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On September 29 2011 05:05 scorch- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 06:37 antelope591 wrote:On September 26 2011 05:02 Telcontar wrote:I'm still expecting GRRM to extend the series to 8 books. I just don't see how he can tie a lot of threads that he's created in 2 books, especially going by his recent ones. He has promised that the remaining chapters would move along quicker and focus more on central characters/plot, but even that doesn't leave much room to fully develop and close the plethora of storylines & viewpoints. I honestly don't mind it as long as the story is told right and in full. Let's hope he's motivated enough to close it out without dragging it on for too long. The wait for ADWD almost killed me  Yeah...the only thing I have an issue with is all the shit he's introduced in just the last book alone. What the hell is the point of bringing in another Targaryen? That's another huge storyline that he now has to resolve -_-. One thing that made me unsure whether Aegon was always a part of the story is that in the first book/TV series Varys says some things that make it appear he's unaware of Aegon's existence when DWD says that he's been part of the plot to save/re-crown him since before Robert took the throne. Anyone else noticed that or seen it resolved elsewhere?
I don't understand why and how Illyrio would allow Viserys to give away Danaerys' hand in marriage to Khal Drogo if the intention all along was to re-crown Aegon. Don't know if the plan all along was to wed Aegon to Danaerys -- or if that merely turned into a plan after Danaerys started pwning shit up.
Still it makes very little sense that they would have two simultaneous but different plots for re-crowning two Targaryens.
Perhaps it can all be explained away by Illyrio constantly cautioning idiot Viserys to "be patient, your time will come".
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Here is my take on the ending of ADwD. Spoiler alert! I'd be interested to know if you noticed/thought the same.
This is a fucking serious spoiler, it will probably ruin the books for you if you didn't read any of them yet, or is in the middle of one of them.
This is the solution to the Mereneese knot I would think.
+ Show Spoiler + When Daenerys is hunting with Drogon in the end of the book, feasting on a horse with her dragon, a khalasar comes upon her and the dragon, and the plot ends there (so far).
Throughout the books it's been hinted that the khalasars have a huge respect for dragons. I don't have a page reference, but I'm pretty sure this is the case.
The next step to the plot seems so logical: The khalasar can either: try to kill her and the dragon, leave them alone (run away) or join her, recognizing her as Khaleesi.
If she is killed, it would ruin everything. If the khalasar leaves her alone why would they meet in the first place? It is illogical. Remember when Daenerys was forced to eat a horse heart in book one? Now the khalasar finds her feasting on a fucking horse with her fucking dragon. How can they not think her their khaleesi?
SO, I think that the khalasar will join her, and break the siege of slavers on Mereen, help her take control of as much of both armies as she can (especially since she survived her dragon flight, they must have much more respect for her). All the trade/war ships in the Mereen harbor will also solicit her decision to no longer be the Queen of Mereen, but instead head to Westeros with her current army bolstered, both with more slaves and the khalasar.
I'm usually not the type to guess endings, but if I have to wait till year two thousand and fucking fifteen, I might as well.
Do you imagine any other scenarios? To me this is what should happen in the next book, and I can't see the major plot for Daenerys (and the book) going in any other direction.
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Concerning Illyrio, Varys and Aegon.
+ Show Spoiler + Illyrio seems to me like a man that appreciates the volatility of the Game of Thrones. The reason he might have to both prepare Aegon and Viserys at the same time, would be that he'd have a backup in case any of them fails (which Viserys does). So in a way he's just making sure he's set both ways.
It seems quite clear that Varys is Illyrios partner above all, and if he pretends not to know anything about Aegon earlier in the series, it's just because it is not in his interest that the people he is talking to, knows about Aegon. I do agree though, that it is a bit weird to bring Aegon in to the plot, especially the way George R. R. Martin just pulled Aegon out of his ass. I suspect it has to do with furthering some plot regarding Illyrio and Varys, and it might be to just get a proper suit for Daenerys.
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On September 26 2011 04:52 Goobus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 03:51 mud123 wrote: I just finished the first book in the series "A Game of Thrones" on thursday 22nd. INCREDIBLE STORY!! Gonna start on the second book on tuesday or so. All I can say is: don't be like me and blow through all 5 books in 2 weeks. You will feel empty inside when you realize Winds of Winter won't be out for another 2 years at least. Take your time and savor every moment (ideally, take 2+ years to savor them). I can do nothing but disagree with this. There's hundreds and hundreds of books out there both on par with asoif and better than it. Wasting 2 years on this series alone is foolish.
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On September 29 2011 08:12 kalusn wrote:Concerning Illyrio, Varys and Aegon. + Show Spoiler + Illyrio seems to me like a man that appreciates the volatility of the Game of Thrones. The reason he might have to both prepare Aegon and Viserys at the same time, would be that he'd have a backup in case any of them fails (which Viserys does). So in a way he's just making sure he's set both ways.
It seems quite clear that Varys is Illyrios partner above all, and if he pretends not to know anything about Aegon earlier in the series, it's just because it is not in his interest that the people he is talking to, knows about Aegon. I do agree though, that it is a bit weird to bring Aegon in to the plot, especially the way George R. R. Martin just pulled Aegon out of his ass. I suspect it has to do with furthering some plot regarding Illyrio and Varys, and it might be to just get a proper suit for Daenerys.
I don't think anything needs spoiler tags in this thread, but since you used them...
+ Show Spoiler +It's a popular theory that "Young Griff" Aegon is not actually the real Aegon. If that turns out to be the truth, it would also make sense to use the real heir as the main plan and keep a fake one as back up. They knew how volatile Vyserys was, so it only makes sense they wouldn't bet everything on his sucess. The "Mummer's cloth dragon" that apears in more than on prophecy relating to Dany possibily refers to him. More specifically these two: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Prophecies/Entry/1813/http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Prophecies/Entry/5437/
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On September 29 2011 07:56 LaLuSh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 05:05 scorch- wrote:On September 26 2011 06:37 antelope591 wrote:On September 26 2011 05:02 Telcontar wrote:I'm still expecting GRRM to extend the series to 8 books. I just don't see how he can tie a lot of threads that he's created in 2 books, especially going by his recent ones. He has promised that the remaining chapters would move along quicker and focus more on central characters/plot, but even that doesn't leave much room to fully develop and close the plethora of storylines & viewpoints. I honestly don't mind it as long as the story is told right and in full. Let's hope he's motivated enough to close it out without dragging it on for too long. The wait for ADWD almost killed me  Yeah...the only thing I have an issue with is all the shit he's introduced in just the last book alone. What the hell is the point of bringing in another Targaryen? That's another huge storyline that he now has to resolve -_-. One thing that made me unsure whether Aegon was always a part of the story is that in the first book/TV series Varys says some things that make it appear he's unaware of Aegon's existence when DWD says that he's been part of the plot to save/re-crown him since before Robert took the throne. Anyone else noticed that or seen it resolved elsewhere? I don't understand why and how Illyrio would allow Viserys to give away Danaerys' hand in marriage to Khal Drogo if the intention all along was to re-crown Aegon. Don't know if the plan all along was to wed Aegon to Danaerys -- or if that merely turned into a plan after Danaerys started pwning shit up. Still it makes very little sense that they would have two simultaneous but different plots for re-crowning two Targaryens. Perhaps it can all be explained away by Illyrio constantly cautioning idiot Viserys to "be patient, your time will come". Some light is shed on this in DwD, when Aegon says he wants to march with the Golden Company to Westeros. One of the captains themselves said how they were tired on waiting on Illyrio and his schemes -- first this was the plan, then that, then dany was to come with her horde of dothraki, then that failed and the new plan was this, then she was supposed to come to them on a ship, but she went to slavers bay instead, etc.
Illyrio said that he didnt even plan on Dany surviving, and that Viserys was the real plan (I assume Aegon was to help with this). Or maybe Aegon was the plan and Viserys was the backup (since Aegon was the rightful heir?). Either way, when Dothraki was a viable option, they just added them into the plan.
Seems straightforward to me. Why woudl you want to crown two Targaryens? That literally makes no sense at all.
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On September 29 2011 08:52 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 08:12 kalusn wrote:Concerning Illyrio, Varys and Aegon. + Show Spoiler + Illyrio seems to me like a man that appreciates the volatility of the Game of Thrones. The reason he might have to both prepare Aegon and Viserys at the same time, would be that he'd have a backup in case any of them fails (which Viserys does). So in a way he's just making sure he's set both ways.
It seems quite clear that Varys is Illyrios partner above all, and if he pretends not to know anything about Aegon earlier in the series, it's just because it is not in his interest that the people he is talking to, knows about Aegon. I do agree though, that it is a bit weird to bring Aegon in to the plot, especially the way George R. R. Martin just pulled Aegon out of his ass. I suspect it has to do with furthering some plot regarding Illyrio and Varys, and it might be to just get a proper suit for Daenerys.
I don't think anything needs spoiler tags in this thread, but since you used them... + Show Spoiler +It's a popular theory that "Young Griff" Aegon is not actually the real Aegon. If that turns out to be the truth, it would also make sense to use the real heir as the main plan and keep a fake one as back up. They knew how volatile Vyserys was, so it only makes sense they wouldn't bet everything on his sucess. The "Mummer's cloth dragon" that apears in more than on prophecy relating to Dany possibily refers to him. More specifically these two: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Prophecies/Entry/1813/http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Prophecies/Entry/5437/
Doesn't he have the targyrean eyes and hair? How can you fake that
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On September 29 2011 23:09 KOFgokuon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 08:52 SKC wrote:On September 29 2011 08:12 kalusn wrote:Concerning Illyrio, Varys and Aegon. + Show Spoiler + Illyrio seems to me like a man that appreciates the volatility of the Game of Thrones. The reason he might have to both prepare Aegon and Viserys at the same time, would be that he'd have a backup in case any of them fails (which Viserys does). So in a way he's just making sure he's set both ways.
It seems quite clear that Varys is Illyrios partner above all, and if he pretends not to know anything about Aegon earlier in the series, it's just because it is not in his interest that the people he is talking to, knows about Aegon. I do agree though, that it is a bit weird to bring Aegon in to the plot, especially the way George R. R. Martin just pulled Aegon out of his ass. I suspect it has to do with furthering some plot regarding Illyrio and Varys, and it might be to just get a proper suit for Daenerys.
I don't think anything needs spoiler tags in this thread, but since you used them... + Show Spoiler +It's a popular theory that "Young Griff" Aegon is not actually the real Aegon. If that turns out to be the truth, it would also make sense to use the real heir as the main plan and keep a fake one as back up. They knew how volatile Vyserys was, so it only makes sense they wouldn't bet everything on his sucess. The "Mummer's cloth dragon" that apears in more than on prophecy relating to Dany possibily refers to him. More specifically these two: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Prophecies/Entry/1813/http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Prophecies/Entry/5437/ Doesn't he have the targyrean eyes and hair? How can you fake that
By being of Valyrian heritage. The Daynes do for instance have the right eye color. Hair color is possble to fake. One theory is that "Aegon" is the child of Ashara Dayne.
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On Aegon and Dany, by the by. + Show Spoiler +It would be a huge surprise to me if Varys/Illyrio placed all of their bets on a mad heir without money and a young girl frightened of her own shadow. There was no way to predict how Dany would turn out - it makes sense to me that they would have simply hedged their bets, given support to both where possible and seeing which one seemed more likely to achieve the throne. Neither would have really baulked at the idea of killing off the less successful claimant in the interests of the realm's stability. Also yeah, only Dany could walk into the Dothraki sea and come out with an army twice. She should spend a bit more time there, see if she can't get another couple of khalasars and legions of Unsullied  I'm assuming she will quickly take this khalasar back and move to raise the siege. She's seemingly accepted that she is a dragon, and dragons leave devastation in their wake. Maybe now she'll stop trying to save every person she's come across and go to claim her birthright...
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On September 29 2011 08:03 kalusn wrote:Here is my take on the ending of ADwD. Spoiler alert! I'd be interested to know if you noticed/thought the same. This is a fucking serious spoiler, it will probably ruin the books for you if you didn't read any of them yet, or is in the middle of one of them. This is the solution to the Mereneese knot I would think. + Show Spoiler + When Daenerys is hunting with Drogon in the end of the book, feasting on a horse with her dragon, a khalasar comes upon her and the dragon, and the plot ends there (so far).
Throughout the books it's been hinted that the khalasars have a huge respect for dragons. I don't have a page reference, but I'm pretty sure this is the case.
The next step to the plot seems so logical: The khalasar can either: try to kill her and the dragon, leave them alone (run away) or join her, recognizing her as Khaleesi.
If she is killed, it would ruin everything. If the khalasar leaves her alone why would they meet in the first place? It is illogical. Remember when Daenerys was forced to eat a horse heart in book one? Now the khalasar finds her feasting on a fucking horse with her fucking dragon. How can they not think her their khaleesi?
SO, I think that the khalasar will join her, and break the siege of slavers on Mereen, help her take control of as much of both armies as she can (especially since she survived her dragon flight, they must have much more respect for her). All the trade/war ships in the Mereen harbor will also solicit her decision to no longer be the Queen of Mereen, but instead head to Westeros with her current army bolstered, both with more slaves and the khalasar.
I'm usually not the type to guess endings, but if I have to wait till year two thousand and fucking fifteen, I might as well.
Do you imagine any other scenarios? To me this is what should happen in the next book, and I can't see the major plot for Daenerys (and the book) going in any other direction.
This seems to be the common guess on whats going to happen, I wouldn't doubt if it is correct. + Show Spoiler +One thing though everyone seems to be forgetting about is that Victarion is on his way to Meeren with a fuckin tough army and the dragon horn. This could throw any type of twist in that people won't suspect.
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On October 03 2011 06:20 Flik wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 08:03 kalusn wrote:Here is my take on the ending of ADwD. Spoiler alert! I'd be interested to know if you noticed/thought the same. This is a fucking serious spoiler, it will probably ruin the books for you if you didn't read any of them yet, or is in the middle of one of them. This is the solution to the Mereneese knot I would think. + Show Spoiler + When Daenerys is hunting with Drogon in the end of the book, feasting on a horse with her dragon, a khalasar comes upon her and the dragon, and the plot ends there (so far).
Throughout the books it's been hinted that the khalasars have a huge respect for dragons. I don't have a page reference, but I'm pretty sure this is the case.
The next step to the plot seems so logical: The khalasar can either: try to kill her and the dragon, leave them alone (run away) or join her, recognizing her as Khaleesi.
If she is killed, it would ruin everything. If the khalasar leaves her alone why would they meet in the first place? It is illogical. Remember when Daenerys was forced to eat a horse heart in book one? Now the khalasar finds her feasting on a fucking horse with her fucking dragon. How can they not think her their khaleesi?
SO, I think that the khalasar will join her, and break the siege of slavers on Mereen, help her take control of as much of both armies as she can (especially since she survived her dragon flight, they must have much more respect for her). All the trade/war ships in the Mereen harbor will also solicit her decision to no longer be the Queen of Mereen, but instead head to Westeros with her current army bolstered, both with more slaves and the khalasar.
I'm usually not the type to guess endings, but if I have to wait till year two thousand and fucking fifteen, I might as well.
Do you imagine any other scenarios? To me this is what should happen in the next book, and I can't see the major plot for Daenerys (and the book) going in any other direction.
This seems to be the common guess on whats going to happen, I wouldn't doubt if it is correct. + Show Spoiler +One thing though everyone seems to be forgetting about is that Victarion is on his way to Meeren with a fuckin tough army and the dragon horn. This could throw any type of twist in that people won't suspect.
+ Show Spoiler +I think Victarion will reach Mereen first and take control of Viserion and Rhaegal....then he'll face off vs Daenerys + Drogor and her new army. What will happen from there I'm not even gonna bother guessing.
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+ Show Spoiler +I think it'd be funny if Euron gave Victarian a fake horn to get rid of him and his supporters. Why would Euron give Victarian control of any dragons with no leash on his brother? Somewhat expect Victarian to confront Danny, blow the horn, nothing happens, shit burns, and Euron is less one contender for his throne.
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On October 03 2011 07:45 unsmart wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I think it'd be funny if Euron gave Victarian a fake horn to get rid of him and his supporters. Why would Euron give Victarian control of any dragons with no leash on his brother? Somewhat expect Victarian to confront Danny, blow the horn, nothing happens, shit burns, and Euron is less one contender for his throne.
+ Show Spoiler +Seems unlikely...he sent off the entire iron fleet which is like 90% of the iron islands' strength. Without the iron fleet Euron doesn't have shit. He wouldn't have wasted them all with a fake horn. But Euron has something up his sleeve no doubt.
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+ Show Spoiler +Euron definitely is planning something, he's fucking Euron. He wants power, and he knows Victarion won't rise up and kill him, as much as he wants to. Victarion has said in his own thoughts that he won't do it. Anyway, I hope Victarion takes dragons because he's a boss and probably one of the most badass characters in the series. Honestly the ironborn need more love, they're all OGs, except maybe Theon.
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On October 03 2011 07:49 antelope591 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 07:45 unsmart wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I think it'd be funny if Euron gave Victarian a fake horn to get rid of him and his supporters. Why would Euron give Victarian control of any dragons with no leash on his brother? Somewhat expect Victarian to confront Danny, blow the horn, nothing happens, shit burns, and Euron is less one contender for his throne. + Show Spoiler +Seems unlikely...he sent off the entire iron fleet which is like 90% of the iron islands' strength. Without the iron fleet Euron doesn't have shit. He wouldn't have wasted them all with a fake horn. But Euron has something up his sleeve no doubt.
+ Show Spoiler +He didnt tell him how the horn works. It is infused with Euron. However the red priest that victorion found in the see has explained the workings of the horn. So now he can bind it to him instead of Euron. I assume Euron hasn't acounted for that and believes victorion will use the horn and get him the dragons.
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On October 03 2011 08:03 Marradron wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 07:49 antelope591 wrote:On October 03 2011 07:45 unsmart wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I think it'd be funny if Euron gave Victarian a fake horn to get rid of him and his supporters. Why would Euron give Victarian control of any dragons with no leash on his brother? Somewhat expect Victarian to confront Danny, blow the horn, nothing happens, shit burns, and Euron is less one contender for his throne. + Show Spoiler +Seems unlikely...he sent off the entire iron fleet which is like 90% of the iron islands' strength. Without the iron fleet Euron doesn't have shit. He wouldn't have wasted them all with a fake horn. But Euron has something up his sleeve no doubt. + Show Spoiler +He didnt tell him how the horn works. It is infused with Euron. However the red priest that victorion found in the see has explained the workings of the horn. So now he can bind it to him instead of Euron. I assume Euron hasn't acounted for that and believes victorion will use the horn and get him the dragons.
+ Show Spoiler +If you recall, the red priest tells Victarion that the person that blows the horn will die. Euron expects Victarion to be the one to blow the horn. He never thought that Victarion would meet somebody that would actually tell him the lore behind the horn. So All Victarion needs is some random person to just blow the horn for him and he will have control over the dragons instead of Euron.
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+ Show Spoiler +I don't think Euron would leave it that shallow. Maybe the horn doesn't do exactly what everyone thinks it does, maybe it just pisses dragons off, making them turn against their handlers.
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Books 1-3 are good.
Books 4 and 5 have 25 cumulative unique POVs to wade through. Read War and Peace instead. =)
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Just to jump into the two Targaryen thing,
+ Show Spoiler +Wasn't there some mention earlier in Dance With Dragons about having Aegon and Daenerys marry so they could continue the Targaryen line? But Aegon and the Golden Company got tired of waiting so they decided to get into the whole invading the 7 Kingdoms part of the plan earlier than expected?
I mean I could have completely misunderstood what was going on but that seemed to me to have been the plan.
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On October 03 2011 08:00 S.O.L.I.D. wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Euron definitely is planning something, he's fucking Euron. He wants power, and he knows Victarion won't rise up and kill him, as much as he wants to. Victarion has said in his own thoughts that he won't do it. Anyway, I hope Victarion takes dragons because he's a boss and probably one of the most badass characters in the series. Honestly the ironborn need more love, they're all OGs, except maybe Theon.
I don't understand this point of view, even though I've heard it expressed semi-frequently. All Victarion ever does is bitch about how he "had to" beat his wife to death with his bare hands, and about his inferiority complex to his brothers. Honestly, I really hope he ends up being a big waste of time, if any of the [strike]vikings[/strike]ironborn deserve to stumble randomly upon plot importance it's Aeron.
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