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Silvanel
Poland4733 Posts
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levelping
Singapore759 Posts
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Darkhorse
United States23455 Posts
On July 30 2014 16:20 Silvanel wrote: I will not continue this disscussion, beacuse that would lead to me eventually being banned. I just want to state that i am not happy with this "policy" for reasons stated above. First of all, why do you assume you'll be banned for making an argument? Unless you think you'll sink into some hateful rant that probably won't happen. Second, "I want to state that I am not happy and refer to the statements I already made about how I'm not happy" seems like a pointless post. | ||
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zeo
Serbia6303 Posts
On July 30 2014 15:45 Kleinmuuhg wrote: So what I was expecting was a thread full of (maybe slightly over-the-top) praise for a nice gesture. I am so confused and baffled by some of these responses, I really am. Actually this is kinda the way the thread went last year. Be thankful it hasn't turned into a religion debate... I don't know why the banner was changed again this year, is this the only thing the banner will be changed for? We could have had a 4th July banner, or something with national holidays in France, Germany, Sweden ect. This just seems stale and repetitive, there are many other people on this forum that would feel nice if they got some attention. And no, nobody is saying LGBT problems in the world are solved. It's just that stuff like abortion, religion, gay whatever debates are things that generally people go into with their opinions already formed. I can see the logic behind doing it once last year, hey its just TL showing their political stance on a subject so now we know. I don't see what the point of putting it up again this year. What exactly does it do that makes it more important than other possible banners? | ||
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gingerfluffmuff
Austria4570 Posts
At least the banner produces a few laughs i guess. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On July 30 2014 11:39 r.Evo wrote: Is it really? As with many other kinksters I remember having fantasies since a rather young age (12-14) and as with many others I could not imagine having a kink-free relationship. If you look around for a bit you find dozens of stories about people who have been married for 10+ years in vanilla relationships, people who have tried to adjust to the "sexual norm" and people who are genuinely suffering under the feeling that they are completely abnormal and disgusting. It's eerily similar to LGBT stories, is it not? As a gay kinkster, I can tell you that one dwarfs the other in terms of identity and importance. I don't really want to bleat about being gay because I'm not really that afflicted at all. In fact precisely *because* I'm not particularly afflicted by my sexuality, yet it still has the impact it does, speaks to its importance. The kink/sexual orientation comparison is really out of place. edit: On July 30 2014 12:07 levelping wrote: To put it plainly, kink and homosexuals are different things. Yes there are common issues but to suggest that your sexual fetishism is on the same order as sexual orientation is just not intellectually honest. You're not applying your mind to the degree to which kink and orientation feature in people's lives. And further it's a false comparison between public violent sex and homosexuality. Pride Parades aren't all about sex in public it's a celebration about being gay, which as we have taken pains to point out, is much more than anal sex. Look, just because the kink community does things one way does not mean that it's the best way for all minorities. I've no idea why you seem to think that the gay community should follow the kink model as well. How about you guys do your thing and the gays do their thing. Heck if you want your consensual rape parade go ahead. If you never wanted one in the first place then why complain about pride parades? Finally as to the rainbow horse I'd really suggest that you let those who are more connected to the issue decide on whether it's meaningful. From your posts it seems that you're not lgbtq and so probably aren't in the best position to say whether the rainbow horse is good or not. In addition, the need for you to limit all your arguments to countries with very liberal gay laws already suggests that you concede that this could well be a meaningful gesture to the rest of the world who aren't from Germany and Scandinavia. On a personal note I find it rather annoying that you're commenting on the usefulness of a gesture which does not really affect you, and holding teamliquid to your own arbitrary standard of what would be "appropriate action". This sort of sentiment seems to me to be implicitly dismissive of actual lgbtq people who do have a very real stake in this issue. I mean if we accept what you're saying completely we would have to remove the rainbow horse (assuming we aren't going to do more) despite the fact that many members both lgbtq and straight find meaningful. Empathy man. Have some. This is a top post, as was one or two others I saw from this user in this thread. | ||
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packrat386
United States5077 Posts
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r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
On July 30 2014 15:35 hfglgg wrote: good to know that our religious fanatic r.evo is back to continue his crusade against the evil gays he started last year. Please quote me being a religious fanatic or crusading against evil gays. Unless throwing out baseless insults is your thing. On July 30 2014 13:03 levelping wrote:Finally what you are proposing is that tl either so it all or nothing. This is first a false dichotomy that arises from a purely arbitrary standard you have created. It's a standard I have observed from this website in basically anything it has done over the last 10 years. I simply can't remember any similar occasion on which a thing got so few actual content while at the same time being close to it's core values. Can you? Second, I think this thread and the fact that not all tl readers come fromm the countries of Germany and Scandinavia (another artifical restriction you rely on to make your arguments work - if we are talking about the world it is pretty obvious that the kink community is able to legally get married, have children etc everywhere but homosexuals aren't able to, entirely negating your concern that what happens between consensual adults should receive the same rights (which as a matter of fact they don't), and leaving your argument with no legs to stand on) readily demonstrate that contrary to your expectations many do find this a meaningful and good expression of support. I have mentioned kink specifically as something that gets treated worse than e.g. homosexuality by professionals (e.g. therapists) and I have mentioned polyamory relationships specifically as something that gets treated worse than homosexuality when it comes to legal rights and obligations. For example there is no available legal concept for a FFM or MMF triade (nor MMM nor FFF) in Germany that is equivalent to what we have as registered life partnerships (which are essentially the same as a marriage for a hetero- or homosexual couple that doesn't want to / can't get married). Your notion that we should take this whole thing down without coverage of Amsterdam Pride is pretty disrespectful of everyone else's (many of whom might, unlike yourself, actually be lgbtq and so have a personal stake in this) view of this being quite meaningful. As stated before I genuinely don't care which topic or which organization, a mere optical change with zero additional content is the lowest possible form of "support" one can offer. That in combination of it coming from an organization and being supported by a community that prides itself with high quality content and actually giving a fuck is what annoys me. It just so happened to be a rainbow horse, I'd make the exact same statement if TL would just change its logo for some kink event or in support of Euromaidan. | ||
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Itachii
Poland12466 Posts
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9714 Posts
On July 30 2014 23:31 Itachii wrote: Next time make a poll about it, not everyone supports these people and communities. Why make a poll? Its not strictly speaking our website. The people who run it can do what they want. | ||
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levelping
Singapore759 Posts
1) Seeing as we have had a gay kinkster (who would be best able to shed light on this) address us on how bad the comparison between being gay and being a kinkster is, I really feel like you're grasping at straws at this point. So to summarily just deal with your comparison to polygamy: - Polygamy discrimination is suffered by a small portion of the kink community. Gay discrimination is suffered by the entire gay community. Bad comparison. - Even if you were making a point about polygamy specifically and not kink (thereby I suppose conceding all your prior arguments on kink), no one is stopping you from doing a polygamy parade. Just because you don't do it doesn't mean gays should not have their parades. Again, bad comparison. 2) Regarding your "all or nothing" standard which you observed from Teamliquid across the years, this is first demonstrably false. Teamliquid staff have to do many things at the same time, and so they have to priorities their resources to do what they consider necessary. An easy example is how Teamliquid obviously cannot have write ups for ALL starcraft events, and so various smaller tournaments have to be overlooked for coverage on the big ones. If possible, the smaller tournaments might get a small mention, or a live thread, or being on the featured streams. This isn't full coverage, but it's pretty neat and some nice (albeit limited) publicity for these smaller events. This is starcraft by the way, the entire purpose why this site exists, and so I cannot think of something which is more close to the site's core values. Now even if what you say is true, and that Teamliquid is this amazing all or nothing place, why can't Teamliquid do this particular initiative to a limited extent? Where is the rule that says "all or nothing, for everything?". Furthermore, Teamliquid isn't a gay site, so why would you think that celebrating gay pride is central to the core values of a video game site? As per the OP, this isn't supposed to be some expansion of TL's core values to cover gay issues, but a small show of support for our LGBTQ gamers. So your point on this is really not factual, and even if it were, does not preclude TL acting in a limited way for this particular project. 3) I think you're firstly missing the point. We're in a thread where various LGBTQ people have come out to say they find the rainbow horse meaningful. Straight people have said the same. You on the other seem to think that it's all meaningless and it should be taken down if we're just changing some colours. I hope you can see that your strident insistence on how meaningless this is is taking a huge dump on everyone else's views on the matter. Other people, gay people (you know, the people we are actually showing support for) find it meaningful. Yet you, who have no personal interest in this (since you say you don't care which topic or organisation is featured), are coming out to say that all the gay people are wrong, and that this is really meaningless. That's just ridiculously disrespectful. It's as if we changed the horse to an Islamic crescent to show solidarity with the people in Gaza, and some Palestinian posters come and say hey, thanks TL it means a lot. Yet you, with all your privileges and rights from living in a first world economy with no war and no need to worry about getting blown to bits, you think it necessary to coming along and say "a mere optical change with zero additional content is the lowest possible form of "support" one can offer, and that it annoys you". How about you let the people to whom the support is intended decide? (pre-emptively, Gaza is just an example, and so if you want to take issue with the example and not the principle behind it, I'm not really keen on engaging you further on the example) TL also gives a fuck btw. This is far from a token change of colour - this is just a more visible part of TL's very inclusive policy on our community, which includes the strict moderation on homophobic comments. It's rather short sighted of you to suggest that all TL does is change the colour of the horse once a year. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9714 Posts
Didn't want to quote all that. The logo change has been enough to inspire a 7 page thread that's still near the top of the page. This thread allows people to discuss the issue and show their support or otherwise. TL generally doesn't offer support to causes too much, because it would become something its not. Its still a gaming website/forum. A small gesture is fine IMO. | ||
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Grettin
42381 Posts
On July 30 2014 23:31 Itachii wrote: Next time make a poll about it, not everyone supports these people and communities. Their house, their rules. They don't need your or our opinion on anything. Better get over it. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28706 Posts
Then how come there's no major kinkster or polyamorist movement? How come they're not visibly fighting for their rights? I'm lead to believe that there are two possible reasons, possibly a third I guess ; 1: kinksters/polyamorists are (very) few in number compared to homosexuals. 2: kinksters/polyamorists aren't, on average, that troubled by the lack of societal acceptance because they still find someone to be with, like for example you mentioned that there are self-organized groups. There's a possible 3; in that kinksters and polyamorists consider themselves /are considered more deviant than homosexuals do/are and that they have a much harder time finding people to talk about it, but if this is the case I'd expect it to be connected with the first point.. Basically, you're bringing up sexual minorities that which I've hardly even thought about the existence of or problems pertaining to, as a parallel to homosexuality- a group that comprises between 5 and 10% of our population and which has been persecuted in ways ranging from death to castration to simply being social outcasts. It's just not a good comparison. Also, one important tidbit, because I see people bringing up stuff like Euromaidan or Palestine. Our staff comes from a very diverse background, and we are not politically aligned. Look at the Gaza thread, or whatever other discussion about that topic. Shit gets heated. I'm normally a very calm and level-headed individual, at least in my own eyes, but I can't discuss Palestine/Israel without becoming angry. For us, with our background, to possibly agree on any type of statement or whatever on this issue? Not a chance. And that basically goes for most issues. Except homosexuality; we can all agree that discrimination of homosexuals continues to be a major issue and one that is particularly relevant to our demographic. I agree entirely that starving africans, the situation in Syria Gaza Sudan whatever other hotspot you wanna talk about, these are all bigger global issues than the situation for homosexual teenagers and young adults in the more developed and educated regions of the world. But only the latter group is actually here, and they are continuing to state their happiness about our gesture. I don't understand why you insist on saying that our gesture is completely meaningless when homosexuals within our community are saying that they appreciate it. This should have proven to you by now that the gesture does hold meaning and that people care. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On July 30 2014 23:31 Itachii wrote: Next time make a poll about it, not everyone supports these people and communities. Nah, you're all set. Plus this is TL. They own this house and do what they want. If you don't like it, you can, well, I guess complaint about it in this thread. | ||
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Beirut
United States673 Posts
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mainerd
United States347 Posts
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misirlou
Portugal3241 Posts
On July 30 2014 23:52 Liquid`Drone wrote: but r.Evo, it actually is somewhat of a numbers game here.. if you wanna make the argument that for each individual polyamorist or kinkster, lack of societal acceptance is just as much or a bigger problem than it is for gays, then I'm like, ok, maybe, I have no way of really evaluating that. But for this hypothetical, we can agree that that is the case. I don't particularly agree with r.Evo's points but what you and other people are saying is that we should only care about minorities if they are big enough, and I think that is hypocritical. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28706 Posts
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Ctesias
4595 Posts
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