life.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 23 2015 16:55 GMT
#5998
Agreed. The people who run the company and everyone knowingly assisted in committing the fraud should be charged. If people has to personally serve time or were fined for this behavior, they wouldn't sign off on it.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
September 23 2015 16:56 GMT
#5999
actually fining a company for a few billion will stop some of this behavior.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22373 Posts
September 23 2015 16:59 GMT
#6000
On September 24 2015 01:56 oneofthem wrote:
actually fining a company for a few billion will stop some of this behavior.

Why? The manager collected his paychecks. He resigns and moves off to a new job or retires.
People are perfectly fine with risking the profits of a business if they personally are not effected.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
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