|
Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On February 07 2018 03:47 SoSexy wrote:
Plansix, I apologized on that one. You never made a mistake?
You apologized for the error, but you still objected to the very idea the terrorist was on trial at all and posted a video of how you wanted it dealt with.
|
On February 07 2018 03:42 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2018 03:27 SoSexy wrote:On February 07 2018 03:09 Gorsameth wrote:On February 07 2018 02:55 SoSexy wrote:On February 07 2018 01:02 VHbb wrote:On February 07 2018 00:29 SoSexy wrote:On February 07 2018 00:17 Plansix wrote:
Because the trial and judicial process goal is to provide due process and protect the nation’s citizens. To do that, garbage humans get treated far better than they deserve. But that process is to re-affirm that the system aims to protect everyone. Even the Nazis got their day in court and lawyers. Not fascists though. I'm confused are you suggesting fascists are not treated well enough in justice courts? No, I was recalling Mussolini's last moments. He was killed in the streets without any process, like many fascists. Or because he was a Dicator, who are much more likely to meet violent ends outside of court then 'just' fascists. Also he was supposed to have his day in court like everyone else 2 years before his death when he was arrested after being removed from office. He was freed by the Germans, and was caught by the Italian resistance 2 years later when he tried to flee to Switzerland. Who indeed, executed him. Reads a bit different then 'killed in the streets without any process, like many fascists'. He was killed in the streets without process. Don't make a fool of yourself. Why do you feel the need to contrast objective truths just to look edgy? On 25 April he fled Milan, where he had been based, and tried to escape to the Swiss border. He and his mistress, Claretta Petacci, were captured on 27 April by local partisans near the village of Dongo on Lake Como. Mussolini and Petacci were shot the following afternoon, two days before Adolf Hitler's suicide.
The bodies of Mussolini and Petacci were taken to Milan and left in a suburban square, the Piazzale Loreto, for a large angry crowd to insult and physically abuse. They were then hung upside down from a metal girder above a service station on the square.Which means that he was shot in the streets without any process. 'or because he was a dictator who are much more likely to meet violent ends' this is just your opinion. Why do you make it sound like it's true? It's not. It's quite the contrary to be honest. Wow, that is some strawman your pulling there. Try reading my post again, No where did I imply he was not killed without due process, I even concluded it with 'Who indeed executed him' What objective truths did I contrast? I question your statement that he was executed without process because he was a fascist. Which, considering the conversation it was made in implies that if he was a Nazi he would have been taken to court. No, I say he was executed because he was a Dictator. Dictators often find themselves killed without due process. And yes that is my own opinion. Just as much as it is your own opinion that it was because he was a fascist.
Did the mob kill him because he was fascist or a dictator?
Fascist. Just in the same way they killed (in disgusting, revolting fashion) one of the greatest italian philosophers of all time, Giovanni Gentile. You take for granted that people automatically dislike dictators - they do not. But in Italy after WWII people automatically disliked fascists.
|
On February 07 2018 03:50 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2018 03:47 SoSexy wrote:
Plansix, I apologized on that one. You never made a mistake? You apologized for the error, but you still objected to the very idea the terrorist was on trial at all and posted a video of how you wanted it dealt with.
Yes, and I stand by it. One day I'll write a detailed blog explaining why the 'we are sooo better than them because we don't do that!' position is intrinsically flawed. I'll warn all of you, of course 
|
On February 07 2018 03:50 Sent. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2018 03:36 Gorsameth wrote:On February 07 2018 03:32 Sent. wrote:That red line makes your point easy to ignore What do you think the red line disproves? It doesn't disprove anything. I just think most would ignore TheDwf's point and focus on ordinary men living much shorter than the rest of the population.
Women living long then men is a biological 'problem'. I'd file a complaint with Nature but I doubt she will listen.
Both lines display the same behavior. A difference in life expectancy between poor and rich.
A difference that some might call 'to big'. (tho some difference will always exist, healthcare is a finite resource and the rich can afford to 'waste' more of it on their own dime)
|
On February 07 2018 03:52 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2018 03:50 Plansix wrote:On February 07 2018 03:47 SoSexy wrote:
Plansix, I apologized on that one. You never made a mistake? You apologized for the error, but you still objected to the very idea the terrorist was on trial at all and posted a video of how you wanted it dealt with. Yes, and I stand by it.
Yes, well your attempt to pass that off as political correctness is amusing. The reality is that you object to the way another nation is handling a terrorist who committed crimes against citizens of that nation. Not only are you not from that country, but the actions of the terrorist had limited to no impact on you. But yet you demand the French Government deal with this man in a violent fashion for no other reason than it would please you.
|
On February 07 2018 03:52 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2018 03:42 Gorsameth wrote:On February 07 2018 03:27 SoSexy wrote:On February 07 2018 03:09 Gorsameth wrote:On February 07 2018 02:55 SoSexy wrote:On February 07 2018 01:02 VHbb wrote:On February 07 2018 00:29 SoSexy wrote:On February 07 2018 00:17 Plansix wrote:
Because the trial and judicial process goal is to provide due process and protect the nation’s citizens. To do that, garbage humans get treated far better than they deserve. But that process is to re-affirm that the system aims to protect everyone. Even the Nazis got their day in court and lawyers. Not fascists though. I'm confused are you suggesting fascists are not treated well enough in justice courts? No, I was recalling Mussolini's last moments. He was killed in the streets without any process, like many fascists. Or because he was a Dicator, who are much more likely to meet violent ends outside of court then 'just' fascists. Also he was supposed to have his day in court like everyone else 2 years before his death when he was arrested after being removed from office. He was freed by the Germans, and was caught by the Italian resistance 2 years later when he tried to flee to Switzerland. Who indeed, executed him. Reads a bit different then 'killed in the streets without any process, like many fascists'. He was killed in the streets without process. Don't make a fool of yourself. Why do you feel the need to contrast objective truths just to look edgy? On 25 April he fled Milan, where he had been based, and tried to escape to the Swiss border. He and his mistress, Claretta Petacci, were captured on 27 April by local partisans near the village of Dongo on Lake Como. Mussolini and Petacci were shot the following afternoon, two days before Adolf Hitler's suicide.
The bodies of Mussolini and Petacci were taken to Milan and left in a suburban square, the Piazzale Loreto, for a large angry crowd to insult and physically abuse. They were then hung upside down from a metal girder above a service station on the square.Which means that he was shot in the streets without any process. 'or because he was a dictator who are much more likely to meet violent ends' this is just your opinion. Why do you make it sound like it's true? It's not. It's quite the contrary to be honest. Wow, that is some strawman your pulling there. Try reading my post again, No where did I imply he was not killed without due process, I even concluded it with 'Who indeed executed him' What objective truths did I contrast? I question your statement that he was executed without process because he was a fascist. Which, considering the conversation it was made in implies that if he was a Nazi he would have been taken to court. No, I say he was executed because he was a Dictator. Dictators often find themselves killed without due process. And yes that is my own opinion. Just as much as it is your own opinion that it was because he was a fascist. Did the mob kill him because he was fascist or a dictator? Fascist. Just in the same way they killed (in disgusting, revolting fashion) one of the greatest italian philosophers of all time, Giovanni Gentile. You take for granted that people automatically dislike dictators - they do not. But in Italy after WWII people automatically disliked fascists.
as Italian, I'm ashamed you are from Italy
|
On February 07 2018 03:52 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2018 03:50 Plansix wrote:On February 07 2018 03:47 SoSexy wrote:
Plansix, I apologized on that one. You never made a mistake? You apologized for the error, but you still objected to the very idea the terrorist was on trial at all and posted a video of how you wanted it dealt with. Yes, and I stand by it. One day I'll write a detailed blog explaining why the 'we are sooo better than them because we don't do that!' position is intrinsically flawed. I'll warn all of you, of course
I certainly agree that you aren't soooo much better than them, just slightly better.
|
On February 07 2018 04:06 VHbb wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2018 03:52 SoSexy wrote:On February 07 2018 03:42 Gorsameth wrote:On February 07 2018 03:27 SoSexy wrote:On February 07 2018 03:09 Gorsameth wrote:On February 07 2018 02:55 SoSexy wrote:On February 07 2018 01:02 VHbb wrote:On February 07 2018 00:29 SoSexy wrote:On February 07 2018 00:17 Plansix wrote:
Because the trial and judicial process goal is to provide due process and protect the nation’s citizens. To do that, garbage humans get treated far better than they deserve. But that process is to re-affirm that the system aims to protect everyone. Even the Nazis got their day in court and lawyers. Not fascists though. I'm confused are you suggesting fascists are not treated well enough in justice courts? No, I was recalling Mussolini's last moments. He was killed in the streets without any process, like many fascists. Or because he was a Dicator, who are much more likely to meet violent ends outside of court then 'just' fascists. Also he was supposed to have his day in court like everyone else 2 years before his death when he was arrested after being removed from office. He was freed by the Germans, and was caught by the Italian resistance 2 years later when he tried to flee to Switzerland. Who indeed, executed him. Reads a bit different then 'killed in the streets without any process, like many fascists'. He was killed in the streets without process. Don't make a fool of yourself. Why do you feel the need to contrast objective truths just to look edgy? On 25 April he fled Milan, where he had been based, and tried to escape to the Swiss border. He and his mistress, Claretta Petacci, were captured on 27 April by local partisans near the village of Dongo on Lake Como. Mussolini and Petacci were shot the following afternoon, two days before Adolf Hitler's suicide.
The bodies of Mussolini and Petacci were taken to Milan and left in a suburban square, the Piazzale Loreto, for a large angry crowd to insult and physically abuse. They were then hung upside down from a metal girder above a service station on the square.Which means that he was shot in the streets without any process. 'or because he was a dictator who are much more likely to meet violent ends' this is just your opinion. Why do you make it sound like it's true? It's not. It's quite the contrary to be honest. Wow, that is some strawman your pulling there. Try reading my post again, No where did I imply he was not killed without due process, I even concluded it with 'Who indeed executed him' What objective truths did I contrast? I question your statement that he was executed without process because he was a fascist. Which, considering the conversation it was made in implies that if he was a Nazi he would have been taken to court. No, I say he was executed because he was a Dictator. Dictators often find themselves killed without due process. And yes that is my own opinion. Just as much as it is your own opinion that it was because he was a fascist. Did the mob kill him because he was fascist or a dictator? Fascist. Just in the same way they killed (in disgusting, revolting fashion) one of the greatest italian philosophers of all time, Giovanni Gentile. You take for granted that people automatically dislike dictators - they do not. But in Italy after WWII people automatically disliked fascists. as Italian, I'm ashamed you are from Italy
Because I stand by the idea that the murder of Gentile was one of the vilest actions of partisans in Italy?
|
On February 07 2018 04:12 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2018 04:06 VHbb wrote:On February 07 2018 03:52 SoSexy wrote:On February 07 2018 03:42 Gorsameth wrote:On February 07 2018 03:27 SoSexy wrote:On February 07 2018 03:09 Gorsameth wrote:On February 07 2018 02:55 SoSexy wrote:On February 07 2018 01:02 VHbb wrote:On February 07 2018 00:29 SoSexy wrote:On February 07 2018 00:17 Plansix wrote:
Because the trial and judicial process goal is to provide due process and protect the nation’s citizens. To do that, garbage humans get treated far better than they deserve. But that process is to re-affirm that the system aims to protect everyone. Even the Nazis got their day in court and lawyers. Not fascists though. I'm confused are you suggesting fascists are not treated well enough in justice courts? No, I was recalling Mussolini's last moments. He was killed in the streets without any process, like many fascists. Or because he was a Dicator, who are much more likely to meet violent ends outside of court then 'just' fascists. Also he was supposed to have his day in court like everyone else 2 years before his death when he was arrested after being removed from office. He was freed by the Germans, and was caught by the Italian resistance 2 years later when he tried to flee to Switzerland. Who indeed, executed him. Reads a bit different then 'killed in the streets without any process, like many fascists'. He was killed in the streets without process. Don't make a fool of yourself. Why do you feel the need to contrast objective truths just to look edgy? On 25 April he fled Milan, where he had been based, and tried to escape to the Swiss border. He and his mistress, Claretta Petacci, were captured on 27 April by local partisans near the village of Dongo on Lake Como. Mussolini and Petacci were shot the following afternoon, two days before Adolf Hitler's suicide.
The bodies of Mussolini and Petacci were taken to Milan and left in a suburban square, the Piazzale Loreto, for a large angry crowd to insult and physically abuse. They were then hung upside down from a metal girder above a service station on the square.Which means that he was shot in the streets without any process. 'or because he was a dictator who are much more likely to meet violent ends' this is just your opinion. Why do you make it sound like it's true? It's not. It's quite the contrary to be honest. Wow, that is some strawman your pulling there. Try reading my post again, No where did I imply he was not killed without due process, I even concluded it with 'Who indeed executed him' What objective truths did I contrast? I question your statement that he was executed without process because he was a fascist. Which, considering the conversation it was made in implies that if he was a Nazi he would have been taken to court. No, I say he was executed because he was a Dictator. Dictators often find themselves killed without due process. And yes that is my own opinion. Just as much as it is your own opinion that it was because he was a fascist. Did the mob kill him because he was fascist or a dictator? Fascist. Just in the same way they killed (in disgusting, revolting fashion) one of the greatest italian philosophers of all time, Giovanni Gentile. You take for granted that people automatically dislike dictators - they do not. But in Italy after WWII people automatically disliked fascists. as Italian, I'm ashamed you are from Italy Because I stand by the idea that the murder of Gentile was one of the vilest actions of partisans in Italy?
you are from Italy, and yet you don't get that fascism is not something you debate about, trying to discern the 'good part' of it from the bad ones - I don't think there's any point in discussing with you on a forum
you also consider a fascist 'one of the greatest italian philosophers of all time'
in my personal experience discussing with fascists, or people sympathizing with fascism, is not fruitful nor interesting
coming from a nation that suffered fascism, if you have some historical memory, you should know that some ideas and positions are simply not ok: there's no possible discussion about 'why fascism is or is not bad' ..
seriously, these posts, coming from an Italian, make me just downhearted..
|
You are so delusional. Can you not discern between political ideas and genius? For a certain time Heidegger liked Nazism - so you throw Heidegger out of the window? This is an insult. Gentile was one of the greatest italian philosophers, it is recognized by the Academia and rightfully so. His killing was vile: his car got approached by two young people with books. He thought they were students and rolled his window down. They had guns concealed under the books, they shot the 70-year-old man and ran. Fortunately the same did not happen to Heidegger, who was such a giant that noone even dared to touch him (and rightfully so)
|
Genius is not meritorious or moral on its own. Many great minds have created terrible works that were used to inflict harm on others. Fascism was used to create a system of government that empowered incompetent sycophants at best and cruel authoritarians at worst. While it is possible to appreciate the works in the abstract, it is impossible to separate the person from the legacy of their works.
|
On February 07 2018 04:42 Plansix wrote:
Genius is not meritorious or moral on its own. Many great minds have created terrible works that were used to inflict harm on others. Fascism was used to create a system of government that empowered incompetent sycophants at best and cruel authoritarians at worst. While it is possible to appreciate the works in the abstract, it is impossible to separate the person from the legacy of their works.
Ridicolous. So I assume you would discharge Heisenberg and Einstein too, since they helped build two devices that killed hundreds of thousand of people in the most destructive bombing of human history?
|
this is not a discussion about why you like Gentile - you mentioned him in like your 3rd post about fascism - or how 'genius' (however you define it) and morality interplay
one can have an academic discussion on the merit of of Gentile's work
it does not change the fact that you should repudiate fascism in all its form
it's quite clear from your posts that you have some sympathy for fascism, or at least you think there is some mistreatment of fascism in Italy - this is the part that disheartens me
edit
you could for instance explain why you feel the need to say that, while Nazis got a process, fascists did not
|
On February 07 2018 04:46 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2018 04:42 Plansix wrote:
Genius is not meritorious or moral on its own. Many great minds have created terrible works that were used to inflict harm on others. Fascism was used to create a system of government that empowered incompetent sycophants at best and cruel authoritarians at worst. While it is possible to appreciate the works in the abstract, it is impossible to separate the person from the legacy of their works. Ridicolous. So I assume you would discharge Heisenberg and Einstein too, since they helped build two devices that killed hundreds of thousand of people in the most destructive bombing of human history?
I didn’t say we should ignore them. I said they cannot be separated from the legacy of their work. In the case of Heisenberg and Einstein, their works lead both the atomic bomb and atomic power. Just like the Gentile cannot be separate from actions of the fascist states his works helped create.
|
On February 07 2018 04:55 VHbb wrote:
this is not a discussion about why you like Gentile - you mentioned him in like your 3rd post about fascism - or how 'genius' (however you define it) and morality interplay
one can have an academic discussion on the merit of of Gentile's work
it does not change the fact that you should repudiate fascism in all its form
it's quite clear from your posts that you have some sympathy for fascism, or at least you think there is some mistreatment of fascism in Italy - this is the part that disheartens me
Strange you didn't call me sexist too for the circle-jerking post. Hey, at least I got one from the racist-fascist-sexist triad.
|
somehow I'm not surprised of this 'answer' ... or of the fact that at some point you find easier to deviate on something that is 100% unrelated (sexism??)
|
On February 07 2018 05:02 VHbb wrote:
somehow I'm not surprised of this 'answer' ... or of the fact that at some point you find easier to deviate on something that is 100% unrelated (sexism??)
Bro, I don't know what to tell you. I can assure you I never voted for fascists, pseudo-fascists parties but you won't believe me and I can't travel back in time to show you. But I'd like to ask you a thing, and if you answer I'll answer too (thread, please forgive the little off-topic): who will you vote for in the upcoming elections?
|
On February 07 2018 05:07 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2018 05:02 VHbb wrote:
somehow I'm not surprised of this 'answer' ... or of the fact that at some point you find easier to deviate on something that is 100% unrelated (sexism??) Bro, I don't know what to tell you. I can assure you I never voted for fascists, pseudo-fascists parties but you won't believe me and I can't travel back in time to show you. But I'd like to ask you a thing, and if you answer I'll answer too (thread, please forgive the little off-topic): who will you vote for in the upcoming elections?
you could start by explaining why you felt the need to clarifying that fascist after WW2 didn't get a fair trial
love of historical accuracy?
do you care if Mussolini didn't get a trial? why?
I will most likely vote PD, even though I vote 'against' rather than 'for' (as unfortunately I've done all my life)
p.s. 'bro' ?
|
I didn't say that. I said that Abdeslam process is way too soft. Someone said that even nazis got a process and were not lynched. I answered that not nazis, but in Italy it happened. I don't think that qualifies Italy as 'morally inferior' to Germany because they had Nurnberg and we did not. There is only one killing that I consider vile and that is Gentile, not for political reasons but for the way in which it was carried on and the cultural status of Gentile (I repeat, in Germany noone even dared to touch Heidegger for example). I'll vote 5-stars movement.
|
I’m not seeing a substantive argument for a “harsher” system to deal with terrorist beyond the same due process afforded to all people. Where is the benefit to the people of France ?
|
|
|
|
|
|
15470
1630
893
151
EPT
