|
Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On July 05 2018 18:20 hitthat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2018 08:33 Dav1oN wrote:On July 05 2018 02:02 Ghostcom wrote:On July 04 2018 19:53 Dav1oN wrote:On July 04 2018 14:02 Ghostcom wrote:On July 04 2018 06:41 Dav1oN wrote:I like how people does not get the idea that any border is an artificial thing which derives from our close-to-monkeys ancestors, which prevents people from moving freely  You need a piece of paper with signatures to make a step left/right on the same planet, common planet. In addition - national pride has 0 value, patriotism has 0 value. Racism is a cancer of our society and needs to be cured step by step (with a couple of other issues like religion). Arrogance and ignorance of some users here is just beyond any reasoning. So edgy, be careful you don't cut yourself there... Here is a wild idea: Maybe we understand your argument against borders but disagree with the conclusions you arrive at? Or are you too arrogant and ignorant to even contemplate such a possibility? Also, there is quite a lot of value to e.g. national pride. It is part of the cohesiveness which keeps a civilized society functioning. I'm not afraid to bleed if it's necessary. The point is that we got common ancestors as a species, that's why artificial "national pride" matters not. The same thing with borders. These things made to divide and conquer. We're all on the same chunk of dust floating in open space where nothing lives. It is possible to keep a society functioning with appreciation to culture differences and without borders, but i'm not sure politicians all over the world interested in these sort of solutions. About national pride...Is it worth anything except for boosting a personal ego for no reason? What is this thing so called national pride? How it works and benefits? It doesn't make you better or smarter then anyone esle, it doesn't make you more useful, it just makes you feel proud for no reason One more thing, people tend to operate with a personal cognitive selectivity, meaning they are wrong most of the times (e.g cannibalism tragedy happens very rarely but it doesn't mean the whole nationalities does it), not even realising - the easiest person to fool is yourself. Well that was just my IMO Out of curiosity: what is your educational background? EDIT: I realized this might come off as arrogant or as a way to write you off, but I assure you I am truly curious. Nah, it's okay to ask, I don't mind IT background, programmer-analyst. At some point I understand that my personal point of view on a modern world/social structure might look a bit twisted in others eyes...but I dream and "belive" in a better world to be made by humans, for humans and nature around us on a single and small blue planet which we're calling home. It would take some time (possibly few centuries) to achieve with lot's of difficulties, yet it looks possible to me to get to the good results. I am cynical believer in chaos theory being the right one and so I dont see o society. I see milions individuals around and "system" of the mutual dependencies that is trying to restrict their more destructive urges.
The part withthe individuals is just reality. Any entity like a society that is not formally defined from that fact is esoterics and noble wishing at best.
That the system restricts the destructive urges is the liberal dreamy but most people believe in bullshit like order for the sake of order, religion and what not. So the actual goals of this system are just left-wing wealth dreams (who decides what is wealth?) or right-wing esoterics. It goes crazy every now and then, because the reality simply doesnt meet the esoterical goals but people dont want to take responsibility for asking for impossible things, so they rather blame each other for not acting according to plan.
|
On July 04 2018 19:29 Grumbels wrote:
I'll also add my general opinion that the United States and the European Union don't have a moral right to close their borders, given that a sizable portion of their wealth is extracted from third world countries and given the (on-going) legacy of colonialism. I think it's good for the world if there is more migration to Europe. If we want international solidarity in the face of war, famine, climate-change, we would benefit having more multicultural societies. And we would benefit from wealth flowing from Europe to e.g. Africa.
While I don't necessarily object to the idea of open borders because I'm pretty much of the same mindset as Dav1on pointed out, I did think there were too many people in the Netherlands back when there were just 15 million of us cycling around on this very tiny slice of land, so I'm going to find some excuses to "close the borders":
What about the notion that taking only the smartest, hardest working people from Africa (which are the ones who are most easily accepted in our immigration system) is effectively draining Africa of a lot of intellectual hard-working people? Even refugees are entrepreneurial enough to escape whatever they're fleeing from. We're hardly taking any Africans at all, to be fair, but if you add on top of this the notion that those same Africans who attend our universities often end up working at Western research labs and thus contributing to Western intellectual property -- that they themselves, as mere employees, do not own -- are they genuinely bringing any wealth to Africa at all? It seems to me that it's much like the rising wealth inequality problem -- the wealthy West gains more from this arrangement than the poor rest of the world.
Meanwhile, instead of working to fundamentally improve Africa by working with Africans, the billionaires that are benefiting from the exploitation are effectively just pouring charity on Africa while still exploiting their natural resources, for which we effectively give them climate change (and famine and war) in return along with the charity. As the saying goes: charity is the opiate of capitalism. I'm always reminded of that documentary where some European guy brought some chocolate to an African working in the cacao fields and the African dude going "oh, this tastes nice, what's this?" I mean, are you fucking kidding me? That doesn't sit right with me at all. Not to mention that, as far as I know, the West continues to dominate the financial systems that contribute to keeping Africa poor and destitute.
Further, when it comes to the "borders" and "culture" discussion, I see a lot of value in maintaining the various national cultures that exist in Europe. I don't like the media atmosphere in the United States at all. It's a good thing -- to some extent -- that we all live in our own little national media bubbles and have our own customs and such. I wouldn't personally want to intrude on African or Middle Eastern cultures either, and whether you like it or not, the sad reality of human nature as it stands now dictates that it does create conflict. Multiculturalism apparently seems to dictate to society that we must give up some freedoms in order to achieve this -- some people won't be allowed to wear head scarfs in certain locations, while others are, through "social means", deprived of their freedom to publish pictures of Muhammad.
|
On July 05 2018 01:29 VHbb wrote:I disagree, I think part of the problem is also rooted in how people behave towards other, and how people feel justified in un-compassionate behavior. In my personal view, it's not only a matter of politics and policies, I see a big disconnect in some of SoSexy posts, between what he argues being "good culture" and how he would behave towards others in need. Expecting a migrant to be speaking the language of the country he's moving to is absurd, especially if you want to redistribute them in all Europe, where each country has a different language. You learn the language while you're there. p.s. thanks for the "colorful" language, though "retarded" it's not super nice 
People are not arguing for redistributing immigrants, but redistributing refugees. Immigrants are a different problem altogether, at least economic ones that for the most part are nothing but a strain on the system.
These are two different things. It has nothing to do with compassion. On multiple levels. First, you're running a country, not a charity. I don't argue for or against SoSexy, i don't decide what "good culture" is. I don't really care either. Of course i feel bad for people having to flee their country (for those who actually do need to), but on the other hand, if it's about safety, why isn't "safety" good enough? As for example the Lifeline who got finally confiscated in Malta, they're safe now aren't they? So why did the majority already announce that they want to go to france?
These are actual problems, and i can absolutely understand someone from france questioning why they should pay for people that are already safe where they are. They arrived in Malta as refugees, but turned into economic migrants from there.
The big ass problem here is simply, again, welfare states aren't in unlimited supply. They don't print money, people are paying out of their pocket to support people. Now i'm fine with helping people in need, and i do give to charity if i feel like it, but i'm not fine with "helping" people because in germany they get more money from the state than they'd get in from where ever they came from - all the while pensioners have to collect plastic bottles at the airport or go straight to the welfare offices because the pension that they worked for 45 years is barely enough to pay the rent.
People see this, and they vote accordingly. In case you haven't noticed, i don't want the AfD to succeed in germany, or the FN in france. If politicians keep going, that's where we will end up, and things can only go downhill from there. Not just for one country, but for all, since the EU will not survive multiple eu-critical countries (especially not if it's germany, france and other big players). People argued that "oh we'll never leave the EU", surprise. People argued that Trump would never make it president, surprise. People are arguing that the AfD will never lead germany, you get the idea.
edit: sidenote, since it wasn't clear: absolutely should immigrants to be expected to speak the language of the country they're migrating to, and obviously the legal traditions too. Just imagine a blonde hot girl migrating to Saudi Arabia for whatever reason, lying half naked in front of a mosque. Like it's ridiculous what you're arguing.
PS: i'm, in a sense, a migrant too btw.
|
Wonderful post, m4ini. Especially the part about the pensioners hit close to home. It's a recorring topic - my town welcomed 30 immigrants from Ghana. They live in this house just outside the city center, usually they spend the day biking around and by evening they return there. The other day I was in the city center and I eavesdropped a conversation between some pensioners, who were saying things like 'Why do these people get everything for free and my wife has to pay for heart medications? We've both worked and lived here all our life and paid all the taxes'.
The left can't provide an answer, otherwise they wouldn't be hemorrhaging votes. All they can do is point the finger and shout slogans like 'you are being racist even if you don't know it!'. A sad, sad display.
|
On July 05 2018 20:02 SoSexy wrote:
Wonderful post, m4ini. Especially the part about the pensioners hit close to home. It's a recorring topic - my town welcomed 30 immigrants from Ghana. They live in this house just outside the city center, usually they spend the day biking around and by evening they return there. The other day I was in the city center and I eavesdropped a conversation between some pensioners, who were saying things like 'Why do these people get everything for free and my wife has to pay for heart medications? We've both worked and lived here all our life and paid all the taxes'.
The left can't provide an answer, otherwise they wouldn't be hemorrhaging votes. All they can do is point the finger and shout slogans like 'you are being racist even if you don't know it!'. A sad, sad display.
Weird because in the UK pensioners do get everything for free, while immigrants work hard to scrape by for themselves and their families. Maybe anecdotal evidence is worthless - who's to say!
|
On July 05 2018 20:09 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2018 20:02 SoSexy wrote:
Wonderful post, m4ini. Especially the part about the pensioners hit close to home. It's a recorring topic - my town welcomed 30 immigrants from Ghana. They live in this house just outside the city center, usually they spend the day biking around and by evening they return there. The other day I was in the city center and I eavesdropped a conversation between some pensioners, who were saying things like 'Why do these people get everything for free and my wife has to pay for heart medications? We've both worked and lived here all our life and paid all the taxes'.
The left can't provide an answer, otherwise they wouldn't be hemorrhaging votes. All they can do is point the finger and shout slogans like 'you are being racist even if you don't know it!'. A sad, sad display. Weird because in the UK pensioners do get everything for free, while immigrants work hard to scrape by for themselves and their families. Maybe anecdotal evidence is worthless - who's to say!
I'll asnwer that to the pensioner next time. Surely he'll feel better knowing that in England things are like that and he'll stop complaining.
|
On July 05 2018 20:02 SoSexy wrote:
Wonderful post, m4ini. Especially the part about the pensioners hit close to home. It's a recorring topic - my town welcomed 30 immigrants from Ghana. They live in this house just outside the city center, usually they spend the day biking around and by evening they return there. The other day I was in the city center and I eavesdropped a conversation between some pensioners, who were saying things like 'Why do these people get everything for free and my wife has to pay for heart medications? We've both worked and lived here all our life and paid all the taxes'.
The left can't provide an answer, otherwise they wouldn't be hemorrhaging votes. All they can do is point the finger and shout slogans like 'you are being racist even if you don't know it!'. A sad, sad display.
What do the immigrants have to do with heathcare? Shouldn’t the pensioners be blame the people who control their healthcare? Like the elected officials?
|
On July 05 2018 20:24 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2018 20:02 SoSexy wrote:
Wonderful post, m4ini. Especially the part about the pensioners hit close to home. It's a recorring topic - my town welcomed 30 immigrants from Ghana. They live in this house just outside the city center, usually they spend the day biking around and by evening they return there. The other day I was in the city center and I eavesdropped a conversation between some pensioners, who were saying things like 'Why do these people get everything for free and my wife has to pay for heart medications? We've both worked and lived here all our life and paid all the taxes'.
The left can't provide an answer, otherwise they wouldn't be hemorrhaging votes. All they can do is point the finger and shout slogans like 'you are being racist even if you don't know it!'. A sad, sad display. What do the immigrants have to do with heathcare? Shouldn’t the pensioners be blame the people who control their healthcare? Like the elected officials?
well, they did...and that's why they voted Lega and 5s, to structure their protest into a political change. But according to this forum this makes them dangerous fascists so I'm puzzled at what their reaction should be
|
On July 05 2018 20:24 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2018 20:02 SoSexy wrote:
Wonderful post, m4ini. Especially the part about the pensioners hit close to home. It's a recorring topic - my town welcomed 30 immigrants from Ghana. They live in this house just outside the city center, usually they spend the day biking around and by evening they return there. The other day I was in the city center and I eavesdropped a conversation between some pensioners, who were saying things like 'Why do these people get everything for free and my wife has to pay for heart medications? We've both worked and lived here all our life and paid all the taxes'.
The left can't provide an answer, otherwise they wouldn't be hemorrhaging votes. All they can do is point the finger and shout slogans like 'you are being racist even if you don't know it!'. A sad, sad display. What do the immigrants have to do with heathcare? Shouldn’t the pensioners be blame the people who control their healthcare? Like the elected officials?
I don't know much about Italian politics, but that's probably what they're doing by not voting for the status quo neoliberals, no? Some douche politician comes along tells them that immigrants are the problem, rather than ... Wait, what exactly do neoliberals blame the current problems on? Do they say we're not deregulated enough into austerity or some shit like that? We not bombing enough Muslims? Or do they just point at GDP or the stock market and go "look, it's going up, there are no problems!"
Either way, the choice is pretty much "nothing is wrong" or "blame immigrants" when it comes to what those elderly people can vote for. Immigrants are the new addition in society from what they can tell, so that's who they blame -- politically, this translates to them blaming the politicians that set the policies which allowed them in, and so they do not vote for those politicians.
|
On July 05 2018 20:13 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2018 20:09 kollin wrote:On July 05 2018 20:02 SoSexy wrote:
Wonderful post, m4ini. Especially the part about the pensioners hit close to home. It's a recorring topic - my town welcomed 30 immigrants from Ghana. They live in this house just outside the city center, usually they spend the day biking around and by evening they return there. The other day I was in the city center and I eavesdropped a conversation between some pensioners, who were saying things like 'Why do these people get everything for free and my wife has to pay for heart medications? We've both worked and lived here all our life and paid all the taxes'.
The left can't provide an answer, otherwise they wouldn't be hemorrhaging votes. All they can do is point the finger and shout slogans like 'you are being racist even if you don't know it!'. A sad, sad display. Weird because in the UK pensioners do get everything for free, while immigrants work hard to scrape by for themselves and their families. Maybe anecdotal evidence is worthless - who's to say! I'll asnwer that to the pensioner next time. Surely he'll feel better knowing that in England things are like that and he'll stop complaining.
My point was you're constructing an argument out of an anecdote. The anecdote might well reflect the feelings of people towards immigrants, but it doesn't justify their political position - only explains it.
|
I'd be as clueless what to do in the political landscape of italy as the pensioner tbh
|
Italy isnt the only country which political landscape is messed up most people have no idea who to vote for. Poland is an example. A lot of people here vote more "against" cartain party than for the other. A sad state of affairs.
|
On July 05 2018 19:39 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2018 01:29 VHbb wrote:I disagree, I think part of the problem is also rooted in how people behave towards other, and how people feel justified in un-compassionate behavior. In my personal view, it's not only a matter of politics and policies, I see a big disconnect in some of SoSexy posts, between what he argues being "good culture" and how he would behave towards others in need. Expecting a migrant to be speaking the language of the country he's moving to is absurd, especially if you want to redistribute them in all Europe, where each country has a different language. You learn the language while you're there. p.s. thanks for the "colorful" language, though "retarded" it's not super nice People are not arguing for redistributing immigrants, but redistributing refugees. Immigrants are a different problem altogether, at least economic ones that for the most part are nothing but a strain on the system. These are two different things. It has nothing to do with compassion. On multiple levels. First, you're running a country, not a charity. I don't argue for or against SoSexy, i don't decide what "good culture" is. I don't really care either. Of course i feel bad for people having to flee their country (for those who actually do need to), but on the other hand, if it's about safety, why isn't "safety" good enough? As for example the Lifeline who got finally confiscated in Malta, they're safe now aren't they? So why did the majority already announce that they want to go to france? These are actual problems, and i can absolutely understand someone from france questioning why they should pay for people that are already safe where they are. They arrived in Malta as refugees, but turned into economic migrants from there. The big ass problem here is simply, again, welfare states aren't in unlimited supply. They don't print money, people are paying out of their pocket to support people. Now i'm fine with helping people in need, and i do give to charity if i feel like it, but i'm not fine with "helping" people because in germany they get more money from the state than they'd get in from where ever they came from - all the while pensioners have to collect plastic bottles at the airport or go straight to the welfare offices because the pension that they worked for 45 years is barely enough to pay the rent. People see this, and they vote accordingly. In case you haven't noticed, i don't want the AfD to succeed in germany, or the FN in france. If politicians keep going, that's where we will end up, and things can only go downhill from there. Not just for one country, but for all, since the EU will not survive multiple eu-critical countries (especially not if it's germany, france and other big players). People argued that "oh we'll never leave the EU", surprise. People argued that Trump would never make it president, surprise. People are arguing that the AfD will never lead germany, you get the idea. edit: sidenote, since it wasn't clear: absolutely should immigrants to be expected to speak the language of the country they're migrating to, and obviously the legal traditions too. Just imagine a blonde hot girl migrating to Saudi Arabia for whatever reason, lying half naked in front of a mosque. Like it's ridiculous what you're arguing. PS: i'm, in a sense, a migrant too btw.
Are you sure that immigrants affect the welfare state as much as you think they might be?
I'm asking only because I know for a fact that those claims are vastly over-played by anti-immigrant forces in the UK. For us, the net fiscal impact is usually a little +, a little -, or very close to break even. In other words, the amount of market value demonstrated by immigrants participating in the economy vs those costing it is pretty negligible in either direction.
While that doesn't make a case for mass immigration, it certainly blunts the idea that they're a drain on the economy in anything but people's minds. There's plenty of government studies over the last decade that show it.
It wouldn't surprise me if that was the case in other countries in the EU, but obviously every country is different. I know Sweden has taken a genuine hit over the last few years.
|
On July 05 2018 20:26 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2018 20:24 Plansix wrote:On July 05 2018 20:02 SoSexy wrote:
Wonderful post, m4ini. Especially the part about the pensioners hit close to home. It's a recorring topic - my town welcomed 30 immigrants from Ghana. They live in this house just outside the city center, usually they spend the day biking around and by evening they return there. The other day I was in the city center and I eavesdropped a conversation between some pensioners, who were saying things like 'Why do these people get everything for free and my wife has to pay for heart medications? We've both worked and lived here all our life and paid all the taxes'.
The left can't provide an answer, otherwise they wouldn't be hemorrhaging votes. All they can do is point the finger and shout slogans like 'you are being racist even if you don't know it!'. A sad, sad display. What do the immigrants have to do with heathcare? Shouldn’t the pensioners be blame the people who control their healthcare? Like the elected officials? well, they did...and that's why they voted Lega and 5s, to structure their protest into a political change. But according to this forum this makes them dangerous fascists so I'm puzzled at what their reaction should be
Well if the solution to the bad healthcare is “it’s the immigrants and refugees fault” then they got played. They are mad at people who have no power over how Italy is governed. And not taking in more refugees won’t make that heart medication cheaper.
|
On July 05 2018 21:10 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2018 19:39 m4ini wrote:On July 05 2018 01:29 VHbb wrote:I disagree, I think part of the problem is also rooted in how people behave towards other, and how people feel justified in un-compassionate behavior. In my personal view, it's not only a matter of politics and policies, I see a big disconnect in some of SoSexy posts, between what he argues being "good culture" and how he would behave towards others in need. Expecting a migrant to be speaking the language of the country he's moving to is absurd, especially if you want to redistribute them in all Europe, where each country has a different language. You learn the language while you're there. p.s. thanks for the "colorful" language, though "retarded" it's not super nice People are not arguing for redistributing immigrants, but redistributing refugees. Immigrants are a different problem altogether, at least economic ones that for the most part are nothing but a strain on the system. These are two different things. It has nothing to do with compassion. On multiple levels. First, you're running a country, not a charity. I don't argue for or against SoSexy, i don't decide what "good culture" is. I don't really care either. Of course i feel bad for people having to flee their country (for those who actually do need to), but on the other hand, if it's about safety, why isn't "safety" good enough? As for example the Lifeline who got finally confiscated in Malta, they're safe now aren't they? So why did the majority already announce that they want to go to france? These are actual problems, and i can absolutely understand someone from france questioning why they should pay for people that are already safe where they are. They arrived in Malta as refugees, but turned into economic migrants from there. The big ass problem here is simply, again, welfare states aren't in unlimited supply. They don't print money, people are paying out of their pocket to support people. Now i'm fine with helping people in need, and i do give to charity if i feel like it, but i'm not fine with "helping" people because in germany they get more money from the state than they'd get in from where ever they came from - all the while pensioners have to collect plastic bottles at the airport or go straight to the welfare offices because the pension that they worked for 45 years is barely enough to pay the rent. People see this, and they vote accordingly. In case you haven't noticed, i don't want the AfD to succeed in germany, or the FN in france. If politicians keep going, that's where we will end up, and things can only go downhill from there. Not just for one country, but for all, since the EU will not survive multiple eu-critical countries (especially not if it's germany, france and other big players). People argued that "oh we'll never leave the EU", surprise. People argued that Trump would never make it president, surprise. People are arguing that the AfD will never lead germany, you get the idea. edit: sidenote, since it wasn't clear: absolutely should immigrants to be expected to speak the language of the country they're migrating to, and obviously the legal traditions too. Just imagine a blonde hot girl migrating to Saudi Arabia for whatever reason, lying half naked in front of a mosque. Like it's ridiculous what you're arguing. PS: i'm, in a sense, a migrant too btw. Are you sure that immigrants affect the welfare state as much as you think they might be? I'm asking only because I know for a fact that those claims are vastly over-played by anti-immigrant forces in the UK. For us, the net fiscal impact is usually a little +, a little -, or very close to break even. In other words, the amount of market value demonstrated by immigrants participating in the economy vs those costing it is pretty negligible in either direction. While that doesn't make a case for mass immigration, it certainly blunts the idea that they're a drain on the economy in anything but people's minds. There's plenty of government studies over the last decade that show it. It wouldn't surprise me if that was the case in other countries in the EU, but obviously every country is different. I know Sweden has taken a genuine hit over the last few years.
UK is a bad example because of the tight control it has over its borders. Its really hard to get into UK illegaly, its not part of Shangen and You also dont have NGOs ferrying migrants to Your shores.
As to actual costs of harboring refugees and migrants that is really good question i dont think i ever saw any good statistics on this. Anyone has access to something like that? Just hard data - costs, actual expanses. Not some speculations about how much it costs or how much country gains by accepting immigrant but actual absolute cost data.
|
I get the feeling that you are confusing immigrants with refugees, immigrants with illegal immigration. You don't "harbour" migrants, they mostly come to work. Every country is different, but to conflate terms like these simply don't make any sense.
For instance UK always had a substantially large amount of Polish immigration after WW2 for whatever reasons. No one would every say that we are harbouring migrants when describing them. They are not refugees. Unless perhaps in specific cases of political persecution. They get described that they are leeches, that there are just here to live off social welfare, that they are a bunch of drunks, that they worship funny like them Irish, that they are mostly men stealing jobs from British workers. But in reality i would say that that immigrants are net worth to the economy of UK. They come here and pay their taxes and when talking about integration, it isn't economic integration, it is cultural integration.
When people write immigrants to refer to the recent immigration of refugees and illegal immigration, it isn't helpful or useful at all except to further the agenda that all immigrants are all the same and should be be gotten rid off.
|
Well Your feeling is wrong. I know the difference perfectly well. Theres nothing contradictory in economic immigrant who cant find the job (for whatever reason) and as result needs to rely on teh support of state to survive.
|
On July 05 2018 20:02 SoSexy wrote:
Wonderful post, m4ini. Especially the part about the pensioners hit close to home. It's a recorring topic - my town welcomed 30 immigrants from Ghana. They live in this house just outside the city center, usually they spend the day biking around and by evening they return there. The other day I was in the city center and I eavesdropped a conversation between some pensioners, who were saying things like 'Why do these people get everything for free and my wife has to pay for heart medications? We've both worked and lived here all our life and paid all the taxes'.
The left can't provide an answer, otherwise they wouldn't be hemorrhaging votes. All they can do is point the finger and shout slogans like 'you are being racist even if you don't know it!'. A sad, sad display.
i'm sure the left did provide an answer; you simply don't agree with it or didnt' listen to it. that's far different frmo being unable to provide an answer. setting aside the considerable other problems with your anecdote that people have detailed.
you're caricaturing the left itself in order to justify the hatred of it.
regardless of the specific case, there's ample evidence in general for false attribution errors in how people think; they often attribute blame to foreign groups/"other" peoples to a degree far in excess of the amount that's justified by the fact.
ps you never replied to my prior post, and the valid points therein that demonstrate considerable problems with your arguments. maybe you missed it with all the other discussions you're in; but i'd appreciate an answer.
|
On July 05 2018 22:44 Silvanel wrote:
Well Your feeling is wrong. I know the difference perfectly well. Theres nothing contradictory in economic immigrant who cant find the job (for whatever reason) and as results need to rely on teh support of state to survive.
Economic immigrant = person that is likely due to exposure, starvation or treatable disease in their home country.
|
On July 05 2018 21:20 Silvanel wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2018 21:10 iamthedave wrote:On July 05 2018 19:39 m4ini wrote:On July 05 2018 01:29 VHbb wrote:I disagree, I think part of the problem is also rooted in how people behave towards other, and how people feel justified in un-compassionate behavior. In my personal view, it's not only a matter of politics and policies, I see a big disconnect in some of SoSexy posts, between what he argues being "good culture" and how he would behave towards others in need. Expecting a migrant to be speaking the language of the country he's moving to is absurd, especially if you want to redistribute them in all Europe, where each country has a different language. You learn the language while you're there. p.s. thanks for the "colorful" language, though "retarded" it's not super nice People are not arguing for redistributing immigrants, but redistributing refugees. Immigrants are a different problem altogether, at least economic ones that for the most part are nothing but a strain on the system. These are two different things. It has nothing to do with compassion. On multiple levels. First, you're running a country, not a charity. I don't argue for or against SoSexy, i don't decide what "good culture" is. I don't really care either. Of course i feel bad for people having to flee their country (for those who actually do need to), but on the other hand, if it's about safety, why isn't "safety" good enough? As for example the Lifeline who got finally confiscated in Malta, they're safe now aren't they? So why did the majority already announce that they want to go to france? These are actual problems, and i can absolutely understand someone from france questioning why they should pay for people that are already safe where they are. They arrived in Malta as refugees, but turned into economic migrants from there. The big ass problem here is simply, again, welfare states aren't in unlimited supply. They don't print money, people are paying out of their pocket to support people. Now i'm fine with helping people in need, and i do give to charity if i feel like it, but i'm not fine with "helping" people because in germany they get more money from the state than they'd get in from where ever they came from - all the while pensioners have to collect plastic bottles at the airport or go straight to the welfare offices because the pension that they worked for 45 years is barely enough to pay the rent. People see this, and they vote accordingly. In case you haven't noticed, i don't want the AfD to succeed in germany, or the FN in france. If politicians keep going, that's where we will end up, and things can only go downhill from there. Not just for one country, but for all, since the EU will not survive multiple eu-critical countries (especially not if it's germany, france and other big players). People argued that "oh we'll never leave the EU", surprise. People argued that Trump would never make it president, surprise. People are arguing that the AfD will never lead germany, you get the idea. edit: sidenote, since it wasn't clear: absolutely should immigrants to be expected to speak the language of the country they're migrating to, and obviously the legal traditions too. Just imagine a blonde hot girl migrating to Saudi Arabia for whatever reason, lying half naked in front of a mosque. Like it's ridiculous what you're arguing. PS: i'm, in a sense, a migrant too btw. Are you sure that immigrants affect the welfare state as much as you think they might be? I'm asking only because I know for a fact that those claims are vastly over-played by anti-immigrant forces in the UK. For us, the net fiscal impact is usually a little +, a little -, or very close to break even. In other words, the amount of market value demonstrated by immigrants participating in the economy vs those costing it is pretty negligible in either direction. While that doesn't make a case for mass immigration, it certainly blunts the idea that they're a drain on the economy in anything but people's minds. There's plenty of government studies over the last decade that show it. It wouldn't surprise me if that was the case in other countries in the EU, but obviously every country is different. I know Sweden has taken a genuine hit over the last few years. UK is a bad example because of the tight control it has over its borders. Its really hard to get into UK illegaly, its not part of Shangen and You also dont have NGOs ferrying migrants to Your shores. As to actual costs of harboring refugees and migrants that is really good question i dont think i ever saw any good statistics on this. Anyone has access to something like that? Just hard data - costs, actual expanses. Not some speculations about how much it costs or how much country gains by accepting immigrant but actual absolute cost data.
Statistics Denmark releases a report fairly regularly. I think the latest was earlier this year. I even think I quoted some numbers from it in this thread. They were fairly horrific. I'm on call and thus on my phone so I can't really find it now for you.
EDIT: This isn't it but it does contain a lot of the information you are looking for. Please note it is a link directly to a PDF. Pay special attention to which sub-group they are talking about when reading it - it covers all immigration.
https://www.google.dk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.rockwoolfonden.dk/app/uploads/2016/01/Newsletter-May-2015.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjkyfrbr4jcAhXGHpoKHUIaCLsQFjACegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw3KOPbkW7z88KcxGDSeOTHz
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
