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On July 21 2011 22:37 MamiyaOtaru wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 12:19 floor exercise wrote:The writing/editing seemed really inconsistent/lazy. None of this spoils anything plotwise but I may as well keep with tradition + Show Spoiler +
He uses "words are wind" 13 times. Pretty much every single character says it at least once in this book. It's been said before, but it just seems so fucking lazy to use it over and over, on both continents, like it has just become an incredibly popular turn of phrase around the world. Other things like how Tyrion can't go one paragraph without talking about killing Tywin for half the book bothered me. Or the "where whores go" thing. I got tired of reading the same thing in every chapter
He uses the word suet 7 times. Suet. Did he just learn the word or something?
Leal is used 13 times. Every servant or subject is leal.
He uses nightsoil 5 times. Not that many but it's kind of strange, he has no issue with shit being shit, but decides to throw in nightsoil 5 times.
I can't recall in previous books but there's 40 references to serjeants in this book, has he ever used this rank before? I can't say he hasn't but he has never used it as many times as he did in this book. He loves him some serjeants on both sides of the sea.
Felt like the whole book was just stapled together from random chapters of varying quality he had written over the billion years since AFFC.
I mentioned it after reading the last book, but while reading through the series you can see the point where he learns / stumbles into a new (archaic) term, and how frequently it gets used after that. "Leal" being one of them. Some others were dugs, palfrey, much and more, etc. They don't appear for a couple books, then they happen all the time.
"Much and more" and "little and less" get used exponentially over the series too.
aGoT: 0 times
aCoK: 5 times
aSoS: 10 times
aFfC: 22 times
aDwD: 47 times
Must be more of the secret brilliance of GRRM
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it makes me kinda sad that some people here cant appreciate the possibilities of their own language
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Just finished the otherday DWD SPOILERS : )
+ Show Spoiler +
There were just way too many characters that did not really do anything. The only enjoyable chapter or event that involved the Prince of Dorne q.martell was when he looked down to find himself on fire. It had a touch of black humor to it for me since I didn't his character and his goal was so lofty. Tyrion had some enjoyable dialog but outside of that his chapters were disappointing though it was nice to see ser jorah again.
Dany's chapters were what I expected and I enjoyed them at first. The problem was (take it easy on me I havent read the other books in a while) usually Dany solves her current problem at the end of the books. I know she realized what she has to do but because she didn't do it I didnt like her part of the story. Barristan was pretty awesome and his fight was one of the better parts.
Jon is probably my favorite character in the series. I kind of didn't understand the end that well for him. He gets a letter and suddenly his riding off to war against his vows? It seemed really out of character perhaps someone can explain or ill re-read that part. Also I don't think hes dead, some kind of mel revival coming up or something.
Arya had the best parts no complaints at all.
I didn't like reek, about all I can say there is it made me realize how much flaying sucks lol.
I think a lot of people will disagree but one thing I didnt like about this book was it felt like there was just way to many phrases repeated over and over. I noticed in the other books but it never bothered me but in this one it got to me. Maybe I just read it too fast. Anyway in summary, it was good some characters were still good but he couldve thrown us a bone and let one or two more major things happen. I think if Dany had solved her situation it would've been a lot better.
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My rant on DwD
+ Show Spoiler +Man has he slowed this series down. Think of the first book and all that happened compared to this one. I still love the series but it's kinda frustrating reading about so much traveling and new characters being thrown in that dont do anything. He just has SO much stuff going on I really dont know how he is even going to begin to wrap things up. Remember the prologue in the first book where the Others were starting to come? Well guess what, they still arent here!!!
Only a little rant for now. I really thought more would happen. Just a little dispointed and frustrated.
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+ Show Spoiler + Thought the book was good but I have a few issues: 1. Dany storyline wasn't advanced at all 2. Arya storyline wasn't advanced enough 3. Bran storyline wasn't advanced enough 4. OMG the cliffhangers! From the way GRRM wrote it, Jon should be 100% dead but he's such a central character that he will probably be revived or some shit. Also I believe that Stannis is alive; Mance Rayder had just caught up with Stannis's host so the Karstarks' treachery should be revealed, Ramsay also didn't find Theon so he probably didn't win the battle. GRRM also shows us that the Bolton host at Winterfell wasn't doing too great either. The northmen could turn on the Boltons anytime during a battle. 5. Favorite line was Ser Alliser's "I'm coming back, Lord Snow." Made me LOL 6. Kevan's death at the end was so sad 
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On July 22 2011 21:03 writer22816 wrote:+ Show Spoiler + Thought the book was good but I have a few issues: 1. Dany storyline wasn't advanced at all 2. Arya storyline wasn't advanced enough 3. Bran storyline wasn't advanced enough 4. OMG the cliffhangers! From the way GRRM wrote it, Jon should be 100% dead but he's such a central character that he will probably be revived or some shit. Also I believe that Stannis is alive; Mance Rayder had just caught up with Stannis's host so the Karstarks' treachery should be revealed, Ramsay also didn't find Theon so he probably didn't win the battle. GRRM also shows us that the Bolton host at Winterfell wasn't doing too great either. The northmen could turn on the Boltons anytime during a battle. 5. Favorite line was Ser Alliser's "I'm coming back, Lord Snow." Made me LOL 6. Kevan's death at the end was so sad
+ Show Spoiler +
That was your favorite quote? When Manderly told Seaworth something like "Find me my true liege lord and I will declare Stannis my king" I got chills
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On July 22 2011 01:17 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 22:37 MamiyaOtaru wrote:On July 21 2011 12:19 floor exercise wrote:The writing/editing seemed really inconsistent/lazy. None of this spoils anything plotwise but I may as well keep with tradition + Show Spoiler +
He uses "words are wind" 13 times. Pretty much every single character says it at least once in this book. It's been said before, but it just seems so fucking lazy to use it over and over, on both continents, like it has just become an incredibly popular turn of phrase around the world. Other things like how Tyrion can't go one paragraph without talking about killing Tywin for half the book bothered me. Or the "where whores go" thing. I got tired of reading the same thing in every chapter
He uses the word suet 7 times. Suet. Did he just learn the word or something?
Leal is used 13 times. Every servant or subject is leal.
He uses nightsoil 5 times. Not that many but it's kind of strange, he has no issue with shit being shit, but decides to throw in nightsoil 5 times.
I can't recall in previous books but there's 40 references to serjeants in this book, has he ever used this rank before? I can't say he hasn't but he has never used it as many times as he did in this book. He loves him some serjeants on both sides of the sea.
Felt like the whole book was just stapled together from random chapters of varying quality he had written over the billion years since AFFC.
I mentioned it after reading the last book, but while reading through the series you can see the point where he learns / stumbles into a new (archaic) term, and how frequently it gets used after that. "Leal" being one of them. Some others were dugs, palfrey, much and more, etc. They don't appear for a couple books, then they happen all the time. "Much and more" and "little and less" get used exponentially over the series too. aGoT: 0 times aCoK: 5 times aSoS: 10 times aFfC: 22 times aDwD: 47 times Must be more of the secret brilliance of GRRM
Must be hard to enjoy anything with that sort of OCD. Best of luck to you in life.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Loved reading DWD, great series. The last fantasy series I read with books of comparable size was Terry Goodkind's Sword of Truth series, which is really just one unnecessarily long book after another unnecessarily long book. Game of Thrones, on the other hand, is an epic, and it requires all these pages just to move this massive plot along.
Although, unlike the Greek epics written in poetry and whatnot, style is not exactly George R R Martin's strong point, but I've gotten used to his style of prose (it used to bug me, maybe he's gotten better but judging by the last few posts about redundant phrasing...)
+ Show Spoiler +
Kind of sad to see Dany's decision making being to falter to teenage hormones... there's nothing wrong with taking a sellsword as a fuckbuddy, but I think her ruling ability really started to suffer. Luckily her meeting Jhago probably means she'll go back to conquering.
Also, I think she should have just taken over Qhorro's (sp?) ships when she was "inspecting" them
Edit: I don't believe Jon is dead. Maybe he is, but it doesn't make sense to me... but then again, Rob's death took me off guard as well. I guess Jon may have already achieved his purpose in letting the wildlings past the wall, which nobody else would have done.
Lastly... Brienne back? She must have been revived by the red priest. This entire series the red priests have been annoying me in that their power seems to strong for what they should be allowed to do, it's just way more predominant than other magics we've seen so far. Eric Dondarion or whatever his name is (I'm really sorry I'm better at recognizing character names than remembering them) romping around with revival after revival and then zombifying Caetlyn... is just fucking WEIRD. But they weren't really in DWD *shrug*
+ Show Spoiler [one of my fav quotes from DWD, not exact] +
The place was overrun with rats. Then the spearwives shooed them away. Now the place is overrun with spearwives. I think I miss the rats.
+ Show Spoiler [the thing that probably kept me going…] +
My desire to see Tyrion by Dany's side and advising her. I WOULD SO LOVE TO SEE THAT!
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The general sentiment that my friends and I (and the internets) all seem to share is that there is simply too much filler in Dance. The book finally started to get interesting the last 200 or so pages, but then it ended. There was no real reason to make Feast and Dance two separate books. If George had been disciplined, he could have cut out many of the POVs, combined/merged some others, and could have fit everything into one book. At this rate, the plot is advancing at a snail's pace, and there is no way he can complete the series in 7 books.
To give an example of the redundancy:
Dany's chapters - oh shit shit shit shit, shit is hitting the fan, i am in a shitty situation what do i do??? let's have dozens of pages of dialog about it where i reiterate how screwed i am!
Jon's chapters - oh shit shit shit shit, shit is hitting the fan, i am in a shitty situation what do i do??? let's have dozens of pages of dialog about it where i reiterate how screwed i am!
EDIT: forgot to mention Tyrion's travel chapters. Ok we get it, he is travelling from point A to point B. My biggest gripe about LOTR is that it seemed like a giant nature walk, and in Dance, that's basically what it felt like with Tyrion's chapters. Luckily, he is my fav character and has razor sharp wit, but really, most of those travel chapters could have been cut.
like literally, Dany and Jon's chapters were just them sitting around and talking about how awful things were. I'm no writer, but it seems to me that George could have combined all those chapters into 1-2 chapters as a flashback, where the characters think back on how/why various decisions were made. Because as is, the major plot developments didn't happen until the last 200 ish pages of the book. Whereas in his other books, there'd be a major plot development, but there'd be a resolution. Example - Red Wedding occured, and then we see the fallout from it. Dance basically ends with shit finally hitting the fan, but we have no idea what's to follow.
Frog's POV didn't make much sense to me, it could have been removed altogether from the book.
Favorite quote in the book:
+ Show Spoiler +Roose Bolton is like "Don't make me regret having raped your mom!" and Ramsay, a cold blooded monster, sits there and takes it like a little bitch. LOLOLOLOLOLOL!
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good:
+ Show Spoiler +
first 1/3rd was overall very good. It felt nice just sinking into the world.
Freys for dinner!
Reek
Davos!
Cercei's walk
Tyrion up until he fell in the river
The fear of winter and the ever present risk of starvation
thinking Dany was riding the pale mare for half a second
bad:
+ Show Spoiler +
Dany not riding the pale mare.. or just that GRRM didn't do anything with her
Tyrion after he fell in the river
The world getting too magical
The mummer's dragon. I didn't see it comming, but I wasn't suprised or in awe of the revelation of Aegon either. Contrieved and boring.
Not doing anything interesting with Asha
Too much build up, zero pay-off
Jon's "death." Too predictable and boring, though I have a feeling that one of the overall stories of the series is going to be the ultimate extinction of House Stark
the overall pointlessness of Jaime's chapter and Brienne's reappearance
The book is basically 300 pages too long
ugly:
+ Show Spoiler +
Penny - the ultimate redundant character
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c'mon the book was good. Better than AFFC, and even though that one was slow it wasn't a bad book and it gets even better on re-reads.
+ Show Spoiler +
Overall the book was more eventful than the last one, but don't forget it is the sister to AFFC, so since their wasn't much development in that one their can't happen alot in this on considering they share the same timeline. Im a little disappointed that this one ended in so many cliffhangers just as the last one, even those from AFFC weren't resolved - just prolonged. Tyrion and Victarion not getting to Dany, Brienne/Jaime, Cersei and her trial, Stannis, Jon, Dany, Loras, Margaery.
Theon chapters were some of the best in the whole series. Victarion is an hilarious sob. Dany, Tyrion and even Jon didn't accomplish much but it was ok. The next books should have a faster pace if there's only 2 left.
Btw, Jon warged into Ghost before he died, Theon doesn't have a dick and Rickon is on skagos. Dany had a miscarriage. Stannis most likely lives and Tormund somehow decieved Jon.
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Dance
+ Show Spoiler +Favorite part from the book is without a doubt where Danny breaks Drogon, thought it was pretty well written and an important moment for Danny as a character.
Ooh and i certainly can't be the only one but Victarion chapters just went from fail/boring to fucking awesome.
Seriously Victarion with his new red priest (more like super Mellisandre) and his burned arm is so much fun to read about. Sacrificing 7 (the seven) slave girls on a boat (The drowned god) with fire (R'hollor), talk about practical.
He was a complete snooze fest in Feast, the only cool fact being that he fought on his boat with full battle armor because he didn't fear drowning. But in Dance he has bad ass pirateing and monkeys.
I think he only gets like 2-3 chapters but all of them are probably the best chapters in the entire book.
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+ Show Spoiler +800 pages of background information and characters moving around the world, doing nothing. 100 pages of stuff happening. Cliffhangers en masse.
Still liked it, though.
Dany's chapters were...ugh...I mean, all her talk of "I'm the blood of the Dragon" etc. and she can't get anything done. Even lets a deadly disease loose in the only town she has. Oh well, at least she tamed a dragon, took her long enough.
I was very proud of myself, when I predicted who "Young Griff" was before Tyrion spelt it out. ^^
Favorite part(parts actually):
"The fisherman drowned, but his daughter got Stark to the Sisters before the boat went down. They say he left her with a bag of silver and a bastard in her belly. Jon Snow, she named him, after Arryn."
And only a few chapters later: "Did Ned Stark father you on some fishwife?" :D
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Oh had one question because I've seen this brought up on various forums, but must have missed it ...
+ Show Spoiler [pies] +Frey pies?
I was trying to re-read the dinner feast section but here are the only clues I saw:
- three Freys who had visited Wanderly had disappeared
- there are three "barrel sized" pies
- Manderly urges the Freys to eat the pies as "these are the best pies you've ever tasted!"
Did I miss any other clues?
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+ Show Spoiler +I felt so dumb when my gf had to point to me that Mance is the singer in winterfell with his spearwives beeing the girls who help theon...Abel is even an anagram of Bael. How could ive missed that? Does anyone else missed crucial things and felt pretty stupid afterwards?
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On July 26 2011 06:27 chroniX wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I felt so dumb when my gf had to point to me that Mance is the singer in winterfell with his spearwives beeing the girls who help theon...Abel is even an anagram of Bael. How could ive missed that? Does anyone else missed crucial things and felt pretty stupid afterwards?
Well the book does have a few things like that where it's very subtle in pointing things out.
+ Show Spoiler +GRRM has always written like this. A good number of people were flipping out when they saw Renly Baratheon was gay on HBO, some even yelling "how can they break from the books like that?", whilst ofcourse Renly is gay in the books aswell. You don't always catch on to those things but when they get pointed out you think "how could i have missed that". Renly has a rainbow guard, once you realise that you feel kinda silly for missing it.
In Dance it was the fact that Theon has been castrated by Ramsay. It's never directly adressed but there are some lines wich basically remove any doubt. Still one of those things you can easily miss.
In sharp contrast i found that Tyrion being taken by Jorah was rather obvious. The moment that chapter ended where Tyrion got kidnapped i instantly knew it was Jorah and when he was talking about bringing Tyrion to the queen i always knew he was talking about Danny.
All in all though, GRRM tends to write some stuff pretty subtle to the point where it's easy to miss.
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On July 26 2011 06:10 fishjie wrote:Oh had one question because I've seen this brought up on various forums, but must have missed it ... + Show Spoiler [pies] +Frey pies?
I was trying to re-read the dinner feast section but here are the only clues I saw:
- three Freys who had visited Wanderly had disappeared
- there are three "barrel sized" pies
- Manderly urges the Freys to eat the pies as "these are the best pies you've ever tasted!"
Did I miss any other clues?
+ Show Spoiler +Yes. He also requested the song about the rat-cook. I don't remember exactly how it went but someone served someone else his kin (son i believe) as meat (i think it was in a pie).
Also the way he went on about the pies, and because of his talk with Davos we knew he was planning something. There might have been some more clues but i forgot.
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On July 26 2011 06:10 fishjie wrote:Oh had one question because I've seen this brought up on various forums, but must have missed it ... + Show Spoiler [pies] +Frey pies?
I was trying to re-read the dinner feast section but here are the only clues I saw:
- three Freys who had visited Wanderly had disappeared
- there are three "barrel sized" pies
- Manderly urges the Freys to eat the pies as "these are the best pies you've ever tasted!"
Did I miss any other clues?
+ Show Spoiler +Also, Manderly asks for the song about the Rat King.
+ Show Spoiler [Young Griff] +
So, who thinks that Young Griff is the real Aegon?
I'm inclined to believe that he's a fake as there is the prophecy about a Mummer's Dragon and the vision in the House of the Undying of a fake dragon on stilts.
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On July 26 2011 05:39 fishjie wrote:The general sentiment that my friends and I (and the internets) all seem to share is that there is simply too much filler in Dance. The book finally started to get interesting the last 200 or so pages, but then it ended. There was no real reason to make Feast and Dance two separate books. If George had been disciplined, he could have cut out many of the POVs, combined/merged some others, and could have fit everything into one book. At this rate, the plot is advancing at a snail's pace, and there is no way he can complete the series in 7 books. To give an example of the redundancy: Dany's chapters - oh shit shit shit shit, shit is hitting the fan, i am in a shitty situation what do i do??? let's have dozens of pages of dialog about it where i reiterate how screwed i am! Jon's chapters - oh shit shit shit shit, shit is hitting the fan, i am in a shitty situation what do i do??? let's have dozens of pages of dialog about it where i reiterate how screwed i am! EDIT: forgot to mention Tyrion's travel chapters. Ok we get it, he is travelling from point A to point B. My biggest gripe about LOTR is that it seemed like a giant nature walk, and in Dance, that's basically what it felt like with Tyrion's chapters. Luckily, he is my fav character and has razor sharp wit, but really, most of those travel chapters could have been cut. like literally, Dany and Jon's chapters were just them sitting around and talking about how awful things were. I'm no writer, but it seems to me that George could have combined all those chapters into 1-2 chapters as a flashback, where the characters think back on how/why various decisions were made. Because as is, the major plot developments didn't happen until the last 200 ish pages of the book. Whereas in his other books, there'd be a major plot development, but there'd be a resolution. Example - Red Wedding occured, and then we see the fallout from it. Dance basically ends with shit finally hitting the fan, but we have no idea what's to follow. Frog's POV didn't make much sense to me, it could have been removed altogether from the book. Favorite quote in the book: + Show Spoiler +Roose Bolton is like "Don't make me regret having raped your mom!" and Ramsay, a cold blooded monster, sits there and takes it like a little bitch. LOLOLOLOLOLOL!
This happens with almost every fantasy series. If you need another modern example just look at robert jordan. Seems that keeping from the sprawling later books is very hard.
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On July 26 2011 06:46 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 06:27 chroniX wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I felt so dumb when my gf had to point to me that Mance is the singer in winterfell with his spearwives beeing the girls who help theon...Abel is even an anagram of Bael. How could ive missed that? Does anyone else missed crucial things and felt pretty stupid afterwards? Well the book does have a few things like that where it's very subtle in pointing things out. + Show Spoiler +GRRM has always written like this. A good number of people were flipping out when they saw Renly Baratheon was gay on HBO, some even yelling "how can they break from the books like that?", whilst ofcourse Renly is gay in the books aswell. You don't always catch on to those things but when they get pointed out you think "how could i have missed that". Renly has a rainbow guard, once you realise that you feel kinda silly for missing it.
In Dance it was the fact that Theon has been castrated by Ramsay. It's never directly adressed but there are some lines wich basically remove any doubt. Still one of those things you can easily miss.
In sharp contrast i found that Tyrion being taken by Jorah was rather obvious. The moment that chapter ended where Tyrion got kidnapped i instantly knew it was Jorah and when he was talking about bringing Tyrion to the queen i always knew he was talking about Danny.
All in all though, GRRM tends to write some stuff pretty subtle to the point where it's easy to miss.
+ Show Spoiler +Yeah I think it's great to read.
I caught most things in this book but i failed to understand how Arya killed the insurance-man, evem though i carefully noted how he bit every coin.
There are alot of even smaller things that I wasn't even close to catch on to in the series. Stuff that don't have any importance to the plot what so ever but add alot to the story if you can spot it. Loras and Renly being gay is quite obvious, but how about Loras being illiterate? I love shit like that.
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EPT
