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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
SoSexy, I would like to understand what exactly you want to do out of your Nigerian cannibals case. Surely you agree that the Italian state had no way to predict that horror. The crime they would commit was not written on their forehead. So? You say you don't want collective punishment, so you cannot close the border simply because some immigrants commit offences/crimes, if only by the law of numbers (we're talking dozens of hundrends of people, so you will find delinquents/criminals in any human collectivity with those numbers). So what is the solution?
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On July 04 2018 21:09 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2018 20:11 VHbb wrote:
Wait, is the European culture one of the 'good ones' or not?
After all, we let people drown because we don't want them in our country, is it better than killing people because they are albinos?
Maybe you should make a sketch of which cultures are good and which are bad, then we can decide what to do about it: probably a big war is the best solution, right? I can. I'll start wth some options, and you can decide what it's better and where to live in the world! Would you prefer a society where you get killed if you don't follow a specific religion, or ours? Would you prefer a society where women can't drive and go to cinema, or ours? Would you prefer a society where children are married at 10-12 years old with adult and senile man, or ours? Would you prefer a society that believes in witchcraft and voodoo magic, or ours? Would you prefer a society where a raped woman is stoned to death because it is considered adultery, or ours? If you prefer the first one, go on. Take a plane. It's UNREAL - unreal that young people, born in a country that gives them total freedom are defending societies and cultures where human life, women rights, animal rights, religious rights are considered SHIT and questioning 'why are we better than them?'. You are degenerates, for real. I'll post one last quotation from Sam Harris about why we can OBJECTIVELY call some state of beings 'good' and others 'bad': + Show Spoiler +The people of Albania have a venerable tradition of vendetta called Kanun: if a
man commits a murder, his victim’s family can kill any one of his male relatives in
reprisal. If a boy has the misfortune of being the son or brother of a murderer, he must
spend his days and nights in hiding, forgoing a proper education, adequate health care,
and the pleasures of a normal life. Untold numbers of Albanian men and boys live as
prisoners of their homes even now. 1
Can we say that the Albanians are morally wrong to
have structured their society in this way? Is their tradition of blood feud a form of evil?
Are their values inferior to our own?
[...]
The Bad Life
You are a young widow who has lived her entire life in the midst of civil war.
Today, your seven-year-old daughter was raped and dismembered before your eyes.
Worse still, the perpetrator was your fourteen-year-old son, who was goaded to this evil
at the point of a machete by a press gang of drug-addled soldiers. You are now running
barefoot through the jungle with killers in pursuit. While this is the worst day of your life,
it is not entirely out of character with the other days of your life: since the moment you
were born, your world has been a theater of cruelty and violence. You have never learned
to read, taken a hot shower, or traveled beyond the green hell of the jungle. Even the
luckiest people you have known have experienced little more than an occasional respite
from chronic hunger, fear, apathy, and confusion. Unfortunately, you’ve been very
unlucky, even by these bleak standards. Your life has been one long emergency, and now
it is nearly over.
The Good Life
You are married to the most loving, intelligent, and charismatic person you have
ever met. Both of you have careers that are intellectually stimulating and financially
rewarding. For decades, your wealth and social connections have allowed you to devote
yourself to activities that bring you immense personal satisfaction. One of your greatest
sources of happiness has been to find creative ways to help people who have not had your
good fortune in life. In fact, you have just won a billion-dollar grant to benefit children in
the developing world. If asked, you would say that you could not imagine how your time
on earth could be better spent. Due to a combination of good genes and optimal
circumstances, you and your closest friends and family will live very long, healthy lives,
untouched by crime, sudden bereavements, and other misfortunes.
The examples I have picked, while generic, are nonetheless real—in that they
represent lives that some human beings are likely to be leading at this moment. While
there are surely ways in which this spectrum of suffering and happiness might be
extended, I think these cases indicate the general range of experience that is accessible, in
principle, to most of us. I also think it is indisputable that most of what we do with our
lives is predicated on there being nothing more important, at least for ourselves and for
those closest to us, than the difference between the Bad Life and the Good Life.
What's "ours"? How come once we have moved away from the countries that you don't like, we are just one society that has no particularities? Can't I decide that I like France more than Poland? Or Norway more than Italy?
Of course, it's not innocent that you have us choose between us and them as if there was no difference between the "us" that you've decided we are. It allows you to excuse everything that's wrong with your society specifically under the pretense that there is worse out there. There is also better out there. You could work toward that, and you choose not to.
|
1) Reduce vastly the number of immigrants allowed
2) Extensive background checks on those allowed, giving priority to people who can benefit the country and not milk it
3) Reform of justice so that if an immigrant commits a crime during the first ten years of his stay, he will sent to his country of origin
'You cannot close the border'. Are you sure about that? Where is it written that Italy has to take in and worry about every inhabitant of the planet that asks her for help?
Imagine this scenario: tomorrow Italy accepts everyone. Open borders everywhere in Europe. Do you honestly think that our society would become better or worse? That crime would rise or decline? That healthcare would be more effective or worse? The problem with the 'accept everyone' rhetoric is that it is a momentary effect. There's no long term solution to it.
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On July 04 2018 21:52 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2018 21:09 SoSexy wrote:On July 04 2018 20:11 VHbb wrote:
Wait, is the European culture one of the 'good ones' or not?
After all, we let people drown because we don't want them in our country, is it better than killing people because they are albinos?
Maybe you should make a sketch of which cultures are good and which are bad, then we can decide what to do about it: probably a big war is the best solution, right? I can. I'll start wth some options, and you can decide what it's better and where to live in the world! Would you prefer a society where you get killed if you don't follow a specific religion, or ours? Would you prefer a society where women can't drive and go to cinema, or ours? Would you prefer a society where children are married at 10-12 years old with adult and senile man, or ours? Would you prefer a society that believes in witchcraft and voodoo magic, or ours? Would you prefer a society where a raped woman is stoned to death because it is considered adultery, or ours? If you prefer the first one, go on. Take a plane. It's UNREAL - unreal that young people, born in a country that gives them total freedom are defending societies and cultures where human life, women rights, animal rights, religious rights are considered SHIT and questioning 'why are we better than them?'. You are degenerates, for real. I'll post one last quotation from Sam Harris about why we can OBJECTIVELY call some state of beings 'good' and others 'bad': + Show Spoiler +The people of Albania have a venerable tradition of vendetta called Kanun: if a
man commits a murder, his victim’s family can kill any one of his male relatives in
reprisal. If a boy has the misfortune of being the son or brother of a murderer, he must
spend his days and nights in hiding, forgoing a proper education, adequate health care,
and the pleasures of a normal life. Untold numbers of Albanian men and boys live as
prisoners of their homes even now. 1
Can we say that the Albanians are morally wrong to
have structured their society in this way? Is their tradition of blood feud a form of evil?
Are their values inferior to our own?
[...]
The Bad Life
You are a young widow who has lived her entire life in the midst of civil war.
Today, your seven-year-old daughter was raped and dismembered before your eyes.
Worse still, the perpetrator was your fourteen-year-old son, who was goaded to this evil
at the point of a machete by a press gang of drug-addled soldiers. You are now running
barefoot through the jungle with killers in pursuit. While this is the worst day of your life,
it is not entirely out of character with the other days of your life: since the moment you
were born, your world has been a theater of cruelty and violence. You have never learned
to read, taken a hot shower, or traveled beyond the green hell of the jungle. Even the
luckiest people you have known have experienced little more than an occasional respite
from chronic hunger, fear, apathy, and confusion. Unfortunately, you’ve been very
unlucky, even by these bleak standards. Your life has been one long emergency, and now
it is nearly over.
The Good Life
You are married to the most loving, intelligent, and charismatic person you have
ever met. Both of you have careers that are intellectually stimulating and financially
rewarding. For decades, your wealth and social connections have allowed you to devote
yourself to activities that bring you immense personal satisfaction. One of your greatest
sources of happiness has been to find creative ways to help people who have not had your
good fortune in life. In fact, you have just won a billion-dollar grant to benefit children in
the developing world. If asked, you would say that you could not imagine how your time
on earth could be better spent. Due to a combination of good genes and optimal
circumstances, you and your closest friends and family will live very long, healthy lives,
untouched by crime, sudden bereavements, and other misfortunes.
The examples I have picked, while generic, are nonetheless real—in that they
represent lives that some human beings are likely to be leading at this moment. While
there are surely ways in which this spectrum of suffering and happiness might be
extended, I think these cases indicate the general range of experience that is accessible, in
principle, to most of us. I also think it is indisputable that most of what we do with our
lives is predicated on there being nothing more important, at least for ourselves and for
those closest to us, than the difference between the Bad Life and the Good Life. What's "ours"? How come once we have moved away from the countries that you don't like, we are just one society that has no particularities? Can't I decide that I like France more than Poland? Or Norway more than Italy? Of course, it's not innocent that you have us choose between us and them as if there was no difference between the "us" that you've decided we are. It allows you to excuse everything that's wrong with your society specifically under the pretense that there is worse out there. There is also better out there. You could work toward that, and you choose not to.
I'll help you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture
The Western world has been the leading force in the technological and scientific disciplines: whether measured in people or events, 97 percent of accomplishment in the scientific inventories occurred in Europe and North America.
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On July 04 2018 21:54 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2018 21:52 Nebuchad wrote:On July 04 2018 21:09 SoSexy wrote:On July 04 2018 20:11 VHbb wrote:
Wait, is the European culture one of the 'good ones' or not?
After all, we let people drown because we don't want them in our country, is it better than killing people because they are albinos?
Maybe you should make a sketch of which cultures are good and which are bad, then we can decide what to do about it: probably a big war is the best solution, right? I can. I'll start wth some options, and you can decide what it's better and where to live in the world! Would you prefer a society where you get killed if you don't follow a specific religion, or ours? Would you prefer a society where women can't drive and go to cinema, or ours? Would you prefer a society where children are married at 10-12 years old with adult and senile man, or ours? Would you prefer a society that believes in witchcraft and voodoo magic, or ours? Would you prefer a society where a raped woman is stoned to death because it is considered adultery, or ours? If you prefer the first one, go on. Take a plane. It's UNREAL - unreal that young people, born in a country that gives them total freedom are defending societies and cultures where human life, women rights, animal rights, religious rights are considered SHIT and questioning 'why are we better than them?'. You are degenerates, for real. I'll post one last quotation from Sam Harris about why we can OBJECTIVELY call some state of beings 'good' and others 'bad': + Show Spoiler +The people of Albania have a venerable tradition of vendetta called Kanun: if a
man commits a murder, his victim’s family can kill any one of his male relatives in
reprisal. If a boy has the misfortune of being the son or brother of a murderer, he must
spend his days and nights in hiding, forgoing a proper education, adequate health care,
and the pleasures of a normal life. Untold numbers of Albanian men and boys live as
prisoners of their homes even now. 1
Can we say that the Albanians are morally wrong to
have structured their society in this way? Is their tradition of blood feud a form of evil?
Are their values inferior to our own?
[...]
The Bad Life
You are a young widow who has lived her entire life in the midst of civil war.
Today, your seven-year-old daughter was raped and dismembered before your eyes.
Worse still, the perpetrator was your fourteen-year-old son, who was goaded to this evil
at the point of a machete by a press gang of drug-addled soldiers. You are now running
barefoot through the jungle with killers in pursuit. While this is the worst day of your life,
it is not entirely out of character with the other days of your life: since the moment you
were born, your world has been a theater of cruelty and violence. You have never learned
to read, taken a hot shower, or traveled beyond the green hell of the jungle. Even the
luckiest people you have known have experienced little more than an occasional respite
from chronic hunger, fear, apathy, and confusion. Unfortunately, you’ve been very
unlucky, even by these bleak standards. Your life has been one long emergency, and now
it is nearly over.
The Good Life
You are married to the most loving, intelligent, and charismatic person you have
ever met. Both of you have careers that are intellectually stimulating and financially
rewarding. For decades, your wealth and social connections have allowed you to devote
yourself to activities that bring you immense personal satisfaction. One of your greatest
sources of happiness has been to find creative ways to help people who have not had your
good fortune in life. In fact, you have just won a billion-dollar grant to benefit children in
the developing world. If asked, you would say that you could not imagine how your time
on earth could be better spent. Due to a combination of good genes and optimal
circumstances, you and your closest friends and family will live very long, healthy lives,
untouched by crime, sudden bereavements, and other misfortunes.
The examples I have picked, while generic, are nonetheless real—in that they
represent lives that some human beings are likely to be leading at this moment. While
there are surely ways in which this spectrum of suffering and happiness might be
extended, I think these cases indicate the general range of experience that is accessible, in
principle, to most of us. I also think it is indisputable that most of what we do with our
lives is predicated on there being nothing more important, at least for ourselves and for
those closest to us, than the difference between the Bad Life and the Good Life. What's "ours"? How come once we have moved away from the countries that you don't like, we are just one society that has no particularities? Can't I decide that I like France more than Poland? Or Norway more than Italy? Of course, it's not innocent that you have us choose between us and them as if there was no difference between the "us" that you've decided we are. It allows you to excuse everything that's wrong with your society specifically under the pretense that there is worse out there. There is also better out there. You could work toward that, and you choose not to. I'll help you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture
No shit. That's not helping, unfortunately. That's precisely the question I'm asking.
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On July 04 2018 21:57 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2018 21:54 SoSexy wrote:On July 04 2018 21:52 Nebuchad wrote:On July 04 2018 21:09 SoSexy wrote:On July 04 2018 20:11 VHbb wrote:
Wait, is the European culture one of the 'good ones' or not?
After all, we let people drown because we don't want them in our country, is it better than killing people because they are albinos?
Maybe you should make a sketch of which cultures are good and which are bad, then we can decide what to do about it: probably a big war is the best solution, right? I can. I'll start wth some options, and you can decide what it's better and where to live in the world! Would you prefer a society where you get killed if you don't follow a specific religion, or ours? Would you prefer a society where women can't drive and go to cinema, or ours? Would you prefer a society where children are married at 10-12 years old with adult and senile man, or ours? Would you prefer a society that believes in witchcraft and voodoo magic, or ours? Would you prefer a society where a raped woman is stoned to death because it is considered adultery, or ours? If you prefer the first one, go on. Take a plane. It's UNREAL - unreal that young people, born in a country that gives them total freedom are defending societies and cultures where human life, women rights, animal rights, religious rights are considered SHIT and questioning 'why are we better than them?'. You are degenerates, for real. I'll post one last quotation from Sam Harris about why we can OBJECTIVELY call some state of beings 'good' and others 'bad': + Show Spoiler +The people of Albania have a venerable tradition of vendetta called Kanun: if a
man commits a murder, his victim’s family can kill any one of his male relatives in
reprisal. If a boy has the misfortune of being the son or brother of a murderer, he must
spend his days and nights in hiding, forgoing a proper education, adequate health care,
and the pleasures of a normal life. Untold numbers of Albanian men and boys live as
prisoners of their homes even now. 1
Can we say that the Albanians are morally wrong to
have structured their society in this way? Is their tradition of blood feud a form of evil?
Are their values inferior to our own?
[...]
The Bad Life
You are a young widow who has lived her entire life in the midst of civil war.
Today, your seven-year-old daughter was raped and dismembered before your eyes.
Worse still, the perpetrator was your fourteen-year-old son, who was goaded to this evil
at the point of a machete by a press gang of drug-addled soldiers. You are now running
barefoot through the jungle with killers in pursuit. While this is the worst day of your life,
it is not entirely out of character with the other days of your life: since the moment you
were born, your world has been a theater of cruelty and violence. You have never learned
to read, taken a hot shower, or traveled beyond the green hell of the jungle. Even the
luckiest people you have known have experienced little more than an occasional respite
from chronic hunger, fear, apathy, and confusion. Unfortunately, you’ve been very
unlucky, even by these bleak standards. Your life has been one long emergency, and now
it is nearly over.
The Good Life
You are married to the most loving, intelligent, and charismatic person you have
ever met. Both of you have careers that are intellectually stimulating and financially
rewarding. For decades, your wealth and social connections have allowed you to devote
yourself to activities that bring you immense personal satisfaction. One of your greatest
sources of happiness has been to find creative ways to help people who have not had your
good fortune in life. In fact, you have just won a billion-dollar grant to benefit children in
the developing world. If asked, you would say that you could not imagine how your time
on earth could be better spent. Due to a combination of good genes and optimal
circumstances, you and your closest friends and family will live very long, healthy lives,
untouched by crime, sudden bereavements, and other misfortunes.
The examples I have picked, while generic, are nonetheless real—in that they
represent lives that some human beings are likely to be leading at this moment. While
there are surely ways in which this spectrum of suffering and happiness might be
extended, I think these cases indicate the general range of experience that is accessible, in
principle, to most of us. I also think it is indisputable that most of what we do with our
lives is predicated on there being nothing more important, at least for ourselves and for
those closest to us, than the difference between the Bad Life and the Good Life. What's "ours"? How come once we have moved away from the countries that you don't like, we are just one society that has no particularities? Can't I decide that I like France more than Poland? Or Norway more than Italy? Of course, it's not innocent that you have us choose between us and them as if there was no difference between the "us" that you've decided we are. It allows you to excuse everything that's wrong with your society specifically under the pretense that there is worse out there. There is also better out there. You could work toward that, and you choose not to. I'll help you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture No shit. That's not helping, unfortunately.
Can't open the eyes of the blind.
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Wow, we went full circle.
You want to have the moral high-ground comparing "western culture" (not sure what you mean by that but ok) to others, but you are happy leaving people drowning at sea. I'm not sure how you reconcile the two things -- I also don't care, I'm sure you have your own justification.
Apparently already our two cultures are quite different: I don't want to live in a place where you target people by ethnicity (see Roma census), where you refuse help to people in need and more in danger than you, where religion values are higher than science and vaccines are considered a hoax, etc.etc.
Of course, 'your culture' is the best one in your eyes. I'm sure that's true for someone on the 'other side' as well.
I would also ask some of the minorities that belong to your society (e.g. those italian Roma who are actually ITALIAN, not immigrants or refugees) if they agree with you.
edit: ahah ok we are at the 'open your eyes' stage now :D
1 step away from conspiracy theories (well not surprising given the support of M5S and Lega to these ..)
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On July 04 2018 21:58 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2018 21:57 Nebuchad wrote:On July 04 2018 21:54 SoSexy wrote:On July 04 2018 21:52 Nebuchad wrote:On July 04 2018 21:09 SoSexy wrote:On July 04 2018 20:11 VHbb wrote:
Wait, is the European culture one of the 'good ones' or not?
After all, we let people drown because we don't want them in our country, is it better than killing people because they are albinos?
Maybe you should make a sketch of which cultures are good and which are bad, then we can decide what to do about it: probably a big war is the best solution, right? I can. I'll start wth some options, and you can decide what it's better and where to live in the world! Would you prefer a society where you get killed if you don't follow a specific religion, or ours? Would you prefer a society where women can't drive and go to cinema, or ours? Would you prefer a society where children are married at 10-12 years old with adult and senile man, or ours? Would you prefer a society that believes in witchcraft and voodoo magic, or ours? Would you prefer a society where a raped woman is stoned to death because it is considered adultery, or ours? If you prefer the first one, go on. Take a plane. It's UNREAL - unreal that young people, born in a country that gives them total freedom are defending societies and cultures where human life, women rights, animal rights, religious rights are considered SHIT and questioning 'why are we better than them?'. You are degenerates, for real. I'll post one last quotation from Sam Harris about why we can OBJECTIVELY call some state of beings 'good' and others 'bad': + Show Spoiler +The people of Albania have a venerable tradition of vendetta called Kanun: if a
man commits a murder, his victim’s family can kill any one of his male relatives in
reprisal. If a boy has the misfortune of being the son or brother of a murderer, he must
spend his days and nights in hiding, forgoing a proper education, adequate health care,
and the pleasures of a normal life. Untold numbers of Albanian men and boys live as
prisoners of their homes even now. 1
Can we say that the Albanians are morally wrong to
have structured their society in this way? Is their tradition of blood feud a form of evil?
Are their values inferior to our own?
[...]
The Bad Life
You are a young widow who has lived her entire life in the midst of civil war.
Today, your seven-year-old daughter was raped and dismembered before your eyes.
Worse still, the perpetrator was your fourteen-year-old son, who was goaded to this evil
at the point of a machete by a press gang of drug-addled soldiers. You are now running
barefoot through the jungle with killers in pursuit. While this is the worst day of your life,
it is not entirely out of character with the other days of your life: since the moment you
were born, your world has been a theater of cruelty and violence. You have never learned
to read, taken a hot shower, or traveled beyond the green hell of the jungle. Even the
luckiest people you have known have experienced little more than an occasional respite
from chronic hunger, fear, apathy, and confusion. Unfortunately, you’ve been very
unlucky, even by these bleak standards. Your life has been one long emergency, and now
it is nearly over.
The Good Life
You are married to the most loving, intelligent, and charismatic person you have
ever met. Both of you have careers that are intellectually stimulating and financially
rewarding. For decades, your wealth and social connections have allowed you to devote
yourself to activities that bring you immense personal satisfaction. One of your greatest
sources of happiness has been to find creative ways to help people who have not had your
good fortune in life. In fact, you have just won a billion-dollar grant to benefit children in
the developing world. If asked, you would say that you could not imagine how your time
on earth could be better spent. Due to a combination of good genes and optimal
circumstances, you and your closest friends and family will live very long, healthy lives,
untouched by crime, sudden bereavements, and other misfortunes.
The examples I have picked, while generic, are nonetheless real—in that they
represent lives that some human beings are likely to be leading at this moment. While
there are surely ways in which this spectrum of suffering and happiness might be
extended, I think these cases indicate the general range of experience that is accessible, in
principle, to most of us. I also think it is indisputable that most of what we do with our
lives is predicated on there being nothing more important, at least for ourselves and for
those closest to us, than the difference between the Bad Life and the Good Life. What's "ours"? How come once we have moved away from the countries that you don't like, we are just one society that has no particularities? Can't I decide that I like France more than Poland? Or Norway more than Italy? Of course, it's not innocent that you have us choose between us and them as if there was no difference between the "us" that you've decided we are. It allows you to excuse everything that's wrong with your society specifically under the pretense that there is worse out there. There is also better out there. You could work toward that, and you choose not to. I'll help you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture No shit. That's not helping, unfortunately. Can't open the eyes of the blind.
Every time you post like this it's apparent that you're not here to have a conversation.
You are capable of seeing the difference between Italy and Saudi Arabia, because that helps you make a point that people would rather live in Italy than Saudi Arabia. That's true. Once we start asking whether people would rather live in Norway or Italy, suddenly that doesn't help your point anymore, so you act as if those two places are the same under the guise of "western culture". They very clearly aren't the same. But that doesn't help your point, so you're not keen to talk about that.
Btw, let's go with western culture. What are the main features of that? Liberalism is one, so is focus on science and innovation. Are we talking renaissance and the enlightenment, or are we talking christianity and "judeo-christianity"? Those two are opposites.
How come socialism isn't western culture? Pretty sure that originated in the west. At the opposite end, I also remember that we used to be pretty racist in Europe in the past, there was some fascism going on even, now of course we're not anymore and we "don't see race", as you know. But then again, is racism part of western culture?
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sosexy -> I take it you didn't want to reply to my prior reply to you a couple pages back; that's fine, you seem busy and have a lot of other people to respond to. Just keep in mind: while not all or most of the right is racist; there is a significant subportion of the right that is acting racist and fascist (more like authoritarian than fascist to be precise); and as such are being called that because that's in fact what they are.
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On July 04 2018 22:05 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2018 21:58 SoSexy wrote:On July 04 2018 21:57 Nebuchad wrote:On July 04 2018 21:54 SoSexy wrote:On July 04 2018 21:52 Nebuchad wrote:On July 04 2018 21:09 SoSexy wrote:On July 04 2018 20:11 VHbb wrote:
Wait, is the European culture one of the 'good ones' or not?
After all, we let people drown because we don't want them in our country, is it better than killing people because they are albinos?
Maybe you should make a sketch of which cultures are good and which are bad, then we can decide what to do about it: probably a big war is the best solution, right? I can. I'll start wth some options, and you can decide what it's better and where to live in the world! Would you prefer a society where you get killed if you don't follow a specific religion, or ours? Would you prefer a society where women can't drive and go to cinema, or ours? Would you prefer a society where children are married at 10-12 years old with adult and senile man, or ours? Would you prefer a society that believes in witchcraft and voodoo magic, or ours? Would you prefer a society where a raped woman is stoned to death because it is considered adultery, or ours? If you prefer the first one, go on. Take a plane. It's UNREAL - unreal that young people, born in a country that gives them total freedom are defending societies and cultures where human life, women rights, animal rights, religious rights are considered SHIT and questioning 'why are we better than them?'. You are degenerates, for real. I'll post one last quotation from Sam Harris about why we can OBJECTIVELY call some state of beings 'good' and others 'bad': + Show Spoiler +The people of Albania have a venerable tradition of vendetta called Kanun: if a
man commits a murder, his victim’s family can kill any one of his male relatives in
reprisal. If a boy has the misfortune of being the son or brother of a murderer, he must
spend his days and nights in hiding, forgoing a proper education, adequate health care,
and the pleasures of a normal life. Untold numbers of Albanian men and boys live as
prisoners of their homes even now. 1
Can we say that the Albanians are morally wrong to
have structured their society in this way? Is their tradition of blood feud a form of evil?
Are their values inferior to our own?
[...]
The Bad Life
You are a young widow who has lived her entire life in the midst of civil war.
Today, your seven-year-old daughter was raped and dismembered before your eyes.
Worse still, the perpetrator was your fourteen-year-old son, who was goaded to this evil
at the point of a machete by a press gang of drug-addled soldiers. You are now running
barefoot through the jungle with killers in pursuit. While this is the worst day of your life,
it is not entirely out of character with the other days of your life: since the moment you
were born, your world has been a theater of cruelty and violence. You have never learned
to read, taken a hot shower, or traveled beyond the green hell of the jungle. Even the
luckiest people you have known have experienced little more than an occasional respite
from chronic hunger, fear, apathy, and confusion. Unfortunately, you’ve been very
unlucky, even by these bleak standards. Your life has been one long emergency, and now
it is nearly over.
The Good Life
You are married to the most loving, intelligent, and charismatic person you have
ever met. Both of you have careers that are intellectually stimulating and financially
rewarding. For decades, your wealth and social connections have allowed you to devote
yourself to activities that bring you immense personal satisfaction. One of your greatest
sources of happiness has been to find creative ways to help people who have not had your
good fortune in life. In fact, you have just won a billion-dollar grant to benefit children in
the developing world. If asked, you would say that you could not imagine how your time
on earth could be better spent. Due to a combination of good genes and optimal
circumstances, you and your closest friends and family will live very long, healthy lives,
untouched by crime, sudden bereavements, and other misfortunes.
The examples I have picked, while generic, are nonetheless real—in that they
represent lives that some human beings are likely to be leading at this moment. While
there are surely ways in which this spectrum of suffering and happiness might be
extended, I think these cases indicate the general range of experience that is accessible, in
principle, to most of us. I also think it is indisputable that most of what we do with our
lives is predicated on there being nothing more important, at least for ourselves and for
those closest to us, than the difference between the Bad Life and the Good Life. What's "ours"? How come once we have moved away from the countries that you don't like, we are just one society that has no particularities? Can't I decide that I like France more than Poland? Or Norway more than Italy? Of course, it's not innocent that you have us choose between us and them as if there was no difference between the "us" that you've decided we are. It allows you to excuse everything that's wrong with your society specifically under the pretense that there is worse out there. There is also better out there. You could work toward that, and you choose not to. I'll help you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture No shit. That's not helping, unfortunately. Can't open the eyes of the blind. Every time you post like this it's apparent that you're not here to have a conversation. You are capable of seeing the difference between Italy and Saudi Arabia, because that helps you make a point that people would rather live in Italy than Saudi Arabia. That's true. Once we start asking whether people would rather live in Norway or Italy, suddenly that doesn't help your point anymore, so you act as if those two places are the same under the guise of "western culture". They very clearly aren't the same. But that doesn't help your point, so you're not keen to talk about that. Btw, let's go with western culture. What are the main features of that? Liberalism is one, so is focus on science and innovation. Are we talking renaissance and the enlightenment, or are we talking christianity and "judeo-christianity"? Those two are opposites. How come socialism isn't western culture? Pretty sure that originated in the west.
Socialm is western culture and some of its values are embedded in certain articles of our Constitution...your 'let's go with western culture' clearly shows your lack of tools for tackling this concept. You are taking each concept as an isolated chambers - it's not like that. Western culture is made of all those episodes, you can't stay let's take this or that - they all contributed to the tolerant, wonderful (of course with its massive problems) society that we live in. It's the process described by Hegelian dialectics.
Your distinction is also fake. You should not ask would you rather live in Norway or Italy, but would you rather live in Norway/Italy or in Saudi Arabia? 'That does not help my point' precisely because you can't feel a major cultural switch from Norway to Italy (apart from taste, food, weather,etc. Petty things compared to morality, truth, politics)
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On July 04 2018 22:08 zlefin wrote:
sosexy -> I take it you didn't want to reply to my prior reply to you a couple pages back; that's fine, you seem busy and have a lot of other people to respond to. Just keep in mind: while not all or most of the right is racist; there is a significant subportion of the right that is acting racist and fascist (more like authoritarian than fascist to be precise); and as such are being called that because that's in fact what they are.
Sorry, my fingers are burning but I'll take a break soon anyways. I saw your post and I agree with your point. There is a percentage of the right that is racist (actually, I would say there is a percentage that is racist apart from their political side, but I'll concede your point). Now ask yourself: what is the better way to keep this people away from power/make them change?
Is it to engage in a serious discussion, exchange ideas and trying to mold one's beliefs? Or is it to tell them 'you are shit and the party you support is shit'? What do you think will happen if you follow the second road? It's right before our eyes - the rise of the Right in all of Europe and in the US.
I'll throw a little example more, quite detached from politics but funny nonetheless: do you remember when people smoked inside and smoke was generally more accepted? What happened? Simple: there were years of data and discussions, showing that smoking is unhealthy and leads to complications, that smoking inside sticks to your clothes ruining them, etc.. This eventually pushed on with the legislators and now we have smoking rules.
Noone remembers the people telling others 'we should forbid smoking because from my authority I know it's bad and you are an idiot if you deny it'. This behaviour is intellectual masturbation and alienates the masses.
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Why is my distinction fake? I would muuuuuuuch rather live in Norway than in Italy. Why don't I get to say it?
You are right that I don't have the tools for tackling the concept of western culture, that's correct. That's because it's a profoundly vague and unnecessary concept. Western culture is socialism and liberalism and fascism. It's tolerance and enlightenment, but it's also the religious right and racism. It can create someone like me and someone like you. Everytime you make a statement, almost any statement, you negate about half of western culture.
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you are deciding by yourself what is a 'big' and what is a 'small' difference, and then putting together different cultures as much as it helps you argument, and no more.
Italy and France already have huge cultural differences in their view of religion and religious values, that you can experience first hand by living in one or the other: I do think they are different cultures, and I much prefer to live in the second one, but I'm not saying that one is 'good' and one is 'bad'.
If you, in your personal experience (and I'm guessing you don't belong to any group that suffers from particular discrimination or is in danger for the simple fact of being who you are), don't feel any difference between Norway and Italy, that does not mean that they are not there, and you can bundle them together as 'western culture'.
One step more: is US culture western as well? because I feel really really distant from the 'culture' (or society, you use both terms above) of rural US. As distant as I would feel from the society of some places in North Africa or Eastern Europe.
Or: which degree of women rights and recognition do you need to have to be western culture? that varies a lot.
Is marrying them when child not ok, but paying them less ok?
Is not allowing them to abort ok?
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You guys are arguing without defining "a society". And that is what you are basically arguing about to begin with.
I'd personally define "a society" as a set of people who freely accept each other as a member of that society. + Show Spoiler +This usually only makes sense if that society gives itself a set of rules or a purpose, but in theory me and *random person* can form a society without a cause or impact.
Example: A set of people who accepts each other as members and who agree with democratic rule form the democratic society.
Different example: A set of people who accept each other and rule that they accept their current or future offsprings too is a national (by birth) society.
The intersection of these two societies is a national, democratic society. Intersect them with a society that believes in the institution of a state to rule over a specific area and you get another society.
But with each intersection you lose people who only subject themselves to some of these societies, but not all.
That is where our real conflicts come from. That is what you essentially argue about, because each of you is part of a different society and does not accept the other one's. So when you talk about "Italian society" you actually mean different things.
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On July 04 2018 21:54 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2018 21:52 Nebuchad wrote:On July 04 2018 21:09 SoSexy wrote:On July 04 2018 20:11 VHbb wrote:
Wait, is the European culture one of the 'good ones' or not?
After all, we let people drown because we don't want them in our country, is it better than killing people because they are albinos?
Maybe you should make a sketch of which cultures are good and which are bad, then we can decide what to do about it: probably a big war is the best solution, right? I can. I'll start wth some options, and you can decide what it's better and where to live in the world! Would you prefer a society where you get killed if you don't follow a specific religion, or ours? Would you prefer a society where women can't drive and go to cinema, or ours? Would you prefer a society where children are married at 10-12 years old with adult and senile man, or ours? Would you prefer a society that believes in witchcraft and voodoo magic, or ours? Would you prefer a society where a raped woman is stoned to death because it is considered adultery, or ours? If you prefer the first one, go on. Take a plane. It's UNREAL - unreal that young people, born in a country that gives them total freedom are defending societies and cultures where human life, women rights, animal rights, religious rights are considered SHIT and questioning 'why are we better than them?'. You are degenerates, for real. I'll post one last quotation from Sam Harris about why we can OBJECTIVELY call some state of beings 'good' and others 'bad': + Show Spoiler +The people of Albania have a venerable tradition of vendetta called Kanun: if a
man commits a murder, his victim’s family can kill any one of his male relatives in
reprisal. If a boy has the misfortune of being the son or brother of a murderer, he must
spend his days and nights in hiding, forgoing a proper education, adequate health care,
and the pleasures of a normal life. Untold numbers of Albanian men and boys live as
prisoners of their homes even now. 1
Can we say that the Albanians are morally wrong to
have structured their society in this way? Is their tradition of blood feud a form of evil?
Are their values inferior to our own?
[...]
The Bad Life
You are a young widow who has lived her entire life in the midst of civil war.
Today, your seven-year-old daughter was raped and dismembered before your eyes.
Worse still, the perpetrator was your fourteen-year-old son, who was goaded to this evil
at the point of a machete by a press gang of drug-addled soldiers. You are now running
barefoot through the jungle with killers in pursuit. While this is the worst day of your life,
it is not entirely out of character with the other days of your life: since the moment you
were born, your world has been a theater of cruelty and violence. You have never learned
to read, taken a hot shower, or traveled beyond the green hell of the jungle. Even the
luckiest people you have known have experienced little more than an occasional respite
from chronic hunger, fear, apathy, and confusion. Unfortunately, you’ve been very
unlucky, even by these bleak standards. Your life has been one long emergency, and now
it is nearly over.
The Good Life
You are married to the most loving, intelligent, and charismatic person you have
ever met. Both of you have careers that are intellectually stimulating and financially
rewarding. For decades, your wealth and social connections have allowed you to devote
yourself to activities that bring you immense personal satisfaction. One of your greatest
sources of happiness has been to find creative ways to help people who have not had your
good fortune in life. In fact, you have just won a billion-dollar grant to benefit children in
the developing world. If asked, you would say that you could not imagine how your time
on earth could be better spent. Due to a combination of good genes and optimal
circumstances, you and your closest friends and family will live very long, healthy lives,
untouched by crime, sudden bereavements, and other misfortunes.
The examples I have picked, while generic, are nonetheless real—in that they
represent lives that some human beings are likely to be leading at this moment. While
there are surely ways in which this spectrum of suffering and happiness might be
extended, I think these cases indicate the general range of experience that is accessible, in
principle, to most of us. I also think it is indisputable that most of what we do with our
lives is predicated on there being nothing more important, at least for ourselves and for
those closest to us, than the difference between the Bad Life and the Good Life. What's "ours"? How come once we have moved away from the countries that you don't like, we are just one society that has no particularities? Can't I decide that I like France more than Poland? Or Norway more than Italy? Of course, it's not innocent that you have us choose between us and them as if there was no difference between the "us" that you've decided we are. It allows you to excuse everything that's wrong with your society specifically under the pretense that there is worse out there. There is also better out there. You could work toward that, and you choose not to. I'll help you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_cultureThe Western world has been the leading force in the technological and scientific disciplines: whether measured in people or events, 97 percent of accomplishment in the scientific inventories occurred in Europe and North America.
just a little nit pick that is incredibly important.
the western world discovers stuff that is unknown to it, not to the world.
very important to keep that in mind.
of and to be clear, quite a significant share of these "discoveries" is actually done by people you'd not classify as western at first sight.
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On July 04 2018 21:09 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2018 20:11 VHbb wrote:
Wait, is the European culture one of the 'good ones' or not?
After all, we let people drown because we don't want them in our country, is it better than killing people because they are albinos?
Maybe you should make a sketch of which cultures are good and which are bad, then we can decide what to do about it: probably a big war is the best solution, right? I can. I'll start wth some options, and you can decide what it's better and where to live in the world! Would you prefer a society where you get killed if you don't follow a specific religion, or ours? Would you prefer a society where women can't drive and go to cinema, or ours? Would you prefer a society where children are married at 10-12 years old with adult and senile man, or ours? Would you prefer a society that believes in witchcraft and voodoo magic, or ours? Would you prefer a society where a raped woman is stoned to death because it is considered adultery, or ours? If you prefer the first one, go on. Take a plane. It's UNREAL - unreal that young people, born in a country that gives them total freedom are defending societies and cultures where human life, women rights, animal rights, religious rights are considered SHIT and questioning 'why are we better than them?'. You are degenerates, for real. I'll post one last quotation from Sam Harris about why we can OBJECTIVELY call some state of beings 'good' and others 'bad': + Show Spoiler +The people of Albania have a venerable tradition of vendetta called Kanun: if a
man commits a murder, his victim’s family can kill any one of his male relatives in
reprisal. If a boy has the misfortune of being the son or brother of a murderer, he must
spend his days and nights in hiding, forgoing a proper education, adequate health care,
and the pleasures of a normal life. Untold numbers of Albanian men and boys live as
prisoners of their homes even now. 1
Can we say that the Albanians are morally wrong to
have structured their society in this way? Is their tradition of blood feud a form of evil?
Are their values inferior to our own?
[...]
The Bad Life
You are a young widow who has lived her entire life in the midst of civil war.
Today, your seven-year-old daughter was raped and dismembered before your eyes.
Worse still, the perpetrator was your fourteen-year-old son, who was goaded to this evil
at the point of a machete by a press gang of drug-addled soldiers. You are now running
barefoot through the jungle with killers in pursuit. While this is the worst day of your life,
it is not entirely out of character with the other days of your life: since the moment you
were born, your world has been a theater of cruelty and violence. You have never learned
to read, taken a hot shower, or traveled beyond the green hell of the jungle. Even the
luckiest people you have known have experienced little more than an occasional respite
from chronic hunger, fear, apathy, and confusion. Unfortunately, you’ve been very
unlucky, even by these bleak standards. Your life has been one long emergency, and now
it is nearly over.
The Good Life
You are married to the most loving, intelligent, and charismatic person you have
ever met. Both of you have careers that are intellectually stimulating and financially
rewarding. For decades, your wealth and social connections have allowed you to devote
yourself to activities that bring you immense personal satisfaction. One of your greatest
sources of happiness has been to find creative ways to help people who have not had your
good fortune in life. In fact, you have just won a billion-dollar grant to benefit children in
the developing world. If asked, you would say that you could not imagine how your time
on earth could be better spent. Due to a combination of good genes and optimal
circumstances, you and your closest friends and family will live very long, healthy lives,
untouched by crime, sudden bereavements, and other misfortunes.
The examples I have picked, while generic, are nonetheless real—in that they
represent lives that some human beings are likely to be leading at this moment. While
there are surely ways in which this spectrum of suffering and happiness might be
extended, I think these cases indicate the general range of experience that is accessible, in
principle, to most of us. I also think it is indisputable that most of what we do with our
lives is predicated on there being nothing more important, at least for ourselves and for
those closest to us, than the difference between the Bad Life and the Good Life.
And to go off of Sam Harris' bad life example, you support a system where that women makes a desperate bid for freedom, immigration, away from the horror, to start a new life in somewhere far away and better. Italy, say.
And she gets left to drown in a boat because reasons.
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Extensive background checks for immigrants creates a bureaucratic nightmare for immigrants to navigate, where multiple organizations all need to check the same information and where people who do not speak the language and are not familiar with the legal traditions are expected to jump through all these hoops.
In fact, many governments know that this is very arduous and explicitly design their immigration process this way as a deterrent. This sort of mechanism contributes to immigrants being held in legal limbo, instead of being able to contribute to society, learn the language or just move on with their lives.
And this idea that an immigrant can not have proper citizenship for ten years, or ever, and can always arbitrarily be thrown out of the country will lead to exactly what is happening under Donald Trump now, where you have illegal immigration, arbitrary punishment, separating children from family. You will have a culture of informants who get to call immigration services every time they hear someone speaking a non-native language in order to report on them.
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On July 04 2018 22:18 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2018 22:08 zlefin wrote:
sosexy -> I take it you didn't want to reply to my prior reply to you a couple pages back; that's fine, you seem busy and have a lot of other people to respond to. Just keep in mind: while not all or most of the right is racist; there is a significant subportion of the right that is acting racist and fascist (more like authoritarian than fascist to be precise); and as such are being called that because that's in fact what they are. Sorry, my fingers are burning but I'll take a break soon anyways. I saw your post and I agree with your point. There is a percentage of the right that is racist (actually, I would say there is a percentage that is racist apart from their political side, but I'll concede your point). Now ask yourself: what is the better way to keep this people away from power/make them change? Is it to engage in a serious discussion, exchange ideas and trying to mold one's beliefs? Or is it to tell them 'you are shit and the party you support is shit'? What do you think will happen if you follow the second road? It's right before our eyes - the rise of the Right in all of Europe and in the US. I'll throw a little example more, quite detached from politics but funny nonetheless: do you remember when people smoked inside and smoke was generally more accepted? What happened? Simple: there were years of data and discussions, showing that smoking is unhealthy and leads to complications, that smoking inside sticks to your clothes ruining them, etc.. This eventually pushed on with the legislators and now we have smoking rules. Noone remembers the people telling others 'we should forbid smoking because from my authority I know it's bad and you are an idiot if you deny it'. This behaviour is intellectual masturbation and alienates the masses.
this seems to be ignoring the fact that both roads always happen simultaneously.
and that there was plenty of following the first road, and the problem still happened anyways. and that there's a strategic plan from some on the right that specifically focuses on pointing to the users of the second road, and only those, in order to make their supporters feel under attack so they can get their votes. and they magnify the instances of the second road so they seem far more ocmmon than they are in fact.
and that there are quite a few on the right who specifically refuse to engage in a serious discussion. and that in particular, it's not necessary to engage in a serious discussion to gain people's votes; so they can do that and still get plenty of votes.
also note that a lot on the right commit those exact same violations you describe; so where is the rise of the left that should come from them?
there's also of course the corner cases where the second road is correct, and one faction is objectively terrible; but of course they don't like being called out on their own terrible behavior. so they double down on their own bad behavior. it is indeed more effective to overlook their bad behavior to convince them; but that also means letting criminals get away with things, and carries costs of its own.
consider this: the way you talk about Roma you're using the second road yourself quite a bit.
side note: it continues to feel (that is regardless of whether not it actually is, it feels like) that you're trying to put an onus too heavily on the left for what's happened, rather than on the right itself or on structural changes.
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On July 04 2018 22:40 Grumbels wrote:
Extensive background checks for immigrants creates a bureaucratic nightmare for immigrants to navigate, where multiple organizations all need to check the same information and where people who do not speak the language and are not familiar with the legal traditions are expected to jump through all these hoops.
In fact, many governments know that this is very arduous and explicitly design their immigration process this way as a deterrent. This sort of mechanism contributes to immigrants being held in legal limbo, instead of being able to contribute to society, learn the language or just move on with their lives.
And this idea that an immigrant can not have proper citizenship for ten years, or ever, and can always arbitrarily be thrown out of the country will lead to exactly what is happening under Donald Trump now, where you have illegal immigration, arbitrary punishment, separating children from family. You will have a culture of informants who get to call immigration services every time they hear someone speaking a non-native language in order to report on them.
That's 100% what the British system is designed to do, says man whose brother worked in immigration for a time and heard it directly from his bosses.
The problem with it - beyond the obvious racial ones - is that legitimate legal immigrants get swept up in it as well, as has happened a few times with ICE lately.
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One of the things people don’t think about if who THEY would prove they are a citizen of required to on the spot. And how they would protect themselves if some official didn’t believe them or thought their paperwork was a fraud.
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EPT
