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On February 04 2018 23:14 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2018 23:02 Ghostcom wrote:The appropriate comment to your news article isn't "When the far-right does "racial profiling" ..." if you want to avoid anecdotes. It is "Deranged man goes on racist shooting spree". + Show Spoiler +Whether you endorse crime or not I'll leave up to you. I merely replied to your stupid accusations with your own branch of "logic" - if you take issue with that, maybe revise the way you post. Why deranged? Is there any proof of mental health problem with the guy? Or is it a case of this: + Show Spoiler +As for the "anecdote" part, I still don't get what you're trying to say. Do you claim that this attack is an "anecdote" because this behaviour is not representative of the far-right? In which case yes for shooting people in the streets, but no for being xenophobic and racist; which is how he seemingly chose his targets. So there's definitely a link. What "stupid accusations"? And you might be the one who needs to revise the way you post, since pretty much each time I read you here you seem overly passive aggressive...
As you will notice from one of my prior posts (the first), I also called the Nigerian who dismembered an 18-year old girl "deranged". So as you can see, your argument that I am employing an uneven standard is flawed at it's core.
I will happily argue that it takes a special kind of mentality (deranged) to act like the shooter or the Nigerian. I will also happily argue that doing either of those things are indication of a mental health problem (in the personality disorder spectrum). I will, however, not argue that the actions in themselves are enough to declare someone mentally ill (the difference here is crucial).
I am not claiming this attack is an anecdote. I am claiming that you are using this attack as anecdotal evidence to argue that the far-right does racial profiling by shooting people in the streets. Which was literally what you wrote.
Re-read your own spoilers for the stupid accusations. I never once stated anything which you imply in any of them.
EDIT:
On February 04 2018 23:28 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2018 23:23 Simberto wrote:
May i intersect here, before you bite each others head off?
The point Ghostcom is making that anecdotal evidence is not a good source of policy, and also not very good at supporting an argument. The common fallacy here works along the lines of "x happened to me, so it must happen a lot", or "I hear about x all the time, it must be very common". "Anecdotal" in this case does not mean "funny story that happened to me", it means "singular account of something happening" as opposed to empirical evidence, meaning "mathematically valid statistical proof"
On the other hand, anecdotal evidence is good for starting conversations and figuring out directions in which to lead empirical investigations. A world in which only empirically proven facts are ever mentioned does not work very well either, because it lacks the questions that the empirical science tries to answer. Ghostcom's assertion that retitling TheDwf's article as some non-sequitur "deranged man..." story would "avoid anecdotes" suggests that you are interpreting his criticism far too liberally. Choosing to label the attacker a deranged man or a former right-wing political candidate does nothing to the anecdotal quality of the story posted. Given available information, however, one is far more accurate than the other.
You are missing the actual point of my criticism. Simberto got it right. And it does make a difference to the argument that is implicitly being made. (Imagine presenting the dismemberment story as either "dismembered girl's body found in Nigerian's suitcase" or as "This is how Nigerians repay Italian hospitality". The first is paralllel to how I propose to present the story of the shooter (by all means you can write "deranged far-right shooter") the latter is how it was actually presented by TheDwf.
And I think warding may be on to something. I did not know that the anecdote was used like that in Portugal (and possibly France). I never meant to imply there was anything funny about 6 innocents getting shot and apologize for that potential misconception. I stand by my critique of the framing.
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what the hell is going on in Greece, why are people protesting
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History is pretty sensitiv topic it would seem.
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On February 05 2018 04:35 Nyxisto wrote:
what the hell is going on in Greece, why are people protesting
People are angry over 1001 things.
Whipping up angry people to act angry for any topic is considerably easier.
and nationalism is general tends to be pretty stupid.
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On February 05 2018 04:35 Nyxisto wrote:
what the hell is going on in Greece, why are people protesting
Some Greeks raising a row over the name of Macedonia the country, because it appears to lay claim to Greece's northern area also called Macedonia.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42937889
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At least 140,000 Greeks have taken to the streets of Athens in a protest about the decades-long dispute over the name Macedonia.
I understand not liking Macedonia using the name, but this protest seems a bit excessive. It's like 140 000 Frenchmen protesting because Germans call Alsace Elsass, unthinkable.
At least the Greek government isn't right-wing, so nobody will call that protest a neo-nazi rally. I hope.
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To be fair to the Greeks, there is a country next to their borders which is co-opting parts of their national mythmaking. It'll be closer to Germany calling itself Alsace, when massive Alexander of Alsace statues are being built of the Berlin. It all seems stupid, but it's pretty understandable even to someone whose country basically never lost any home territories for hundreds of years.
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I think Greece has bigger problems than national mythmaking right now and France could call itself 'superior Germany' for all I care and it wouldn't convince me to go to a protest on a perfectly fine Sunday
Treat your girlfriend or boyfriend to a nice dinner or read a gook book, do people not have anything better to do any more? It's like the fucking stone ages
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On February 05 2018 08:37 Nyxisto wrote:
I think Greece has bigger problems than national mythmaking right now and France could call itself 'superior Germany' for all I care and it wouldn't convince me to go to a protest on a perfectly fine Sunday
Treat your girlfriend or boyfriend to a nice dinner or read a gook book, do people not have anything better to do any more? It's like the fucking stone ages
isn't unemployment still rather high in greece?
that tends to free up a lot of time for protesting; people with jobs to do tend to be busy doing them.
I wonder what the demographic data on the protestors are; does it skew toward unemployed?
does it skew toward those who don't have partners, let alone families?
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It's an interesting situation. If they were companies instead of nations, you'd think it a pretty clear case of trademark appropriation. Like, it would be on the level of some random Japanese studio naming itself "Mushroom Kingdom Software" and starting to use Mario in their titles, on the basis that they hired one of the original Nintendo devs or rented the same building.
Because they're nations, it's obviously more complex, but the consequences can be surprisingly similar.
For a small country like Greece, things like Alexander's legacy are a major driver of tourism and a key part of the national "brand". The proverbial redneck in the Appalachians has probably heard of Alexander the Great, even if he can't find either country on a map. Alexander would easily be in the top 3 things the average outsider associates with Greece, and it's not a small thing to have one of those borrowed.
Even for myself, I remember playing Age of Empires as a kid, and walking away quite uncertain as to how the modern Greeks seemed to claim Alexander when Macedonia was clearly still there on the map. It took me until like last year to actually bother looking into it enough to have that straightened out. Those kind of effects shouldn't be underestimated.
All that said, from what I've read, the proposal they're protesting was probably going to result in the country being renamed "New Macedonia" or "North Macedonia" or something, which would have been sufficient to stop my fifteen-year-old self wondering what the deal was.
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On February 05 2018 08:37 Nyxisto wrote:
I think Greece has bigger problems than national mythmaking right now and France could call itself 'superior Germany' for all I care and it wouldn't convince me to go to a protest on a perfectly fine Sunday
Treat your girlfriend or boyfriend to a nice dinner or read a gook book, do people not have anything better to do any more? It's like the fucking stone ages
Just as Greece has larger problems than the name of their neighbor, people in Dresden have larger problems than immigrants, yet Pegida continues to draw large crowds.
National pride, in all its forms, gets people riled up. And while "northern Macedonia" or so seems like an acceptable solution to me, I'm not Greek, and not nationalistic at all.
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On January 29 2018 08:55 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2018 19:13 TheDwf wrote:
Six élections législatives were cancelled by the Conseil constitutionnel, so législatives partielles will occur. Today is the first round for two of those circonscriptions. It's a test for both the majority and the oppositions; though the abstention is usually absurdly high (between 70 to 80%) in those new elections, so it might be hard to read too much from the results. That being said, 8 months ago the abstention already ranged from 50 to 60%, so it might not differ that much... Same duo advances as last time, so it will be macronist right vs historic right in both circonscriptions. + Show Spoiler +In the 90-01 district:Abstention increased from 50,3% to 70,5%. Out of the 14k people who expressed a vote: + Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/qVVmP4u.jpg) LR = right FN = far-right FI = left PS = social-democrats War of the rights: - The majority loses half its votes since June 2017. - Grey Wall from the historic right, which voted like a single man for its cheater candidate, who ends up first (+1600 compared with the macronist vs -1900 in June): good to see that cheating is rewarded with 96% of vote retention, thanks right-wing baby boomers for your undying commitment to ethics in politics. Collapse of the far-right, who loses 70% of its votes overall (split into two candidatures, because a part of the FN left since the législatives to follow the ex-number 2…). The FN lost 75% of its votes and is fourth with 7,5% (down from 17,5% in June). The far-right ''dissident'' ends up 8th with 2% of the votes. At the left: - Again, the FI arrives first within the left. They lost 44% of their voters, but end up third (11,6% of the votes) instead of fourth, ahead of the FN. - Collapse of the PS, who ends up 7th with 2,6%. Part of the votes probably went to the Greens (4,5%). The MRC, a small republican left party, was also supporting the FI candidature this time instead of running for social-democrats like it did in June. The PS lost 83% of its votes. - The overall score of the left, S&D included, goes down from 23,8% to 20,3%. In the 95-01 district:Abstention skyrocketed from 51,9% to 79,7%. Out of the 16k who expressed a vote: + Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/QPbAj7a.jpg) EELV = Greens PCF = Communists The majority loses 65% of its votes. In this district, the overall score of the left increased from 22,8% to 27,8%. The FI ends up third, again ahead of the FN which loses the most votes (-72%). Oddly enough, the PS is above 5%. Conclusions… - In the next local elections (municipales are in 2020), Macron will have troubles challenging the historic right in territories where its implantation is strong. - The FN is in deep crisis. Those who left it to found Les Patriotes will most likely achieve nothing on their own (as shows their 2% scores). - The FI confirms its status as the first left-wing party. - Social-democrats are still dead, somewhere between the 5th and the 7th place. Obviously the massive abstention (with probably 80 to 90% abstention among the youth and lower classes…) and lack of national campaign make those élections special.
In a desert of voters, "victory" of the historic right in both elections.
90-01
Abstention: 71%
Mainstream right: 59% of expressed votes (15,1% of registered voters)
Macronist right: 41% (10,5%)
+8 points for the mainstream right in 8 months compared with June 2017.
95-01:
Abstention: 81%
Mainstream right: 51,5% of expressed votes (8,5% of registered voters)
Macronist right: 48,5% (8%)
+6 points for the mainstream right in 8 months compared with June 2017.
According to macronists, in the 95-01 "left-wing voters abstained while FN voters went to the [mainstream] right".
Outcome: the majority loses one seat in the Assemblée.
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So Salah Abdeslam process started and I read that the prosecution asked for the highest punishment which is 20 years. Also, they will use a new Belgian anti-terrorism law which would guarantee he'd stay in jail for at least 2/3 so 13 years. What do you think guys? Will he become a functional citizen in jail? For a guy who is still talking how he doesn't fear the judges and he has trust in Allah surely feels inadequate.
TL;DR Attack a theater, kill more than one hundred people, get out of jail in 13 years.
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I assume Belgian law has a security option for people unfit to be released into the public like pretty much any country without life sentences. I think it's fair to say that nobody knows whether he will be a functional citizen in twenty years. I remember a case of a nurse in Norway I read about who was released into public and now lives again after killing a few dozen people so I guess it's possible, although unlikely.
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On February 06 2018 07:58 SoSexy wrote:
So Salah Abdeslam process started and I read that the prosecution asked for the highest punishment which is 20 years. Also, they will use a new Belgian anti-terrorism law which would guarantee he'd stay in jail for at least 2/3 so 13 years. What do you think guys? Will he become a functional citizen in jail? For a guy who is still talking how he doesn't fear the judges and he has trust in Allah surely feels inadequate.
TL;DR Attack a theater, kill more than one hundred people, get out of jail in 13 years.
Yeah, except the trial is not about the Paris attacks.
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Please sosexy, I know you are perpetually angry, but at least try to get what he is on trail for correctly. You know, basic fact checking before riling yourself up into a fury.
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You are right, I apologize. I don't know what sense does it make to have 2 different trials, one for the attack on the policemen and the other concerning the Bataclan. Still, my ideal 'process' for him would be this  (warning: link in spoiler, no images, but link redirects to VERY graphic content):
Mod edit:
Link has been removed.
User was warned for this post
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Because the trial and judicial process goal is to provide due process and protect the nation’s citizens. To do that, garbage humans get treated far better than they deserve. But that process is to re-affirm that the system aims to protect everyone. Even the Nazis got their day in court and lawyers.
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On February 07 2018 00:17 Plansix wrote:
Because the trial and judicial process goal is to provide due process and protect the nation’s citizens. To do that, garbage humans get treated far better than they deserve. But that process is to re-affirm that the system aims to protect everyone. Even the Nazis got their day in court and lawyers.
Not fascists though.
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On February 07 2018 00:29 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2018 00:17 Plansix wrote:
Because the trial and judicial process goal is to provide due process and protect the nation’s citizens. To do that, garbage humans get treated far better than they deserve. But that process is to re-affirm that the system aims to protect everyone. Even the Nazis got their day in court and lawyers. Not fascists though.
If your nation still wants to drag people through the street and use gas stations as the venue to show justice, that is your decision. Don’t expect other nations to follow that lead.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/elnLWs9.jpg?1)
