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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
Damn, 60 hour work week? What is this, the 1920? You guys bringing back child labor too? Time to break out those old pro labor posters with the 8 hours work, 8 hours family, 8 hours of sleep.
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On July 03 2018 23:21 Silvanel wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2018 22:30 Big J wrote:On July 03 2018 22:16 Silvanel wrote:On July 03 2018 21:08 Puosu wrote:On July 03 2018 20:13 SoSexy wrote:On July 03 2018 16:58 Big J wrote:On July 03 2018 15:32 SoSexy wrote:On July 03 2018 07:35 Dav1oN wrote:On July 03 2018 06:00 sc-darkness wrote:On July 03 2018 05:42 Mafe wrote:
Looks like we're about to become another european asshole nation. What's wrong with protecting border? Honestly - everything is wrong since there is no such thing as border, but that's just my futuristic view  + Show Spoiler + Thanks for the laugh. This thread surely has some hidden pearls in it. Also, Italy's new government surely started to have an effect on the EU. Good. Your post is a perfect demonstration of what's wrong with the right. There are no physical borders, at best you can create obstacles. The biggest obstacles so far have been travel distance and uncertainty. Modern technology has eliminated both of them. And now what? We should waste our economic capabilities and potential on getting rid of the technological progress again? Stop all transports, stop networking and information for some ancient idea of national states that you don't want to give up? Do you even believe what you write? This is absurd propaganda. There are physical borders. When you go to sleep tonight, you will lock your door. Hypocrite. The point is that national borders are socially constructed. They differ from stable, real and inherent parts of reality that exist sans human intervention. Instead national borders (as all social constructs) are inherently unstable, negotiated and changing. Benedict Anderson's Imagined Communities touches on how the concept of nation was invented. The cool thing about social reality is that we can change it -- that is, we may reimagine and redo the meaning of being a citizen, part of a racial group or being an insider or an outsider. Sure we can change it. Just as we can get rid of democracy or voting rights for women or this whole concept of human rights. Just beacuse we can doesnt mean we should. It also doesn't mean we shouldn't. Just because there is a bullshit ideology called conservativism that preaches "we shouldn't" about everything doesn't make a change inherently worse than no change. Of course. But who is going to decide which way should society go? Elected officials? Society at large? Media? Corporations? Everyone has its own idea how things "should" work. People do not agree on that and thats the root of the problem.
Yes, so if you are always wrong in creating a system with those axioms you have, then those axioms are wrong to begin with.
The axiom that you have some fixed society is wrong.
The axiom that that society should "work" in a certain way (by whose criterium of "working" or "functioning"?) is wrong.
The laws and the decision processes we should be looking for are those that guarantee that noone can violate another persons freedom, not those who protect institutions like states, coorperations, contracts for their own sake, or push goals like "economic growth" (which once again is what, by whose measure?)
People didn't build America on the base of "let's make this a huge nation with a lot of wealth", they built it on economic freedom containing three major ingridients:
- they could do what they want and interact how they want
- they allowed others to come and interact with them
- they all started at an equal footing, whether they got wealthy was decided by work, ideas and effort
What conservatives are doing right now is cutting down the bottom two ingridients (or not caring about them) and expecting the same results. That's like believing a differential equation will have the same outcome regardless of boundary conditions. It's just wrong. Your trajectory will look completely different when you start with "everyone has the same and is free" from "everyone has what they parents acquired and is free".
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On July 04 2018 03:23 TheDwf wrote:While right-wing demagogues wave the red flag of migration, they don't forget the class service to their overlords: Show nested quote +Austria: Thousands protest against plans for 12-hour workday
Some 80,000 people took to the streets in Vienna to protest government plans to allow the working day to be extended to 12 hours. Despite calls for a referendum on the issue, the proposal is expected to pass.
Tens of thousands of people in Vienna packed the streets on Saturday to voice their opposition to loosening labor laws to allow for a 12-hour workday and subsequent 60-hour workweek.
Police in Vienna said some 80,000 people took part, while the trade unions that organized the protest said some 100,000 people attended.
"We will resist with all means at our disposal," Wolfgang Katzian, president of the Austrian Trade Union Federation (ÖGB), told the crowd.
Katzian called on the Austrian government to let voters decide on the 12-hour workday issue in a referendum.
Currently, Austria has an eight-hour workday and a 40-hour workweek; however, there's a provision in place allowing companies to have their employees work up to 10 hours a day and up to 50 hours a week.
Pushback over Kurz's plans
It was the first mass demonstration to take place since Austrian Chancellor Sebastian Kurz entered office at the end of 2017.
The right-wing government, comprised of Kurz's conservative People's Party (ÖVP) and the far-right Freedom Party (FPÖ), argued that the changes to the labor laws are needed in order to give businesses more flexibility.
Kurz's government had to roll back certain provisions in their draft law after a heated debate broke out with the opposition over the permitted reasons employees could provide to refuse to work more than 10 hours per day.
The government eventually backed down and said employees will be allowed to refuse to work overtime without giving a reason.
The draft law is expected to be passed by parliament on Thursday. https://www.dw.com/en/austria-thousands-protest-against-plans-for-12-hour-workday/a-44475182@Big J: was it considered a big demonstration?
Yes, it was a big demonstration, but it was out of the news very fast. The far-right boulevard didn't even give it a sole headline, they 50:50 mixed the picture with a nice picture of chancellor Kurz taking the EU presidency and titled "hot and cold for the government" and only that on the upper half of the page, with bottom being about football.
I'm mainly following the conservative and liberal newspapers "diepresse" and "derstandard" and neither of them cares at all about any left agenda like worker rights, wealth taxes or anything of that kind.
So basically the demonstration is already forgotton again.
The only good thing about it is that the FPÖ got quite some bad comments for being traitors etc. Longer workhours without overtime payments hit mainly male workers, which is one of their main clientels.
But all in all the law doesn't change too much for older people, since most of them are in unionized contracts in Austria. It's just another one of those laws like the abolishment of wealth taxes in favor of higher taxes on work and consume, the high pensions, the internet laws etc. that is aimed towards raping younger generations for the wealth and wishes of the old.
On July 04 2018 03:29 Plansix wrote:
Damn, 60 hour work week? What is this, the 1920? You guys bringing back child labor too? Time to break out those old pro labor posters with the 8 hours work, 8 hours family, 8 hours of sleep.
Child labor "at the familiy farm" was in an ideological publication of future goals of the FPÖ, don't make fun of it.
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The constant renewal of border checks isn't in the spirit of the Schengen treaty...
It's just that politicians and populace at different places feel the need to install them as a means of sovereignty over how many poc enter their country.
That they can endlessly be reinstalled afaik is due to a court decision. But I've yet to fully read up on as to why these special conditions stated in the Schengen treaty are so prevalently found in stable Europe.
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Well what the Germans decided to pull was really not in the spirit of the Dublin agreement so there is that....
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To be honest this was the closest to Christian values the CDU will ever get in it's existence. so there's that.
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On July 04 2018 03:47 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2018 03:29 Plansix wrote:
Damn, 60 hour work week? What is this, the 1920? You guys bringing back child labor too? Time to break out those old pro labor posters with the 8 hours work, 8 hours family, 8 hours of sleep. Child labor "at the familiy farm" was in an ideological publication of future goals of the FPÖ, don't make fun of it.
As the son of factory owner, child labor is no joke. I only worked the heavy machinery from age 14 onward.
I am just amazed that 2018 looks like the 1900-1920s across the world. Like 10 years ago I never thought I would see any our countries offer up a 60 hour work week as a thing the people would support. Or that someone could run on building a giant wall to keep out the invaders, I mean immigrants. Or talk about privatizing public education. But here we are.
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On July 04 2018 04:14 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2018 03:47 Big J wrote:On July 04 2018 03:29 Plansix wrote:
Damn, 60 hour work week? What is this, the 1920? You guys bringing back child labor too? Time to break out those old pro labor posters with the 8 hours work, 8 hours family, 8 hours of sleep. Child labor "at the familiy farm" was in an ideological publication of future goals of the FPÖ, don't make fun of it. As the son of factory owner, child labor is no joke. I only worked the heavy machinery from age 14 onward. I am just amazed that 2018 looks like the 1900-1920s across the world. Like 10 years ago I never thought I would see any our countries offer up a 60 hour work week as a thing the people would support. Or that someone could run on building a giant wall to keep out the invaders, I mean immigrants. Or talk about privatizing public education. But here we are.
Looks at reality, which is people using market weigths (democratic weights, money, ownership rights etc.) within regulations (as far as they are socially executed) for their own good.
Looks at birth distribution of market weights in 1900-1920.
Looks at birth distribution of market weights in 2018.
Nope, absolutely no surprise.
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https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:52016PC0593 a proposal to reform EU copyright laws to be voted in the EU parliament on the 5th. it's controversial to say the least with italian wiki closing for two days in protest.
some words on it: https://www.wired.com/story/europe-considers-a-new-copyright-law-heres-why-that-matters/ ...a committee in the EU's legislative branch approved a proposed model copyright law that would likely lead many apps and websites to screen uploaded content using automated filters to detect copyrighted material. The proposal will now move to a vote by the full European Parliament.
The effect would be similar to how YouTube tries to detect and block copyrighted audio and video from being posted on its site, but it would be applied to all types of content, including text, images, and software, as well as audio and video. Critics say this section of the proposal, Article 13, would lead to legitimate content, such as satire or short excerpts, being blocked even outside the EU.
Another section of the proposal would require online services to pay news publications for using their content. This has been widely referred to as a "link tax," but hyperlinks and search engine listings are specifically exempted in the most recent draft of the directive shared by European Parliament member Julia Reda, a member of the Pirate Party Germany. The rules are widely seen as a way to force services like Facebook and Twitter that show short snippets or other previews of news stories to pay a fee to publishers, but the draft doesn't make clear whether snippets would still be OK and, if so, how long they can be. The impact on Google is also unclear, as some of the material it displays, like its “featured snippet” information boxes, may not be considered search-engine listings. the wording/text of Art.11 and Art.13 look very unfinished and noobish/clueless; or why not, purposely evil.
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On July 04 2018 04:31 xM(Z wrote:https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:52016PC0593 a proposal to reform EU copyright laws to be voted in the EU parliament on the 5th. it's controversial to say the least with italian wiki closing for two days in protest. some words on it: https://www.wired.com/story/europe-considers-a-new-copyright-law-heres-why-that-matters/ Show nested quote +...a committee in the EU's legislative branch approved a proposed model copyright law that would likely lead many apps and websites to screen uploaded content using automated filters to detect copyrighted material. The proposal will now move to a vote by the full European Parliament.
The effect would be similar to how YouTube tries to detect and block copyrighted audio and video from being posted on its site, but it would be applied to all types of content, including text, images, and software, as well as audio and video. Critics say this section of the proposal, Article 13, would lead to legitimate content, such as satire or short excerpts, being blocked even outside the EU.
Another section of the proposal would require online services to pay news publications for using their content. This has been widely referred to as a "link tax," but hyperlinks and search engine listings are specifically exempted in the most recent draft of the directive shared by European Parliament member Julia Reda, a member of the Pirate Party Germany. The rules are widely seen as a way to force services like Facebook and Twitter that show short snippets or other previews of news stories to pay a fee to publishers, but the draft doesn't make clear whether snippets would still be OK and, if so, how long they can be. The impact on Google is also unclear, as some of the material it displays, like its “featured snippet” information boxes, may not be considered search-engine listings. the wording/text of Art.11 and Art.13 look very unfinished and noobish/clueless; or why not, purposely evil.
Heil conservativism! For though you may make laws that only benefit those that don't want to compete with young and better individuals!
User was warned for this post
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On July 04 2018 03:19 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2018 21:49 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On July 03 2018 21:40 SoSexy wrote:On July 03 2018 21:18 TheDwf wrote:On July 03 2018 20:13 SoSexy wrote:On July 03 2018 16:58 Big J wrote:On July 03 2018 15:32 SoSexy wrote:On July 03 2018 07:35 Dav1oN wrote:On July 03 2018 06:00 sc-darkness wrote:On July 03 2018 05:42 Mafe wrote:
Looks like we're about to become another european asshole nation. What's wrong with protecting border? Honestly - everything is wrong since there is no such thing as border, but that's just my futuristic view + Show Spoiler + Thanks for the laugh. This thread surely has some hidden pearls in it. Also, Italy's new government surely started to have an effect on the EU. Good. Your post is a perfect demonstration of what's wrong with the right. There are no physical borders, at best you can create obstacles. The biggest obstacles so far have been travel distance and uncertainty. Modern technology has eliminated both of them. And now what? We should waste our economic capabilities and potential on getting rid of the technological progress again? Stop all transports, stop networking and information for some ancient idea of national states that you don't want to give up? Do you even believe what you write? This is absurd propaganda. There are physical borders. When you go to sleep tonight, you will lock your door. Hypocrite. Oh, so this is why the right thinks the way it does: it confuses nations with apartments! Exactly. Millions of people are voting right because they confuse nations with apartments. Not because there are issues that the other parties keep neglecting and won't touch I'm not sure if you are serious, or just missed the point sosexy. Why don't you just write what you really mean, instead of just insinuating that you truly don't know the difference between a nation and an apartment? I was ironic, of course. But reading these comments make me still wonder about the myopia of the left. This type of rhetoric (accept everyone, no borders, right voters are racists, whoever doesn't think the way I think is a fascist) put Trump into power, gave Brexit an incredible assist, then put in power Orban, Kurtz and now Conte (even though the Italian situation is different and 5s are not a right movement per se - now you will say it is, but it is not and the voters breakdown I posted some time ago showed that clearly). How long does this process of self-destruction want to continue? Maybe the left should take one step back, go 'we FUCKED UP HARD' and start to rebuild its base. But no, better calling everyone else racist and fascist from the height of...what exactly?
it's a complex process, so hard to say how long it will last. and there's a clearly a tactical benefit to the rhetoric, or left politicians wouldn't be doing it. from past history of similar events; some of them will last around a decade I guess.
it'll be hard to stop some of those rhetorics, since some of them are true. For some people it's difficult to give up on the truth.
of course it's not like the right is a paragon of clear vision either; so the myopia would be more universal rather than being one of the left specifically. I wonder about the myopia of the right all the time, and their failure to take stock of their mistakes adequately.
I could easily make mistakes on these notes since i'm more used to the american uses of left/right than the euro ones.
as an aside, it seems odd to ascribe all those things so heavily to leftist rhetoric, rather than the rightist rhetoric which would seem to be more proximate, or the beliefs of the people who voted the way they did, or various long term structural changes in the world.
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On July 03 2018 20:15 Sent. wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2018 18:09 Toadesstern wrote:On July 03 2018 15:08 LegalLord wrote:
Her tenure has shown that she’s nothing if not opportunistic. From “open the floodgates” to this, hardly a matter at all.
The opposition doesn’t really seem strong or united enough to outright defeat her, though. I expect more of the same for quite a while longer. yeah agree. I mean opportunistic is how you call it, her supporters would say she's willing to jump over her own shadow and do what her voters (or germans in generell) want instead of hardlining something she feels like she needs to do. Same with nuclear a couple years ago. Merkel was a really big supporter of nuclear energy. Then fukushima happened and people in Germany felt really shitty about nuclear power. She didn't get into office with this image of a "green" chancelor, she got it during her years in office because she changed her positions into that direction after realizing that it's a good wagon to be on. I just don't see an alternative on the horizon. As much as Danglars probably wants it the AfD is polling in the 15% range and not in the 50% they need to govern. The CDU is still heads ahead of everyone else, Seehofer has lost way more in this than Merkel did (even though it hurt both), and I don't see anyone rising up to the task either. Neither someone new in the CDU nor someone elsewhere (I'm looking at you SPD). The SPD also seems to have it hard in this political climate just for the sake of being politically to the left of the CDU. This whole idea that Merkel will be dethroned and the right will rise (if we're believing our ambassador to the US in germany) just completly falls apart the moment you realize that all the alternatives are politically to the left of her and that we tend to need coalitions for governments over here. Even if the AfD somehow gets tons of voters, they'll never get 50+ % in a 6 party stystem which means they'd have to team up with someone and we're back at step1. I feel the only realistic way for this to change is a shift to left. And I don't see that happen in the current political climate. Why is it unrealistic to assume Merkel may step down before the next election to let another (possibly more conservative) CDU politician take her place? That's obviously assuming Germans with right-wing views would want that and I'm not saying they certainly will, I'm just questioning the claim that there is no alternative other than SPD-lead coalition.
Merkel doesn't look like someone who would step down and she has this ability to come out of things looking better even if there should be no way for her.
I don't think CDU voters impression of her went down during this whole thing at all. If anything she's probably more popular among her voters. The CDU probably lost voters and she lost among non-CDU voters but I don't think it's an issue for her within the party unless someone else steps up and pushes her out.
Exclusive: China presses Europe for anti-U.S. alliance on trade
BRUSSELS/BERLIN (Reuters) - China is putting pressure on the European Union to issue a strong joint statement against President Donald Trump’s trade policies at a summit later this month but is facing resistance, European officials said.
In meetings in Brussels, Berlin and Beijing, senior Chinese officials, including Vice Premier Liu He and the Chinese government’s top diplomat, State Councillor Wang Yi, have proposed an alliance between the two economic powers and offered to open more of the Chinese market in a gesture of goodwill.
One proposal has been for China and the European Union to launch joint action against the United States at the World Trade Organisation.
But the European Union, the world’s largest trading bloc, has rejected the idea of allying with Beijing against Washington, five EU officials and diplomats told Reuters, ahead of a Sino-European summit in Beijing on July 16-17.
[...]
sad to see them reject this kind of idea. They're still afraid that if they lash out too much at Trump that that will only make things worse. Still hoping they can get on his good side when it's clear he wants to EU to fall apart so that the US has more influence over single, seperate countries.
China at least doesn't want us gone~
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On July 04 2018 05:00 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2018 20:15 Sent. wrote:On July 03 2018 18:09 Toadesstern wrote:On July 03 2018 15:08 LegalLord wrote:
Her tenure has shown that she’s nothing if not opportunistic. From “open the floodgates” to this, hardly a matter at all.
The opposition doesn’t really seem strong or united enough to outright defeat her, though. I expect more of the same for quite a while longer. yeah agree. I mean opportunistic is how you call it, her supporters would say she's willing to jump over her own shadow and do what her voters (or germans in generell) want instead of hardlining something she feels like she needs to do. Same with nuclear a couple years ago. Merkel was a really big supporter of nuclear energy. Then fukushima happened and people in Germany felt really shitty about nuclear power. She didn't get into office with this image of a "green" chancelor, she got it during her years in office because she changed her positions into that direction after realizing that it's a good wagon to be on. I just don't see an alternative on the horizon. As much as Danglars probably wants it the AfD is polling in the 15% range and not in the 50% they need to govern. The CDU is still heads ahead of everyone else, Seehofer has lost way more in this than Merkel did (even though it hurt both), and I don't see anyone rising up to the task either. Neither someone new in the CDU nor someone elsewhere (I'm looking at you SPD). The SPD also seems to have it hard in this political climate just for the sake of being politically to the left of the CDU. This whole idea that Merkel will be dethroned and the right will rise (if we're believing our ambassador to the US in germany) just completly falls apart the moment you realize that all the alternatives are politically to the left of her and that we tend to need coalitions for governments over here. Even if the AfD somehow gets tons of voters, they'll never get 50+ % in a 6 party stystem which means they'd have to team up with someone and we're back at step1. I feel the only realistic way for this to change is a shift to left. And I don't see that happen in the current political climate. Why is it unrealistic to assume Merkel may step down before the next election to let another (possibly more conservative) CDU politician take her place? That's obviously assuming Germans with right-wing views would want that and I'm not saying they certainly will, I'm just questioning the claim that there is no alternative other than SPD-lead coalition. Merkel doesn't look like someone who would step down and she has this ability to come out of things looking better even if there should be no way for her. I don't think CDU voters impression of her went down during this whole thing at all. If anything she's probably more popular among her voters. The CDU probably lost voters and she lost among non-CDU voters but I don't think it's an issue for her within the party unless someone else steps up and pushes her out. Show nested quote +Exclusive: China presses Europe for anti-U.S. alliance on trade
BRUSSELS/BERLIN (Reuters) - China is putting pressure on the European Union to issue a strong joint statement against President Donald Trump’s trade policies at a summit later this month but is facing resistance, European officials said.
In meetings in Brussels, Berlin and Beijing, senior Chinese officials, including Vice Premier Liu He and the Chinese government’s top diplomat, State Councillor Wang Yi, have proposed an alliance between the two economic powers and offered to open more of the Chinese market in a gesture of goodwill.
One proposal has been for China and the European Union to launch joint action against the United States at the World Trade Organisation.
But the European Union, the world’s largest trading bloc, has rejected the idea of allying with Beijing against Washington, five EU officials and diplomats told Reuters, ahead of a Sino-European summit in Beijing on July 16-17.
[...] sad to see them reject this kind of idea. They're still afraid that if they lash out too much at Trump that that will only make things worse. Still hoping they can get on his good side when it's clear he wants to EU to fall apart so that the US has more influence over single, seperate countries. China at least doesn't want us gone~
The problem is that a lot of the practices that Trump dislike about China are disliked in the EU as well. So if we join them in a statement we weaken the US claim against China in the WTO when we might be wanting to lift the same issues.
That the US is doing things badly is true, does not mean that we should by default like how China is doing things. Even if it is slightly better currently.
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On July 04 2018 05:25 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2018 05:00 Toadesstern wrote:On July 03 2018 20:15 Sent. wrote:On July 03 2018 18:09 Toadesstern wrote:On July 03 2018 15:08 LegalLord wrote:
Her tenure has shown that she’s nothing if not opportunistic. From “open the floodgates” to this, hardly a matter at all.
The opposition doesn’t really seem strong or united enough to outright defeat her, though. I expect more of the same for quite a while longer. yeah agree. I mean opportunistic is how you call it, her supporters would say she's willing to jump over her own shadow and do what her voters (or germans in generell) want instead of hardlining something she feels like she needs to do. Same with nuclear a couple years ago. Merkel was a really big supporter of nuclear energy. Then fukushima happened and people in Germany felt really shitty about nuclear power. She didn't get into office with this image of a "green" chancelor, she got it during her years in office because she changed her positions into that direction after realizing that it's a good wagon to be on. I just don't see an alternative on the horizon. As much as Danglars probably wants it the AfD is polling in the 15% range and not in the 50% they need to govern. The CDU is still heads ahead of everyone else, Seehofer has lost way more in this than Merkel did (even though it hurt both), and I don't see anyone rising up to the task either. Neither someone new in the CDU nor someone elsewhere (I'm looking at you SPD). The SPD also seems to have it hard in this political climate just for the sake of being politically to the left of the CDU. This whole idea that Merkel will be dethroned and the right will rise (if we're believing our ambassador to the US in germany) just completly falls apart the moment you realize that all the alternatives are politically to the left of her and that we tend to need coalitions for governments over here. Even if the AfD somehow gets tons of voters, they'll never get 50+ % in a 6 party stystem which means they'd have to team up with someone and we're back at step1. I feel the only realistic way for this to change is a shift to left. And I don't see that happen in the current political climate. Why is it unrealistic to assume Merkel may step down before the next election to let another (possibly more conservative) CDU politician take her place? That's obviously assuming Germans with right-wing views would want that and I'm not saying they certainly will, I'm just questioning the claim that there is no alternative other than SPD-lead coalition. Merkel doesn't look like someone who would step down and she has this ability to come out of things looking better even if there should be no way for her. I don't think CDU voters impression of her went down during this whole thing at all. If anything she's probably more popular among her voters. The CDU probably lost voters and she lost among non-CDU voters but I don't think it's an issue for her within the party unless someone else steps up and pushes her out. Exclusive: China presses Europe for anti-U.S. alliance on trade
BRUSSELS/BERLIN (Reuters) - China is putting pressure on the European Union to issue a strong joint statement against President Donald Trump’s trade policies at a summit later this month but is facing resistance, European officials said.
In meetings in Brussels, Berlin and Beijing, senior Chinese officials, including Vice Premier Liu He and the Chinese government’s top diplomat, State Councillor Wang Yi, have proposed an alliance between the two economic powers and offered to open more of the Chinese market in a gesture of goodwill.
One proposal has been for China and the European Union to launch joint action against the United States at the World Trade Organisation.
But the European Union, the world’s largest trading bloc, has rejected the idea of allying with Beijing against Washington, five EU officials and diplomats told Reuters, ahead of a Sino-European summit in Beijing on July 16-17.
[...] sad to see them reject this kind of idea. They're still afraid that if they lash out too much at Trump that that will only make things worse. Still hoping they can get on his good side when it's clear he wants to EU to fall apart so that the US has more influence over single, seperate countries. China at least doesn't want us gone~ The problem is that a lot of the practices that Trump dislike about China are disliked in the EU as well. So if we join them in a statement we weaken the US claim against China in the WTO when we might be wanting to lift the same issues. That the US is doing things badly is true, does not mean that we should by default like how China is doing things. Even if it is slightly better currently.
Rejecting China in this case is a good move. The US even with trump is more open to trade and FDI than China. As long as China doesn't materially change its protectionism there's really little reason to cooperate with them.
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On July 04 2018 03:23 TheDwf wrote:While right-wing demagogues wave the red flag of migration, they don't forget the class service to their overlords: Show nested quote +Austria: Thousands protest against plans for 12-hour workday
Some 80,000 people took to the streets in Vienna to protest government plans to allow the working day to be extended to 12 hours. Despite calls for a referendum on the issue, the proposal is expected to pass.
Tens of thousands of people in Vienna packed the streets on Saturday to voice their opposition to loosening labor laws to allow for a 12-hour workday and subsequent 60-hour workweek.
Police in Vienna said some 80,000 people took part, while the trade unions that organized the protest said some 100,000 people attended.
"We will resist with all means at our disposal," Wolfgang Katzian, president of the Austrian Trade Union Federation (ÖGB), told the crowd.
Katzian called on the Austrian government to let voters decide on the 12-hour workday issue in a referendum.
Currently, Austria has an eight-hour workday and a 40-hour workweek; however, there's a provision in place allowing companies to have their employees work up to 10 hours a day and up to 50 hours a week.
Pushback over Kurz's plans
It was the first mass demonstration to take place since Austrian Chancellor Sebastian Kurz entered office at the end of 2017.
The right-wing government, comprised of Kurz's conservative People's Party (ÖVP) and the far-right Freedom Party (FPÖ), argued that the changes to the labor laws are needed in order to give businesses more flexibility.
Kurz's government had to roll back certain provisions in their draft law after a heated debate broke out with the opposition over the permitted reasons employees could provide to refuse to work more than 10 hours per day.
The government eventually backed down and said employees will be allowed to refuse to work overtime without giving a reason.
The draft law is expected to be passed by parliament on Thursday. https://www.dw.com/en/austria-thousands-protest-against-plans-for-12-hour-workday/a-44475182@Big J: was it considered a big demonstration? The world moves towards shorter workdays as productivity increases but somehow Austria wants to run the other way?
And allowing workers to refuse without reason is nice. Tobad it means you get fired at the earliest opportunity. And something tells me a government that wants to allow a 12h workday is also fine with relaxing firing regulations.
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On July 04 2018 04:00 Artisreal wrote:
The constant renewal of border checks isn't in the spirit of the Schengen treaty...
It's just that politicians and populace at different places feel the need to install them as a means of sovereignty over how many poc enter their country.
That they can endlessly be reinstalled afaik is due to a court decision. But I've yet to fully read up on as to why these special conditions stated in the Schengen treaty are so prevalently found in stable Europe.
What's even the point of the Schengen treaty if nations can cite arbitrary reasons for reintroducing border controls? I think we'll find that these treaties which are written by committee and have dozens of countries participating in them, can be interpreted in any way possible, it's only about whether there is political will behind enforcing a certain interpretation.
My opinion is that we should all say: Schengen = open borders = freedom of movement, and if this is tampered with there should be demonstrations and riots.
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I like how people does not get the idea that any border is an artificial thing which derives from our close-to-monkeys ancestors, which prevents people from moving freely  You need a piece of paper with signatures to make a step left/right on the same planet, common planet.
In addition - national pride has 0 value, patriotism has 0 value. Racism is a cancer of our society and needs to be cured step by step (with a couple of other issues like religion). Arrogance and ignorance of some users here is just beyond any reasoning.
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On July 04 2018 03:19 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2018 21:49 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On July 03 2018 21:40 SoSexy wrote:On July 03 2018 21:18 TheDwf wrote:On July 03 2018 20:13 SoSexy wrote:On July 03 2018 16:58 Big J wrote:On July 03 2018 15:32 SoSexy wrote:On July 03 2018 07:35 Dav1oN wrote:On July 03 2018 06:00 sc-darkness wrote:On July 03 2018 05:42 Mafe wrote:
Looks like we're about to become another european asshole nation. What's wrong with protecting border? Honestly - everything is wrong since there is no such thing as border, but that's just my futuristic view + Show Spoiler + Thanks for the laugh. This thread surely has some hidden pearls in it. Also, Italy's new government surely started to have an effect on the EU. Good. Your post is a perfect demonstration of what's wrong with the right. There are no physical borders, at best you can create obstacles. The biggest obstacles so far have been travel distance and uncertainty. Modern technology has eliminated both of them. And now what? We should waste our economic capabilities and potential on getting rid of the technological progress again? Stop all transports, stop networking and information for some ancient idea of national states that you don't want to give up? Do you even believe what you write? This is absurd propaganda. There are physical borders. When you go to sleep tonight, you will lock your door. Hypocrite. Oh, so this is why the right thinks the way it does: it confuses nations with apartments! Exactly. Millions of people are voting right because they confuse nations with apartments. Not because there are issues that the other parties keep neglecting and won't touch I'm not sure if you are serious, or just missed the point sosexy. Why don't you just write what you really mean, instead of just insinuating that you truly don't know the difference between a nation and an apartment? I was ironic, of course. But reading these comments make me still wonder about the myopia of the left. This type of rhetoric (accept everyone, no borders, right voters are racists, whoever doesn't think the way I think is a fascist) put Trump into power, gave Brexit an incredible assist, then put in power Orban, Kurtz and now Conte (even though the Italian situation is different and 5s are not a right movement per se - now you will say it is, but it is not and the voters breakdown I posted some time ago showed that clearly). How long does this process of self-destruction want to continue? Maybe the left should take one step back, go 'we FUCKED UP HARD' and start to rebuild its base. But no, better calling everyone else racist and fascist from the height of...what exactly?
The length you people go through to avoid having to interact with anyone with a different skin colour is so beyond pathetic.
Racism shouldn't be placated, it should be destroyed and racists should be publicly shamed and purged from any position of power. It's absurd to have to listen to people like you threatening that if we won't allow you your precious ethnostate you will throw a temper tantrum and destroy the world, and act like the left is the side being myopic and how the left should grow up.
What is myopic is to look at the history of the world and not realize that whiteness and nationality are social constructs and can arbitrarily be extended if only there was the political will to do so. And to not realize that immigrants and the poor have always been marginalized and that xenophobes have always complained about them using whatever spurious justifications they can concoct.
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On July 04 2018 06:04 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2018 05:25 Yurie wrote:On July 04 2018 05:00 Toadesstern wrote:On July 03 2018 20:15 Sent. wrote:On July 03 2018 18:09 Toadesstern wrote:On July 03 2018 15:08 LegalLord wrote:
Her tenure has shown that she’s nothing if not opportunistic. From “open the floodgates” to this, hardly a matter at all.
The opposition doesn’t really seem strong or united enough to outright defeat her, though. I expect more of the same for quite a while longer. yeah agree. I mean opportunistic is how you call it, her supporters would say she's willing to jump over her own shadow and do what her voters (or germans in generell) want instead of hardlining something she feels like she needs to do. Same with nuclear a couple years ago. Merkel was a really big supporter of nuclear energy. Then fukushima happened and people in Germany felt really shitty about nuclear power. She didn't get into office with this image of a "green" chancelor, she got it during her years in office because she changed her positions into that direction after realizing that it's a good wagon to be on. I just don't see an alternative on the horizon. As much as Danglars probably wants it the AfD is polling in the 15% range and not in the 50% they need to govern. The CDU is still heads ahead of everyone else, Seehofer has lost way more in this than Merkel did (even though it hurt both), and I don't see anyone rising up to the task either. Neither someone new in the CDU nor someone elsewhere (I'm looking at you SPD). The SPD also seems to have it hard in this political climate just for the sake of being politically to the left of the CDU. This whole idea that Merkel will be dethroned and the right will rise (if we're believing our ambassador to the US in germany) just completly falls apart the moment you realize that all the alternatives are politically to the left of her and that we tend to need coalitions for governments over here. Even if the AfD somehow gets tons of voters, they'll never get 50+ % in a 6 party stystem which means they'd have to team up with someone and we're back at step1. I feel the only realistic way for this to change is a shift to left. And I don't see that happen in the current political climate. Why is it unrealistic to assume Merkel may step down before the next election to let another (possibly more conservative) CDU politician take her place? That's obviously assuming Germans with right-wing views would want that and I'm not saying they certainly will, I'm just questioning the claim that there is no alternative other than SPD-lead coalition. Merkel doesn't look like someone who would step down and she has this ability to come out of things looking better even if there should be no way for her. I don't think CDU voters impression of her went down during this whole thing at all. If anything she's probably more popular among her voters. The CDU probably lost voters and she lost among non-CDU voters but I don't think it's an issue for her within the party unless someone else steps up and pushes her out. Exclusive: China presses Europe for anti-U.S. alliance on trade
BRUSSELS/BERLIN (Reuters) - China is putting pressure on the European Union to issue a strong joint statement against President Donald Trump’s trade policies at a summit later this month but is facing resistance, European officials said.
In meetings in Brussels, Berlin and Beijing, senior Chinese officials, including Vice Premier Liu He and the Chinese government’s top diplomat, State Councillor Wang Yi, have proposed an alliance between the two economic powers and offered to open more of the Chinese market in a gesture of goodwill.
One proposal has been for China and the European Union to launch joint action against the United States at the World Trade Organisation.
But the European Union, the world’s largest trading bloc, has rejected the idea of allying with Beijing against Washington, five EU officials and diplomats told Reuters, ahead of a Sino-European summit in Beijing on July 16-17.
[...] sad to see them reject this kind of idea. They're still afraid that if they lash out too much at Trump that that will only make things worse. Still hoping they can get on his good side when it's clear he wants to EU to fall apart so that the US has more influence over single, seperate countries. China at least doesn't want us gone~ The problem is that a lot of the practices that Trump dislike about China are disliked in the EU as well. So if we join them in a statement we weaken the US claim against China in the WTO when we might be wanting to lift the same issues. That the US is doing things badly is true, does not mean that we should by default like how China is doing things. Even if it is slightly better currently. Rejecting China in this case is a good move. The US even with trump is more open to trade and FDI than China. As long as China doesn't materially change its protectionism there's really little reason to cooperate with them.
As Friedman was fond of pointing out, Chinese protectionism hurts China, nobody else. If China wants to subsidize its companies and sell everyone else cheap stuff while investing their capital abroad, that's actually a really good deal for us.
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On July 04 2018 06:41 Dav1oN wrote:I like how people does not get the idea that any border is an artificial thing which derives from our close-to-monkeys ancestors, which prevents people from moving freely You need a piece of paper with signatures to make a step left/right on the same planet, common planet. In addition - national pride has 0 value, patriotism has 0 value. Racism is a cancer of our society and needs to be cured step by step (with a couple of other issues like religion). Arrogance and ignorance of some users here is just beyond any reasoning.
So edgy, be careful you don't cut yourself there...
Here is a wild idea: Maybe we understand your argument against borders but disagree with the conclusions you arrive at? Or are you too arrogant and ignorant to even contemplate such a possibility? Also, there is quite a lot of value to e.g. national pride. It is part of the cohesiveness which keeps a civilized society functioning.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://img.purch.com/w/660/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5saXZlc2NpZW5jZS5jb20vaW1hZ2VzL2kvMDAwLzAyNy8yNTMvb3JpZ2luYWwvYmx1ZS1tYXJibGUuanBn)
