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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On July 01 2015 19:45 mahrgell wrote:
With that new letter, that referendum makes so much sense, yeah!
But honest question, maybe some Greek can answer me: Why is Tsipras so obsessed with that island tax reduction?
Such a tax reduction is normal for most island territories because of higher cost of living (because transport of goods or providing water/electricity is not cheap for small islands).
But you're asking for the political motive, which is this: ANEL (the right wing junior partner in the coalition) has this issue as their own red line. To keep ANEL on board, gotta deliver this.
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So why would Tsipras turn around so quickly? Was there inside pressure from his cabinet/party? Did a not very bright future if the 'No' wins become apparent? Were they expecting the 'Yes' to win and freaked out over polls the 'No' is ahead?
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On July 01 2015 19:59 warding wrote:
So why would Tsipras turn around so quickly? Was there inside pressure from his cabinet/party? Did a not very bright future if the 'No' wins become apparent? Were they expecting the 'Yes' to win and freaked out over polls the 'No' is ahead?
Pick any ones you like: Incompetence, pressure from inside, pressure from outside, stupidity, sudden realization that the drachma would be catastrophic, sudden realization that going back to the drachma is a possibility, sudden realization that Schaeuble and Germany really don't give a rat's ass about preserving the indissolubility of the Eurozone, complete lack of preparation for alternative scenarios (this would go under the general incompetence label I suppose), sudden realization that the banks won't even last till the referendum and you don't even have enough paper to print out IOUs in the middle of the month... or still living in some other world where this all somehow still makes sense.
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On July 01 2015 19:26 Salteador Neo wrote:
From today on in Spain, public demonstrations are illegal unless they are previously accepted by the Government (even if they are pacific). Also tweeting about them is illegal and will be fined (for example tweeting about Greenpeace acts).
Illegal immigrants will be sent back to their countries right away. They already did this, but now it will be legal.
Also uploading movies in Spain is now illegal.
Partido Popular moving towards progress as usual... ffs.
I don't know the details but I hope these laws are in accordance with Article 10 and Article 11 of the European Convention on Human Rights:
+ Show Spoiler +"Article 10 – Freedom of expression
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.
2. The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary."
"Article 11 – Freedom of assembly and association
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and to freedom of association with others, including the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.
2. No restrictions shall be placed on the exercise of these rights other than such as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others. This article shall not prevent the imposition of lawful restrictions on the exercise of these rights by members of the armed forces, of the police or of the administration of the State."
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On July 01 2015 20:17 Banaora wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2015 19:26 Salteador Neo wrote:
From today on in Spain, public demonstrations are illegal unless they are previously accepted by the Government (even if they are pacific). Also tweeting about them is illegal and will be fined (for example tweeting about Greenpeace acts).
Illegal immigrants will be sent back to their countries right away. They already did this, but now it will be legal.
Also uploading movies in Spain is now illegal.
Partido Popular moving towards progress as usual... ffs. I don't know the details but I hope these laws are in accordance with Article 10 and Article 11 of the European Convention on Human Rights: + Show Spoiler +"Article 10 – Freedom of expression
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.
2. The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary."
"Article 11 – Freedom of assembly and association
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and to freedom of association with others, including the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.
2. No restrictions shall be placed on the exercise of these rights other than such as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others. This article shall not prevent the imposition of lawful restrictions on the exercise of these rights by members of the armed forces, of the police or of the administration of the State."
Over here in Belgium demonstrations are illegal if they have not been approved by the person responsible at the town hall of the city the demonstration will take place in. This is largely due to safety concerns (all demonstrations get police presence), and we have not yet received any complaints from the EU about it. Granted, pretty much every demostration gets approved, and people can freely post stuff on twitter, FB, or other social media.
People who participate in rallies that have not been approved risk being detained and/or fined.
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On July 01 2015 19:59 warding wrote:
So why would Tsipras turn around so quickly? Was there inside pressure from his cabinet/party? Did a not very bright future if the 'No' wins become apparent? Were they expecting the 'Yes' to win and freaked out over polls the 'No' is ahead?
One explanation might be that his approval rating tanked from more than 60% to less than 50% after the capital controls.
Her polls show support for Tsipras falling. His approval rating is just under 50 percent today; two weeks ago, it was more than 60 percent.
source
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On July 01 2015 20:38 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2015 19:59 warding wrote:
So why would Tsipras turn around so quickly? Was there inside pressure from his cabinet/party? Did a not very bright future if the 'No' wins become apparent? Were they expecting the 'Yes' to win and freaked out over polls the 'No' is ahead? One explanation might be that his approval rating tanked from more than 60% to less than 50% after the capital controls. Show nested quote +Her polls show support for Tsipras falling. His approval rating is just under 50 percent today; two weeks ago, it was more than 60 percent. source
The situation in Greece is a little more dire than this. You don't surrender your political career (this is what just happened, make no mistake) just because your approval rating tanked a little bit. Tsipras is scheduled to address the nation shortly, we will see.
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On July 01 2015 20:17 Banaora wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2015 19:26 Salteador Neo wrote:
From today on in Spain, public demonstrations are illegal unless they are previously accepted by the Government (even if they are pacific). Also tweeting about them is illegal and will be fined (for example tweeting about Greenpeace acts).
Illegal immigrants will be sent back to their countries right away. They already did this, but now it will be legal.
Also uploading movies in Spain is now illegal.
Partido Popular moving towards progress as usual... ffs. I don't know the details but I hope these laws are in accordance with Article 10 and Article 11 of the European Convention on Human Rights: + Show Spoiler +"Article 10 – Freedom of expression
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.
2. The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary."
"Article 11 – Freedom of assembly and association
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and to freedom of association with others, including the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.
2. No restrictions shall be placed on the exercise of these rights other than such as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others. This article shall not prevent the imposition of lawful restrictions on the exercise of these rights by members of the armed forces, of the police or of the administration of the State."
The need for a declaration prior to a public demonstration has existed since like ... forever in France and is clearly in accord with European convention. The reasoning is that :
Any large gathering needs some organization: blocking streets and redirecting traffic, alerting local population that their street won't be usable, etc. This justifies the need for a declaration (72h before the demonstration at least).
A demonstration may trigger violence and end up in riots. This justifies rejecting some of the requests. This was the case in january when a demonstration "France against Islam: Islamists go home" planned in Paris areas where the muslim community is the largest were banned.
Agreed, people need to keep an eye on what demonstrations are rejected and on what grounds, but the law itself isn't that bad.
There was a debate in ?2010? when they added that wearing a mask/balaclava to hide your face in any demonstration was banned as a sign of intending to do wrong and not be recognized.
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On July 01 2015 20:50 Oshuy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2015 20:17 Banaora wrote:On July 01 2015 19:26 Salteador Neo wrote:
From today on in Spain, public demonstrations are illegal unless they are previously accepted by the Government (even if they are pacific). Also tweeting about them is illegal and will be fined (for example tweeting about Greenpeace acts).
Illegal immigrants will be sent back to their countries right away. They already did this, but now it will be legal.
Also uploading movies in Spain is now illegal.
Partido Popular moving towards progress as usual... ffs. I don't know the details but I hope these laws are in accordance with Article 10 and Article 11 of the European Convention on Human Rights: + Show Spoiler +"Article 10 – Freedom of expression
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.
2. The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary."
"Article 11 – Freedom of assembly and association
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and to freedom of association with others, including the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.
2. No restrictions shall be placed on the exercise of these rights other than such as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others. This article shall not prevent the imposition of lawful restrictions on the exercise of these rights by members of the armed forces, of the police or of the administration of the State." The need for a declaration prior to a public demonstration has existed since like ... forever in France and is clearly in accord with European convention. The reasoning is that : Any large gathering needs some organization: blocking streets and redirecting traffic, alerting local population that their street won't be usable, etc. This justifies the need for a declaration (72h before the demonstration at least). A demonstration may trigger violence and end up in riots. This justifies rejecting some of the requests. This was the case in january when a demonstration "France against Islam: Islamists go home" planned in Paris areas where the muslim community is the largest were banned. Agreed, people need to keep an eye on what demonstrations are rejected and on what grounds, but the law itself isn't that bad.
Like I said I don't know the details of the law in Spain. In Germany it is similar in that you have to register a demonstration, but if the administration says no, you can go to court.
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On July 01 2015 19:26 Salteador Neo wrote:
From today on in Spain, public demonstrations are illegal unless they are previously accepted by the Government (even if they are pacific). Also tweeting about them is illegal and will be fined (for example tweeting about Greenpeace acts).
Illegal immigrants will be sent back to their countries right away. They already did this, but now it will be legal.
Also uploading movies in Spain is now illegal.
Partido Popular moving towards progress as usual... ffs.
Oh, you can't even take pictures of the policeman while they are "protecting" demonstrators. They had been pushing for this crap since the 15M movement and Podemos spawned from it.
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Interesting speech by Merkel in front of the Bundestag today. She explicitly expressed her sympathy with the Greek people and emphasized the legitimacy of the referendum. It is also said that she crossed some red lines during the negotiations in order to come to a mutual solution. All of this isn't very well liked in her party.
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From what we saw on the previous page, linked by Taguchi, it doesn't look like much would have been crossed on their side to me. :/
Sympathy, meh. Actions are greater than words, especially from politicians.
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On July 01 2015 20:50 Oshuy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2015 20:17 Banaora wrote:On July 01 2015 19:26 Salteador Neo wrote:
From today on in Spain, public demonstrations are illegal unless they are previously accepted by the Government (even if they are pacific). Also tweeting about them is illegal and will be fined (for example tweeting about Greenpeace acts).
Illegal immigrants will be sent back to their countries right away. They already did this, but now it will be legal.
Also uploading movies in Spain is now illegal.
Partido Popular moving towards progress as usual... ffs. I don't know the details but I hope these laws are in accordance with Article 10 and Article 11 of the European Convention on Human Rights: + Show Spoiler +"Article 10 – Freedom of expression
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.
2. The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary."
"Article 11 – Freedom of assembly and association
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and to freedom of association with others, including the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.
2. No restrictions shall be placed on the exercise of these rights other than such as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others. This article shall not prevent the imposition of lawful restrictions on the exercise of these rights by members of the armed forces, of the police or of the administration of the State." The need for a declaration prior to a public demonstration has existed since like ... forever in France and is clearly in accord with European convention. The reasoning is that : Any large gathering needs some organization: blocking streets and redirecting traffic, alerting local population that their street won't be usable, etc. This justifies the need for a declaration (72h before the demonstration at least). A demonstration may trigger violence and end up in riots. This justifies rejecting some of the requests. This was the case in january when a demonstration "France against Islam: Islamists go home" planned in Paris areas where the muslim community is the largest were banned. Agreed, people need to keep an eye on what demonstrations are rejected and on what grounds, but the law itself isn't that bad. There was a debate in ?2010? when they added that wearing a mask/balaclava to hide your face in any demonstration was banned as a sign of intending to do wrong and not be recognized.
I understand this and support the idea of rejecting the fascist/nazi demonstrations really. But considering how PP acts I'm afraid they will ban any demonstration against the government because "they may spawn violence".
The new law also says the spanish can't have public demonstrations in front of the Parliament, the Congress...
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On July 01 2015 20:55 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2015 19:26 Salteador Neo wrote:
From today on in Spain, public demonstrations are illegal unless they are previously accepted by the Government (even if they are pacific). Also tweeting about them is illegal and will be fined (for example tweeting about Greenpeace acts).
Illegal immigrants will be sent back to their countries right away. They already did this, but now it will be legal.
Also uploading movies in Spain is now illegal.
Partido Popular moving towards progress as usual... ffs. Oh, you can't even take pictures of the policeman while they are "protecting" demonstrators. They had been pushing for this crap since the 15M movement and Podemos spawned from it.
I can't help but think that Podemos will be just as much of a disaster for Spain as Syriza is for Greece. It definitely doesn't help that Podemos' leader pretty much openly calls Germany an enemy.
These radical populists that are popping up all over Europe are much more of a threat to the EU than Greece's default.
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On July 01 2015 21:05 Salteador Neo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2015 20:50 Oshuy wrote:On July 01 2015 20:17 Banaora wrote:On July 01 2015 19:26 Salteador Neo wrote:
From today on in Spain, public demonstrations are illegal unless they are previously accepted by the Government (even if they are pacific). Also tweeting about them is illegal and will be fined (for example tweeting about Greenpeace acts).
Illegal immigrants will be sent back to their countries right away. They already did this, but now it will be legal.
Also uploading movies in Spain is now illegal.
Partido Popular moving towards progress as usual... ffs. I don't know the details but I hope these laws are in accordance with Article 10 and Article 11 of the European Convention on Human Rights: + Show Spoiler +"Article 10 – Freedom of expression
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.
2. The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary."
"Article 11 – Freedom of assembly and association
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and to freedom of association with others, including the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.
2. No restrictions shall be placed on the exercise of these rights other than such as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others. This article shall not prevent the imposition of lawful restrictions on the exercise of these rights by members of the armed forces, of the police or of the administration of the State." The need for a declaration prior to a public demonstration has existed since like ... forever in France and is clearly in accord with European convention. The reasoning is that : Any large gathering needs some organization: blocking streets and redirecting traffic, alerting local population that their street won't be usable, etc. This justifies the need for a declaration (72h before the demonstration at least). A demonstration may trigger violence and end up in riots. This justifies rejecting some of the requests. This was the case in january when a demonstration "France against Islam: Islamists go home" planned in Paris areas where the muslim community is the largest were banned. Agreed, people need to keep an eye on what demonstrations are rejected and on what grounds, but the law itself isn't that bad. There was a debate in ?2010? when they added that wearing a mask/balaclava to hide your face in any demonstration was banned as a sign of intending to do wrong and not be recognized. I understand this and support the idea of rejecting the fascist/nazi demonstrations really. But considering how PP acts I'm afraid they will ban any demonstration against the government because "they may spawn violence". The new law also says the spanish can't have public demonstrations in front of the Parliament, the Congress...
You should not ban nazi demonstrations. Don't get me wrong now, i am no friend of that ideology. But you should not ban any demonstrations. You should regulate them in such a way that they don't lead to violence and are done in an organised fashion (For example registering them beforehand so there are adequate amounts of police ready), but the freedom of speech and freedom of assembly are much too important to compromise those rights just because you do not like what is being said or who is assembling.
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Source
Lenders' proposals - key sticking points
VAT (sales tax): Alexis Tsipras accepts a new three-tier system, but wants to keep 30% discount on the Greek islands' VAT rates. Lenders want the islands' discounts scrapped
Pensions: Ekas top-up grant for some 200,000 poorer pensioners will be phased out by 2020 - as demanded by lenders. But Mr Tsipras says no to immediate Ekas cut for the wealthiest 20% of Ekas recipients
Defence: Mr Tsipras says reduce ceiling for military spending by €200m in 2016 and €400m in 2017. Lenders call for €400m reduction - no mention of €200m
Hang on...now they're fine with cutting top for the poorer pensioners by 2020 but they're saying "no" to cuts to the top 20% of pensioners?? Does this have something to do with pensioners getting money that covers more members of the family because there's no real unemployment benefits or what? This doesn't seem right.
Is it a concession to wealthier ND voters to get a few more on his side?
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On July 01 2015 22:04 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:SourceShow nested quote +Lenders' proposals - key sticking points
VAT (sales tax): Alexis Tsipras accepts a new three-tier system, but wants to keep 30% discount on the Greek islands' VAT rates. Lenders want the islands' discounts scrapped
Pensions: Ekas top-up grant for some 200,000 poorer pensioners will be phased out by 2020 - as demanded by lenders. But Mr Tsipras says no to immediate Ekas cut for the wealthiest 20% of Ekas recipients
Defence: Mr Tsipras says reduce ceiling for military spending by €200m in 2016 and €400m in 2017. Lenders call for €400m reduction - no mention of €200m Hang on...now they're fine with cutting top for the poorer pensioners by 2020 but they're saying "no" to cuts to the top 20% of pensioners?? Does this have something to do with pensioners getting money that covers more members of the family because there's no real unemployment benefits or what? This doesn't seem right. Is it a concession to wealthier ND voters to get a few more on his side?
EKAS recipients are the poorest of pensioners. Top 20% of EKAS recipients refers to top 20% of poorest pensioners, which is still pretty damn poor.
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On July 01 2015 18:58 zatic wrote:
Germany is "less political" (what does that even mean?) because they follow policy you don't agree with?
Also towards stagnation in Germany, I'd like to point out that is somewhat old news. Wages as well as domestic spending has continuously increased since 2010.
Because there are no social movement, or always too extreme to actually rally a good portion of the working class. Modern Germany respect power way too much. There is a huge incrase in poverty and inequalities and nothing transpire of that in the public debate aside from Die Linke which is already old news.
As for wage increasing, it s still far off : how do I know that? There's no inflation.
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Having more civilized public debates, fewer street protests and strikes and little popularity for extremist/populist parties is now a bad thing? It beats burning Uber cars in the streets of Paris IMO.
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EPT
