A Song of Ice and Fire - Page 29

people are saying this because so many characters you "see die" end up not actually being dead... dondarrion, cat, bran & rickon, aegon, and so forth. at this point he has no credibility when people look dead at the end of a chapter any more.

Easy way to avoid: Jon wargs to Ghost. It is even foreshadowed with that long boring prologue about SixSkinsWhoCares so that GRRM won't get accused with a deus ex machina

I think its pretty much universally accepted that Jon is not going to die. After all, he is the son of L + R and pretty much central to the plot.

He can warg into ghost. Mel can res him. His death fulfills the prophecy about AA being reborn: smoke (his smoking wounds) and salt (the tears). There's lots of ways to bring him back. Hell, he might not even be dead, considering he just got stabbed a bunch of times.

Let us for a moment imagine that Jon has 4 knives sticking out of his chest and he is now dead. Rotting and never coming back, not even Jon Znowbie.

How would this impact the story in any way? Jon might be one of the biggest characters in the story but he is also completly removed from the main plot. Jon could die and it would hardly impact the story. The big showdown between Danny and the rest is still going to happen, he would just be rotting in the ground.

The others are still gonna arrive, we would just witness that through the eyes of another character. Sure if he really is dead then he can run for "most uselss character" award but he can hardly be called essential.

Jon can die and it wouldn't hamper the story in any way.

Jon may have already played his big part. He got most of the wildlings south of the wall... that would never have happened without him.

Without him, tens of thousands of wildlings would have been turned to mindless zombies under the control of the Others.

She could just die (or stay in Mereen and keep drooling over purple beards for that matter) and Jon could still have his big showdown with the Others.

Or they could both be dead and the books are now about the real main characters Aegon and Penny, who is of course a targaeryen and also azhor azhai reborn and is an awesome dragon rider, because of all that riding a dog experience.

I think it's generally asssumed that the Song of Fire and Ice refers to Jon Snow (Lyanna his mother being ice), (Rhaegar his father being fire) or Jon and Dany. (Jon being Ice and Dany being fire)
Both of them are pretty integral to the story. I guess it could be Dany (fire) vs the Others (ice), but I doubt it

Would it be plausible if Jon returned as an Other?

Melisandre's POV chapter was my favorite chapter of the book. If she had more than just the one she would have been my favorite character all together.

Dany is frustratingly stupid. Ever since she sent Jorah away its been one mindnumbingly stupid decision after another. I find it hard to believe that the next two books finish off the series. At least half of the next book is probably going to be spent in Mereen now with the conclusion of her story either being the decision to sale for Westeros or her landing there.

On the topic of Jorah, my mental picture of Jorah is now the actor from the TV series. Every line that he speaks was read with the actors voice. No other character did this for me.

Jon: I refuse to believe he's dead even though he may well be. He did do a good job of making enemies out of everyone. The writing was on the wall if he really is dead. I kind of expect the wildings to fuck shit up now.

Penny is an awful character. I thought her introduction and role of transforming Tyrion was below Martin. If they end up in some sort of a relationship I'm going to vomit. I hope that she's briefly mentioned at the start of the next book then never seen again.

Roose's letter to Jon made no sense at first, overwhelming Stannis' army but not having found Theon or Jeyne. However after reading through this thread it completely went over my head that Abel was Mance. Chances are that before Jon could have reached Winterfell Stannis would have broken it. Too bad he'll never reach it.

Biggest Oh Shit! moment of the book was when Cersei told Kevan to go to Qyburn with a white cloak.

I think I'll leave it at that for now.

So, first of all the prologue chapter might be the best in the series except the sack of Astapor. Varamyr Sixskins has such a convincing and painful story. It also provides some excellent explanation about whats going on with all the stark kids being shapeshifters.

Martin said that it was the "Mereenes knot" that make the book take so long to write, but it kinda feel like most of it was kinda dull. Tyrions first two chapters are brilliant, i especially enjoyed hearing Illyrio talk about his past life (making him one of the most exciting characters), but after that it takes way to long to get any ware. In a way Tyrions interaction with Penny is essential to his development, but everything going on around him is kinda boring. I really wanted him to chat with Dany and will be terribly disappointed if they don't get to meet up in the next book. Ser Barristan was a joy to read. But I'm kinda disappointed there didn't end up being some huge event in store. Listening to him wrestle with his Kingsguard ideal is great, but it would have been so much better if he was forced he had been forced to execute one the hostage children. Danys chapters contain so much brilliant thematic material, her infertility and how her dragons/freedmen have become her children, but that they are just creating problems, how she wants to be a girl and how being a queen get in the way of each other. But it all takes place in the stinking mess of Mereen and is kinda annoying to read. The resolution is really really awesome, the scene when she first mounts Drogon in the arena is another high point for the series and will be a joy to behold on tv. But her final chapter really is the crowning moment of the volume and gives clear direction for The Winds of Winter. I love how she is alone in it and while she is kinda vulnerable all the time she shows no fear. It really is brilliant that the last time she met a Khalasar she was sold as a slave and now she arrives as a Queen riding on a Dragon. Now, I don't know what will happen next book, but she obviously is gonna get moving to Westeros. I also kinda think the Quentyn Martell chapters are kinda lame and mostly serve to make the two dragons wreck havoc on the city and make Danys future relations to Dorne harder (i predict a succession battle between her and Aegon)

Speaking of Dorne, any chapter set there is bound to be awesome and unfortunately there was only one in this book. If he doesn't the girl they send to kings landing a pov character next book i will be terribly disappointed!

Jons second and third chapters are really quite brilliant. How Jon mentally repeats the "Kill the child" mantra throughout his interactions with Sam are quite amazing and when he commands Jason Slynt first to be hanged, then remembers his father and decides to behead him himself. The rest of his chapters suffer kinda the same problems as Danys do, he is making all these tense compromises and dealing with the troubles of leadership and it's kinda like trudging through mud. I don't really mind that Martin kills him off, I mean it was a hard blow and almost worse then the Red Wedding. But Snow deserves it and it fits well with his themes and as long as something stupid that happens bring him back I'll be happy. But I am surprised he didn't get it on with Melissandre. It is also kinda a bummer that she only got one chapter. I would love to know more of her backstory.

Cerseis walk of shame was stunning! I can't wait to see it live. It definitely is her strongest moment as a character, all she has had her whole life is her name, her looks, her marriage and her money and now she goes has to make do without any of them (for a little while) for her son. Jamie keeps up his reputation as my favorite character (after his brilliant performance in a Feast For Crows) but unfortunately only has one chapter. I also love Kevans chapter in the epilogue. Kevans talk walk Tyrion in Swords really shows allot of him, how he always has stood in the shadow of his elder brother (Tywin <3) but he admires and loves him to much that he is fine with that. Now Tywin is dead and Kevan has to shoulder his mantle, but he lacks the strength to and finally dies in the same way.

Also, to all the Arya haters, I hope she stabs you!
Arya is without a doubt the most thematically complicated character in the series. She starts out as a traditional tomboy, struggling with her gender in a rigid society. Ned lets her have some leniency with it but sooner or later she is going to have to become a "lady". Then Ned gets executed and Yoren forces her to become a boy in order to disguise her. But when she finally reaches the faceless men things really interesting. In order to become one of them she doesn't just have to forsake her female identity, which is easy for her, but she has to forsake ALL identity and to in essence eradicate herself in order to become anyone. Now almost all characters have to deal with identity but nobody does it quite as excitingly as Arya. Also those who think her story isn't connected to the rest who are you kidding? If she doesn't end up being sent out to assassinate at least one pov character I will eat my cat/hat! I was kinda hoping she would be sent to kill snow but that can't happen now.

Dragons has a few wonderful moment but takes way to much time getting to them.

I would imagine that he did it because of the letter being addressed to BASTARD

John stopped the Slynt's hanging...

to fucking cut his head off?

Other then some "deaths" has the plotline been moved forward in any significant way? I am pretty angry I wait so many years for this. Everyone is pretty much still where they started off with at the end of AFFC. It seems like only Stannis made any movement towards his final destination, moving a little bit south.

Loved Lord Manderly, he is the one positive in this book. We got some interesting history, some humor, some scheming, some revenge, and a quest.

And another targ still alive? the son that was supposedly killed and served as the back drop to this whole series? After this, I am inclined to believe Ned Stark is someone in the Riverrun pretending to be a stablehand. Robb is probably currently in Casterly Rock trying to free his wife. In fact Tywin's double was killed while Tywin himself is going to Essos to try to marry Dany.

I am glad there weren't that many arya chapters, it would've just been more of a snoozefest.

Dany is doing what exactly? A prince of Dorne rolls in offering support of one of the most powerful houses (and is unaffected by the clash of kings) and a huge army, exactly what she needed and has been trying to do for that last 4 books and what does she do? Marry a guy interested in gladiators and then flies around in a dragon (after showing us she is really horny for like 5+ chapters).

The final cliff hanger...Vary's is still in the Red Keep...we already know that....so what does GRRM do? Kill off a minor character.

"For the resolution of this cliffhanger and many more, please wait another 5-6 years, please speculate in the meantime!" ---GRRM

"I just finished the ADWD! Time to go online and read the forums and speculate! It makes the wait more bearable! Oh wait...most of the same speculations for AFFC still holds true...."--loyal fans.

Jon's death certainly has no effect on the Dany vs. the world storyline, but it makes no sense why GRRM would invest so much of the series in developing Jon and then kill him off. Also, his death does have a huge impact on the plot re: the Walkers.