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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
There is no social movement?
You realise that the german train union (or actually just one of them) just finnished their strike that damn near fully shut down public transport? There are also other strikes going on (kindergardens/daycare).
No social movement… Just because germans (or other northern countries) aren’t protesting against every reform that hits them (which means that it most likely will have an effect), doesn’t mean that there is no social movement. From the outside the french protestes sometimes just look ridiculous, you guys are out on the street whenever a politician farts in your direction…
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On July 01 2015 22:26 Velr wrote:
There is no social movement?
You realise that the german train union (or actually just one of them) just finnished their strike that damn near fully shut down public transport? There are also other strikes going on (kindergardens/daycare).
No social movement… Just because germans (or other northern countries) aren’t protesting against every reform that hits them (which means that it most likely will have an effect), doesn’t mean that there is no social movement. From the outside the french protestes sometimes just look ridiculous, you guys are out on the street whenever a politician farts in your direction…
And I was just like "what... they did?", check news and as of today, roughly 50 minutes ago they are in an agreement. No wonder I havn't heard of that yet
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On July 01 2015 22:26 Velr wrote:
There is no social movement?
You realise that the german train union (or actually just one of them) just finnished their strike that damn near fully shut down public transport? There are also other strikes going on (kindergardens/daycare).
No social movement… Just because germans (or other northern countries) aren’t protesting against every reform that hits them (which means that it most likely will have an effect), doesn’t mean that there is no social movement. From the outside the french protestes sometimes just look ridiculous, you guys are out on the street whenever a politician farts in your direction…
You point out one exemple, in a localize conflict. Why do you think the min wage came from outside pressure and not from social demand in Germany ? Compare to Greece, where prior to the crisis, there were tons of violent protest against the level of the min wage. Any union in Germany voted a manifestation for min wage - and not for an increase in wage in specific fields ? Any action in regard to europe and Greece ? None that I've heard of.
In France, most syndicate voted a manifestation tomorrow in defence of Greece - I'm pretty sure it's the same in Spain or Italy. They also voted for strike on various occasion throughout the last ten years, and asked for an increase in wage every god damn time (so much that it's boring). Yeah that's what I call a social movement, not localized protests against specific problems, but disagreement on grand scale things.
On July 01 2015 22:21 warding wrote:
Having more civilized public debates, fewer street protests and strikes and little popularity for extremist/populist parties is now a bad thing? It beats burning Uber cars in the streets of Paris IMO.
That's one way to put it, but I'm just pointing out, the lower increase in wage in growth time that we see in the south compared to the north is largely linked to that : with no violent manifestation and struggle, it's obvious that wages are going to increase less. The south leads to inflation and deficit of the current account, but in the north the demand is not on par with the offer, pushing the industry into increase exports rather than trying to satisfy the non-growing demand (lowflation + surplus of the current account and inequalities).
Both of those strategy are not "optimal". I still prefer the south, it's way more democratic and egalitarian.
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On July 01 2015 22:37 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2015 22:26 Velr wrote:
There is no social movement?
You realise that the german train union (or actually just one of them) just finnished their strike that damn near fully shut down public transport? There are also other strikes going on (kindergardens/daycare).
No social movement… Just because germans (or other northern countries) aren’t protesting against every reform that hits them (which means that it most likely will have an effect), doesn’t mean that there is no social movement. From the outside the french protestes sometimes just look ridiculous, you guys are out on the street whenever a politician farts in your direction…
You point out one exemple, in a localize conflict. Why do you think the min wage came from outside pressure and not from social demand in Germany ? Compare to Greece, where prior to the crisis, there were tons of violent protest against the level of the min wage. Any union in Germany voted a manifestation for min wage - and not for an increase in wage in specific fields ? Any action in regard to europe and Greece ? None that I've heard of. In France, most syndicate voted a manifestation tomorrow in defence of Greece - I'm pretty sure it's the same in Spain or Italy. They also voted for strike on various occasion throughout the last ten years, and asked for an increase in wage every god damn time (so much that it's boring). Yeah that's what I call a social movement, not localized protests against specific problems, but disagreement on grand scale things. Show nested quote +On July 01 2015 22:21 warding wrote:
Having more civilized public debates, fewer street protests and strikes and little popularity for extremist/populist parties is now a bad thing? It beats burning Uber cars in the streets of Paris IMO. That's one way to put it, but I'm just pointing out, the lower increase in wage in growth time that we see in the south compared to the north is largely linked to that : with no violent manifestation and struggle, it's obvious that wages are going to increase less.
I take it every German union is supposed to strike in unison now until people retire at 25? :D Not to speak of the fact that he actually pointed out 3 examples, with there being plenty more in the last few years. Also, most of Germany is now "localised"? The train conductor union strike was country wide.
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On July 01 2015 22:43 dismiss wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2015 22:37 WhiteDog wrote:On July 01 2015 22:26 Velr wrote:
There is no social movement?
You realise that the german train union (or actually just one of them) just finnished their strike that damn near fully shut down public transport? There are also other strikes going on (kindergardens/daycare).
No social movement… Just because germans (or other northern countries) aren’t protesting against every reform that hits them (which means that it most likely will have an effect), doesn’t mean that there is no social movement. From the outside the french protestes sometimes just look ridiculous, you guys are out on the street whenever a politician farts in your direction…
You point out one exemple, in a localize conflict. Why do you think the min wage came from outside pressure and not from social demand in Germany ? Compare to Greece, where prior to the crisis, there were tons of violent protest against the level of the min wage. Any union in Germany voted a manifestation for min wage - and not for an increase in wage in specific fields ? Any action in regard to europe and Greece ? None that I've heard of. In France, most syndicate voted a manifestation tomorrow in defence of Greece - I'm pretty sure it's the same in Spain or Italy. They also voted for strike on various occasion throughout the last ten years, and asked for an increase in wage every god damn time (so much that it's boring). Yeah that's what I call a social movement, not localized protests against specific problems, but disagreement on grand scale things. On July 01 2015 22:21 warding wrote:
Having more civilized public debates, fewer street protests and strikes and little popularity for extremist/populist parties is now a bad thing? It beats burning Uber cars in the streets of Paris IMO. That's one way to put it, but I'm just pointing out, the lower increase in wage in growth time that we see in the south compared to the north is largely linked to that : with no violent manifestation and struggle, it's obvious that wages are going to increase less. I take it every German union is supposed to strike in unison now until people retire at 25? :D
Or maybe just move an inch when the poverty increase that much ? When there is no min wage ?
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And your point is?
As I said, all these demonstrations just look funny, sad and unjustified to "outsiders" and i don't see how constantly having your country in turmoil is in any way or form desireable.
From the outisde France Looks like this:
People --> Demand that might or might not have anything to do with politics (while i was in France there was a bus/public transportation strike because some bus drivers got assaulted... WHAT?)
Politicians want a reform that would cut back some (sometimes ridiculous) benefits --> stirke
People --> Vote front national.
GOOD JOB.
Social movements don't equal good or sane or beneficial....
Btw: I'm actually very leftist and disagree with most what Merkel and before her Schröder have done to Germany, but your arguments are just downright ridiculous.
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On July 01 2015 22:37 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2015 22:26 Velr wrote:
There is no social movement?
You realise that the german train union (or actually just one of them) just finnished their strike that damn near fully shut down public transport? There are also other strikes going on (kindergardens/daycare).
No social movement… Just because germans (or other northern countries) aren’t protesting against every reform that hits them (which means that it most likely will have an effect), doesn’t mean that there is no social movement. From the outside the french protestes sometimes just look ridiculous, you guys are out on the street whenever a politician farts in your direction…
You point out one exemple, in a localize conflict. Why do you think the min wage came from outside pressure and not from social demand in Germany ? Compare to Greece, where prior to the crisis, there were tons of violent protest against the level of the min wage. Any union in Germany voted a manifestation for min wage - and not for an increase in wage in specific fields ? Any action in regard to europe and Greece ? None that I've heard of. In France, most syndicate voted a manifestation tomorrow in defence of Greece - I'm pretty sure it's the same in Spain or Italy. They also voted for strike on various occasion throughout the last ten years, and asked for an increase in wage every god damn time (so much that it's boring). Yeah that's what I call a social movement, not localized protests against specific problems, but disagreement on grand scale things. Show nested quote +On July 01 2015 22:21 warding wrote:
Having more civilized public debates, fewer street protests and strikes and little popularity for extremist/populist parties is now a bad thing? It beats burning Uber cars in the streets of Paris IMO. That's one way to put it, but I'm just pointing out, the lower increase in wage in growth time that we see in the south compared to the north is largely linked to that : with no violent manifestation and struggle, it's obvious that wages are going to increase less. The south is unsustainable (thus creating inflation and deficit of the current account), the north is unsustainable (because the demand is not on par with the offer, pushing the industry into increase exports rather than trying to satisfy the non-growing demand).
Yeah I'm sure that's the only explanation. It probably has nothing to do with diferent types of industries locating on different places, one being more productive than others and all that economic non-sense.
Also minimum wage =/= real wage
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On July 01 2015 22:45 Velr wrote:
And your point is?
As I said, all these demonstrations just look funny, sad and unjustified to "outsiders" and i don't see how constantly having your country in turmoil is in any way or form desireable.
From the outisde France Looks like this:
People --> Demand that might or might not have anything to do with politics (while i was in France there was a bus/public transportation strike because some bus drivers got assaulted... WHAT?)
Politicians want a reform that would cut back some (sometimes ridiculous) benefits --> stirke
People --> Vote front national.
GOOD JOB.
Social movements don't equal good or sane or beneficial....
The Front Nation is vastly the result of the weakness of our unions, that have been destroyed by Sarkozy's reforms (and also, their own corruption / incompetence).
On July 01 2015 22:45 GoTuNk! wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2015 22:37 WhiteDog wrote:On July 01 2015 22:26 Velr wrote:
There is no social movement?
You realise that the german train union (or actually just one of them) just finnished their strike that damn near fully shut down public transport? There are also other strikes going on (kindergardens/daycare).
No social movement… Just because germans (or other northern countries) aren’t protesting against every reform that hits them (which means that it most likely will have an effect), doesn’t mean that there is no social movement. From the outside the french protestes sometimes just look ridiculous, you guys are out on the street whenever a politician farts in your direction…
You point out one exemple, in a localize conflict. Why do you think the min wage came from outside pressure and not from social demand in Germany ? Compare to Greece, where prior to the crisis, there were tons of violent protest against the level of the min wage. Any union in Germany voted a manifestation for min wage - and not for an increase in wage in specific fields ? Any action in regard to europe and Greece ? None that I've heard of. In France, most syndicate voted a manifestation tomorrow in defence of Greece - I'm pretty sure it's the same in Spain or Italy. They also voted for strike on various occasion throughout the last ten years, and asked for an increase in wage every god damn time (so much that it's boring). Yeah that's what I call a social movement, not localized protests against specific problems, but disagreement on grand scale things. On July 01 2015 22:21 warding wrote:
Having more civilized public debates, fewer street protests and strikes and little popularity for extremist/populist parties is now a bad thing? It beats burning Uber cars in the streets of Paris IMO. That's one way to put it, but I'm just pointing out, the lower increase in wage in growth time that we see in the south compared to the north is largely linked to that : with no violent manifestation and struggle, it's obvious that wages are going to increase less. The south is unsustainable (thus creating inflation and deficit of the current account), the north is unsustainable (because the demand is not on par with the offer, pushing the industry into increase exports rather than trying to satisfy the non-growing demand). Yeah I'm sure that's the only explanation. It probably has nothing to do with diferent types of industries locating on different places, one being more productive than others and all that economic non-sense. Also minimum wage =/= real wage
It's a well known economic fact that when min wage exist, it tend to dictate the evolution of the entirety of the wages of a country. If you increase the min wage by 1%, you usually see the entirety of the scale of wage jump by 1%, rather than min wage catching up on the rest. That's why when there is a min wage and when union fight for an increase in min wage, it usually create a huge increase in wage (and inflation).
To prove that I'm talking out of thin air, here is a recent study about that (from two IMF economists, not necessarily pro union scientists right) :
http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/fandd/2015/03/jaumotte.htm
Inequality has risen in many advanced economies since the 1980s, largely because of the concentration of incomes at the top of the distribution. Measures of inequality have increased substantially, but the most striking development is the large and continuous increase in the share of total income garnered by the 10 percent of the population that earns the most—which is only partially captured by the more traditional measure of inequality, the Gini coefficient (see Chart 1). ![[image loading]](http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/fandd/2015/03/images/jaumotte_chart1.jpg) [...] Traditional explanations for the rise of inequality in advanced economies are skill-biased technological change and globalization, which have increased the relative demand for skilled workers, benefiting top earners relative to average earners. But technology and globalization foster economic growth, and there is little policymakers can or are willing to do to reverse these trends. Moreover, while high-income countries have been similarly affected by technological change and globalization, inequality in these economies has risen at different speeds and magnitudes.[...] We examine the causes of the rise in inequality and focus on the relationship between labor market institutions and the distribution of incomes, by analyzing the experience of advanced economies since the early 1980s. The widely held view is that changes in unionization or the minimum wage affect low- and middle-wage workers but are unlikely to have a direct impact on top income earners.While our findings are consistent with prior views about the effects of the minimum wage, we find strong evidence that lower unionization is associated with an increase in top income shares in advanced economies during the period 1980–2010 (for example, see Chart 2), thus challenging preconceptions about the channels through which union density affects income distribution. This is the most novel aspect of our analysis, which sets the stage for further research on the link between the erosion of unions and the rise of inequality at the top. ![[image loading]](http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/fandd/2015/03/images/jaumotte_chart2.jpg)
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On July 01 2015 22:37 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2015 22:26 Velr wrote:
There is no social movement?
You realise that the german train union (or actually just one of them) just finnished their strike that damn near fully shut down public transport? There are also other strikes going on (kindergardens/daycare).
No social movement… Just because germans (or other northern countries) aren’t protesting against every reform that hits them (which means that it most likely will have an effect), doesn’t mean that there is no social movement. From the outside the french protestes sometimes just look ridiculous, you guys are out on the street whenever a politician farts in your direction…
You point out one exemple, in a localize conflict. Why do you think the min wage came from outside pressure and not from social demand in Germany ? Compare to Greece, where prior to the crisis, there were tons of violent protest against the level of the min wage. Any union in Germany voted a manifestation for min wage - and not for an increase in wage in specific fields ? Any action in regard to europe and Greece ? None that I've heard of. In France, most syndicate voted a manifestation tomorrow in defence of Greece - I'm pretty sure it's the same in Spain or Italy. They also voted for strike on various occasion throughout the last ten years, and asked for an increase in wage every god damn time (so much that it's boring). Yeah that's what I call a social movement, not localized protests against specific problems, but disagreement on grand scale things. Show nested quote +On July 01 2015 22:21 warding wrote:
Having more civilized public debates, fewer street protests and strikes and little popularity for extremist/populist parties is now a bad thing? It beats burning Uber cars in the streets of Paris IMO. That's one way to put it, but I'm just pointing out, the lower increase in wage in growth time that we see in the south compared to the north is largely linked to that : with no violent manifestation and struggle, it's obvious that wages are going to increase less.
Because the shining example of a good social movement is rioting in the streets. There's rioting in the streets in Brazil every now and then, but I would still call the social movements of Holland (next to 0 rioting in the streets) better at standing for the people's rights AND better at actually achieving something.
You know that when a union sits at a table and negotiates they can get stuff done in some places (meaning: not France), and therefore don't need all tractor drivers to block off the route du soleil or something equally disruptive?
Also, a reduction in wage growth is not necessarily a bad thing. Nor is 0 inflation. Finally, one of the reasons inflation is virtually 0 is because the oil price dropped through the floor. Is that Germany's fault too?
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Because the shining example of a good social movement is rioting in the streets.
Did I say "good" ? Am I moralist ?
Also, a reduction in wage growth is not necessarily a bad thing. Nor is 0 inflation. Finally, one of the reasons inflation is virtually 0 is because the oil price dropped through the floor. Is that Germany's fault too?
It's not about good or bad everything equal, but good or bad in regard to the current situation of europe. What crease the inequalities in competitiveness is vastly the differential in increase in wage that you can usually observe through the differential in inflation.
Also, some inflation right now, with the kind of debt we have, could be part of a solution yeah.
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Zurich15366 Posts
On July 01 2015 22:37 WhiteDog wrote:
You point out one exemple, in a localize conflict. Why do you think the min wage came from outside pressure and not from social demand in Germany ? Compare to Greece, where prior to the crisis, there were tons of violent protest against the level of the min wage. Any union in Germany voted a manifestation for min wage - and not for an increase in wage in specific fields ?
That's just plain wrong and a typical case of white dog blanket Germanophobia. All unions have been fighting for a general minimum wage forever, as have the left leaning parties.
Your argument is still that Germany is "less political" because you don't like German policy and because it has less luddites burning cars. Ridiculous.
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On July 01 2015 22:47 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2015 22:45 Velr wrote:
And your point is?
As I said, all these demonstrations just look funny, sad and unjustified to "outsiders" and i don't see how constantly having your country in turmoil is in any way or form desireable.
From the outisde France Looks like this:
People --> Demand that might or might not have anything to do with politics (while i was in France there was a bus/public transportation strike because some bus drivers got assaulted... WHAT?)
Politicians want a reform that would cut back some (sometimes ridiculous) benefits --> stirke
People --> Vote front national.
GOOD JOB.
Social movements don't equal good or sane or beneficial.... The Front Nation is vastly the result of the weakness of our unions, that have been destroyed by Sarkozy's reforms (and also, their own corruption / incompetence). Show nested quote +On July 01 2015 22:45 GoTuNk! wrote:On July 01 2015 22:37 WhiteDog wrote:On July 01 2015 22:26 Velr wrote:
There is no social movement?
You realise that the german train union (or actually just one of them) just finnished their strike that damn near fully shut down public transport? There are also other strikes going on (kindergardens/daycare).
No social movement… Just because germans (or other northern countries) aren’t protesting against every reform that hits them (which means that it most likely will have an effect), doesn’t mean that there is no social movement. From the outside the french protestes sometimes just look ridiculous, you guys are out on the street whenever a politician farts in your direction…
You point out one exemple, in a localize conflict. Why do you think the min wage came from outside pressure and not from social demand in Germany ? Compare to Greece, where prior to the crisis, there were tons of violent protest against the level of the min wage. Any union in Germany voted a manifestation for min wage - and not for an increase in wage in specific fields ? Any action in regard to europe and Greece ? None that I've heard of. In France, most syndicate voted a manifestation tomorrow in defence of Greece - I'm pretty sure it's the same in Spain or Italy. They also voted for strike on various occasion throughout the last ten years, and asked for an increase in wage every god damn time (so much that it's boring). Yeah that's what I call a social movement, not localized protests against specific problems, but disagreement on grand scale things. On July 01 2015 22:21 warding wrote:
Having more civilized public debates, fewer street protests and strikes and little popularity for extremist/populist parties is now a bad thing? It beats burning Uber cars in the streets of Paris IMO. That's one way to put it, but I'm just pointing out, the lower increase in wage in growth time that we see in the south compared to the north is largely linked to that : with no violent manifestation and struggle, it's obvious that wages are going to increase less. The south is unsustainable (thus creating inflation and deficit of the current account), the north is unsustainable (because the demand is not on par with the offer, pushing the industry into increase exports rather than trying to satisfy the non-growing demand). Yeah I'm sure that's the only explanation. It probably has nothing to do with diferent types of industries locating on different places, one being more productive than others and all that economic non-sense. Also minimum wage =/= real wage It's a well known economic fact that when min wage exist, it tend to dictate the evolution of the entirety of the wages of a country. If you increase the min wage by 1%, you usually see the entirety of the scale of wage jump by 1%, rather than min wage catching up on the rest. That's why when there is a min wage and when union fight for an increase in min wage, it usually create a huge increase in wage (and inflation).
Huh no? That's just some leftist theory (that makes no sense), not a fact. Raising minimum wages just hits employment % in a way, creating a few more unemployed people and redistributing the wages among the other.
Not to mention, raising wages at the same time as inflation means no one gets better? lol (It's called a nominal raise in wages and real wage remains the same)
The ONLY thing that increases real wages long term is an increase in productivity, period.
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Btw... How come nobody in Germany notices that dramatic increase of poverty you are talking about?
Pretty much all surveys about peoples financial satisfaction/happiness scored record heights in the last years. The unemployment rate dropped so hard, that we now have to import foreign workers again.
The unemploymentbenefits/Hartz4 look low, but are actually quite high, if you use your legal possibilities of bonus payments for rent etc.
But yeah... Germany drowning in poverty... seriously... we should riot more! A country that is not burning down cars every week in the capitals suburbs has no political culture!
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So since Greece has defaulted, what's the possibility of Greece officially exiting the Eurozone in the next week or so?
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On July 01 2015 22:57 GoTuNk! wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2015 22:47 WhiteDog wrote:On July 01 2015 22:45 Velr wrote:
And your point is?
As I said, all these demonstrations just look funny, sad and unjustified to "outsiders" and i don't see how constantly having your country in turmoil is in any way or form desireable.
From the outisde France Looks like this:
People --> Demand that might or might not have anything to do with politics (while i was in France there was a bus/public transportation strike because some bus drivers got assaulted... WHAT?)
Politicians want a reform that would cut back some (sometimes ridiculous) benefits --> stirke
People --> Vote front national.
GOOD JOB.
Social movements don't equal good or sane or beneficial.... The Front Nation is vastly the result of the weakness of our unions, that have been destroyed by Sarkozy's reforms (and also, their own corruption / incompetence). On July 01 2015 22:45 GoTuNk! wrote:On July 01 2015 22:37 WhiteDog wrote:On July 01 2015 22:26 Velr wrote:
There is no social movement?
You realise that the german train union (or actually just one of them) just finnished their strike that damn near fully shut down public transport? There are also other strikes going on (kindergardens/daycare).
No social movement… Just because germans (or other northern countries) aren’t protesting against every reform that hits them (which means that it most likely will have an effect), doesn’t mean that there is no social movement. From the outside the french protestes sometimes just look ridiculous, you guys are out on the street whenever a politician farts in your direction…
You point out one exemple, in a localize conflict. Why do you think the min wage came from outside pressure and not from social demand in Germany ? Compare to Greece, where prior to the crisis, there were tons of violent protest against the level of the min wage. Any union in Germany voted a manifestation for min wage - and not for an increase in wage in specific fields ? Any action in regard to europe and Greece ? None that I've heard of. In France, most syndicate voted a manifestation tomorrow in defence of Greece - I'm pretty sure it's the same in Spain or Italy. They also voted for strike on various occasion throughout the last ten years, and asked for an increase in wage every god damn time (so much that it's boring). Yeah that's what I call a social movement, not localized protests against specific problems, but disagreement on grand scale things. On July 01 2015 22:21 warding wrote:
Having more civilized public debates, fewer street protests and strikes and little popularity for extremist/populist parties is now a bad thing? It beats burning Uber cars in the streets of Paris IMO. That's one way to put it, but I'm just pointing out, the lower increase in wage in growth time that we see in the south compared to the north is largely linked to that : with no violent manifestation and struggle, it's obvious that wages are going to increase less. The south is unsustainable (thus creating inflation and deficit of the current account), the north is unsustainable (because the demand is not on par with the offer, pushing the industry into increase exports rather than trying to satisfy the non-growing demand). Yeah I'm sure that's the only explanation. It probably has nothing to do with diferent types of industries locating on different places, one being more productive than others and all that economic non-sense. Also minimum wage =/= real wage It's a well known economic fact that when min wage exist, it tend to dictate the evolution of the entirety of the wages of a country. If you increase the min wage by 1%, you usually see the entirety of the scale of wage jump by 1%, rather than min wage catching up on the rest. That's why when there is a min wage and when union fight for an increase in min wage, it usually create a huge increase in wage (and inflation). Huh no? That's just some leftist theory (that makes no sense), not a fact. Raising minimum wages just hits employment % in a way, creating a few more unemployed people and redistributing the wages among the other. Not to mention, raising wages at the same time as inflation means no one gets better? lol (It's called a nominal raise in wages and real wage remains the same) The ONLY thing that increases real wages long term is an increase in productivity, period.
lol you're awesome man. I take the time to actually post an economic study about it (where the two author actually point out that the consensus on min wage is that an increase on min wage increase the entirety of the scale of wage) and you still respond to something I did not say.
Did I said that an increase in min wage necessarily create an increase in purchasing power ? No I did not, I was not talking about real wage but nominal.
On July 01 2015 22:56 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2015 22:37 WhiteDog wrote:
You point out one exemple, in a localize conflict. Why do you think the min wage came from outside pressure and not from social demand in Germany ? Compare to Greece, where prior to the crisis, there were tons of violent protest against the level of the min wage. Any union in Germany voted a manifestation for min wage - and not for an increase in wage in specific fields ? That's just plain wrong and a typical case of white dog blanket Germanophobia. All unions have been fighting for a general minimum wage forever, as have the left leaning parties. Your argument is still that Germany is "less political" because you don't like German policy and because it has less luddites burning cars. Ridiculous.
Just because I'm not saying Germany is the greatest doesn't mean I'm germanophobic. Your unions have been fighting, maybe (and actually, it's pretty recent that there are social conflict in Germany, for the last ten years there were almost none), still you finally got a min wage decades after other european countries and it appeared due to the insistance of your economic "partner" so the pressure coming from your union must have been quite gentle. I believe social democrate are part of the left right ? And have been in power for how many years ?
Don't be so tight, I know it's easier to believe Greeks are just lazy and French burn car for no reasons.
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On July 01 2015 22:57 mahrgell wrote:
Btw... How come nobody in Germany notices that dramatic increase of poverty you are talking about?
Pretty much all surveys about peoples financial satisfaction/happiness scored record heights in the last years. The unemployment rate dropped so hard, that we now have to import foreign workers again.
The unemploymentbenefits/Hartz4 look low, but are actually quite high, if you use your legal possibilities of bonus payments for rent etc.
But yeah... Germany drowning in poverty... seriously... we should riot more! A country that is not burning down cars every week in the capitals suburbs has no political culture!
Um, that is very easily explainable, this change happened very gradually. Not to mention that the driver for the change was the reunification of Germany so it's not like people could object all that much, 11% unemployment did call for changes back in 1999 and reunification trumps other considerations after all.
Have people used to 80s West Germany standards live in today's Germany overnight for no good reason, see what they do.
On July 01 2015 22:58 RapidTiger wrote:
So since Greece has defaulted, what's the possibility of Greece officially exiting the Eurozone in the next week or so?
0.
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On July 01 2015 22:58 RapidTiger wrote:
So since Greece has defaulted, what's the possibility of Greece officially exiting the Eurozone in the next week or so?
i think the next big date to look for is the referendum this Sunday ofcourse, and after that the 20th of July when Greece has to pay the ECB.
The IMF has not taken any real action on Greece missing their payment last night for now.
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On July 01 2015 22:58 RapidTiger wrote:
So since Greece has defaulted, what's the possibility of Greece officially exiting the Eurozone in the next week or so?
They don't consider it defaulted until they fail to pay back private loans. The IMF calls it being late on a payment and nothing more so far. Same goes for rating agencies iirc
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On July 01 2015 23:02 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2015 22:57 GoTuNk! wrote:On July 01 2015 22:47 WhiteDog wrote:On July 01 2015 22:45 Velr wrote:
And your point is?
As I said, all these demonstrations just look funny, sad and unjustified to "outsiders" and i don't see how constantly having your country in turmoil is in any way or form desireable.
From the outisde France Looks like this:
People --> Demand that might or might not have anything to do with politics (while i was in France there was a bus/public transportation strike because some bus drivers got assaulted... WHAT?)
Politicians want a reform that would cut back some (sometimes ridiculous) benefits --> stirke
People --> Vote front national.
GOOD JOB.
Social movements don't equal good or sane or beneficial.... The Front Nation is vastly the result of the weakness of our unions, that have been destroyed by Sarkozy's reforms (and also, their own corruption / incompetence). On July 01 2015 22:45 GoTuNk! wrote:On July 01 2015 22:37 WhiteDog wrote:On July 01 2015 22:26 Velr wrote:
There is no social movement?
You realise that the german train union (or actually just one of them) just finnished their strike that damn near fully shut down public transport? There are also other strikes going on (kindergardens/daycare).
No social movement… Just because germans (or other northern countries) aren’t protesting against every reform that hits them (which means that it most likely will have an effect), doesn’t mean that there is no social movement. From the outside the french protestes sometimes just look ridiculous, you guys are out on the street whenever a politician farts in your direction…
You point out one exemple, in a localize conflict. Why do you think the min wage came from outside pressure and not from social demand in Germany ? Compare to Greece, where prior to the crisis, there were tons of violent protest against the level of the min wage. Any union in Germany voted a manifestation for min wage - and not for an increase in wage in specific fields ? Any action in regard to europe and Greece ? None that I've heard of. In France, most syndicate voted a manifestation tomorrow in defence of Greece - I'm pretty sure it's the same in Spain or Italy. They also voted for strike on various occasion throughout the last ten years, and asked for an increase in wage every god damn time (so much that it's boring). Yeah that's what I call a social movement, not localized protests against specific problems, but disagreement on grand scale things. On July 01 2015 22:21 warding wrote:
Having more civilized public debates, fewer street protests and strikes and little popularity for extremist/populist parties is now a bad thing? It beats burning Uber cars in the streets of Paris IMO. That's one way to put it, but I'm just pointing out, the lower increase in wage in growth time that we see in the south compared to the north is largely linked to that : with no violent manifestation and struggle, it's obvious that wages are going to increase less. The south is unsustainable (thus creating inflation and deficit of the current account), the north is unsustainable (because the demand is not on par with the offer, pushing the industry into increase exports rather than trying to satisfy the non-growing demand). Yeah I'm sure that's the only explanation. It probably has nothing to do with diferent types of industries locating on different places, one being more productive than others and all that economic non-sense. Also minimum wage =/= real wage It's a well known economic fact that when min wage exist, it tend to dictate the evolution of the entirety of the wages of a country. If you increase the min wage by 1%, you usually see the entirety of the scale of wage jump by 1%, rather than min wage catching up on the rest. That's why when there is a min wage and when union fight for an increase in min wage, it usually create a huge increase in wage (and inflation). Huh no? That's just some leftist theory (that makes no sense), not a fact. Raising minimum wages just hits employment % in a way, creating a few more unemployed people and redistributing the wages among the other. Not to mention, raising wages at the same time as inflation means no one gets better? lol (It's called a nominal raise in wages and real wage remains the same) The ONLY thing that increases real wages long term is an increase in productivity, period. lol you're awesome man. I take the time to actually post an economic study about it (where the two author actually point out that the consensus on min wage is that an increase on min wage increase the entirety of the scale of wage) and you still respond to something I did not say. Did I said that an increase in min wage necessarily create an increase in purchasing power ? No I did not, I was not talking about real wage but nominal. Show nested quote +On July 01 2015 22:56 zatic wrote:On July 01 2015 22:37 WhiteDog wrote:
You point out one exemple, in a localize conflict. Why do you think the min wage came from outside pressure and not from social demand in Germany ? Compare to Greece, where prior to the crisis, there were tons of violent protest against the level of the min wage. Any union in Germany voted a manifestation for min wage - and not for an increase in wage in specific fields ? That's just plain wrong and a typical case of white dog blanket Germanophobia. All unions have been fighting for a general minimum wage forever, as have the left leaning parties. Your argument is still that Germany is "less political" because you don't like German policy and because it has less luddites burning cars. Ridiculous. Just because I'm not saying Germany is the greatest doesn't mean I'm germanophobic. Your unions have been fighting, maybe (and actually, it's pretty recent that there are social conflict in Germany, for the last ten years there were almost none), still you finally got a min wage decades after other european countries and it appeared due to the insistance of your economic "partner" so the pressure coming from your union must have been quite gentle. I believe social democrate are part of the left right ? And have been in power for how many years ? Don't be so tight, I know it's easier to believe Greeks are just lazy and French burn car for no reasons.
"Not to mention, raising wages at the same time as inflation means no one gets better? lol (It's called a nominal raise in wages and real wage remains the same) "
I adressed that, as I said above, just seemed absurd to me. So you believe people should riot for no real benefits? (I.e nominal increase in wages?)
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On July 01 2015 22:58 RapidTiger wrote:
So since Greece has defaulted, what's the possibility of Greece officially exiting the Eurozone in the next week or so?
1. Negotiations are still ongoing, despite defaulting
2. There is a referendum on Sunday
So, conclusion: nobody knows.
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EPT
