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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On July 03 2018 20:13 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2018 16:58 Big J wrote:On July 03 2018 15:32 SoSexy wrote:On July 03 2018 07:35 Dav1oN wrote:On July 03 2018 06:00 sc-darkness wrote:On July 03 2018 05:42 Mafe wrote:
Looks like we're about to become another european asshole nation. What's wrong with protecting border? Honestly - everything is wrong since there is no such thing as border, but that's just my futuristic view  + Show Spoiler + Thanks for the laugh. This thread surely has some hidden pearls in it. Also, Italy's new government surely started to have an effect on the EU. Good. Your post is a perfect demonstration of what's wrong with the right. There are no physical borders, at best you can create obstacles. The biggest obstacles so far have been travel distance and uncertainty. Modern technology has eliminated both of them. And now what? We should waste our economic capabilities and potential on getting rid of the technological progress again? Stop all transports, stop networking and information for some ancient idea of national states that you don't want to give up? Do you even believe what you write? This is absurd propaganda. There are physical borders. When you go to sleep tonight, you will lock your door. Hypocrite.
First things first, your description is plainly wrong.
I don't own a flat, I am one of those scum-people who hold hardly any rights to anything in this world besides my own live. I have no door. I lock the door of the rightful owner of the flat, but I have no right to do so against his will for as long as I would want to. So at best I am creating a border that I actually have only temporary control over. A certain way to lose my contract rights would be to create a full scale border between me and my landlord that intends to stop our economic and physical relations.
There can be physical borders, or rather obstacles. The formerly useful ones don't work anymore. Now you want politics to force me to spend money for your nationalistic fetishism to create new borders. Well, I prefer blondes, brunettes, redheads... over jerking of to some arbitrary bullshit claim over which people belong together and which don't. I just don't get hard from it, I am sorry.
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On July 03 2018 20:13 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2018 16:58 Big J wrote:On July 03 2018 15:32 SoSexy wrote:On July 03 2018 07:35 Dav1oN wrote:On July 03 2018 06:00 sc-darkness wrote:On July 03 2018 05:42 Mafe wrote:
Looks like we're about to become another european asshole nation. What's wrong with protecting border? Honestly - everything is wrong since there is no such thing as border, but that's just my futuristic view + Show Spoiler + Thanks for the laugh. This thread surely has some hidden pearls in it. Also, Italy's new government surely started to have an effect on the EU. Good. Your post is a perfect demonstration of what's wrong with the right. There are no physical borders, at best you can create obstacles. The biggest obstacles so far have been travel distance and uncertainty. Modern technology has eliminated both of them. And now what? We should waste our economic capabilities and potential on getting rid of the technological progress again? Stop all transports, stop networking and information for some ancient idea of national states that you don't want to give up? Do you even believe what you write? This is absurd propaganda. There are physical borders. When you go to sleep tonight, you will lock your door. Hypocrite.
The point is that national borders are socially constructed. They differ from stable, real and inherent parts of reality that exist sans human intervention. Instead national borders (as all social constructs) are inherently unstable, negotiated and changing. Benedict Anderson's Imagined Communities touches on how the concept of nation was invented. The cool thing about social reality is that we can change it -- that is, we may reimagine and redo the meaning of being a citizen, part of a racial group or being an insider or an outsider.
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On July 03 2018 20:13 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2018 16:58 Big J wrote:On July 03 2018 15:32 SoSexy wrote:On July 03 2018 07:35 Dav1oN wrote:On July 03 2018 06:00 sc-darkness wrote:On July 03 2018 05:42 Mafe wrote:
Looks like we're about to become another european asshole nation. What's wrong with protecting border? Honestly - everything is wrong since there is no such thing as border, but that's just my futuristic view + Show Spoiler + Thanks for the laugh. This thread surely has some hidden pearls in it. Also, Italy's new government surely started to have an effect on the EU. Good. Your post is a perfect demonstration of what's wrong with the right. There are no physical borders, at best you can create obstacles. The biggest obstacles so far have been travel distance and uncertainty. Modern technology has eliminated both of them. And now what? We should waste our economic capabilities and potential on getting rid of the technological progress again? Stop all transports, stop networking and information for some ancient idea of national states that you don't want to give up? Do you even believe what you write? This is absurd propaganda. There are physical borders. When you go to sleep tonight, you will lock your door. Hypocrite.
Oh, so this is why the right thinks the way it does: it confuses nations with apartments!
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On July 03 2018 18:05 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2018 17:55 Ghostcom wrote:On July 03 2018 07:15 Big J wrote:On July 03 2018 07:01 sc-darkness wrote:On July 03 2018 06:27 Big J wrote:On July 03 2018 06:00 sc-darkness wrote:On July 03 2018 05:42 Mafe wrote:
Looks like we're about to become another european asshole nation. What's wrong with protecting border? It violates Schengen, free trade and free movement within the EU. I happened to be in my hometown at the German border the day Germany introduced border controls. It is not very funny to suddenly have every street of a small town jammed for a few days, in particular for those people who had to wait 3 hours for a 15km drive to get to work on the German side. This obviously does have a very negative impact on European market structures and their development. That is why every politician in Europe that is thinking about more than "what measures may keep me in power" still prefers a European solution. Ok, I thought you were talking about refugees, but I'm not sure what you mean now when you say free movement within the EU. Every EU citizen goes to any EU country they want. What's the problem? Is there any news except Brexit? How do you find a refugee at a border without limiting the movement for everyone? The reality is one of waiting times, controls and surveillance for everyone at the border, which is a violation of Schengen. The border controls that are currently established are not in violation of Schengen as they are temporary and to protect the internal integrity and security of the countries which have established them (as specifically established as legal in the Schengen agreement article 25). Stop lying. Since January 2016 Denmark has turned away more than 5000 people at their borders as a consequence. It's not all just "populist" politics despite what you try and make it seem. I said it is wrong, not that it is illegal. The temporary limits for overriding Schengen have been reached. It's not a national decision anymore, the commission could legally demand open borders at this point.
You said it is a violation. I have you quoted verbatim. You were wrong - admit it and move on.
EDIT. As for your new argument: Even that is dubious at best and the EU commission has yet to want to take the battle which would require the EU court to decide - experts are split on whether or not they could actually do it.
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On July 03 2018 21:23 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2018 18:05 Big J wrote:On July 03 2018 17:55 Ghostcom wrote:On July 03 2018 07:15 Big J wrote:On July 03 2018 07:01 sc-darkness wrote:On July 03 2018 06:27 Big J wrote:On July 03 2018 06:00 sc-darkness wrote:On July 03 2018 05:42 Mafe wrote:
Looks like we're about to become another european asshole nation. What's wrong with protecting border? It violates Schengen, free trade and free movement within the EU. I happened to be in my hometown at the German border the day Germany introduced border controls. It is not very funny to suddenly have every street of a small town jammed for a few days, in particular for those people who had to wait 3 hours for a 15km drive to get to work on the German side. This obviously does have a very negative impact on European market structures and their development. That is why every politician in Europe that is thinking about more than "what measures may keep me in power" still prefers a European solution. Ok, I thought you were talking about refugees, but I'm not sure what you mean now when you say free movement within the EU. Every EU citizen goes to any EU country they want. What's the problem? Is there any news except Brexit? How do you find a refugee at a border without limiting the movement for everyone? The reality is one of waiting times, controls and surveillance for everyone at the border, which is a violation of Schengen. The border controls that are currently established are not in violation of Schengen as they are temporary and to protect the internal integrity and security of the countries which have established them (as specifically established as legal in the Schengen agreement article 25). Stop lying. Since January 2016 Denmark has turned away more than 5000 people at their borders as a consequence. It's not all just "populist" politics despite what you try and make it seem. I said it is wrong, not that it is illegal. The temporary limits for overriding Schengen have been reached. It's not a national decision anymore, the commission could legally demand open borders at this point. You said it is a violation. I have you quoted verbatim. You were wrong - admit it and move on.
I am not a law expert, so maybe not applying Schengen for some time is part of Schengen itself and you are right.
But the literal translation of what has been communicated over and over again in German is that "Schengen has been suspended to make those border controls possible".
According to that Schengen is not in power at the moment in some states, however if it were not suspended, it would be a violation. At least that is what has been communicated.
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On July 03 2018 21:18 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2018 20:13 SoSexy wrote:On July 03 2018 16:58 Big J wrote:On July 03 2018 15:32 SoSexy wrote:On July 03 2018 07:35 Dav1oN wrote:On July 03 2018 06:00 sc-darkness wrote:On July 03 2018 05:42 Mafe wrote:
Looks like we're about to become another european asshole nation. What's wrong with protecting border? Honestly - everything is wrong since there is no such thing as border, but that's just my futuristic view + Show Spoiler + Thanks for the laugh. This thread surely has some hidden pearls in it. Also, Italy's new government surely started to have an effect on the EU. Good. Your post is a perfect demonstration of what's wrong with the right. There are no physical borders, at best you can create obstacles. The biggest obstacles so far have been travel distance and uncertainty. Modern technology has eliminated both of them. And now what? We should waste our economic capabilities and potential on getting rid of the technological progress again? Stop all transports, stop networking and information for some ancient idea of national states that you don't want to give up? Do you even believe what you write? This is absurd propaganda. There are physical borders. When you go to sleep tonight, you will lock your door. Hypocrite. Oh, so this is why the right thinks the way it does: it confuses nations with apartments!
Exactly. Millions of people are voting right because they confuse nations with apartments. Not because there are issues that the other parties keep neglecting and won't touch
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On July 03 2018 21:08 Puosu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2018 20:13 SoSexy wrote:On July 03 2018 16:58 Big J wrote:On July 03 2018 15:32 SoSexy wrote:On July 03 2018 07:35 Dav1oN wrote:On July 03 2018 06:00 sc-darkness wrote:On July 03 2018 05:42 Mafe wrote:
Looks like we're about to become another european asshole nation. What's wrong with protecting border? Honestly - everything is wrong since there is no such thing as border, but that's just my futuristic view + Show Spoiler + Thanks for the laugh. This thread surely has some hidden pearls in it. Also, Italy's new government surely started to have an effect on the EU. Good. Your post is a perfect demonstration of what's wrong with the right. There are no physical borders, at best you can create obstacles. The biggest obstacles so far have been travel distance and uncertainty. Modern technology has eliminated both of them. And now what? We should waste our economic capabilities and potential on getting rid of the technological progress again? Stop all transports, stop networking and information for some ancient idea of national states that you don't want to give up? Do you even believe what you write? This is absurd propaganda. There are physical borders. When you go to sleep tonight, you will lock your door. Hypocrite. The point is that national borders are socially constructed. They differ from stable, real and inherent parts of reality that exist sans human intervention. Instead national borders (as all social constructs) are inherently unstable, negotiated and changing. Benedict Anderson's Imagined Communities touches on how the concept of nation was invented. The cool thing about social reality is that we can change it -- that is, we may reimagine and redo the meaning of being a citizen, part of a racial group or being an insider or an outsider.
I agree with this and further suggest that interested folks give Mr. Anderson's work a read. It's pretty good.
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On July 03 2018 21:40 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2018 21:18 TheDwf wrote:On July 03 2018 20:13 SoSexy wrote:On July 03 2018 16:58 Big J wrote:On July 03 2018 15:32 SoSexy wrote:On July 03 2018 07:35 Dav1oN wrote:On July 03 2018 06:00 sc-darkness wrote:On July 03 2018 05:42 Mafe wrote:
Looks like we're about to become another european asshole nation. What's wrong with protecting border? Honestly - everything is wrong since there is no such thing as border, but that's just my futuristic view + Show Spoiler + Thanks for the laugh. This thread surely has some hidden pearls in it. Also, Italy's new government surely started to have an effect on the EU. Good. Your post is a perfect demonstration of what's wrong with the right. There are no physical borders, at best you can create obstacles. The biggest obstacles so far have been travel distance and uncertainty. Modern technology has eliminated both of them. And now what? We should waste our economic capabilities and potential on getting rid of the technological progress again? Stop all transports, stop networking and information for some ancient idea of national states that you don't want to give up? Do you even believe what you write? This is absurd propaganda. There are physical borders. When you go to sleep tonight, you will lock your door. Hypocrite. Oh, so this is why the right thinks the way it does: it confuses nations with apartments! Exactly. Millions of people are voting right because they confuse nations with apartments. Not because there are issues that the other parties keep neglecting and won't touch
I'm not sure if you are serious, or just missed the point sosexy. Why don't you just write what you really mean, instead of just insinuating that you truly don't know the difference between a nation and an apartment?
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On July 03 2018 21:08 Puosu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2018 20:13 SoSexy wrote:On July 03 2018 16:58 Big J wrote:On July 03 2018 15:32 SoSexy wrote:On July 03 2018 07:35 Dav1oN wrote:On July 03 2018 06:00 sc-darkness wrote:On July 03 2018 05:42 Mafe wrote:
Looks like we're about to become another european asshole nation. What's wrong with protecting border? Honestly - everything is wrong since there is no such thing as border, but that's just my futuristic view + Show Spoiler + Thanks for the laugh. This thread surely has some hidden pearls in it. Also, Italy's new government surely started to have an effect on the EU. Good. Your post is a perfect demonstration of what's wrong with the right. There are no physical borders, at best you can create obstacles. The biggest obstacles so far have been travel distance and uncertainty. Modern technology has eliminated both of them. And now what? We should waste our economic capabilities and potential on getting rid of the technological progress again? Stop all transports, stop networking and information for some ancient idea of national states that you don't want to give up? Do you even believe what you write? This is absurd propaganda. There are physical borders. When you go to sleep tonight, you will lock your door. Hypocrite. The point is that national borders are socially constructed. They differ from stable, real and inherent parts of reality that exist sans human intervention. Instead national borders (as all social constructs) are inherently unstable, negotiated and changing. Benedict Anderson's Imagined Communities touches on how the concept of nation was invented. The cool thing about social reality is that we can change it -- that is, we may reimagine and redo the meaning of being a citizen, part of a racial group or being an insider or an outsider.
Sure we can change it. Just as we can get rid of democracy or voting rights for women or this whole concept of human rights. Just beacuse we can doesnt mean we should.
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On July 03 2018 22:16 Silvanel wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2018 21:08 Puosu wrote:On July 03 2018 20:13 SoSexy wrote:On July 03 2018 16:58 Big J wrote:On July 03 2018 15:32 SoSexy wrote:On July 03 2018 07:35 Dav1oN wrote:On July 03 2018 06:00 sc-darkness wrote:On July 03 2018 05:42 Mafe wrote:
Looks like we're about to become another european asshole nation. What's wrong with protecting border? Honestly - everything is wrong since there is no such thing as border, but that's just my futuristic view + Show Spoiler + Thanks for the laugh. This thread surely has some hidden pearls in it. Also, Italy's new government surely started to have an effect on the EU. Good. Your post is a perfect demonstration of what's wrong with the right. There are no physical borders, at best you can create obstacles. The biggest obstacles so far have been travel distance and uncertainty. Modern technology has eliminated both of them. And now what? We should waste our economic capabilities and potential on getting rid of the technological progress again? Stop all transports, stop networking and information for some ancient idea of national states that you don't want to give up? Do you even believe what you write? This is absurd propaganda. There are physical borders. When you go to sleep tonight, you will lock your door. Hypocrite. The point is that national borders are socially constructed. They differ from stable, real and inherent parts of reality that exist sans human intervention. Instead national borders (as all social constructs) are inherently unstable, negotiated and changing. Benedict Anderson's Imagined Communities touches on how the concept of nation was invented. The cool thing about social reality is that we can change it -- that is, we may reimagine and redo the meaning of being a citizen, part of a racial group or being an insider or an outsider. Sure we can change it. Just as we can get rid of democracy or voting rights for women or this whole concept of human rights. Just beacuse we can doesnt mean we should.
It also doesn't mean we shouldn't. Just because there is a bullshit ideology called conservativism that preaches "we shouldn't" about everything doesn't make a change inherently worse than no change.
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On July 03 2018 21:34 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2018 21:23 Ghostcom wrote:On July 03 2018 18:05 Big J wrote:On July 03 2018 17:55 Ghostcom wrote:On July 03 2018 07:15 Big J wrote:On July 03 2018 07:01 sc-darkness wrote:On July 03 2018 06:27 Big J wrote:On July 03 2018 06:00 sc-darkness wrote:On July 03 2018 05:42 Mafe wrote:
Looks like we're about to become another european asshole nation. What's wrong with protecting border? It violates Schengen, free trade and free movement within the EU. I happened to be in my hometown at the German border the day Germany introduced border controls. It is not very funny to suddenly have every street of a small town jammed for a few days, in particular for those people who had to wait 3 hours for a 15km drive to get to work on the German side. This obviously does have a very negative impact on European market structures and their development. That is why every politician in Europe that is thinking about more than "what measures may keep me in power" still prefers a European solution. Ok, I thought you were talking about refugees, but I'm not sure what you mean now when you say free movement within the EU. Every EU citizen goes to any EU country they want. What's the problem? Is there any news except Brexit? How do you find a refugee at a border without limiting the movement for everyone? The reality is one of waiting times, controls and surveillance for everyone at the border, which is a violation of Schengen. The border controls that are currently established are not in violation of Schengen as they are temporary and to protect the internal integrity and security of the countries which have established them (as specifically established as legal in the Schengen agreement article 25). Stop lying. Since January 2016 Denmark has turned away more than 5000 people at their borders as a consequence. It's not all just "populist" politics despite what you try and make it seem. I said it is wrong, not that it is illegal. The temporary limits for overriding Schengen have been reached. It's not a national decision anymore, the commission could legally demand open borders at this point. You said it is a violation. I have you quoted verbatim. You were wrong - admit it and move on. I am not a law expert, so maybe not applying Schengen for some time is part of Schengen itself and you are right. But the literal translation of what has been communicated over and over again in German is that "Schengen has been suspended to make those border controls possible". According to that Schengen is not in power at the moment in some states, however if it were not suspended, it would be a violation. At least that is what has been communicated.
I have no idea what you are being told in German. The law on the other hand is quite clear:
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32013R1051
The Schengen agreement is NOT being violated. The re-introduction of border control is right there in article 25 of the Schengen agreement.
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On July 03 2018 22:30 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2018 22:16 Silvanel wrote:On July 03 2018 21:08 Puosu wrote:On July 03 2018 20:13 SoSexy wrote:On July 03 2018 16:58 Big J wrote:On July 03 2018 15:32 SoSexy wrote:On July 03 2018 07:35 Dav1oN wrote:On July 03 2018 06:00 sc-darkness wrote:On July 03 2018 05:42 Mafe wrote:
Looks like we're about to become another european asshole nation. What's wrong with protecting border? Honestly - everything is wrong since there is no such thing as border, but that's just my futuristic view + Show Spoiler + Thanks for the laugh. This thread surely has some hidden pearls in it. Also, Italy's new government surely started to have an effect on the EU. Good. Your post is a perfect demonstration of what's wrong with the right. There are no physical borders, at best you can create obstacles. The biggest obstacles so far have been travel distance and uncertainty. Modern technology has eliminated both of them. And now what? We should waste our economic capabilities and potential on getting rid of the technological progress again? Stop all transports, stop networking and information for some ancient idea of national states that you don't want to give up? Do you even believe what you write? This is absurd propaganda. There are physical borders. When you go to sleep tonight, you will lock your door. Hypocrite. The point is that national borders are socially constructed. They differ from stable, real and inherent parts of reality that exist sans human intervention. Instead national borders (as all social constructs) are inherently unstable, negotiated and changing. Benedict Anderson's Imagined Communities touches on how the concept of nation was invented. The cool thing about social reality is that we can change it -- that is, we may reimagine and redo the meaning of being a citizen, part of a racial group or being an insider or an outsider. Sure we can change it. Just as we can get rid of democracy or voting rights for women or this whole concept of human rights. Just beacuse we can doesnt mean we should. It also doesn't mean we shouldn't. Just because there is a bullshit ideology called conservativism that preaches "we shouldn't" about everything doesn't make a change inherently worse than no change.
Of course. But who is going to decide which way should society go? Elected officials? Society at large? Media? Corporations? Everyone has its own idea how things "should" work. People do not agree on that and thats the root of the problem.
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On July 03 2018 23:11 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2018 21:34 Big J wrote:On July 03 2018 21:23 Ghostcom wrote:On July 03 2018 18:05 Big J wrote:On July 03 2018 17:55 Ghostcom wrote:On July 03 2018 07:15 Big J wrote:On July 03 2018 07:01 sc-darkness wrote:On July 03 2018 06:27 Big J wrote:On July 03 2018 06:00 sc-darkness wrote:On July 03 2018 05:42 Mafe wrote:
Looks like we're about to become another european asshole nation. What's wrong with protecting border? It violates Schengen, free trade and free movement within the EU. I happened to be in my hometown at the German border the day Germany introduced border controls. It is not very funny to suddenly have every street of a small town jammed for a few days, in particular for those people who had to wait 3 hours for a 15km drive to get to work on the German side. This obviously does have a very negative impact on European market structures and their development. That is why every politician in Europe that is thinking about more than "what measures may keep me in power" still prefers a European solution. Ok, I thought you were talking about refugees, but I'm not sure what you mean now when you say free movement within the EU. Every EU citizen goes to any EU country they want. What's the problem? Is there any news except Brexit? How do you find a refugee at a border without limiting the movement for everyone? The reality is one of waiting times, controls and surveillance for everyone at the border, which is a violation of Schengen. The border controls that are currently established are not in violation of Schengen as they are temporary and to protect the internal integrity and security of the countries which have established them (as specifically established as legal in the Schengen agreement article 25). Stop lying. Since January 2016 Denmark has turned away more than 5000 people at their borders as a consequence. It's not all just "populist" politics despite what you try and make it seem. I said it is wrong, not that it is illegal. The temporary limits for overriding Schengen have been reached. It's not a national decision anymore, the commission could legally demand open borders at this point. You said it is a violation. I have you quoted verbatim. You were wrong - admit it and move on. I am not a law expert, so maybe not applying Schengen for some time is part of Schengen itself and you are right. But the literal translation of what has been communicated over and over again in German is that "Schengen has been suspended to make those border controls possible". According to that Schengen is not in power at the moment in some states, however if it were not suspended, it would be a violation. At least that is what has been communicated. I have no idea what you are being told in German. The law on the other hand is quite clear: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32013R1051The Schengen agreement is NOT being violated. The re-introduction of border control is right there in article 25 of the Schengen agreement.
In case of imminent danger they can be set up to 6 months at a time and reinstatet for another 6 months indefinitely.
Threat of terrorism (constant or for singular events) or a threat to inner security due to refugee movements are current justifications for that.
Source
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So why does Big J say it’s a violation of Schengen when it’s literally written in the text and 2-3 correct him?
Is it widespread ignorance of what’s in the agreement, or some political stance about its interpretation?
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Well we should probably give him the benefit of the doubt and go with widespread ignorance coupled with poor choice of words most likely.
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I grant that I hear a lot of people call something a violation of the law when they really mean they disagree with the law itself or have some alternative policy preference coordinated with a private interpretation of the law.
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After thinking about it for a day I guess this is not so bad for the SPD. Merkel will be gone next election and the CDU will steer more right, creating space for the SPD to grow into. The problem will be in hard selling their victories during the current coalition (and the last and the one before :D), which will bring centre-left voters more to Linke / Grüne.
If the governing coalition doesn't break apart until then.
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On July 04 2018 02:38 Danglars wrote:
I grant that I hear a lot of people call something a violation of the law when they really mean they disagree with the law itself or have some alternative policy preference coordinated with a private interpretation of the law.
It's not really a private interpretation. Schengen has been presented to me as the abolishment of borders within the Schengenarea from early age, through school times, through media.
I very much agree though with the spirit of an axiomatical discussion. In that sense I am clearly wrong.
+ Show Spoiler +Although in an axiomatical discussion no law would hold, since they usually either contradict each other literally, or leave room for interpretation (so they hold not well-defined definitions). So in a truely logical sense the law systems allow for any conclusions, including whatever anyone says.
But that's just brambling about law, it doesn't change that I was wrong due to being underinformed and using the word "Schengen" instead of "free movement area within europe" or something else, not law-related
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On July 03 2018 21:49 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2018 21:40 SoSexy wrote:On July 03 2018 21:18 TheDwf wrote:On July 03 2018 20:13 SoSexy wrote:On July 03 2018 16:58 Big J wrote:On July 03 2018 15:32 SoSexy wrote:On July 03 2018 07:35 Dav1oN wrote:On July 03 2018 06:00 sc-darkness wrote:On July 03 2018 05:42 Mafe wrote:
Looks like we're about to become another european asshole nation. What's wrong with protecting border? Honestly - everything is wrong since there is no such thing as border, but that's just my futuristic view + Show Spoiler + Thanks for the laugh. This thread surely has some hidden pearls in it. Also, Italy's new government surely started to have an effect on the EU. Good. Your post is a perfect demonstration of what's wrong with the right. There are no physical borders, at best you can create obstacles. The biggest obstacles so far have been travel distance and uncertainty. Modern technology has eliminated both of them. And now what? We should waste our economic capabilities and potential on getting rid of the technological progress again? Stop all transports, stop networking and information for some ancient idea of national states that you don't want to give up? Do you even believe what you write? This is absurd propaganda. There are physical borders. When you go to sleep tonight, you will lock your door. Hypocrite. Oh, so this is why the right thinks the way it does: it confuses nations with apartments! Exactly. Millions of people are voting right because they confuse nations with apartments. Not because there are issues that the other parties keep neglecting and won't touch I'm not sure if you are serious, or just missed the point sosexy. Why don't you just write what you really mean, instead of just insinuating that you truly don't know the difference between a nation and an apartment?
I was ironic, of course. But reading these comments make me still wonder about the myopia of the left. This type of rhetoric (accept everyone, no borders, right voters are racists, whoever doesn't think the way I think is a fascist) put Trump into power, gave Brexit an incredible assist, then put in power Orban, Kurtz and now Conte (even though the Italian situation is different and 5s are not a right movement per se - now you will say it is, but it is not and the voters breakdown I posted some time ago showed that clearly).
How long does this process of self-destruction want to continue? Maybe the left should take one step back, go 'we FUCKED UP HARD' and start to rebuild its base. But no, better calling everyone else racist and fascist from the height of...what exactly?
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While right-wing demagogues wave the red flag of migration, they don't forget the class service to their overlords:
Austria: Thousands protest against plans for 12-hour workday
Some 80,000 people took to the streets in Vienna to protest government plans to allow the working day to be extended to 12 hours. Despite calls for a referendum on the issue, the proposal is expected to pass.
Tens of thousands of people in Vienna packed the streets on Saturday to voice their opposition to loosening labor laws to allow for a 12-hour workday and subsequent 60-hour workweek.
Police in Vienna said some 80,000 people took part, while the trade unions that organized the protest said some 100,000 people attended.
"We will resist with all means at our disposal," Wolfgang Katzian, president of the Austrian Trade Union Federation (ÖGB), told the crowd.
Katzian called on the Austrian government to let voters decide on the 12-hour workday issue in a referendum.
Currently, Austria has an eight-hour workday and a 40-hour workweek; however, there's a provision in place allowing companies to have their employees work up to 10 hours a day and up to 50 hours a week.
Pushback over Kurz's plans
It was the first mass demonstration to take place since Austrian Chancellor Sebastian Kurz entered office at the end of 2017.
The right-wing government, comprised of Kurz's conservative People's Party (ÖVP) and the far-right Freedom Party (FPÖ), argued that the changes to the labor laws are needed in order to give businesses more flexibility.
Kurz's government had to roll back certain provisions in their draft law after a heated debate broke out with the opposition over the permitted reasons employees could provide to refuse to work more than 10 hours per day.
The government eventually backed down and said employees will be allowed to refuse to work overtime without giving a reason.
The draft law is expected to be passed by parliament on Thursday.
https://www.dw.com/en/austria-thousands-protest-against-plans-for-12-hour-workday/a-44475182
@Big J: was it considered a big demonstration?
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EPT![[image loading]](https://img.purch.com/w/660/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5saXZlc2NpZW5jZS5jb20vaW1hZ2VzL2kvMDAwLzAyNy8yNTMvb3JpZ2luYWwvYmx1ZS1tYXJibGUuanBn)
