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On September 24 2015 01:59 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2015 01:56 oneofthem wrote:
actually fining a company for a few billion will stop some of this behavior. Why? The manager collected his paychecks. He resigns and moves off to a new job or retires. People are perfectly fine with risking the profits of a business if they personally are not effected.
You are both right. There is a set amount of money in fines that puts VW into the deep into red, which would help. And jail time would also help since managers and other folks who made this call need to not walk away untouched.
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On September 24 2015 01:40 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2015 01:33 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:On September 24 2015 01:21 arbiter_md wrote:
I really hope they will get punished to a point of declaring default, or at least being excluded from sales in USA for a long time. This bullshit of "too big to fail" has to stop at some point. It's our health and environment that is being trashed just because something is big enough. You realize the response would be to ban some major US tech company or something from the EU market? It would never stand because a) it's not like other cars are so much better including US ones and b) emission standards are very different so the nOX values that were way over the limit in the US are probably legal or close to legal in Europe, thus a default because of US fines would be seen (rightfully so probably) as economic warfare. Basically GM didn't get banned from US markets for the fuel tank thing so there's no way VW will be for emissions or Europe will get pissed. And that's pretty much how trade wars are started. Yes. But the problem is that the company deliberately committed fraud to dodge another governments regulations. And they did so thinking that if they were caught that the German government would defend them in that fashion. So its will come down to which relationship does the German government value more, the relationship with the US government or VW? And are they willing to do this for the next German company that decides to commit fraud to dodge US regulations? Are they willing to do the bidding of companies that position themselves as key to the economy so they can ignore the law?
Before I start replying I would like to say 2 things.
I very much want VW to be severely punished and I'm pretty sure all Europeans and all Germans want that too. It's pretty disgusting to down right LIE about the environment.
And I very much agree that jailtime for the people involved would be a much better solution than fines. Because if you don't wreck the company it's basically just a calculation on how much you gain from cheating versus the fine you get.
Anyway.
As said above, nOX emissions caps are super low in the US while CO2 caps are lower so you can still drive huge SUV's without problems. Is this because it favors US car makers for not making diesels? Perhaps, perhaps not.
The US and Germany has a very close relationship. But usually Germany ends up with the short end of the stick. This is just on the top of my head:
1) Spying scandals on basically everything from Merkel to private German companies.
2) Sanctions on Russia hurts Europe and Germany a lot more economically than they do the US.
3) Meddling (by everyone on different sides to be fair) in the middle east has EU and Germany in particular facing a huge refuge crisis.
4) Having to push forward a very unpopular new trade deal.
I'm not saying the above things are wrong to do, just that it hurts one ally a lot more than the other one.
So basically Germany is in a rough position right now and have reasons not to happy super happy with the US at the moment. I think the question is the other way around, how much does the US government value their relationship with Germany. Because 295.000 of those VW jobs are in Germany and you would be wrecking the company over emission standards that are basically legal in the EU.
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Yes. Because they sold the cars in the US and made them to be sold in the US. So VW can get slapped around, fined and maybe the people who work for them don't get a bonus this year. The place I work for did some dumb stuff I wasn't involved with and I didn't make as much that year. Life is unfair like that. And of course no one is saying the goal should be to bankrupt the VW. But I don't want to see them make a profit this year.
And full disclosure, my mother owns a VW diesel and is now having to talk to attorneys to see if she should join a class action or file independently. And the 1 year old car is worthless now(literally unable to sell it)
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From what I understand it should be possible to simply reprogram the car. It will use a bit more fuel and perhaps have a little less power in certain circumstances. Worst case scenario they would probably switch the filter (to a worse one) as well.
It's not like the car is likely to explode at any given moment. It's hardly worthless because of this.
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On September 24 2015 01:15 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2015 00:55 farvacola wrote:Tucked away in the northeastern corner of Germany, not far from the Baltic coast, Friedland is a peaceful, rural town of about 5,000 people.
It wasn't always so quiet here. When it was part of communist East Germany, Friedland was an industrial hub, where massive processing plants turned beets into sugar and potatoes into powdered starch.
Like many others in the town, Wilfried Block, 58, used to work at the local potato starch factory. But when East and West Germany became one country again in 1990, things changed.
"The factories were shut down after reunification, and it hit us hard," Block says. "We lost 2,000 jobs in Friedland alone."
Block was lucky and found another job: He's been the mayor here since 1992. He says the town has invested heavily in regenerating itself.
"Our once gray, industrial town is now green and pleasant. But we've failed to keep people from leaving," he says.
Since reunification, more than 3,000 people, most of them young, have left Friedland in pursuit of job prospects in the West. They've left behind a diminished and aging population.
Block hopes to reverse the trend and sees a golden opportunity in the many migrants currently arriving in Germany.
This demographic shift is also typical in western Germany, but for different reasons. There are plenty of jobs and the economy is buoyant, but with one of the lowest birth rates in the world, Germany is short of workers — particularly in the skilled sectors.
Most all of Europe faces similar demographic challenges, but some analysts say that if properly handled, the current migrant crisis could be turned into the basis for future economic growth in Europe.
The upfront costs of integrating migrants will be high, the analysts acknowledge, but they argue that an influx of younger workers is essential for European countries to prosper. And given the low birthrates across the continent, those young workers will have to come from abroad.
As Friedland's job market has started to improve, there are open positions to fill. Block is eager to fill the gap left by the town's own economic emigrants with migrants from elsewhere.
"First of all, we want to do our part and help," Block says. "But we also want to encourage asylum seekers to put down roots and build a life in Friedland and help rebuild the town's economy."
While larger towns are having to cobble together makeshift shelters and tent cities, Block says Friedland has plenty of space.
"Here, there's no need to turn sports halls and schools into emergency accommodation," he says. "We've got empty apartments to offer."
But the mayor doesn't get to decide how many asylum seekers come to his town: Numbers are determined by the government, based on population size and tax revenue. This means that Friedland won't be able to fill all of its empty apartments. A German Town In Decline Sees Refugees As Path To Revival Ironically this situation is worst in East Germany, pretty much every rural or suburban area suffers heavily from emigration. Sadly these regions at the same time oppose immigration the most and would rather live without jobs and see their communities decay rather than accept that their xenophobia is silly.
If the image painted in that article is true then how will you explain that places like Friedland weren't revitalized by Eastern European immigrants after 2004 but will be revitilized by Middle Eastern refugees now?
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On September 24 2015 02:30 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
From what I understand it should be possible to simply reprogram the car. It will use a bit more fuel and perhaps have a little less power in certain circumstances. Worst case scenario they would probably switch the filter (to a worse one) as well.
It's not like the car is likely to explode at any given moment. It's hardly worthless because of this.
That doesn't change that the value of the car has been significantly decreased. And we are not sure it can even pass inspection in our state. If it can't, it is a worthless vehicle.
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On September 24 2015 02:32 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2015 02:30 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
From what I understand it should be possible to simply reprogram the car. It will use a bit more fuel and perhaps have a little less power in certain circumstances. Worst case scenario they would probably switch the filter (to a worse one) as well.
It's not like the car is likely to explode at any given moment. It's hardly worthless because of this. That doesn't change that the value of the car has been significantly decreased. And we are not sure it can even pass inspection in our state. If it can't, it is a worthless vehicle.
as far as I can tell they simply used less AdBlue (called Diesel Exhaust Fluid in the US according to google) in normal driving mode because that leads to less time at the workshop for the owner and less costs from pieces they (the owner of the car) would have to replace over time.
It stayed within emission limits for the tests after all. How much that change in program changes the value I don't know
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On September 24 2015 02:32 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2015 02:30 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
From what I understand it should be possible to simply reprogram the car. It will use a bit more fuel and perhaps have a little less power in certain circumstances. Worst case scenario they would probably switch the filter (to a worse one) as well.
It's not like the car is likely to explode at any given moment. It's hardly worthless because of this. That doesn't change that the value of the car has been significantly decreased. And we are not sure it can even pass inspection in our state. If it can't, it is a worthless vehicle.
First of all we need to wait to see how big a performance hit the cars will actually take before we know exactly how big the value decrease would be. Secondly it could be argued (and probably will be in a lawsuit) that most of the value decrease is simply because of emotional impact and not because of performance input.
If VW can solve the issues by bumping the car up one tax bracket in carbon and particle emissions and losing 1 % performance it will still be a high performing and very modern car. They will likely give some kind of minor settlement for that.
No doubt the resale value in the US will still be affected but I have a hard time seeing anyone win that case convincingly. And one the legal tours are through the car will be more or less obsolete anyway.
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On September 24 2015 02:40 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2015 02:32 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2015 02:30 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
From what I understand it should be possible to simply reprogram the car. It will use a bit more fuel and perhaps have a little less power in certain circumstances. Worst case scenario they would probably switch the filter (to a worse one) as well.
It's not like the car is likely to explode at any given moment. It's hardly worthless because of this. That doesn't change that the value of the car has been significantly decreased. And we are not sure it can even pass inspection in our state. If it can't, it is a worthless vehicle. First of all we need to wait to see how big a performance hit the cars will actually take before we know exactly how big the value decrease would be. Secondly it could be argued (and probably will be in a lawsuit) that most of the value decrease is simply because of emotional impact and not because of performance input. If VW can solve the issues by bumping the car up one tax bracket in carbon and particle emissions and losing 1 % performance it will still be a high performing and very modern car. They will likely give some kind of minor settlement for that. No doubt the resale value in the US will still be affected but I have a hard time seeing anyone win that case convincingly. And one the legal tours are through the car will be more or less obsolete anyway.
As someone who works in the US legal field, you are 100% incorrect. VW is fucked on so many levels in US courts. My state alone has a specific law for deceptive business practices and just the act of selling the car is a violation. I have seen my clients lit up for 100% honest mistakes and the judges still hit them pretty hard deceptive business practices. They are going to salt the earth with company that knowingly and willingly violated that law.
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To sum it up:
Diesels and Gas (Benzin) cars are allowed to emit the same amount of NOx, there is no difference in the regulation (I think for Califonria and some states: 2mg per mile)
In Germany and in Europe, there are different rules, Diesels are allowed to emit way more NOx here and also more then Gas (Benzin) cars (I think around 8mg per km or even more).
The questioned engine "2,0l TDI" , a 2 liter diesel engine, used by alot of cars of VW, Audi and other brands of them, uses AdBlue (urea) to reduce the emit NOx by ALOT. But there are 2 problems: While AdBlue is not that expensive (3€ per 1000km was said in german media), the technologie is way more expensive to build in the car: Around 1000$ or € per car, thats alot in the section of medium or small cars. And on top of that, to reduce the emit of NOx for the rules of California, the cars have to use way more AdBlue then their tank holds. AdBlue cars usually only get new AdBlue when they are in a workshop for service. VW and other companys dont want their customers to have to add AdBlue like oil or diesel.
So there are two different ways the software worked by VW:
For AdBlue cars, the software detected the test routine and thus used WAY MORE AdBlue during the test then under normal circumstences, we talk about the possibility of about x20 of the AdBlue usage.
For cars not using AdBlue / urea to reduce the NOx amount, they use normal exhaust gases recirculation + NOx saving catalysts. But these one can become "full" during normal drive and have to be regenerated. To reduce NOx emissions under California rules, they reduce the motor power while they burn more fuel (using more exhaust gases recirculation) thus making diesel more inefficient with using their fuel.
What will happen for customers in the USA:
AdBlue cars will use more AdBlue and they have to refil AdBlue more often with a new software using more AdBlue.
Non AdBlue cars might get a rework thus using more fuel with less power. I think it is most likelsy that VW will pay these customers alot of money or give them the ability to swap for a VW gas (benzin) using car. Or maybe VW says "fuck, we were never succesfull in USA, lets fuck this shit and leave the country, who cares about image". (unlikely)
But for the US market, "clean" diesel is dead. period. Diesel was never used much and now, with low gas prizes and this VW shit (and most likely other companys do that too), good bye Diesel in the USA. And such, no Dieselowner will be able to resell. As you got alot more rights to fight for money at your curts, customers in the USA should do one of their infamous class action.
For VW: As a German I am ashamed, but not suprised. German car companys just say "Arbeitsplätze" (jobs) and the gouvernment does alot for them. German gouvernment is infamous for stopping or hindering new, harsher emission-laws. Not only for NOx, but also CO2. German car companys build great cars, but they also tend to either make the rules or let the gouvernment help them with the rules. As VW belongs to 25% the german federal state "Niedersachsen" and thus the state, it is more then just a company in Germany.
But as a German I am also very much suprised: GMs starter lock killed over 100 people in the USA while also GM fighted to suppress the truth about their starter locks. And they just payed only 900M $ people seem to care not so much. Dont get me wrong, I like that VW gets a harsh penalty by the USA as they deserve it and hopefully it will change alot in Wolfsburg, at least in the heads of the VW-leaders and maybe maybe also in our gourvernment. But I still dont understand how GM could only pay this bit and have almost no impact on their standing within the customers, while VW is practically burned and burried.
Sorry for the long not so well written text, my English is not "the yellow from egg", like we would say in Germany.
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An intresting question is if VW cars will have to pass the emission standards in a normal EPA test without the cheat or if they will have to pass them in the kind of driving test the university did under normal conditions where they released 40x the value.
Because thats going to be an extreme difference.
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"I very much want VW to be severely punished and I'm pretty sure all Europeans and all Germans want that too. It's pretty disgusting to down right LIE about the environment."
I do not want vw to be punished at all. And people lie about the environment all the time. The airline industry is another big offender,their emissions do not even get measured. And then all those old cars that drive around in india,china and rusia. In the grand sceme of things this is nothing.
Most people who buy a car do not care much about emissions,specially people who buy a diesel car. Thoose are already more polluting then octan 98 or 95 engines. In the Netherlands the only reason to buy such a car was because you got a discount on your taxes if you buy a low emission car.
If you want to do something for the environment you drive a hybrid.
Vw still makes good and reliable cars.
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On September 24 2015 03:48 Rassy wrote:
"I very much want VW to be severely punished and I'm pretty sure all Europeans and all Germans want that too. It's pretty disgusting to down right LIE about the environment."
I do not want vw to be punished at all. And people lie about the environment all the time. The airline industry is another big offender,their emissions do not even get measured. And then all those old cars that drive around in india,china and rusia. In the grand sceme of things this is nothing.
Most people who buy a car do not care much about emissions,specially people who buy a diesel car. Thoose are already more polluting then octan 98 or 95 engines. In the Netherlands the only reason to buy such a car was because you got a discount on your taxes if you buy a low emission car.
If you want to do something for the environment you drive a hybrid.
Vw still makes good and reliable cars.
it is not about some climate gases.
NOx make people sick. Directly.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
how specific are you talking? for intentional, deliberate fraud like this they can probably get at individuals, but a huge corporate fine like this is still a huge lesson to not do this stuff again.
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I like saving money. Since prices should tank, should I buy one now or do you think they'll remain low for the next years make?
Ignoring the moral issue here of course.
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just buy the whole company and make yourself one. it'll probably be cheaper.
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The fine differential between the GM case and the VW case really just comes down to VW's lack of connections/spending in Washington. For that, you can blame the Clinton-era DoJ. The Microsoft Anti-trust case set off a wave of corporate lobbying that's never stopped. There's a reason Google is the single highest spender in Washington lobbying. (I believe the stat was that WalMart didn't have any lobbying in 1995. That's changed a lot.)
So, hitting VW with a fine is probably appropriate, though the current one is way too high. At the same time, I'm really curious if the case will hold up. Knowing government regulation writing, it's very possible VW found a loophole through most of them. They do pass the tests, after all. It's just the rest of the time. But it's going to be drug out in court for ages.
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On September 23 2015 00:18 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2015 23:09 Velr wrote:Well... If it took them 6 years to notice this, it was probably not all dumb  . I know your comment is in jest but the EPA did a pretty good job in this case. The cheating was only caught through live drive testing and it was actually initially discovered by public university researchers (West Virginia University.) The EPA, like most regulatory agencies around the world, is fairly small and extremely underfunded, so there's no way they can perform that level of testing on all vehicles. I'm honestly a bit surprised how quickly they came out, from when the first university report came out.
The West Virginia University only started the investigation due to prior research by the ICCT branch in Germany. Otherwise the truth might have never come to light.
It is noteworthy that a BMW diesel car passed the test, not all diesel cars are rigged like that.
Moreover, it isn't actually a new problem. Volvo and Caterpillar were caught rigging their trucks in a similar way in 1998, which is interesting, as trucks emit way more NOx in the US than cars.
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On September 24 2015 02:56 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2015 02:40 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:On September 24 2015 02:32 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2015 02:30 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
From what I understand it should be possible to simply reprogram the car. It will use a bit more fuel and perhaps have a little less power in certain circumstances. Worst case scenario they would probably switch the filter (to a worse one) as well.
It's not like the car is likely to explode at any given moment. It's hardly worthless because of this. That doesn't change that the value of the car has been significantly decreased. And we are not sure it can even pass inspection in our state. If it can't, it is a worthless vehicle. First of all we need to wait to see how big a performance hit the cars will actually take before we know exactly how big the value decrease would be. Secondly it could be argued (and probably will be in a lawsuit) that most of the value decrease is simply because of emotional impact and not because of performance input. If VW can solve the issues by bumping the car up one tax bracket in carbon and particle emissions and losing 1 % performance it will still be a high performing and very modern car. They will likely give some kind of minor settlement for that. No doubt the resale value in the US will still be affected but I have a hard time seeing anyone win that case convincingly. And one the legal tours are through the car will be more or less obsolete anyway. As someone who works in the US legal field, you are 100% incorrect. VW is fucked on so many levels in US courts. My state alone has a specific law for deceptive business practices and just the act of selling the car is a violation. I have seen my clients lit up for 100% honest mistakes and the judges still hit them pretty hard deceptive business practices. They are going to salt the earth with company that knowingly and willingly violated that law.
A big case like this becomes much more about politics than it is about the law. I am not big fan of conspiracy teories but it might be that the time is not accidental. Germany is very vulnerable right now beacuse of Greeca and migrant crisis and it will be much harder for them to defend their company.
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On September 24 2015 16:53 Silvanel wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2015 02:56 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2015 02:40 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:On September 24 2015 02:32 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2015 02:30 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
From what I understand it should be possible to simply reprogram the car. It will use a bit more fuel and perhaps have a little less power in certain circumstances. Worst case scenario they would probably switch the filter (to a worse one) as well.
It's not like the car is likely to explode at any given moment. It's hardly worthless because of this. That doesn't change that the value of the car has been significantly decreased. And we are not sure it can even pass inspection in our state. If it can't, it is a worthless vehicle. First of all we need to wait to see how big a performance hit the cars will actually take before we know exactly how big the value decrease would be. Secondly it could be argued (and probably will be in a lawsuit) that most of the value decrease is simply because of emotional impact and not because of performance input. If VW can solve the issues by bumping the car up one tax bracket in carbon and particle emissions and losing 1 % performance it will still be a high performing and very modern car. They will likely give some kind of minor settlement for that. No doubt the resale value in the US will still be affected but I have a hard time seeing anyone win that case convincingly. And one the legal tours are through the car will be more or less obsolete anyway. As someone who works in the US legal field, you are 100% incorrect. VW is fucked on so many levels in US courts. My state alone has a specific law for deceptive business practices and just the act of selling the car is a violation. I have seen my clients lit up for 100% honest mistakes and the judges still hit them pretty hard deceptive business practices. They are going to salt the earth with company that knowingly and willingly violated that law. A big case like this becomes much more about politics than it is about the law. I am not big fan of conspiracy teories but it might be that the time is not accidental. Germany is very vulnerable right now beacuse of Greeca and migrant crisis and it will be much harder for them to defend their company.
1) Take fines and legal cost for VW
2) End sanctions against Russia
3)...
4) Immense profit while torpedoing US intrest.
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EPT
