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Netherlands6142 Posts
Good morning brothers and sisters, comrades and friends,
As you found your way to TeamLiquid’s homepage this day, you hopefully noticed the cheerful demeanor of our top banner. Some may recognize the rainbow-dyed mane of our horse logo from last year and others, if confused, have hopefully found their way here.
But let me start at the beginning. To many of us, TeamLiquid is more than a newssite, a calendar, or a forum: it’s a community. Over the years, our users have bonded, friendships have formed, alliances forged, and while TL might have a comprehensive set of rules and guidelines, we also hold one another up to unwritten standards. We try to treat everyone with respect, dignity, and copious amounts of friendliness, hoping that this will result in a welcome place for anyone to come and join us in enjoying the one thing that bonds us all: esports.
In forwarding this message, we’d like to extend our support and goodwill to those members of our userbase that belong to the LGBT community who may face hardship or discrimination elsewhere in the world, online or off. This week, coinciding with Amsterdam’s Pride Week, we’re showing our rainbow colours, hoping to raise awareness, and provoke some thought. With this small gesture we hope to contribute to our journey towards acceptance and equality for all, and by all.
TL loves ESPORTS, equally.
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Awesome good cause, Can't do anything but love and support this amazing community and all it does for us. Thank you all very much.
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Norway28665 Posts
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
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This website is, as always, incredible.
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United States23455 Posts
Teamliquid is such an incredible website. Love this
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Makes me so happy to see!
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Woooot rainbow pony is back!
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Bisutopia19234 Posts
 cheers!
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Oh, i was wondering what's with all the colors.
Very interesting, good initiative TL! Respect.
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Love that this banner came back. Lending a little support for such a great cause is always fantastic. And it looks pretty as well 
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Awesome you all are doing this all people should be treated with respect and dignity.
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Oh, and here I thought it meant that liquid formally accepted rainbow dash as best pony. /s
Nice little gesture. Simple and to the point I like it. 
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Canada5155 Posts
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Thanks TL. Kind of unexpected but as a semi-closeted bisexual it's nice to see.
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Like I mentioned in the previous thread, an unnecessary political statement and a slap in the face of those who contribute to the site that do not share the same political views.
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On July 26 2014 14:27 Gen.Rolly wrote:
Like I mentioned in the previous thread, an unnecessary political statement and a slap in the face of those who contribute to the site that do not share the same political views.
It's a nice gesture, get over it. This probably means a lot to someone out there, don't shit on it.
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United States31 Posts
On July 26 2014 14:27 Gen.Rolly wrote:
Like I mentioned in the previous thread, an unnecessary political statement and a slap in the face of those who contribute to the site that do not share the same political views.
Acceptance of other human beings is not a political view. Get over yourself.
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On July 26 2014 14:27 Gen.Rolly wrote:
Like I mentioned in the previous thread, an unnecessary political statement and a slap in the face of those who contribute to the site that do not share the same political views.
Civil rights should not be a partisan platform, and bigotry should not be tolerated.
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Baa?21243 Posts
On July 26 2014 14:27 Gen.Rolly wrote:
Like I mentioned in the previous thread, an unnecessary political statement and a slap in the face of those who contribute to the site that do not share the same political views.
You're welcome to leave the site if this upsets you.
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On July 26 2014 14:27 Gen.Rolly wrote:
Like I mentioned in the previous thread, an unnecessary political statement and a slap in the face of those who contribute to the site that do not share the same political views.
You don't get it. TL is supporting acceptance of gays, not asking everyone to be gay.
If your political views are against being gay, then it's fine for you to not be gay yourself. But you should let other people with different views be gay if they really want to.
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Baltimore, USA22254 Posts
I just like the pretty colors.
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On July 26 2014 16:11 EvilTeletubby wrote:
I just like the pretty colors.
Me too I wish it would stay like that always
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Austria24417 Posts
Rainbow horse is the best horse!
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Thinking about it, I am quite happy that one of the few popular "big causes" of today that I fully support has adopted my favourite thing (colours!!!!) as its symbol.
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Came in like a raaaaainboooow
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On July 26 2014 15:43 Pangpootata wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 14:27 Gen.Rolly wrote:
Like I mentioned in the previous thread, an unnecessary political statement and a slap in the face of those who contribute to the site that do not share the same political views. You don't get it. TL is supporting acceptance of gays, not asking everyone to be gay. If your political views are against being gay, then it's fine for you to not be gay yourself. But you should let other people with different views be gay if they really want to.
I don't think that's the point that people are making who are annoyed by things like this. Want to be gay? Awesome. Same sex (non-religious) marriage? Awesome. Equal rights by all means? Awesome. We (as the western world) are already there (well, except for parts of America and Italy...). It's beating a dead horse, it's like asking to free slaves or to stop religious discrimination in the western world while gays in India get burned alive or while polyamory is still a concept that is in no shape or form accepted by any government (hell, I had arguments with gays and lesbians telling me that it should stay forbidden because it's indecent and against their cause).
This whole thing has turned from an equal rights movement to one huge party once in a while and it tends to be the most "up in your face" party of any similar kind. There are no Black Pride Parades, Jewish Pride Parades or Feminist Pride Parades that tell you LOOK AT US WE'RE X AND IT'S AWESOME TO BE X; I SAID LOOK AT US AND CELEBRATE US; IF YOU DON'T YOU'RE AN ASSHOLE - simply because those groups understood that celebrating something that should be considered normal makes it more weird instead of more normal.
The tip of the iceberg is a site like TL officially endorsing this, putting it above any and all possible things one could endorse. I don't recall a "Let's remember 9/11", "Let's give the horse a Martin Luther King outlook today" or "Let's do something for the First World War Centenary". Hell, the exact same case that made sodomy laws illegal in the US was used to prevent people from marrying multiple people if they so desire. No one cares despite a minority being criminalized for wanting to be happy with their loved ones. I'm all for supporting equal rights, equally. I'm just annoyed with picking one specific issue due to personal reasons and calling it "fighting for equal rights".
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I don't think many Blacks, Jews, or Feminists feel the needs to hide who they are and lie to people for fear of persecution or ridicule. I'm pretty sure those demographics don't commit suicide at an alarming rate. All TL is doing (and they did the same thing last year) is showing support for people in the community, letting them know they have a place they can be themselves and not be afraid. TL has their back and there's nothing wrong, there's no need to hide, they're accepted here with open arms. As far as I'm concerned that's a good thing and there's nothing wrong with it.
There really aren't any logical arguments against polygamy, certainly I've never heard one. As long as it's between consenting adults wtf do I care? But this isn't really the place for that discussion.
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Implement this to TL HS and Dota as well!
Maybe this will allow humanity to move in the right direction. It might not seem that important issue when compared to, for example poverty or evil dictators, but I'm still convinced that in the long run this is for the best. People shouldn't be discriminated for their intimate beliefs. To those saying they're always rubbing their 'gay propaganda' under your nose, consider this: if you wouldn't get angry every time a gay person is in your sight, maybe there would be less of this so called 'propaganda'. It's none of your business what other people do when they're alone.
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Good move, just as it was last year.
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Russian Federation66 Posts
I appreciate your support. But I doubt the society in my country will become accepting anytime soon.
BTW the rainbow logo looks really cool.
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On July 26 2014 18:00 OuchyDathurts wrote:
I don't think many Blacks, Jews, or Feminists feel the needs to hide who they are and lie to people for fear of persecution or ridicule. I'm pretty sure those demographics don't commit suicide at an alarming rate. All TL is doing (and they did the same thing last year) is showing support for people in the community, letting them know they have a place they can be themselves and not be afraid. TL has their back and there's nothing wrong, there's no need to hide, they're accepted here with open arms. As far as I'm concerned that's a good thing and there's nothing wrong with it.
There really aren't any logical arguments against polygamy, certainly I've never heard one. As long as it's between consenting adults wtf do I care? But this isn't really the place for that discussion.
Just as an example since you brought that point up, while certainly significant and something that needs more effort put in it isn't an "alarming rate" if you compare it to suicide statistics of e.g. a race specific context. In a nutshell youth that reports as same-sex-attracted has the same ratio of suicide attempts compared to non-SSA youth as White People to Black People in their suicide rate. (Note that it's attempts vs rate, I couldn't find other data quickly. Also yes, Whites commit suicide 2x as much as Blacks and we don't consider it alarming either.)
Suicide attempts of reportedly same sex attracted youth is 1.6-2.5x that of their control group with the most significant increased risk factors being alcohol abuse, depression and Family members suicide/attempt (smaller one) while "feeling hopeless" or "being victimized" are not significantly increased risk factors.
e: Just to make it clear the main causes of the increased rates in suicide attempts is (for males) is alcohol abuse (70% higher), depression (20%), Family member's suicide/attempt (more than 100% but comparatively a very small factor) and Victimization (20%). For females it comes down to alcohol abuse (80%), depression (20%), Family member's suicide/attempt (50%, again very small factor) and Victimization (50%). However the huge huge point is that e.g. Depression and Alcohol abuse combined for boys is the cause for 26x more suicide attempts than them being victimized. For girls those two combined make up for almost 60x more suicide attempts than being victimized.
The point I'm trying to make with this is that the youth suicide attempt rate can be considered no issue at all when you look at violence against gays or lesbians. It is not even remotely close to what alcohol abuse and depression does to those kids. Where that comes from is another story and can't be solved by statistics but in no shape or form can one argue that the kids who have issues with themselves being attracted to the same sex need to be afraid of violence. Yes, physical violence against them is effectively gone.
Methodology:
+ Show Spoiler +Depression inventory (CES-D)23 based on questions about the past week (items included “You were bothered by things that usually don't bother you,” “You felt depressed,” “You felt lonely,” and “You felt sad”; 0 = never or rarely, 3 = most of the time or all of the time; Cronbach α = 0.81 for boys and 0.85 for girls). The measure for alcohol abuse consisted of the sum of 9 items that indicate problems associated with alcohol use during the past 12 months (items included “You got into trouble with your parents because you had been drinking,” “You did something you later regretted because you had been drinking,” and “You were sick to your stomach or threw up after drinking”; 0 = never, 4 = 5 or more times). Items included in this measure are similar to ones typically used to indicate alcohol problems among adolescents.24 Two questions pertained to recent experiences with suicide: “Have any of your friends tried to kill themselves during the past 12 months?” and “Have any of your family tried to kill themselves during the past 12 months?” (When responses to these questions were affirmative, respondents were then asked “Have any of them succeeded?”) Finally, victimization experiences, because they have been linked to suicidality among gay and lesbian youths,5 were included as suicide risk factors. Victimization was measured with affirmative responses to any of the following 4 items: “Someone pulled a knife or gun on you,” “You were jumped,” “Someone shot you,” and “Someone cut or stabbed you” (1 = victimized).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1446760/
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6213a7.htm?s_cid=mm6213a7_w
~~~~
Look, I think it's cool that TL wants to provide a platform that specifically aims to make feel LGBTers welcome. I think it's not cool that it gets celebrated as "acceptance of other human beings", as pro-"civil rights", "anti-bigotry" or making it about "all people should be treated with respect and dignity" (just quotes from the 1 1/2 pages we have so far). It's not. It's one specific cause, one specific issue that can for all intents and purposes be considered "positively solved" for the vast majority of the western world.
This, out of all the issues on this planet, is what TL chooses to officially support and nothing else. I don't recall anything else being officially backed up. That's what irks me. I would be just as annoyed if TL would exclusively celebrate a Black Pride Week with official logos or exclusively commemorate Feminism as some other examples.
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This is super. TL is great
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On July 26 2014 14:37 Shooz29 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 14:27 Gen.Rolly wrote:
Like I mentioned in the previous thread, an unnecessary political statement and a slap in the face of those who contribute to the site that do not share the same political views. Acceptance of other human beings is not a political view.
This should work both ways (lol) though, which sadly it often times doesn't.
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Yay! TL keeps on being as awesome as ever
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Sweden5554 Posts
On July 26 2014 19:52 HeatEXTEND wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 14:37 Shooz29 wrote:On July 26 2014 14:27 Gen.Rolly wrote:
Like I mentioned in the previous thread, an unnecessary political statement and a slap in the face of those who contribute to the site that do not share the same political views. Acceptance of other human beings is not a political view. This should work both ways (lol) though, which sadly it often times doesn't.
Yeah when political views start to be about dehumanizing people .... that's when really bad things happen.
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On July 26 2014 17:39 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 15:43 Pangpootata wrote:On July 26 2014 14:27 Gen.Rolly wrote:
Like I mentioned in the previous thread, an unnecessary political statement and a slap in the face of those who contribute to the site that do not share the same political views. You don't get it. TL is supporting acceptance of gays, not asking everyone to be gay. If your political views are against being gay, then it's fine for you to not be gay yourself. But you should let other people with different views be gay if they really want to. I don't think that's the point that people are making who are annoyed by things like this. Want to be gay? Awesome. Same sex (non-religious) marriage? Awesome. Equal rights by all means? Awesome. We (as the western world) are already there (well, except for parts of America and Italy...). It's beating a dead horse, it's like asking to free slaves or to stop religious discrimination in the western world while gays in India get burned alive or while polyamory is still a concept that is in no shape or form accepted by any government (hell, I had arguments with gays and lesbians telling me that it should stay forbidden because it's indecent and against their cause). This whole thing has turned from an equal rights movement to one huge party once in a while and it tends to be the most "up in your face" party of any similar kind. There are no Black Pride Parades, Jewish Pride Parades or Feminist Pride Parades that tell you LOOK AT US WE'RE X AND IT'S AWESOME TO BE X; I SAID LOOK AT US AND CELEBRATE US; IF YOU DON'T YOU'RE AN ASSHOLE - simply because those groups understood that celebrating something that should be considered normal makes it more weird instead of more normal. The tip of the iceberg is a site like TL officially endorsing this, putting it above any and all possible things one could endorse. I don't recall a "Let's remember 9/11", "Let's give the horse a Martin Luther King outlook today" or "Let's do something for the First World War Centenary". Hell, the exact same case that made sodomy laws illegal in the US was used to prevent people from marrying multiple people if they so desire. No one cares despite a minority being criminalized for wanting to be happy with their loved ones. I'm all for supporting equal rights, equally. I'm just annoyed with picking one specific issue due to personal reasons and calling it "fighting for equal rights".
what are you even talking about.
1. We are NOT already there. first of all, not everyone on teamliquid is from "the western world".
but you are right, most users are from the us, aka a country where equal rights do not exist in many states. and equal rights also do not exist in many europe countries. germany does not has same sex marriage and does not have equal legal status of adoption. same for many other countries in europe. also, it isnt only about legal status but also about the acceptance in the society. looking at the huge anti-gay protests in france, its quite hard to justifiy that "we are already there"
2. I dont get what kind of problem you have with "picking one specific issue". like, i am not allowed to be against discriminnation in germany because people in africa are starving or what.
i shouldnt support a local soup kichten because people are getting tortured in north korea.
that doesnt make any sense
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nice hot_bit, so proud of you!
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TLADT24920 Posts
I think what you guys are doing is great and hope you continue in the years to come as well. Are there plans for other kinds of support?
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Sweden5554 Posts
On July 26 2014 23:48 BigFan wrote:
I think what you guys are doing is great and hope you continue in the years to come as well. Are there plans for other kinds of support?
Other kind of support for the LGBT(QI?) community or support of other discriminated communities?
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On July 26 2014 22:40 Paljas wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 17:39 r.Evo wrote:On July 26 2014 15:43 Pangpootata wrote:On July 26 2014 14:27 Gen.Rolly wrote:
Like I mentioned in the previous thread, an unnecessary political statement and a slap in the face of those who contribute to the site that do not share the same political views. You don't get it. TL is supporting acceptance of gays, not asking everyone to be gay. If your political views are against being gay, then it's fine for you to not be gay yourself. But you should let other people with different views be gay if they really want to. I don't think that's the point that people are making who are annoyed by things like this. Want to be gay? Awesome. Same sex (non-religious) marriage? Awesome. Equal rights by all means? Awesome. We (as the western world) are already there (well, except for parts of America and Italy...). It's beating a dead horse, it's like asking to free slaves or to stop religious discrimination in the western world while gays in India get burned alive or while polyamory is still a concept that is in no shape or form accepted by any government (hell, I had arguments with gays and lesbians telling me that it should stay forbidden because it's indecent and against their cause). This whole thing has turned from an equal rights movement to one huge party once in a while and it tends to be the most "up in your face" party of any similar kind. There are no Black Pride Parades, Jewish Pride Parades or Feminist Pride Parades that tell you LOOK AT US WE'RE X AND IT'S AWESOME TO BE X; I SAID LOOK AT US AND CELEBRATE US; IF YOU DON'T YOU'RE AN ASSHOLE - simply because those groups understood that celebrating something that should be considered normal makes it more weird instead of more normal. The tip of the iceberg is a site like TL officially endorsing this, putting it above any and all possible things one could endorse. I don't recall a "Let's remember 9/11", "Let's give the horse a Martin Luther King outlook today" or "Let's do something for the First World War Centenary". Hell, the exact same case that made sodomy laws illegal in the US was used to prevent people from marrying multiple people if they so desire. No one cares despite a minority being criminalized for wanting to be happy with their loved ones. I'm all for supporting equal rights, equally. I'm just annoyed with picking one specific issue due to personal reasons and calling it "fighting for equal rights". what are you even talking about. 1. We are NOT already there. first of all, not everyone on teamliquid is from "the western world". but you are right, most users are from the us, aka a country where equal rights do not exist in many states. and equal rights also do not exist in many europe countries. germany does not has same sex marriage and does not have equal legal status of adoption. same for many other countries in europe. also, it isnt only about legal status but also about the acceptance in the society. looking at the huge anti-gay protests in france, its quite hard to justifiy that "we are already there"
Oh, please. In Germany a Registered Life Partnership aka "Lebenspartnerschaft" has nowadays effectively the same rights as married couples. Yes a non-married couple (this goes for both same-sex and opposite-sex couples) can't adopt children together. However, one of the partners can adopt a child and the other partner has to give his okay for it. Add in a document that gives the non-adopting partner all the rights associated with the adopting partner and it's effectively the same. A child that gets adopted this way has the same rights and privileges that a biological child of a person that gets remarried has. The partners have the same benefits as a married couple including alimony, pensions and all the other things. They even have to go through the exact same procedure as a regularly married couple has to if they'd like to split.
France: In June 2011, an Ifop poll found that 63% of respondents were in favour of same-sex marriage, while 58% supported adoption rights for same-sex couples.
As for Europe in general Italy is basically the only western country without a pro-LGBT stance.
Acceptance in society? Most 60+ year olds I know treat homosexuality basically like they'd treat someone who just told them they want to make a living as a painter. "If you really want to it's alright. / Are you sure that's what you want to do? / That means I'll never have grandkids?!" is as far as it gets. The vast, vast majority isn't getting kicked out of their homes for being gay, they're not being beaten up, they're not getting cut out of someones will. That's as fucking awesome as it gets for a movement that's not more than 10-15 years old.
2. I dont get what kind of problem you have with "picking one specific issue". like, i am not allowed to be against discriminnation in germany because people in africa are starving or what.
i shouldnt support a local soup kichten because people are getting tortured in north korea.
that doesnt make any sense
The issue is that when you put up a flag at your house that says "I SUPPORT LOCAL SOUP KITCHENS" and people celebrate you for fighting world hunger something is wrong because you're simply not doing that. It's hypocritical for any company to throw out some banners and then have fans proclaim they're doing an awesome job at supporting a cause.
Provide a forum people feel safe in, support people who want to make sure that instead of just having the same rights they're allowed to also call it marriage in a country like Germany. Point fingers at glaringly similar issues with basically zero governmental or public support (once again, polyamory is the same thing with a different background that no one cares about). Those are all awesome things people can support with money and actions. Putting a flag up isn't. It's a really cool baby step but calling it any more than that isn't appropriate.
Once more, I'm completely happy if TL wants to be political in any shape or form, I'm completely happy if TL wants to push for equal rights for everyone in places where those rights aren't supported. I just firmly believe that putting up a banner and calling it a day is a horrible way to go about it. It's completely non-committal and not more or less than a nice gesture.
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United States15275 Posts
On July 27 2014 01:10 r.Evo wrote:
It's completely non-committal and not more or less than a nice gesture.
And...is there a problem with this?
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44 Posts
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I too support the colors of every person just like team liquid.
it shouldnt matter if you are white, pink, purple, green, yellow, another kind of pinkish color, pinkish red, or blue.
i will accept u.
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Netherlands6181 Posts
awwwwww yeah this is awesome.
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On July 27 2014 01:10 r.Evo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 26 2014 22:40 Paljas wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 17:39 r.Evo wrote:On July 26 2014 15:43 Pangpootata wrote:On July 26 2014 14:27 Gen.Rolly wrote:
Like I mentioned in the previous thread, an unnecessary political statement and a slap in the face of those who contribute to the site that do not share the same political views. You don't get it. TL is supporting acceptance of gays, not asking everyone to be gay. If your political views are against being gay, then it's fine for you to not be gay yourself. But you should let other people with different views be gay if they really want to. I don't think that's the point that people are making who are annoyed by things like this. Want to be gay? Awesome. Same sex (non-religious) marriage? Awesome. Equal rights by all means? Awesome. We (as the western world) are already there (well, except for parts of America and Italy...). It's beating a dead horse, it's like asking to free slaves or to stop religious discrimination in the western world while gays in India get burned alive or while polyamory is still a concept that is in no shape or form accepted by any government (hell, I had arguments with gays and lesbians telling me that it should stay forbidden because it's indecent and against their cause). This whole thing has turned from an equal rights movement to one huge party once in a while and it tends to be the most "up in your face" party of any similar kind. There are no Black Pride Parades, Jewish Pride Parades or Feminist Pride Parades that tell you LOOK AT US WE'RE X AND IT'S AWESOME TO BE X; I SAID LOOK AT US AND CELEBRATE US; IF YOU DON'T YOU'RE AN ASSHOLE - simply because those groups understood that celebrating something that should be considered normal makes it more weird instead of more normal. The tip of the iceberg is a site like TL officially endorsing this, putting it above any and all possible things one could endorse. I don't recall a "Let's remember 9/11", "Let's give the horse a Martin Luther King outlook today" or "Let's do something for the First World War Centenary". Hell, the exact same case that made sodomy laws illegal in the US was used to prevent people from marrying multiple people if they so desire. No one cares despite a minority being criminalized for wanting to be happy with their loved ones. I'm all for supporting equal rights, equally. I'm just annoyed with picking one specific issue due to personal reasons and calling it "fighting for equal rights". what are you even talking about. 1. We are NOT already there. first of all, not everyone on teamliquid is from "the western world". but you are right, most users are from the us, aka a country where equal rights do not exist in many states. and equal rights also do not exist in many europe countries. germany does not has same sex marriage and does not have equal legal status of adoption. same for many other countries in europe. also, it isnt only about legal status but also about the acceptance in the society. looking at the huge anti-gay protests in france, its quite hard to justifiy that "we are already there" Oh, please. In Germany a Registered Life Partnership aka "Lebenspartnerschaft" has nowadays effectively the same rights as married couples. Yes a non-married couple (this goes for both same-sex and opposite-sex couples) can't adopt children together. However, one of the partners can adopt a child and the other partner has to give his okay for it. Add in a document that gives the non-adopting partner all the rights associated with the adopting partner and it's effectively the same. A child that gets adopted this way has the same rights and privileges that a biological child of a person that gets remarried has. The partners have the same benefits as a married couple including alimony, pensions and all the other things. They even have to go through the exact same procedure as a regularly married couple has to if they'd like to split. France: In June 2011, an Ifop poll found that 63% of respondents were in favour of same-sex marriage, while 58% supported adoption rights for same-sex couples. As for Europe in general Italy is basically the only western country without a pro-LGBT stance. Acceptance in society? Most 60+ year olds I know treat homosexuality basically like they'd treat someone who just told them they want to make a living as a painter. "If you really want to it's alright. / Are you sure that's what you want to do? / That means I'll never have grandkids?!" is as far as it gets. The vast, vast majority isn't getting kicked out of their homes for being gay, they're not being beaten up, they're not getting cut out of someones will. That's as fucking awesome as it gets for a movement that's not more than 10-15 years old. 2. I dont get what kind of problem you have with "picking one specific issue". like, i am not allowed to be against discriminnation in germany because people in africa are starving or what.
i shouldnt support a local soup kichten because people are getting tortured in north korea.
that doesnt make any sense The issue is that when you put up a flag at your house that says "I SUPPORT LOCAL SOUP KITCHENS" and people celebrate you for fighting world hunger something is wrong because you're simply not doing that. It's hypocritical for any company to throw out some banners and then have fans proclaim they're doing an awesome job at supporting a cause. Provide a forum people feel safe in, support people who want to make sure that instead of just having the same rights they're allowed to also call it marriage in a country like Germany. Point fingers at glaringly similar issues with basically zero governmental or public support (once again, polyamory is the same thing with a different background that no one cares about). Those are all awesome things people can support with money and actions. Putting a flag up isn't. It's a really cool baby step but calling it any more than that isn't appropriate. Once more, I'm completely happy if TL wants to be political in any shape or form, I'm completely happy if TL wants to push for equal rights for everyone in places where those rights aren't supported. I just firmly believe that putting up a banner and calling it a day is a horrible way to go about it. It's completely non-committal and not more or less than a nice gesture.
Those are some interesting points you've made, but the rainbow horse is pretty and therefore your points are invalid
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TLADT24920 Posts
On July 27 2014 00:28 salle wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 23:48 BigFan wrote:
I think what you guys are doing is great and hope you continue in the years to come as well. Are there plans for other kinds of support? Other kind of support for the LGBT(QI?) community or support of other discriminated communities?
well, other discriminated communities. I think there is a lot of them out there. Maybe something for those suffering with mental health since it's quite a major issue and not many are open to talking about it.
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
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I was wondering where this was during world pride. I thought you guys forgot . I am super happy to see it back up
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On July 27 2014 01:10 r.Evo wrote:
Once more, I'm completely happy if TL wants to be political in any shape or form, I'm completely happy if TL wants to push for equal rights for everyone in places where those rights aren't supported. I just firmly believe that putting up a banner and calling it a day is a horrible way to go about it. It's completely non-committal and not more or less than a nice gesture.
I agree that the rainbow horse doesn't have much effect by itself, but just because TL puts up a nice gesture doesn't mean that it doesn't have concrete actions to make LGBT people feel comfortable. For example, TL will ban people who hate on gays or say inappropriate things about Scarlett in the forum.
To make an analogy, if you want to stop animal cruelty, you will put up signs saying stop animal cruelty, as well as take concrete actions to punish offenders. The signs don't have much effect by themselves, but are an important part of the campaign as it raises awareness, as well as reiterates the firm stance of the ruling organisation in eradicating bad behaviour. A campaign with punishments for offenders, but without any signs, will certainly be much less effective.
Similarly, TL's rainbow horse also raises awareness on the discrimination LGBT people still face (which is clearly needed, as evinced by the people in this thread who are myopic enough to only consider select western communities, and somehow think that LGBT rights are no longer a problem.) It also serves as a reminder to the TL denizens that derogatory comments against LGBT people will not be tolerated. This, in conjunction with the warnings and bans that mods hand out, will form a complete campaign to support equal rights in the TL forum.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On July 27 2014 14:44 wozzot wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2014 01:10 r.Evo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 26 2014 22:40 Paljas wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 17:39 r.Evo wrote:On July 26 2014 15:43 Pangpootata wrote:On July 26 2014 14:27 Gen.Rolly wrote:
Like I mentioned in the previous thread, an unnecessary political statement and a slap in the face of those who contribute to the site that do not share the same political views. You don't get it. TL is supporting acceptance of gays, not asking everyone to be gay. If your political views are against being gay, then it's fine for you to not be gay yourself. But you should let other people with different views be gay if they really want to. I don't think that's the point that people are making who are annoyed by things like this. Want to be gay? Awesome. Same sex (non-religious) marriage? Awesome. Equal rights by all means? Awesome. We (as the western world) are already there (well, except for parts of America and Italy...). It's beating a dead horse, it's like asking to free slaves or to stop religious discrimination in the western world while gays in India get burned alive or while polyamory is still a concept that is in no shape or form accepted by any government (hell, I had arguments with gays and lesbians telling me that it should stay forbidden because it's indecent and against their cause). This whole thing has turned from an equal rights movement to one huge party once in a while and it tends to be the most "up in your face" party of any similar kind. There are no Black Pride Parades, Jewish Pride Parades or Feminist Pride Parades that tell you LOOK AT US WE'RE X AND IT'S AWESOME TO BE X; I SAID LOOK AT US AND CELEBRATE US; IF YOU DON'T YOU'RE AN ASSHOLE - simply because those groups understood that celebrating something that should be considered normal makes it more weird instead of more normal. The tip of the iceberg is a site like TL officially endorsing this, putting it above any and all possible things one could endorse. I don't recall a "Let's remember 9/11", "Let's give the horse a Martin Luther King outlook today" or "Let's do something for the First World War Centenary". Hell, the exact same case that made sodomy laws illegal in the US was used to prevent people from marrying multiple people if they so desire. No one cares despite a minority being criminalized for wanting to be happy with their loved ones. I'm all for supporting equal rights, equally. I'm just annoyed with picking one specific issue due to personal reasons and calling it "fighting for equal rights". what are you even talking about. 1. We are NOT already there. first of all, not everyone on teamliquid is from "the western world". but you are right, most users are from the us, aka a country where equal rights do not exist in many states. and equal rights also do not exist in many europe countries. germany does not has same sex marriage and does not have equal legal status of adoption. same for many other countries in europe. also, it isnt only about legal status but also about the acceptance in the society. looking at the huge anti-gay protests in france, its quite hard to justifiy that "we are already there" Oh, please. In Germany a Registered Life Partnership aka "Lebenspartnerschaft" has nowadays effectively the same rights as married couples. Yes a non-married couple (this goes for both same-sex and opposite-sex couples) can't adopt children together. However, one of the partners can adopt a child and the other partner has to give his okay for it. Add in a document that gives the non-adopting partner all the rights associated with the adopting partner and it's effectively the same. A child that gets adopted this way has the same rights and privileges that a biological child of a person that gets remarried has. The partners have the same benefits as a married couple including alimony, pensions and all the other things. They even have to go through the exact same procedure as a regularly married couple has to if they'd like to split. France: In June 2011, an Ifop poll found that 63% of respondents were in favour of same-sex marriage, while 58% supported adoption rights for same-sex couples. As for Europe in general Italy is basically the only western country without a pro-LGBT stance. Acceptance in society? Most 60+ year olds I know treat homosexuality basically like they'd treat someone who just told them they want to make a living as a painter. "If you really want to it's alright. / Are you sure that's what you want to do? / That means I'll never have grandkids?!" is as far as it gets. The vast, vast majority isn't getting kicked out of their homes for being gay, they're not being beaten up, they're not getting cut out of someones will. That's as fucking awesome as it gets for a movement that's not more than 10-15 years old. 2. I dont get what kind of problem you have with "picking one specific issue". like, i am not allowed to be against discriminnation in germany because people in africa are starving or what.
i shouldnt support a local soup kichten because people are getting tortured in north korea.
that doesnt make any sense The issue is that when you put up a flag at your house that says "I SUPPORT LOCAL SOUP KITCHENS" and people celebrate you for fighting world hunger something is wrong because you're simply not doing that. It's hypocritical for any company to throw out some banners and then have fans proclaim they're doing an awesome job at supporting a cause. Provide a forum people feel safe in, support people who want to make sure that instead of just having the same rights they're allowed to also call it marriage in a country like Germany. Point fingers at glaringly similar issues with basically zero governmental or public support (once again, polyamory is the same thing with a different background that no one cares about). Those are all awesome things people can support with money and actions. Putting a flag up isn't. It's a really cool baby step but calling it any more than that isn't appropriate. Once more, I'm completely happy if TL wants to be political in any shape or form, I'm completely happy if TL wants to push for equal rights for everyone in places where those rights aren't supported. I just firmly believe that putting up a banner and calling it a day is a horrible way to go about it. It's completely non-committal and not more or less than a nice gesture. Those are some interesting points you've made, but the rainbow horse is pretty and therefore your points are invalid
Hahaha yes.
Even more importantly, when can I get my rainbow TL hoodie?
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On July 28 2014 14:01 Pangpootata wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2014 01:10 r.Evo wrote:
Once more, I'm completely happy if TL wants to be political in any shape or form, I'm completely happy if TL wants to push for equal rights for everyone in places where those rights aren't supported. I just firmly believe that putting up a banner and calling it a day is a horrible way to go about it. It's completely non-committal and not more or less than a nice gesture. I agree that the rainbow horse doesn't have much effect by itself, but just because TL puts up a nice gesture doesn't mean that it doesn't have concrete actions to make LGBT people feel comfortable. For example, TL will ban people who hate on gays or say inappropriate things about Scarlett in the forum. To make an analogy, if you want to stop animal cruelty, you will put up signs saying stop animal cruelty, as well as take concrete actions to punish offenders. The signs don't have much effect by themselves, but are an important part of the campaign as it raises awareness, as well as reiterates the firm stance of the ruling organisation in eradicating bad behaviour. A campaign with punishments for offenders, but without any signs, will certainly be much less effective. Similarly, TL's rainbow horse also raises awareness on the discrimination LGBT people still face (which is clearly needed, as evinced by the people in this thread who are myopic enough to only consider select western communities, and somehow think that LGBT rights are no longer a problem.) It also serves as a reminder to the TL denizens that derogatory comments against LGBT people will not be tolerated. This, in conjunction with the warnings and bans that mods hand out, will form a complete campaign to support equal rights in the TL forum.
Wait.. Why would Scarlett be targeted for people to say stuff? and how is that relevant to this discussion?
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I saw the banner and thought that there was some revolutionary gay news that happened over the weekend.
Regardless, I'm happy to see TeamLiquid be so supportive and initiate support for equality. Thank you so much, Team Liquid!
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On July 28 2014 23:38 Butterednuts wrote:
I saw the banner and thought that there was some revolutionary gay news that happened over the weekend.
Regardless, I'm happy to see TeamLiquid be so supportive and initiate support for equality. Thank you so much, Team Liquid!
What would qualify as revolutionary gay news? Lmao sorry its a funny thing to say, headlines suddenly "scientists find way for same-sex couples to have their own children!"
And as others have mentioned, good for you TL.
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
On July 29 2014 00:46 Capped wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2014 23:38 Butterednuts wrote:
I saw the banner and thought that there was some revolutionary gay news that happened over the weekend.
Regardless, I'm happy to see TeamLiquid be so supportive and initiate support for equality. Thank you so much, Team Liquid! What would qualify as revolutionary gay news? Lmao sorry its a funny thing to say, headlines suddenly "scientists find way for same-sex couples to have their own children!" And as others have mentioned, good for you TL.
Well I can think of a whole bunch of interesting breakthroughs that could happen as far as the T in LGBT goes 
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On July 26 2014 14:27 Gen.Rolly wrote:
Like I mentioned in the previous thread, an unnecessary political statement and a slap in the face of those who contribute to the site that do not share the same political views.
And as always with political stuff: if you don't enjoy it, ignore it (or start a wild discussion with TL staff about how this site is being led in a monarchic kind of way that you think sucks. #irony).
I actually thing that gay pride parades are as stupid as hetero pride parades would be. Sadly, we live in a time where there are still people around that do not use their brain to its full extent. In a truely equal world, gay pride would be as unnecessary as, well, wars or cancer. Being gay is not a thing to be proud of, it's simply normal.
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Much love to all members on this site, y'all are my friends and an online family of sorts to me.
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On July 28 2014 22:48 LeeJohnDong wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2014 14:01 Pangpootata wrote:On July 27 2014 01:10 r.Evo wrote:
Once more, I'm completely happy if TL wants to be political in any shape or form, I'm completely happy if TL wants to push for equal rights for everyone in places where those rights aren't supported. I just firmly believe that putting up a banner and calling it a day is a horrible way to go about it. It's completely non-committal and not more or less than a nice gesture. I agree that the rainbow horse doesn't have much effect by itself, but just because TL puts up a nice gesture doesn't mean that it doesn't have concrete actions to make LGBT people feel comfortable. For example, TL will ban people who hate on gays or say inappropriate things about Scarlett in the forum. To make an analogy, if you want to stop animal cruelty, you will put up signs saying stop animal cruelty, as well as take concrete actions to punish offenders. The signs don't have much effect by themselves, but are an important part of the campaign as it raises awareness, as well as reiterates the firm stance of the ruling organisation in eradicating bad behaviour. A campaign with punishments for offenders, but without any signs, will certainly be much less effective. Similarly, TL's rainbow horse also raises awareness on the discrimination LGBT people still face (which is clearly needed, as evinced by the people in this thread who are myopic enough to only consider select western communities, and somehow think that LGBT rights are no longer a problem.) It also serves as a reminder to the TL denizens that derogatory comments against LGBT people will not be tolerated. This, in conjunction with the warnings and bans that mods hand out, will form a complete campaign to support equal rights in the TL forum. Wait.. Why would Scarlett be targeted for people to say stuff? and how is that relevant to this discussion?
Because she's transgender, which is what the "T" in LGBT stands for.
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gotta say pridehunter looks great on liquiddota
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On July 28 2014 22:48 LeeJohnDong wrote:
Wait.. Why would Scarlett be targeted for people to say stuff? and how is that relevant to this discussion?
Son we may need to sit down and talk...
( In all seriousness, happy to see rainbow horse flying high and proud. )
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Well done TL! Thanks for showing support for the community.
To the people who say, "We yada yada yada, get yada yada out of esports." Go back to complaining about how awareness of disease is detrimental to society and how educating people about sex leads to more abortions.
Again! Thank you TL! Means a lot to us! Being accepted by a group of people who I know I can talk to when things get rough matters to me.
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You could arguably say that "equal rights" in the context of supporting LGBT means "supporting equal rights for LGBT people", rather than "equal rights for everyone in general, but we'll narrowly only consider LGBT due to personal preference".
I actually haven't been to an LGBT parade, I don't know if they're in your face about it. But really, even if they do have rallies that most other minority groups don't have, and maybe if they are more "loud and proud" than seems necessary, its not really a big deal. It should be remarked on as an oddity, like an intense group of people declaring their joy for flying model airplanes.
Just in the context of helping a specific group of people this is a nice effort. It feels so much better to know that a forum you frequent supports these things, I guess it just feels more personal and real than any other rally on the street, because I don't really know those people so well.
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United States23455 Posts
On July 29 2014 03:03 boxerfred wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 14:27 Gen.Rolly wrote:
Like I mentioned in the previous thread, an unnecessary political statement and a slap in the face of those who contribute to the site that do not share the same political views. And as always with political stuff: if you don't enjoy it, ignore it (or start a wild discussion with TL staff about how this site is being led in a monarchic kind of way that you think sucks. #irony). I actually thing that gay pride parades are as stupid as hetero pride parades would be. Sadly, we live in a time where there are still people around that do not use their brain to its full extent. In a truely equal world, gay pride would be as unnecessary as, well, wars or cancer. Being gay is not a thing to be proud of, it's simply normal.
Sigh there are always these statements such as "black pride is the same as white pride and gay pride is the same as hetero pride".
Here's the thing: gays/minorities have been made to feel in the past like less than a person, and gay pride parades do a number of things. 1) they celebrate the fact that the world is (slowly) becoming more tolerant 2) allow gay people who have perhaps been condemned for what they are to meet with and be accepted by like minded individuals and 3) they help people who live in parts of the world where they still are scared to come out (all over) see that you can in fact be proud of who you are. Hetero pride isn't the same thing because heterosexual people don't have the same struggles as LBGT people do
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I'm glad TL supports the LGBT community (i myself used to be a monthly donor to HRC) but I'm also incredibly frustrated that this has to even be an issue which is discussed. I can't imagine a less important topic than men/women that are sexually attracted to the same sex. It shouldn't even be a 'thing', who the hell cares?! It's incredibly sad we're distracted by these pointless issues when we (as a collective society USA or otherwise) could focus on more important issues.
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United States23455 Posts
On July 29 2014 09:50 crms wrote:
I'm glad TL supports the LGBT community (i myself used to be a monthly donor to HRC) but I'm also incredibly frustrated that this has to even be an issue which is discussed. I can't imagine a less important topic than men/women that are sexually attracted to the same sex. It shouldn't even be a 'thing', who the hell cares?! It's incredibly sad we're distracted by these pointless issues when we (as a collective society USA or otherwise) could focus on more important issues.
It would be nice if everyone treated it like a non issue, but a lot of people don't. There are places in the world where it is a criminal offense to be gay, so I feel it actually is an important issue to talk about.
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Pride hunter is lovely indeed!
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On July 29 2014 09:40 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 03:03 boxerfred wrote:On July 26 2014 14:27 Gen.Rolly wrote:
Like I mentioned in the previous thread, an unnecessary political statement and a slap in the face of those who contribute to the site that do not share the same political views. And as always with political stuff: if you don't enjoy it, ignore it (or start a wild discussion with TL staff about how this site is being led in a monarchic kind of way that you think sucks. #irony). I actually thing that gay pride parades are as stupid as hetero pride parades would be. Sadly, we live in a time where there are still people around that do not use their brain to its full extent. In a truely equal world, gay pride would be as unnecessary as, well, wars or cancer. Being gay is not a thing to be proud of, it's simply normal. Sigh there are always these statements such as "black pride is the same as white pride and gay pride is the same as hetero pride". Here's the thing: gays/minorities have been made to feel in the past like less than a person, and gay pride parades do a number of things. 1) they celebrate the fact that the world is (slowly) becoming more tolerant 2) allow gay people who have perhaps been condemned for what they are to meet with and be accepted by like minded individuals and 3) they help people who live in parts of the world where they still are scared to come out (all over) see that you can in fact be proud of who you are. Hetero pride isn't the same thing because heterosexual people don't have the same struggles as LBGT people do
You're right! As long as you have to fight for it, you can be proud of it. I just wanted to express the thought that in a perfect world, pride parades would not be necessary in any way. Personally, I think that sexual preferences are something very private and intimate, and do not belong to demonstrations in the public. That's just me, though.
You're saying "Hetero pride isn't the same thing because heterosexual people don't have the same struggles as LBGT people do" - in a perfect world, those struggles wouldn't exist. But I love all those groups for putting up the fight for their rights, and it's a great thing of TL to show its support via the banner.
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To r.EVO:
I think it is a bit narrow minded to take the view that the lgbt issue is now passe. For most tl users, their country (the us) is just beginning to recognise lgbt rights. For yet more users such as myself, consensual sex between adult gay men is still a crime which you can get imprisoned for. Or even killed in some African states. While it is great that the European union has largely lead the way on this, please don't forget that people still struggle with this else where.
In fact nerds and geeks have until recently been a somewhat uncool status and it was on sites like teamliquid where we were able to share our interests without the rest of society judging our hobby. So i think it's wonderful that teamliquid is doing what it is doing to show support and solidarity with others who are also being judged or discriminated against.
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On July 29 2014 15:45 levelping wrote:
To r.EVO:
I think it is a bit narrow minded to take the view that the lgbt issue is now passe. For most tl users, their country (the us) is just beginning to recognise lgbt rights. For yet more users such as myself, consensual sex between adult gay men is still a crime which you can get imprisoned for. Or even killed in some African states. While it is great that the European union has largely lead the way on this, please don't forget that people still struggle with this else where.
In fact nerds and geeks have until recently been a somewhat uncool status and it was on sites like teamliquid where we were able to share our interests without the rest of society judging our hobby. So i think it's wonderful that teamliquid is doing what it is doing to show support and solidarity with others who are also being judged or discriminated against.
Maybe I'm being pessimistic but I don't believe a change of the TL logo or a gay pride parade in the middle of Amsterdam helps gays in Singapore in any shape or form (maybe in the US or Italy, I'll give you that). Apart from that it's preaching to the choir (since, as can be clearly seen from these threads, the amount of "anti-LGBT" people is pretty much non-existent on this site due to awesome moderation) and, to me, incredibly hypocritical to celebrate it as more.
As someone said earlier, there is nothing wrong with just a nice non-committal gesture. But holy hell, pretending it's any more than that is just delusional.
Same deal with Pride Parades. Personally, despite being into things that aren't exactly mainstream or "vanilla", I don't go out on the streets to celebrate it either. Why? Because sexuality is something inherently personal. It's your business and the business of people you have relationships with (as many as you'd like to for all that I care). To me such a parade is equivalent to me beating my girlfriend through the streets and being confused if people are offended by that or intervene and/or call me fucking retarded for doing such a scene in public which is exactly what it would be.
Doing such a thing would make the general public (which in the end determines what's legal and what not) most likely think worse of me despite me just "celebrating my sexuality in public". Wouldn't I be stupid to do such a thing? If there was a country where beating your significant other is illegal no matter the context (I'm sure there has to be one) I'd like them to reconsider their stance by seeing "Hey, those guys aren't any different from us, they just do different things in the bedroom" instead of giving them more arguments on why their stance is awesome and how morally indecent the thing is they're forbidding ("LOOK AT THOSE GUYS IN THE STREETS HOLY SHIT THEY'RE ANIMALS!!!").
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
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On July 29 2014 16:18 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 15:45 levelping wrote:
To r.EVO:
I think it is a bit narrow minded to take the view that the lgbt issue is now passe. For most tl users, their country (the us) is just beginning to recognise lgbt rights. For yet more users such as myself, consensual sex between adult gay men is still a crime which you can get imprisoned for. Or even killed in some African states. While it is great that the European union has largely lead the way on this, please don't forget that people still struggle with this else where.
In fact nerds and geeks have until recently been a somewhat uncool status and it was on sites like teamliquid where we were able to share our interests without the rest of society judging our hobby. So i think it's wonderful that teamliquid is doing what it is doing to show support and solidarity with others who are also being judged or discriminated against. Maybe I'm being pessimistic but I don't believe a change of the TL logo or a gay pride parade in the middle of Amsterdam helps gays in Singapore in any shape or form (maybe in the US or Italy, I'll give you that). Apart from that it's preaching to the choir (since, as can be clearly seen from these threads, the amount of "anti-LGBT" people is pretty much non-existent on this site due to awesome moderation) and, to me, incredibly hypocritical to celebrate it as more. As someone said earlier, there is nothing wrong with just a nice non-committal gesture. But holy hell, pretending it's any more than that is just delusional. Same deal with Pride Parades. Personally, despite being into things that aren't exactly mainstream or "vanilla", I don't go out on the streets to celebrate it either. Why? Because sexuality is something inherently personal. It's your business and the business of people you have relationships with (as many as you'd like to for all that I care). To me such a parade is equivalent to me beating my girlfriend through the streets and being confused if people are offended by that or intervene and/or call me fucking retarded for doing such a scene in public which is exactly what it would be. Doing such a thing would make the general public (which in the end determines what's legal and what not) most likely think worse of me despite me just "celebrating my sexuality in public". Wouldn't I be stupid to do such a thing? If there was a country where beating your significant other is illegal no matter the context (I'm sure there has to be one) I'd like them to reconsider their stance by seeing "Hey, those guys aren't any different from us, they just do different things in the bedroom" instead of giving them more arguments on why their stance is awesome and how morally indecent the thing is they're forbidding ("LOOK AT THOSE GUYS IN THE STREETS HOLY SHIT THEY'RE ANIMALS!!!").
I kinda think you need to take a step back and calm down because you're projecting a number of things onto the rainbow horse which isn't in issue. As the op states this is just a small gesture to extend support and goodwill. No one suggests it's about to change the world, or the laws of Singapore. Further I think I am in a better position to say whether this helps gays in Singapore since I'm actually in this country, and I would appreciate if you didn't jump to conclusions on my behalf. When you are in a country where being gay is illegal and religious leaders routinely suggest that gays and lesbians are out to convert children into an immoral lifestyle, it is a small bit meaningful experience to come to your favourite gaming website to see that hey at least someone cares, even from the other side of the globe.
Also you're a reasonable poster, so I hope you can see that consensual intercourse between adults is different from and should not be compared to beating your girlfriend. Unless of course you're referring to it in some sort of bdsm context, in which case you are at full liberty to do so and as far as I know no one will stop you and her so long as it is consensual. So the comparison is still flawed since your sexual lifestyle as a straight man is something you are at full liberty to pursue, and is something that receives far more social and cultural acceptance than gay couplings.
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Norway28665 Posts
r.evo it's like, I don't know what you're trying to argue here, or why you're trying, if you're just so urban-north-western europe-centric that gay rights seems like something we've fought for and won, or what the deal is. Because it's like, we on the teamliquid staff know that teamliquid is a webpage dedicated to computer games, and that we don't actually dictate global policy. We understand that countries where homosexuality is illegal will not suddenly make it legal because we changed our logo. Still though, I think it's nice to show our support, even knowing that it will not immediately convince any policy makers of anything. Furthermore, it seems like you are somehow very positive towards homosexuality and homosexuals, but you don't support us voicing our support of homosexuality and homosexuals' ability to freely showcase their sexuality because there are still other sexual or other minorities that need our support more?
I mean, firstly, I actually literally think that homosexuals are the minority most repressed on a global scale. In western europe, I can accept that being a muslim immigrant is probably tougher, but either way, that's irrelevant. Because what you're arguing is essentially that you should ignore whatever isn't the most pressing issue in the world. And only one thing can actually be the most pressing issue in the world. In reality, way more than one thing is messed up about this beautiful planet we inhabit and well, there's also a lot of people and a lot of different communities out there.
Secondly, have you ever played computer games on the internet before and have you been to other communities formed by and inhabited by males in their late teens or twenties? Most of these communities, hell, most places inhabited by male teenagers, suffer from the word "gay" being thrown around ubiquitously as some generic negative word. Faggot is certainly among the most used direct insults. Even though it might not be that big a deal to you, I don't know how linguistically conscious you are, I've talked to several homosexuals who find this hurtful, and I live in a Norwegian city - as open of a region as you could possibly find. Our community comparably being relatively free from insults deriving from sexual orientation is a consequence of our active stance in this issue. These logo changes reflect that and are very much in line with the broader site philosophy.
Thirdly, pride rallies. I'm actually shocked that you tried to make an analogy equating homosexuality to beating your girlfriend, but I'll chalk that up to "linguistic unconsciousness" because I don't actually think you think that homosexuality is anything like that. Maybe what you meant to do was equate it to some type of SM-fetish thing where your girlfriend was actually very happy and even sexually aroused through being slapped around the city, but you didn't say that and I need to base my reply around what you wrote rather than what you possibly could have meant to say that would make it less stupid. And it would be pretty stupid anyway. Either way though, there are multiple reasons why pride rallies are important.
Like you said, sexuality is personal. So is opening up about being gay. For many homosexuals, "leaving the closet" is about the biggest decision they ever make. It's such a difficult thing that there are still many who don't do it. It almost seems like most homosexuals try out heterosexuality because they really really want to be normal, accepted and not having to worry about people finding out who they "really" are. Pride rallies are one great, great avenue for homosexuals who have not yet had the guts to openly tell society about who they are: Firstly, they can see that other people who are homosexuals are actually parading through the streets without being beaten up and hated. Strength in numbers and all that. Secondly, it's actually possible to participate anonymously in those - which again can be really helpful for teenagers who are on the verge of accepting their "new identity". Thirdly, while you seem to think that western european societies are completely accepting of homosexuals and homosexuality, pride rallies deserve some credit for this development through normalizing behavior we previously found shocking. Two men holding hands while walking down the street - which in Trondheim would have been a fairly shocking sight 20 years ago - and something countless homosexuals have been beaten up over - just doesn't hold the same shock value when you just last week watched twenty leather-clad ultra-flamboyant homosexuals partying through the streets on some crazy gay party bus.
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Is Mora still around? I'm sure he'd love the reason behind the banner :p
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lol pfff, that's gonna help -_-
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On July 26 2014 14:27 Gen.Rolly wrote:
Like I mentioned in the previous thread, an unnecessary political statement and a slap in the face of those who contribute to the site that do not share the same political views.
Life is hard, get helmet. Sometimes you have to see things you don't like. Like I had to see this post and I'm totally gunna make it.
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On July 26 2014 08:35 Liquid`Drone wrote:putting this on to celebrate + Show Spoiler +
hahahahahahahahaha
On July 26 2014 14:27 Gen.Rolly wrote:
Like I mentioned in the previous thread, an unnecessary political statement and a slap in the face of those who contribute to the site that do not share the same political views.
haahahahahahahahahah
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Good job TL. And I'm actually shocked that there are still people who argue and rant, instead of simply appreciating the message. Just because you choose to support one cause doesnt mean you ignore the rest. If TL had something on the site for every cause, there wouldn't be any room for content. Right now, the global issue of rights for LGBT is a big thing, and something worth getting behind. All you people lipping off need to just accept that this is the cause chosen by TL in support of its members.
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On July 29 2014 23:33 Ayaz2810 wrote:
Good job TL. And I'm actually shocked that there are still people who argue and rant, instead of simply appreciating the message. Just because you choose to support one cause doesnt mean you ignore the rest. If TL had something on the site for every cause, there wouldn't be any room for content. Right now, the global issue of rights for LGBT is a big thing, and something worth getting behind. All you people lipping off need to just accept that this is the cause chosen by TL in support of its members.
Online activism is laughable at best and sad at worst. By looking at a shiny banner you change pretty much nothing. If anybody cared enough, they'd be protesting in the streets.
Also, this is a "big thing", according to whom? A few internet people? I'm sure those people are vastly outnumbered by people who live in real poverty.
I blocked the whole banner, I don't want politics on TL, sorry.
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On July 29 2014 23:56 zdfgucker wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 23:33 Ayaz2810 wrote:
Good job TL. And I'm actually shocked that there are still people who argue and rant, instead of simply appreciating the message. Just because you choose to support one cause doesnt mean you ignore the rest. If TL had something on the site for every cause, there wouldn't be any room for content. Right now, the global issue of rights for LGBT is a big thing, and something worth getting behind. All you people lipping off need to just accept that this is the cause chosen by TL in support of its members. Online activism is laughable at best and sad at worst. By looking at a shiny banner you change pretty much nothing. If anybody cared enough, they'd be protesting in the streets. Also, this is a "big thing", according to whom? A few internet people? I'm sure those people are vastly outnumbered by people who live in real poverty. I blocked the whole banner, I don't want politics on TL, sorry.
Yet you clicked on this thread and felt the need to comment. Its almost like you do want them on TL, but only if you agree with them.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On July 30 2014 00:05 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 23:56 zdfgucker wrote:On July 29 2014 23:33 Ayaz2810 wrote:
Good job TL. And I'm actually shocked that there are still people who argue and rant, instead of simply appreciating the message. Just because you choose to support one cause doesnt mean you ignore the rest. If TL had something on the site for every cause, there wouldn't be any room for content. Right now, the global issue of rights for LGBT is a big thing, and something worth getting behind. All you people lipping off need to just accept that this is the cause chosen by TL in support of its members. Online activism is laughable at best and sad at worst. By looking at a shiny banner you change pretty much nothing. If anybody cared enough, they'd be protesting in the streets. Also, this is a "big thing", according to whom? A few internet people? I'm sure those people are vastly outnumbered by people who live in real poverty. I blocked the whole banner, I don't want politics on TL, sorry. Yet you clicked on this thread and felt the need to comment. Its almost like you do want them on TL, but only if you agree with them.
Shitting on a gesture of equality and support is totes where it's at, though.
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On July 30 2014 00:09 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 00:05 Plansix wrote:On July 29 2014 23:56 zdfgucker wrote:On July 29 2014 23:33 Ayaz2810 wrote:
Good job TL. And I'm actually shocked that there are still people who argue and rant, instead of simply appreciating the message. Just because you choose to support one cause doesnt mean you ignore the rest. If TL had something on the site for every cause, there wouldn't be any room for content. Right now, the global issue of rights for LGBT is a big thing, and something worth getting behind. All you people lipping off need to just accept that this is the cause chosen by TL in support of its members. Online activism is laughable at best and sad at worst. By looking at a shiny banner you change pretty much nothing. If anybody cared enough, they'd be protesting in the streets. Also, this is a "big thing", according to whom? A few internet people? I'm sure those people are vastly outnumbered by people who live in real poverty. I blocked the whole banner, I don't want politics on TL, sorry. Yet you clicked on this thread and felt the need to comment. Its almost like you do want them on TL, but only if you agree with them. Shitting on a gesture of equality and support is totes where it's at, though.
I don’t like getting involved with politics or issues about equality, to the point where I don’t want any community to I am involved with to become involved ever. Even if its passively, I still don’t want to see it because that’s who I am and what I want is most important.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On July 30 2014 00:15 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 00:09 marvellosity wrote:On July 30 2014 00:05 Plansix wrote:On July 29 2014 23:56 zdfgucker wrote:On July 29 2014 23:33 Ayaz2810 wrote:
Good job TL. And I'm actually shocked that there are still people who argue and rant, instead of simply appreciating the message. Just because you choose to support one cause doesnt mean you ignore the rest. If TL had something on the site for every cause, there wouldn't be any room for content. Right now, the global issue of rights for LGBT is a big thing, and something worth getting behind. All you people lipping off need to just accept that this is the cause chosen by TL in support of its members. Online activism is laughable at best and sad at worst. By looking at a shiny banner you change pretty much nothing. If anybody cared enough, they'd be protesting in the streets. Also, this is a "big thing", according to whom? A few internet people? I'm sure those people are vastly outnumbered by people who live in real poverty. I blocked the whole banner, I don't want politics on TL, sorry. Yet you clicked on this thread and felt the need to comment. Its almost like you do want them on TL, but only if you agree with them. Shitting on a gesture of equality and support is totes where it's at, though. I don’t like getting involved with politics or issues about equality, to the point where I don’t want any community to I am involved with to become involved ever. Even if its passively, I still don’t want to see it because that’s who I am and what I want is most important.
Careful, reading between the lines is a dying skill.
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On July 29 2014 23:56 zdfgucker wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 23:33 Ayaz2810 wrote:
Good job TL. And I'm actually shocked that there are still people who argue and rant, instead of simply appreciating the message. Just because you choose to support one cause doesnt mean you ignore the rest. If TL had something on the site for every cause, there wouldn't be any room for content. Right now, the global issue of rights for LGBT is a big thing, and something worth getting behind. All you people lipping off need to just accept that this is the cause chosen by TL in support of its members. Online activism is laughable at best and sad at worst. By looking at a shiny banner you change pretty much nothing. If anybody cared enough, they'd be protesting in the streets. Also, this is a "big thing", according to whom? A few internet people? I'm sure those people are vastly outnumbered by people who live in real poverty. I blocked the whole banner, I don't want politics on TL, sorry.
maybe it's just a little tough for you to understand, but the banner simply means that tl is supposed to be a friendly space for lbgt people. ie. you waltz into a thread about scarlett and say something stupid, you get disciplined. that's important. no one is saying that the banner is going to have any impact beyond that but ok lol
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On July 29 2014 21:32 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Thirdly, pride rallies. I'm actually shocked that you tried to make an analogy equating homosexuality to beating your girlfriend, but I'll chalk that up to "linguistic unconsciousness" because I don't actually think you think that homosexuality is anything like that. Maybe what you meant to do was equate it to some type of SM-fetish thing where your girlfriend was actually very happy and even sexually aroused through being slapped around the city, but you didn't say that and I need to base my reply around what you wrote rather than what you possibly could have meant to say that would make it less stupid. And it would be pretty stupid anyway. Either way though, there are multiple reasons why pride rallies are important.
Why do I have to attach "...which we both consensually agree to and enjoy"? That is exactly what I meant by there being other minorities that are way less accepted in our western societies than gays and lesbians, I'll give you both that you added a possible distinction but that's a clear cut example from two people I consider way ahead of the general population when it comes to such a topic. If I said "Where we would have sex in the streets" you wouldn't assume that it's rape, if I said "having sex with my boyfriend in the streets" you wouldn't assume it either. Beating someone isn't any less wrong than putting your penis in another man's ass. Both are illegal without consent, both are legal with consent.
Besides that, why is it a stupid comparison anyway? I actually think the way the LGBT "scene" handles their things could learn a lot from the kink scene. Overall the way things get handled there is a lot less, well, flamboyant and therefor much less of a deal to the general public.
Because it's like, we on the teamliquid staff know that teamliquid is a webpage dedicated to computer games, and that we don't actually dictate global policy. We understand that countries where homosexuality is illegal will not suddenly make it legal because we changed our logo. Still though, I think it's nice to show our support, even knowing that it will not immediately convince any policy makers of anything. Furthermore, it seems like you are somehow very positive towards homosexuality and homosexuals, but you don't support us voicing our support of homosexuality and homosexuals' ability to freely showcase their sexuality because there are still other sexual or other minorities that need our support more?
A place like TL has many ways to directly influence opinion via the things it does best: Providing great content and information. An interview with Scarlett with questions that maybe go under the hood for your average interview. Gay staff blogging about their trips with their loved ones with pictures and stuff. Hell, TL staff blogging about the fun they had at the Amsterdam Pride Week with pictures and then link it through the Rainbow logo. An article about gay starcraft player x in place y where he actually is struggling because of public opinion and/or laws. Do all of the above and link the logo to the entire series, make an entire event out of it for a week or two to show support with words and actions! TL already has one of the most awesome moderation policies (aka zero tolerance) when it comes to these topics, the next logical step isn't to post a banner like a 16 year old kid that just discovered it's cool to be pro-LGBT on Facebook. The next step is to set an example with the way a community treats LGBT-members (hint: normal) and do cool shit that with it that your userbase might enjoy.
Secondly, have you ever played computer games on the internet before and have you been to other communities formed by and inhabited by males in their late teens or twenties? Most of these communities, hell, most places inhabited by male teenagers, suffer from the word "gay" being thrown around ubiquitously as some generic negative word. Faggot is certainly among the most used direct insults. Even though it might not be that big a deal to you, I don't know how linguistically conscious you are, I've talked to several homosexuals who find this hurtful, and I live in a Norwegian city - as open of a region as you could possibly find. Our community comparably being relatively free from insults deriving from sexual orientation is a consequence of our active stance in this issue. These logo changes reflect that and are very much in line with the broader site philosophy.
Drone, I'm registered here since 4 years less than you, of course I have. =P - I just don't consider it as big of an issue as you do.
When it comes to insults like these I have the same stance as with similars (e.g. "Nigger") which isn't what TL shares as a general idea. Since I can completely accept that idea I'm not using any of that stuff here but I do believe it's by no means the most effective stance for daily life. I am confident that it is inherently impossible to influence another persons behavior by trying to force them to something. Neither I, nor you nor anyone else on this planet can prevent people from using any word as an insult that is intended to hurt. Following this I believe it's a horrible idea to try and shame those words until no one uses them anymore (which won't happen) and instead encourage people to use them lightheartedly, jokingly and take them back that way.
It's obviously way easier with audio and visual clues than via text, but there are hundreds of ways to use insults in positive ways which slowly but surely take their power as insults away. It's a lot easier to be proud of things that describe what you are than trying to eradicate it's usage.
To get back on topic: What you call "active stance" is million, million times more awesome than a random banner change once in a while that somehow gets celebrated as if it's core of what makes TL awesome about it. TL as a site already shows its stance to its users with action. TL could show its more dedicated stance with even more action (e.g. see above). The last thing this world needs is people putting up flags and other people celebrating that there's now a flag (hence the Facebook comparison).
Like you said, sexuality is personal. So is opening up about being gay. For many homosexuals, "leaving the closet" is about the biggest decision they ever make. It's such a difficult thing that there are still many who don't do it. It almost seems like most homosexuals try out heterosexuality because they really really want to be normal, accepted and not having to worry about people finding out who they "really" are. Pride rallies are one great, great avenue for homosexuals who have not yet had the guts to openly tell society about who they are: Firstly, they can see that other people who are homosexuals are actually parading through the streets without being beaten up and hated. Strength in numbers and all that. Secondly, it's actually possible to participate anonymously in those - which again can be really helpful for teenagers who are on the verge of accepting their "new identity". Thirdly, while you seem to think that western european societies are completely accepting of homosexuals and homosexuality, pride rallies deserve some credit for this development through normalizing behavior we previously found shocking. Two men holding hands while walking down the street - which in Trondheim would have been a fairly shocking sight 20 years ago - and something countless homosexuals have been beaten up over - just doesn't hold the same shock value when you just last week watched twenty leather-clad ultra-flamboyant homosexuals partying through the streets on some crazy gay party bus.
This might be me being too open or me being too uninformed so maybe you can help me out. Why is the closet a big deal in the first place? As an example, as long as I can remember being sexually active I was into non-vanilla stuff. Obviously when you're young that scares you and obviously when you're young you don't talk to many people (or anyone) about it for that matter because you're not sure how they'll react. However you'll end up at 18+, you end up moving out and then you just go visit certain parties and meet certain not-so-vanilla people and learn that it's nothing evil and start to enjoy your actual desires. But I don't recall ever feeling the need for "a talk" with family or friends. "Yo btw I'm really into consensual rape and so is my gf here" isn't exactly anyone's concern. However, if the topic comes up among friends and/or someone saw something that made them ask there is also no huge deal in sitting down with them and explaining things.
What is so different about gays that a young dude can't just live his own life, satisfy his curiosity at various parties, find a cool guy and... just start a relationship with him? Why is there a need to tell friends and family in one huge coming out: "HEY EVERYONE I NEED TO TELL YOU WHAT I'M INTO"? (I'm strictly speaking about e.g. Germany/Netherlands/Scandinavia here.). Why do young gays pressure themselves to do that? What are people actually afraid of? And don't tell me it's being beaten up in the middle of daylight or being fired by their boss if he finds out. Sure, I do know some cases where people don't talk to certain family members anymore, sure I know people who lost a couple of friends over it but that's a normal thing in life and imho just part of growing up in the first place.
Basically the only point I can truly understand is that those rallies must be awesome for people still living at home and being afraid of repercussions from their parents. But even in that case (sorry for drawing a comparison to kink again) why aren't there meetings for young gays to just chill and talk? If I was a young kinkster I could google for a minute and then walk 10 minutes to find what is basically a support/curiosity group between 14-21 (or 14-27) right here in my city (half a million population).
/rant, maybe that makes my position a bit more clear. tl;dr: I consider TL to be better than a rainbow banner for some special occasion. I also consider the average TL user to be better than celebrating the special rainbow banner as more than a special rainbow banner. Those expectations are clashing with what I'm seeing done with the banner and what I'm seeing from other users in this thread. Hence me being vocal about it.
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You're overthinking it and asking for too much.
Personally, if you ask me to show some small token of support, I would say yes. If you ask me to take a busy day off work and march in the streets, I would say no. I feel you're making way too many demands of somebody else's time and effort.
They only wanted to make a small gesture of support. You're pretty much demanding that they either go all out or not bother at all.
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On July 29 2014 09:59 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 09:50 crms wrote:
I'm glad TL supports the LGBT community (i myself used to be a monthly donor to HRC) but I'm also incredibly frustrated that this has to even be an issue which is discussed. I can't imagine a less important topic than men/women that are sexually attracted to the same sex. It shouldn't even be a 'thing', who the hell cares?! It's incredibly sad we're distracted by these pointless issues when we (as a collective society USA or otherwise) could focus on more important issues. It would be nice if everyone treated it like a non issue, but a lot of people don't. There are places in the world where it is a criminal offense to be gay, so I feel it actually is an important issue to talk about.
Right, I'm in support of it being talked about, I'm just sad that it must be.
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At r.evo
Also I think your adherence to the comparison with kink really misses the point man. Yes being gay has a sexual content but it's much more than just the sex. There's marriage, adoption, being accepted by family and so on. While many aspects of kink can be very holistic, I don't think it approaches the pervasiveness of sexual orientation. More on point I fail to see how your consensual rape parade is at all comparable to a gay pride event, because you can set consensual rape aside and get married and adopt kids and so on, but being gay is central to many people self identity and it's not something that they just perform in the bedroom. So the idea that they should keep it private just as you keep your consensual rape fetish private is really off the mark since your comparing a small aspect of your life with the entire self identity of other people.
Also please don't get angsty when we aren't sure if your saying that you beat your gf with her consent. Your post was really ambiguous. Just be clearer next time and we won't end up in this misunderstanding.
Incidentally isn't consensual rape an oxymoron.
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On July 30 2014 01:08 r.Evo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 29 2014 21:32 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Thirdly, pride rallies. I'm actually shocked that you tried to make an analogy equating homosexuality to beating your girlfriend, but I'll chalk that up to "linguistic unconsciousness" because I don't actually think you think that homosexuality is anything like that. Maybe what you meant to do was equate it to some type of SM-fetish thing where your girlfriend was actually very happy and even sexually aroused through being slapped around the city, but you didn't say that and I need to base my reply around what you wrote rather than what you possibly could have meant to say that would make it less stupid. And it would be pretty stupid anyway. Either way though, there are multiple reasons why pride rallies are important.
Why do I have to attach "...which we both consensually agree to and enjoy"? That is exactly what I meant by there being other minorities that are way less accepted in our western societies than gays and lesbians, I'll give you both that you added a possible distinction but that's a clear cut example from two people I consider way ahead of the general population when it comes to such a topic. If I said "Where we would have sex in the streets" you wouldn't assume that it's rape, if I said "having sex with my boyfriend in the streets" you wouldn't assume it either. Beating someone isn't any less wrong than putting your penis in another man's ass. Both are illegal without consent, both are legal with consent. Besides that, why is it a stupid comparison anyway? I actually think the way the LGBT "scene" handles their things could learn a lot from the kink scene. Overall the way things get handled there is a lot less, well, flamboyant and therefor much less of a deal to the general public. Because it's like, we on the teamliquid staff know that teamliquid is a webpage dedicated to computer games, and that we don't actually dictate global policy. We understand that countries where homosexuality is illegal will not suddenly make it legal because we changed our logo. Still though, I think it's nice to show our support, even knowing that it will not immediately convince any policy makers of anything. Furthermore, it seems like you are somehow very positive towards homosexuality and homosexuals, but you don't support us voicing our support of homosexuality and homosexuals' ability to freely showcase their sexuality because there are still other sexual or other minorities that need our support more? A place like TL has many ways to directly influence opinion via the things it does best: Providing great content and information. An interview with Scarlett with questions that maybe go under the hood for your average interview. Gay staff blogging about their trips with their loved ones with pictures and stuff. Hell, TL staff blogging about the fun they had at the Amsterdam Pride Week with pictures and then link it through the Rainbow logo. An article about gay starcraft player x in place y where he actually is struggling because of public opinion and/or laws. Do all of the above and link the logo to the entire series, make an entire event out of it for a week or two to show support with words and actions! TL already has one of the most awesome moderation policies (aka zero tolerance) when it comes to these topics, the next logical step isn't to post a banner like a 16 year old kid that just discovered it's cool to be pro-LGBT on Facebook. The next step is to set an example with the way a community treats LGBT-members (hint: normal) and do cool shit that with it that your userbase might enjoy. Secondly, have you ever played computer games on the internet before and have you been to other communities formed by and inhabited by males in their late teens or twenties? Most of these communities, hell, most places inhabited by male teenagers, suffer from the word "gay" being thrown around ubiquitously as some generic negative word. Faggot is certainly among the most used direct insults. Even though it might not be that big a deal to you, I don't know how linguistically conscious you are, I've talked to several homosexuals who find this hurtful, and I live in a Norwegian city - as open of a region as you could possibly find. Our community comparably being relatively free from insults deriving from sexual orientation is a consequence of our active stance in this issue. These logo changes reflect that and are very much in line with the broader site philosophy. Drone, I'm registered here since 4 years less than you, of course I have. =P - I just don't consider it as big of an issue as you do. When it comes to insults like these I have the same stance as with similars (e.g. "Nigger") which isn't what TL shares as a general idea. Since I can completely accept that idea I'm not using any of that stuff here but I do believe it's by no means the most effective stance for daily life. I am confident that it is inherently impossible to influence another persons behavior by trying to force them to something. Neither I, nor you nor anyone else on this planet can prevent people from using any word as an insult that is intended to hurt. Following this I believe it's a horrible idea to try and shame those words until no one uses them anymore (which won't happen) and instead encourage people to use them lightheartedly, jokingly and take them back that way. It's obviously way easier with audio and visual clues than via text, but there are hundreds of ways to use insults in positive ways which slowly but surely take their power as insults away. It's a lot easier to be proud of things that describe what you are than trying to eradicate it's usage. To get back on topic: What you call "active stance" is million, million times more awesome than a random banner change once in a while that somehow gets celebrated as if it's core of what makes TL awesome about it. TL as a site already shows its stance to its users with action. TL could show its more dedicated stance with even more action (e.g. see above). The last thing this world needs is people putting up flags and other people celebrating that there's now a flag (hence the Facebook comparison). Like you said, sexuality is personal. So is opening up about being gay. For many homosexuals, "leaving the closet" is about the biggest decision they ever make. It's such a difficult thing that there are still many who don't do it. It almost seems like most homosexuals try out heterosexuality because they really really want to be normal, accepted and not having to worry about people finding out who they "really" are. Pride rallies are one great, great avenue for homosexuals who have not yet had the guts to openly tell society about who they are: Firstly, they can see that other people who are homosexuals are actually parading through the streets without being beaten up and hated. Strength in numbers and all that. Secondly, it's actually possible to participate anonymously in those - which again can be really helpful for teenagers who are on the verge of accepting their "new identity". Thirdly, while you seem to think that western european societies are completely accepting of homosexuals and homosexuality, pride rallies deserve some credit for this development through normalizing behavior we previously found shocking. Two men holding hands while walking down the street - which in Trondheim would have been a fairly shocking sight 20 years ago - and something countless homosexuals have been beaten up over - just doesn't hold the same shock value when you just last week watched twenty leather-clad ultra-flamboyant homosexuals partying through the streets on some crazy gay party bus. This might be me being too open or me being too uninformed so maybe you can help me out. Why is the closet a big deal in the first place? As an example, as long as I can remember being sexually active I was into non-vanilla stuff. Obviously when you're young that scares you and obviously when you're young you don't talk to many people (or anyone) about it for that matter because you're not sure how they'll react. However you'll end up at 18+, you end up moving out and then you just go visit certain parties and meet certain not-so-vanilla people and learn that it's nothing evil and start to enjoy your actual desires. But I don't recall ever feeling the need for "a talk" with family or friends. "Yo btw I'm really into consensual rape and so is my gf here" isn't exactly anyone's concern. However, if the topic comes up among friends and/or someone saw something that made them ask there is also no huge deal in sitting down with them and explaining things. What is so different about gays that a young dude can't just live his own life, satisfy his curiosity at various parties, find a cool guy and... just start a relationship with him? Why is there a need to tell friends and family in one huge coming out: "HEY EVERYONE I NEED TO TELL YOU WHAT I'M INTO"? (I'm strictly speaking about e.g. Germany/Netherlands/Scandinavia here.). Why do young gays pressure themselves to do that? What are people actually afraid of? And don't tell me it's being beaten up in the middle of daylight or being fired by their boss if he finds out. Sure, I do know some cases where people don't talk to certain family members anymore, sure I know people who lost a couple of friends over it but that's a normal thing in life and imho just part of growing up in the first place. Basically the only point I can truly understand is that those rallies must be awesome for people still living at home and being afraid of repercussions from their parents. But even in that case (sorry for drawing a comparison to kink again) why aren't there meetings for young gays to just chill and talk? If I was a young kinkster I could google for a minute and then walk 10 minutes to find what is basically a support/curiosity group between 14-21 (or 14-27) right here in my city (half a million population). /rant, maybe that makes my position a bit more clear. tl;dr: I consider TL to be better than a rainbow banner for some special occasion. I also consider the average TL user to be better than celebrating the special rainbow banner as more than a special rainbow banner. Those expectations are clashing with what I'm seeing done with the banner and what I'm seeing from other users in this thread. Hence me being vocal about it.
Because unless you want to keep all your relationships a secret; coming out is something you need to do at some point. Even in countries where it is fairly accepted, a good deal of parents/friends/coworkers/etc can have terrible/harmful reactions to it. Whether it is just casually mentioned in a conversation or it's a big deal depends on the person and their situation. Who you're into is not the same as what you're into.
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Norway28665 Posts
Are you really trying to say that liking violent sex is similar to homosexuality? That it's part of your identity in the same way?
See it's like, I can get where you're coming from kinda. Because you, like most enlightened western youth, only consider homosexuals different from heterosexuals in terms of what sex they prefer. They prefer having sex with men, just like you prefer sex when it's "more exciting". But the thing is, like you're saying, sex is private. Nobody knows that you like to punch your gf when you have sex with her (or whatever your thing is, no judgement from me!), so it's not part of your identity. Being homosexual differs greatly in this one aspect. Like, right now, whether society approves of your sexual habits doesn't really matter much as long as you can find someone to enjoy them with, because nobody else has to know. Homosexuals don't have this luxury; they can only be with the ones they love as long as society approves, because everyone can immediately see that they are homosexuals.
This is why "coming out" and being accepted for it is so important. And that's why fighting an active stance against slurry language is very important - one of the biggest issues for homosexual teenagers is that all their friends, who might not be homophobic at all, throw around fag and gay like insults without considering how that's hurtful to their closet homosexual friends, but it's also why pride rallies have played an important role in making gays more comfortable with being publicly gay, because the pride rallies push the boundaries for what is acceptable. (for example two men holding hands is less offensive after you watched a gay orgy). Further, gaming communities are in general dominated by male teenagers/early twenties, ours is very international and has a majority of its membership base from outside north-western Europe, and I just think it's nice to subtly (at least by pride-rally standards :D) voice our support in addition to the other moderational efforts we make. You are of course entitled to think it's a useless effort, and to think that maybe it does absolutely nothing at all.. We however have evidence of that not being the case because both this year and last year, several gay members of our community stated how they were really happy to see us voice our support for their cause, and from my perspective, that alone makes it worth it. If we were doing this while our staff members called people faggot while banning them, you'd have a very good point in saying that this is just useless posturing, but us changing the color of our horses' mane does not diminish any other efforts we're making, and us focusing on homosexuals does not mean that we're blind to or uncaring about other worldly problems.
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Gosh the past few posts make me really happy to be posting in teamliquid. Can we have a rainbow version of the hoodie please.
That said I worry for Scarlett: why are you in North Korea!
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I for one am really glad TL does this. It's a great gesture for LGBT people and especially in the gaming community where everyone throws around the word faggot (which does hurt) like it's nothing showing support for the LGBT is very much needed. Gestures and symbols are underappreciated in today's society, they do have a meaning though!
Of course TL could do more, but I think it'd overcharge TL's capacities and as many activist groups (be it animal rights groups, political groups, LGBT groups etc.) have experienced it's better to subtly push for your ideals than to bluntly force it on people. And that's why I don't think the rainbow is too big of a political statement. It just doesn't force gay pride on anyone as it's just a symbol, but it's a great way to say that LGBT people are welcome here. This small gesture does a lot, because as a gay/bisexual or transexual person you can never know if you're welcome anywhere and it's really emotionally supporting to know that TL is a forum where you can openly talk about this topic.
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On July 30 2014 01:47 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Are you really trying to say that liking violent sex is similar to homosexuality? That it's part of your identity in the same way?
See it's like, I can get where you're coming from kinda. Because you, like most enlightened western youth, only consider homosexuals different from heterosexuals in terms of what sex they prefer. They prefer having sex with men, just like you prefer sex when it's "more exciting". But the thing is, like you're saying, sex is private. Nobody knows that you like to punch your gf when you have sex with her (or whatever your thing is, no judgement from me!), so it's not part of your identity. Being homosexual differs greatly in this one aspect. Like, right now, whether society approves of your sexual habits doesn't really matter much as long as you can find someone to enjoy them with, because nobody else has to know. Homosexuals don't have this luxury; they can only be with the ones they love as long as society approves, because everyone can immediately see that they are homosexuals.
This is why "coming out" and being accepted for it is so important. And that's why fighting an active stance against slurry language is very important - one of the biggest issues for homosexual teenagers is that all their friends, who might not be homophobic at all, throw around fag and gay like insults without considering how that's hurtful to their closet homosexual friends, but it's also why pride rallies have played an important role in making gays more comfortable with being publicly gay, because the pride rallies push the boundaries for what is acceptable. (for example two men holding hands is less offensive after you watched a gay orgy). Further, gaming communities are in general dominated by male teenagers/early twenties, ours is very international and has a majority of its membership base from outside north-western Europe, and I just think it's nice to subtly (at least by pride-rally standards :D) voice our support in addition to the other moderational efforts we make. You are of course entitled to think it's a useless effort, and to think that maybe it does absolutely nothing at all.. We however have evidence of that not being the case because both this year and last year, several gay members of our community stated how they were really happy to see us voice our support for their cause, and from my perspective, that alone makes it worth it. If we were doing this while our staff members called people faggot while banning them, you'd have a very good point in saying that this is just useless posturing, but us changing the color of our horses' mane does not diminish any other efforts we're making, and us focusing on homosexuals does not mean that we're blind to or uncaring about other worldly problems.
Man, what a great post. I was thinking about the best way that you could possibly word an argument so the dumb dumbs would understand that the moment you compare homosexuality to anything else that isn't homosexuality, you've already fucked up. People keep making the same arguments that don't make sense from the ground up. This should shut a few folks up at least.
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On July 26 2014 14:27 Gen.Rolly wrote:
Like I mentioned in the previous thread, an unnecessary political statement and a slap in the face of those who contribute to the site that do not share the same political views.
Don't know why you find it such a slap in the face.
Anyways, yay TL keep up the great work
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United States23455 Posts
On July 29 2014 23:56 zdfgucker wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 23:33 Ayaz2810 wrote:
Good job TL. And I'm actually shocked that there are still people who argue and rant, instead of simply appreciating the message. Just because you choose to support one cause doesnt mean you ignore the rest. If TL had something on the site for every cause, there wouldn't be any room for content. Right now, the global issue of rights for LGBT is a big thing, and something worth getting behind. All you people lipping off need to just accept that this is the cause chosen by TL in support of its members. Online activism is laughable at best and sad at worst. By looking at a shiny banner you change pretty much nothing. If anybody cared enough, they'd be protesting in the streets. Also, this is a "big thing", according to whom? A few internet people? I'm sure those people are vastly outnumbered by people who live in real poverty. I blocked the whole banner, I don't want politics on TL, sorry.
… I think it is a big thing globally according to people in Uganda/Russia/etc that are being arrested for being gay not according to "A few internet people".
This really isn't online activism either it's really just a gesture of support to members of the LBGT community that may use TL. Also there seems to be a lot of "Why care about any issue if it's not literally THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE AS DEFINED BY ME?" or "Why do anything in regards to an issue if it's not the hardest you can possibly work to support that issue?"
It seems odd to me that people object so strongly to small gestures of support from TL
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On July 30 2014 01:47 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Are you really trying to say that liking violent sex is similar to homosexuality? That it's part of your identity in the same way?
I really don't think they're as far away from each other as you make it out to be. Sure, as Scarlett put it "Who you're into is not the same as what you're into" but at the same time I believe both are similar enough to be thrown under the same hood: If it's between two people who can consent, who do consent and who gain happiness from it (with the legislator stepping in to avoid long-term harm or actual injuries), why isn't it about the same?
Nobody knows that you like to punch your gf when you have sex with her (or whatever your thing is, no judgement from me!), so it's not part of your identity.
Is it really? As with many other kinksters I remember having fantasies since a rather young age (12-14) and as with many others I could not imagine having a kink-free relationship. If you look around for a bit you find dozens of stories about people who have been married for 10+ years in vanilla relationships, people who have tried to adjust to the "sexual norm" and people who are genuinely suffering under the feeling that they are completely abnormal and disgusting.
It's eerily similar to LGBT stories, is it not?
The main reason I'm mentioning it as "less accepted" at the same time is because the way legislators and e.g. therapists treat it on top of the public opinion. People recommend so called "Kink aware" lists of therapists for example to find one that does not try to treat your for an abusive relationship when you're genuinely happy in said relationship and visiting him for something else. Ever had a conversation with feminists who, despite insisting on sexual self-determination, also insist that any and all violence against a woman has to be abuse and trying to explain you your relationship can only exist because you're forcing the other into it aka Stockholm syndrome?
At the same time we don't have "homosexuality aware" therapists (despite it being treated as a disorder before) or, in general, you don't have to justify yourself because someone can't imagine anyone (!) wanting a gay sexual relatonship.
Homosexuals don't have this luxury; they can only be with the ones they love as long as society approves, because everyone can immediately see that they are homosexuals.
I genuinely don't think so. (Still in the aforementioned countries on this one.) We obviously agree that meeting someone in specific clubs or figuring out your sexuality in your bedroom isn't an issue so it comes down to doing stuff in public. How does society prevent anyone from holding hands together? Kissing in public? Sure, there might be weird looks, but there always will be for anything that isn't "normal" in the sense of "the norm" and that's totally alright. So what is left is your family, friends and co-workers. I don't know about you but I personally have cut ties with friends and family in the past if they've shown that they would break off a personal relationship because of what (or who) someone is into. Again, to me that's just part of growing up and getting older.
So what's left is your place of work. Bill saw you kissing your boyfriend in public and is telling stories about how you're gay and is starting to make fun of it. Nowadays, in our countries, the unions have our back, lawyers have our back and judges have our back. Yes, it most likely is a bigger deal than a "completely normal" person would have to deal with (which again, I consider to be alright), but if someone wants to challenge you being with your loved ones at your place of work you have all the tools at hand to stand your ground and fight it out legally. It's really not much different from someone being discriminated against because of their gender or their religion.
but it's also why pride rallies have played an important role in making gays more comfortable with being publicly gay, because the pride rallies push the boundaries for what is acceptable. (for example two men holding hands is less offensive after you watched a gay orgy).
I can understand your other point but that is what I consider complete and utter bullshit. I don't want to be shown a gay orgy. I don't want someone else to be shown what I do in the bedroom. Personal freedom has to stop where another persons personal freedom begins and that's one step too far. I don't care whether it's a gay orgy, a heterosexual orgy or a bdsm orgy. It doesn't belong in public where neutral observers can easily see it by accident. That's a classy example of something that I see celebrated in the LGBT community when all it does is make everyone involved look stupid, immature and inconsiderate. We have laws against a heterosexual orgy in the streets and the same laws should apply to homosexuals. So either we make orgies in public alright (please fucking no) or we tell anyone who is doing one to get it behind closed doors.
Further, gaming communities are in general dominated by male teenagers/early twenties, ours is very international and has a majority of its membership base from outside north-western Europe, and I just think it's nice to subtly (at least by pride-rally standards :D) voice our support in addition to the other moderational efforts we make. You are of course entitled to think it's a useless effort, and to think that maybe it does absolutely nothing at all.. We however have evidence of that not being the case because both this year and last year, several gay members of our community stated how they were really happy to see us voice our support for their cause, and from my perspective, that alone makes it worth it. If we were doing this while our staff members called people faggot while banning them, you'd have a very good point in saying that this is just useless posturing, but us changing the color of our horses' mane does not diminish any other efforts we're making, and us focusing on homosexuals does not mean that we're blind to or uncaring about other worldly problems.
As I already said, I feel as if an action like this is a horrible example to follow because it's been abused left right and center. Someone puts up a nice flag to support a cause, people clap in excitement and everyone goes home after a week and is like "Man, I'm glad place xyz really supports a good cause!" when nothing of value has been done.
I think it just makes it weirder that this is coming from the staff of a site that's known for excellence in whatever it does, for high quality content and for setting the bar for others. Personally I'd rather see no public displays for a thing like this (while keeping the policies up) than a seemingly random public display without quality content. Final Edits, stories, interviews, blogs, picture stories - TL has dozens of ways to "promote gay rights" in meaningful ways that can touch people and can change minds. Individual stories, struggles and emotions. Just... not just a banner change.
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On July 30 2014 03:25 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 23:56 zdfgucker wrote:On July 29 2014 23:33 Ayaz2810 wrote:
Good job TL. And I'm actually shocked that there are still people who argue and rant, instead of simply appreciating the message. Just because you choose to support one cause doesnt mean you ignore the rest. If TL had something on the site for every cause, there wouldn't be any room for content. Right now, the global issue of rights for LGBT is a big thing, and something worth getting behind. All you people lipping off need to just accept that this is the cause chosen by TL in support of its members. Online activism is laughable at best and sad at worst. By looking at a shiny banner you change pretty much nothing. If anybody cared enough, they'd be protesting in the streets. Also, this is a "big thing", according to whom? A few internet people? I'm sure those people are vastly outnumbered by people who live in real poverty. I blocked the whole banner, I don't want politics on TL, sorry. … I think it is a big thing globally according to people in Uganda/ Russia/etc that are being arrested for being gay not according to "A few internet people".
This might delve slightly off-topic but this is probably the one thread where people actually care to read sources: Which people that are arrested for being gay in Russia?
According to this paper (which is still the best analysis of the "Russian anti-gay-laws" I've read since the western media tore the topic apart) there have been a total of two convictions since 2006, both of which have been overturned since. I highly recommend checking out the paper I linked either way, simply because it seems pretty well researched compared to what I've gotten from our media. It's obviously written by an American for Americans (hence the direct comparisons) but that shouldn't really be a deterrent.
Maybe we have someone from Russia who can out it as utter bullshit or clarify the issue a little more.
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Ah, I was pretty confused since the major NA pride weeks were last month, didn't think of checking Europe. Glad to see this
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To put it plainly, kink and homosexuals are different things. Yes there are common issues but to suggest that your sexual fetishism is on the same order as sexual orientation is just not intellectually honest. You're not applying your mind to the degree to which kink and orientation feature in people's lives. And further it's a false comparison between public violent sex and homosexuality. Pride Parades aren't all about sex in public it's a celebration about being gay, which as we have taken pains to point out, is much more than anal sex.
Look, just because the kink community does things one way does not mean that it's the best way for all minorities. I've no idea why you seem to think that the gay community should follow the kink model as well. How about you guys do your thing and the gays do their thing. Heck if you want your consensual rape parade go ahead. If you never wanted one in the first place then why complain about pride parades?
Finally as to the rainbow horse I'd really suggest that you let those who are more connected to the issue decide on whether it's meaningful. From your posts it seems that you're not lgbtq and so probably aren't in the best position to say whether the rainbow horse is good or not. In addition, the need for you to limit all your arguments to countries with very liberal gay laws already suggests that you concede that this could well be a meaningful gesture to the rest of the world who aren't from Germany and Scandinavia.
On a personal note I find it rather annoying that you're commenting on the usefulness of a gesture which does not really affect you, and holding teamliquid to your own arbitrary standard of what would be "appropriate action". This sort of sentiment seems to me to be implicitly dismissive of actual lgbtq people who do have a very real stake in this issue. I mean if we accept what you're saying completely we would have to remove the rainbow horse (assuming we aren't going to do more) despite the fact that many members both lgbtq and straight find meaningful. Empathy man. Have some.
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On July 30 2014 01:47 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Are you really trying to say that liking violent sex is similar to homosexuality? That it's part of your identity in the same way?
See it's like, I can get where you're coming from kinda. Because you, like most enlightened western youth, only consider homosexuals different from heterosexuals in terms of what sex they prefer. They prefer having sex with men, just like you prefer sex when it's "more exciting". But the thing is, like you're saying, sex is private. Nobody knows that you like to punch your gf when you have sex with her (or whatever your thing is, no judgement from me!), so it's not part of your identity. Being homosexual differs greatly in this one aspect. Like, right now, whether society approves of your sexual habits doesn't really matter much as long as you can find someone to enjoy them with, because nobody else has to know. Homosexuals don't have this luxury; they can only be with the ones they love as long as society approves, because everyone can immediately see that they are homosexuals.
This is why "coming out" and being accepted for it is so important. And that's why fighting an active stance against slurry language is very important - one of the biggest issues for homosexual teenagers is that all their friends, who might not be homophobic at all, throw around fag and gay like insults without considering how that's hurtful to their closet homosexual friends, but it's also why pride rallies have played an important role in making gays more comfortable with being publicly gay, because the pride rallies push the boundaries for what is acceptable. (for example two men holding hands is less offensive after you watched a gay orgy). Further, gaming communities are in general dominated by male teenagers/early twenties, ours is very international and has a majority of its membership base from outside north-western Europe, and I just think it's nice to subtly (at least by pride-rally standards :D) voice our support in addition to the other moderational efforts we make. You are of course entitled to think it's a useless effort, and to think that maybe it does absolutely nothing at all.. We however have evidence of that not being the case because both this year and last year, several gay members of our community stated how they were really happy to see us voice our support for their cause, and from my perspective, that alone makes it worth it. If we were doing this while our staff members called people faggot while banning them, you'd have a very good point in saying that this is just useless posturing, but us changing the color of our horses' mane does not diminish any other efforts we're making, and us focusing on homosexuals does not mean that we're blind to or uncaring about other worldly problems.
I wouldn't say that the BDSM comparison is entirely off. Obviously there are differing degrees of involvement in the lifestyle, but I imagine that coming out as an extreme submissive to your significant other of X months/years is no less terrifying than telling your family that you're gay. Or ultra conservative parents stumbling on your gag and rope is just as problematic as them finding you kissing someone of the same gender.
And dismissing it as just something to spice up your sex life kind of shows that you haven't given the same level of research to this subject as you have for LGBT material. Granted, there are plenty of people who just pull out ropes for a one-off experiment. But there are also people who have a much more compulsive and psychological attachment, where being in a "vanilla" relationship is probably very analogous to being in a relationship with someone of a gender you're not attracted to.
Of course, if there is anyone with a large investment in a BDSM lifestyle here, don't let me speak for you. Can't say I have any personal knowledge.
(Also not suggesting we have the Liquid horse turn into a Wooden pony for a week)
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United States23455 Posts
On July 30 2014 12:00 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 03:25 Darkhorse wrote:On July 29 2014 23:56 zdfgucker wrote:On July 29 2014 23:33 Ayaz2810 wrote:
Good job TL. And I'm actually shocked that there are still people who argue and rant, instead of simply appreciating the message. Just because you choose to support one cause doesnt mean you ignore the rest. If TL had something on the site for every cause, there wouldn't be any room for content. Right now, the global issue of rights for LGBT is a big thing, and something worth getting behind. All you people lipping off need to just accept that this is the cause chosen by TL in support of its members. Online activism is laughable at best and sad at worst. By looking at a shiny banner you change pretty much nothing. If anybody cared enough, they'd be protesting in the streets. Also, this is a "big thing", according to whom? A few internet people? I'm sure those people are vastly outnumbered by people who live in real poverty. I blocked the whole banner, I don't want politics on TL, sorry. … I think it is a big thing globally according to people in Uganda/ Russia/etc that are being arrested for being gay not according to "A few internet people". This might delve slightly off-topic but this is probably the one thread where people actually care to read sources: Which people that are arrested for being gay in Russia? According to this paper (which is still the best analysis of the "Russian anti-gay-laws" I've read since the western media tore the topic apart) there have been a total of two convictions since 2006, both of which have been overturned since. I highly recommend checking out the paper I linked either way, simply because it seems pretty well researched compared to what I've gotten from our media. It's obviously written by an American for Americans (hence the direct comparisons) but that shouldn't really be a deterrent. Maybe we have someone from Russia who can out it as utter bullshit or clarify the issue a little more.
Probably should have been more thorough in researching the situation in Russia before posting about it here. That was a bad example and thank you for pointing that out.
I think my point still stands, however. It is a big issue (not the biggest issue in the world overall probably) because there is in fact persecution for homosexuals all over the world. I erroneously used Russia as an example but that is hardly the worst area to be gay, just got a lot of attention because it is a first world country and were strict on homosexuality.
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On July 30 2014 12:11 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 12:00 r.Evo wrote:On July 30 2014 03:25 Darkhorse wrote:On July 29 2014 23:56 zdfgucker wrote:On July 29 2014 23:33 Ayaz2810 wrote:
Good job TL. And I'm actually shocked that there are still people who argue and rant, instead of simply appreciating the message. Just because you choose to support one cause doesnt mean you ignore the rest. If TL had something on the site for every cause, there wouldn't be any room for content. Right now, the global issue of rights for LGBT is a big thing, and something worth getting behind. All you people lipping off need to just accept that this is the cause chosen by TL in support of its members. Online activism is laughable at best and sad at worst. By looking at a shiny banner you change pretty much nothing. If anybody cared enough, they'd be protesting in the streets. Also, this is a "big thing", according to whom? A few internet people? I'm sure those people are vastly outnumbered by people who live in real poverty. I blocked the whole banner, I don't want politics on TL, sorry. … I think it is a big thing globally according to people in Uganda/ Russia/etc that are being arrested for being gay not according to "A few internet people". This might delve slightly off-topic but this is probably the one thread where people actually care to read sources: Which people that are arrested for being gay in Russia? According to this paper (which is still the best analysis of the "Russian anti-gay-laws" I've read since the western media tore the topic apart) there have been a total of two convictions since 2006, both of which have been overturned since. I highly recommend checking out the paper I linked either way, simply because it seems pretty well researched compared to what I've gotten from our media. It's obviously written by an American for Americans (hence the direct comparisons) but that shouldn't really be a deterrent. Maybe we have someone from Russia who can out it as utter bullshit or clarify the issue a little more. Probably should have been more thorough in researching the situation in Russia before posting about it here. That was a bad example and thank you for pointing that out. I think my point still stands, however. It is a big issue (not the biggest issue in the world overall probably) because there is in fact persecution for homosexuals all over the world. I erroneously used Russia as an example but that is hardly the worst area to be gay, just got a lot of attention because it is a first world country and were strict on homosexuality.
I mostly mentioned it because I'm not sure myself if that article I linked is factually absolutely correct, it's just become a thing to mention how it's illegal to be gay in Russia when it might not be entirely true. Not trying to take away the general point. <3
On July 30 2014 12:07 levelping wrote:
To put it plainly, kink and homosexuals are different things. Yes there are common issues but to suggest that your sexual fetishism is on the same order as sexual orientation is just not intellectually honest. You're not applying your mind to the degree to which kink and orientation feature in people's lives.
Things like 24/7 relationships have probably a stronger feature in people's lives than any possible "regular" hetero or homosexual relationships. Hell there are lots and lots of members of various kink communities who literally can't be happy without it in a relationship. Why do you consider it any different if a man craves a relationship with another man or if a man craves a relationship with another women in which he isn't allowed to ever orgasm unless she allows him to?
You're trying to argue that one thing is better or worse when my point is that any and all relationships between consenting individuals (yes, plural) that are able to give consent should be treated the same. No more or less rights for anyone. Within that spirit it is very, very easily to follow up with "Things like polyamoric or BDSM relationships are treated less equal than homosexual relationships". The sheer idea that you try to turn this into some form of "us vs them" is completely bonkers.
On a personal note I find it rather annoying that you're commenting on the usefulness of a gesture which does not really affect you, and holding teamliquid to your own arbitrary standard of what would be "appropriate action". This sort of sentiment seems to me to be implicitly dismissive of actual lgbtq people who do have a very real stake in this issue. I mean if we accept what you're saying completely we would have to remove the rainbow horse (assuming we aren't going to do more) despite the fact that many members both lgbtq and straight find meaningful.
It doesn't affect me? The idea that changing a banner or putting up a flag equals "showing support" is incredibly prominent both online and offline. It has become a politically correct, non-committing way of saying "I really support an issue but I don't really want to do anything about it that has actual value or requires time and effort". It's what I expect politicians to do, not a place that actually cares.
If you'd accept what I'm saying completely we'd have interviews with LGBT eSports figures, we'd have a blog of R1CH getting drunk with Nazgul in the streets of Amsterdam and there would be a Final Edit piece about the history of famous gay figures in eSports.
TL is known for action, active policies and quality content and that's the TL I've come to love over the years. A banner change with a couple of happy faces isn't part of that. Do it right, or don't do it at all. I really, genuinely don't care that the issue that this was done first with is a rainbow horse.
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United States23455 Posts
On July 30 2014 12:39 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 12:11 Darkhorse wrote:On July 30 2014 12:00 r.Evo wrote:On July 30 2014 03:25 Darkhorse wrote:On July 29 2014 23:56 zdfgucker wrote:On July 29 2014 23:33 Ayaz2810 wrote:
Good job TL. And I'm actually shocked that there are still people who argue and rant, instead of simply appreciating the message. Just because you choose to support one cause doesnt mean you ignore the rest. If TL had something on the site for every cause, there wouldn't be any room for content. Right now, the global issue of rights for LGBT is a big thing, and something worth getting behind. All you people lipping off need to just accept that this is the cause chosen by TL in support of its members. Online activism is laughable at best and sad at worst. By looking at a shiny banner you change pretty much nothing. If anybody cared enough, they'd be protesting in the streets. Also, this is a "big thing", according to whom? A few internet people? I'm sure those people are vastly outnumbered by people who live in real poverty. I blocked the whole banner, I don't want politics on TL, sorry. … I think it is a big thing globally according to people in Uganda/ Russia/etc that are being arrested for being gay not according to "A few internet people". This might delve slightly off-topic but this is probably the one thread where people actually care to read sources: Which people that are arrested for being gay in Russia? According to this paper (which is still the best analysis of the "Russian anti-gay-laws" I've read since the western media tore the topic apart) there have been a total of two convictions since 2006, both of which have been overturned since. I highly recommend checking out the paper I linked either way, simply because it seems pretty well researched compared to what I've gotten from our media. It's obviously written by an American for Americans (hence the direct comparisons) but that shouldn't really be a deterrent. Maybe we have someone from Russia who can out it as utter bullshit or clarify the issue a little more. Probably should have been more thorough in researching the situation in Russia before posting about it here. That was a bad example and thank you for pointing that out. I think my point still stands, however. It is a big issue (not the biggest issue in the world overall probably) because there is in fact persecution for homosexuals all over the world. I erroneously used Russia as an example but that is hardly the worst area to be gay, just got a lot of attention because it is a first world country and were strict on homosexuality. I mostly mentioned it because I'm not sure myself if that article I linked is factually absolutely correct, it's just become a thing to mention how it's illegal to be gay in Russia when it might not be entirely true. Not trying to take away the general point. <3
Yeah apparently laws that outlaw homosexuality are sparsely enforced in most places. In that spotlight on Uganda's anti-gay laws on Last Week Tonight the guest said that over the past few years there had only been one conviction and he didn't even serve his sentence (although he then said that they seem to be preparing to crack down)
Anyway it would seem that the guy writing the thing about Russia's law knows what he's talking about, but I am no lawyer.
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At r.EVO:
I'm not turning this into us versus them. On the contrary in the second paragraph of my previous post I've already stated that the kink community is free to do whatever it wants but that it's flawed to think that what works for kink works for the gay community. It's actually you, albeit unintentionally I am sure, who has brought this conversation down to "well the kink community does this why must the gay community so something else". If it's kink parades you want go ahead (I'm sure there are some), if you don't want them that's cool too.
Even accepting what you say about some kink relationships being 24/7 (though I fail to see how they will feature stronger than regular homosexual lifestyles since homosexuals also happen to be homosexual 24/7) the above point would apply. That said while I can accept that in some very dedicated dom/sub relationships the kink lifestyle would be immensely pervasive, this small number of cases cannot compare to being gay wherein any relationship would be 24/7 homosexual, to use your terminology. The comparison remains disingenuous.
Finally what you are proposing is that tl either so it all or nothing. This is first a false dichotomy that arises from a purely arbitrary standard you have created. Second, I think this thread and the fact that not all tl readers come fromm the countries of Germany and Scandinavia (another artifical restriction you rely on to make your arguments work - if we are talking about the world it is pretty obvious that the kink community is able to legally get married, have children etc everywhere but homosexuals aren't able to, entirely negating your concern that what happens between consensual adults should receive the same rights (which as a matter of fact they don't), and leaving your argument with no legs to stand on) readily demonstrate that contrary to your expectations many do find this a meaningful and good expression of support. Your notion that we should take this whole thing down without coverage of Amsterdam Pride is pretty disrespectful of everyone else's (many of whom might, unlike yourself, actually be lgbtq and so have a personal stake in this) view of this being quite meaningful.
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Russian Federation66 Posts
On July 30 2014 12:00 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 03:25 Darkhorse wrote:On July 29 2014 23:56 zdfgucker wrote:On July 29 2014 23:33 Ayaz2810 wrote:
Good job TL. And I'm actually shocked that there are still people who argue and rant, instead of simply appreciating the message. Just because you choose to support one cause doesnt mean you ignore the rest. If TL had something on the site for every cause, there wouldn't be any room for content. Right now, the global issue of rights for LGBT is a big thing, and something worth getting behind. All you people lipping off need to just accept that this is the cause chosen by TL in support of its members. Online activism is laughable at best and sad at worst. By looking at a shiny banner you change pretty much nothing. If anybody cared enough, they'd be protesting in the streets. Also, this is a "big thing", according to whom? A few internet people? I'm sure those people are vastly outnumbered by people who live in real poverty. I blocked the whole banner, I don't want politics on TL, sorry. … I think it is a big thing globally according to people in Uganda/ Russia/etc that are being arrested for being gay not according to "A few internet people". This might delve slightly off-topic but this is probably the one thread where people actually care to read sources: Which people that are arrested for being gay in Russia? According to this paper (which is still the best analysis of the "Russian anti-gay-laws" I've read since the western media tore the topic apart) there have been a total of two convictions since 2006, both of which have been overturned since. I highly recommend checking out the paper I linked either way, simply because it seems pretty well researched compared to what I've gotten from our media. It's obviously written by an American for Americans (hence the direct comparisons) but that shouldn't really be a deterrent. Maybe we have someone from Russia who can out it as utter bullshit or clarify the issue a little more.
As far as I know no one is arrested here just for being gay. In that way Russia is definitely better than Uganda. I think the main problem here is that rights guaranteed by our Constitution (like for example freedom of assembly) often don't work for LGBT people. That goes not only for LGBT though. And of course Russian society in general is homophobic and this attitude is actually backed by our authorities and the media.
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good to know that our religious fanatic r.evo is back to continue his crusade against the evil gays he started last year.
User was warned for this post
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Off all the issues of the modern world You choose to make a stand on this on? Hunger, genocides, wars, pollution, tortures, illegal occupations, diseases and much more....And yet the one thing that TL makes political stand on is LGBT.This is weird.
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On July 30 2014 15:39 Silvanel wrote:
Off all the issues of the modern world You choose to make a stand on this on? Hunger, genocides, wars, pollution, tortures, illegal occupations, diseases and much more....And yet the one thing that TL makes political stand on is LGBT.This is weird.
False dichotomy suggesting that caring about lgbt issues means you don't care about everything else. Also liquid drone has explained why this is important given the prevalence of homosexual slurs in gaming culture.
Try again.
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So what I was expecting was a thread full of (maybe slightly over-the-top) praise for a nice gesture. I am so confused and baffled by some of these responses, I really am.
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On July 30 2014 15:43 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 15:39 Silvanel wrote:
Off all the issues of the modern world You choose to make a stand on this on? Hunger, genocides, wars, pollution, tortures, illegal occupations, diseases and much more....And yet the one thing that TL makes political stand on is LGBT.This is weird. False dichotomy suggesting that caring about lgbt issues means you don't care about everything else. Also liquid drone has explained why this is important given the prevalence of homosexual slurs in gaming culture. Try again.
BS. Racial slurs are much more prelevant in gaming culture.
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On July 30 2014 15:51 Silvanel wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 15:43 levelping wrote:On July 30 2014 15:39 Silvanel wrote:
Off all the issues of the modern world You choose to make a stand on this on? Hunger, genocides, wars, pollution, tortures, illegal occupations, diseases and much more....And yet the one thing that TL makes political stand on is LGBT.This is weird. False dichotomy suggesting that caring about lgbt issues means you don't care about everything else. Also liquid drone has explained why this is important given the prevalence of homosexual slurs in gaming culture. Try again. BS. Racial slurs are much more prelevant in gaming culture.
I'm at a loss as to why your statement (even if you can show it to be true, which I find doubtful) makes what I just said bullshit. Both are issues so why can't tl address one?
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I'm a trans, otherkin, half demon so this banner really hits me right in the feeluns. LGBTOMGWTFBBQ for lyf.
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About gaming:
So why dont they adress the other (issue)? It has been a year since last action, and i havent noticed any stand against racism in gaming. Perhaps, i have missed some, in that case please point me to it.
About broader picture:
I am sorry if i sound harsh but right now it looks to me that people in TL care more about LGBT than they care about genocide in palestine or war in Ukraine/Syria/Iraq . Which is fucking sad, because i love this site. People are dying right now. beacuse they are shiia, or beacuse they happen to live in palastine/Eastern Ukraine.
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On July 30 2014 16:04 Silvanel wrote:
About gaming:
So why dont they adress the other (issue)? It has been a year since last action, and i havent noticed any stand against racism in gaming. Perhaps, i have missed some, in that case please point me to it.
About broader picture:
I am sorry if i sound harsh but right now it looks to me that people in TL care more about LGBT than they care about genocide in palestine or war in Ukraine/Syria/Iraq . Which is fucking sad, because i love this site. People are dying right now. beacuse they are shiia, or beacuse they happen to live in palastine/Eastern Ukraine.
But it's an arbitrary thing to require that tl must try to address all problems in gaming at the same time, or do nothing. It's also absurdly impractical since it will mean that no one can try solving anything unless they have the answers for all problems.
The same applies to other issues in the world. If you read the first post you'd readily see thay the rainbow horse is obviously not intended to take away the importance of world issues. And it's also plainly absurd to suggest that taking a stand on lgbtq issues means we don't care about Syria or Ukraine. If you apply that argument fully then nearly every conversation on this forum (on balance in sc2, death of e sports, end of IM...) would also be "disrespectful" of those suffering in Syria.
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I will not continue this disscussion, beacuse that would lead to me eventually being banned. I just want to state that i am not happy with this "policy" for reasons stated above.
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Well, if that's all you can say, those are rather awful reasons. I am also not struck by much confidence in any further argument you might have since you apparently can't make them without getting banned.
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United States23455 Posts
On July 30 2014 16:20 Silvanel wrote:
I will not continue this disscussion, beacuse that would lead to me eventually being banned. I just want to state that i am not happy with this "policy" for reasons stated above.
First of all, why do you assume you'll be banned for making an argument? Unless you think you'll sink into some hateful rant that probably won't happen.
Second, "I want to state that I am not happy and refer to the statements I already made about how I'm not happy" seems like a pointless post.
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On July 30 2014 15:45 Kleinmuuhg wrote:
So what I was expecting was a thread full of (maybe slightly over-the-top) praise for a nice gesture. I am so confused and baffled by some of these responses, I really am.
Actually this is kinda the way the thread went last year. Be thankful it hasn't turned into a religion debate...
I don't know why the banner was changed again this year, is this the only thing the banner will be changed for? We could have had a 4th July banner, or something with national holidays in France, Germany, Sweden ect. This just seems stale and repetitive, there are many other people on this forum that would feel nice if they got some attention.
And no, nobody is saying LGBT problems in the world are solved. It's just that stuff like abortion, religion, gay whatever debates are things that generally people go into with their opinions already formed. I can see the logic behind doing it once last year, hey its just TL showing their political stance on a subject so now we know. I don't see what the point of putting it up again this year. What exactly does it do that makes it more important than other possible banners?
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Lol, my brother asked me why i am browsing a gay website after seeing the rainbow horse and reading "Team Liquid". (He doesnt know the site and isnt into esports).
At least the banner produces a few laughs i guess.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On July 30 2014 11:39 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +Nobody knows that you like to punch your gf when you have sex with her (or whatever your thing is, no judgement from me!), so it's not part of your identity. Is it really? As with many other kinksters I remember having fantasies since a rather young age (12-14) and as with many others I could not imagine having a kink-free relationship. If you look around for a bit you find dozens of stories about people who have been married for 10+ years in vanilla relationships, people who have tried to adjust to the "sexual norm" and people who are genuinely suffering under the feeling that they are completely abnormal and disgusting. It's eerily similar to LGBT stories, is it not?
As a gay kinkster, I can tell you that one dwarfs the other in terms of identity and importance. I don't really want to bleat about being gay because I'm not really that afflicted at all. In fact precisely *because* I'm not particularly afflicted by my sexuality, yet it still has the impact it does, speaks to its importance.
The kink/sexual orientation comparison is really out of place.
edit:
On July 30 2014 12:07 levelping wrote:
To put it plainly, kink and homosexuals are different things. Yes there are common issues but to suggest that your sexual fetishism is on the same order as sexual orientation is just not intellectually honest. You're not applying your mind to the degree to which kink and orientation feature in people's lives. And further it's a false comparison between public violent sex and homosexuality. Pride Parades aren't all about sex in public it's a celebration about being gay, which as we have taken pains to point out, is much more than anal sex.
Look, just because the kink community does things one way does not mean that it's the best way for all minorities. I've no idea why you seem to think that the gay community should follow the kink model as well. How about you guys do your thing and the gays do their thing. Heck if you want your consensual rape parade go ahead. If you never wanted one in the first place then why complain about pride parades?
Finally as to the rainbow horse I'd really suggest that you let those who are more connected to the issue decide on whether it's meaningful. From your posts it seems that you're not lgbtq and so probably aren't in the best position to say whether the rainbow horse is good or not. In addition, the need for you to limit all your arguments to countries with very liberal gay laws already suggests that you concede that this could well be a meaningful gesture to the rest of the world who aren't from Germany and Scandinavia.
On a personal note I find it rather annoying that you're commenting on the usefulness of a gesture which does not really affect you, and holding teamliquid to your own arbitrary standard of what would be "appropriate action". This sort of sentiment seems to me to be implicitly dismissive of actual lgbtq people who do have a very real stake in this issue. I mean if we accept what you're saying completely we would have to remove the rainbow horse (assuming we aren't going to do more) despite the fact that many members both lgbtq and straight find meaningful. Empathy man. Have some.
This is a top post, as was one or two others I saw from this user in this thread.
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Nice gesture. Keep doing your thing TL
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On July 30 2014 15:35 hfglgg wrote:
good to know that our religious fanatic r.evo is back to continue his crusade against the evil gays he started last year.
Please quote me being a religious fanatic or crusading against evil gays. Unless throwing out baseless insults is your thing.
On July 30 2014 13:03 levelping wrote:Finally what you are proposing is that tl either so it all or nothing. This is first a false dichotomy that arises from a purely arbitrary standard you have created.
It's a standard I have observed from this website in basically anything it has done over the last 10 years. I simply can't remember any similar occasion on which a thing got so few actual content while at the same time being close to it's core values. Can you?
Second, I think this thread and the fact that not all tl readers come fromm the countries of Germany and Scandinavia (another artifical restriction you rely on to make your arguments work - if we are talking about the world it is pretty obvious that the kink community is able to legally get married, have children etc everywhere but homosexuals aren't able to, entirely negating your concern that what happens between consensual adults should receive the same rights (which as a matter of fact they don't), and leaving your argument with no legs to stand on) readily demonstrate that contrary to your expectations many do find this a meaningful and good expression of support.
I have mentioned kink specifically as something that gets treated worse than e.g. homosexuality by professionals (e.g. therapists) and I have mentioned polyamory relationships specifically as something that gets treated worse than homosexuality when it comes to legal rights and obligations. For example there is no available legal concept for a FFM or MMF triade (nor MMM nor FFF) in Germany that is equivalent to what we have as registered life partnerships (which are essentially the same as a marriage for a hetero- or homosexual couple that doesn't want to / can't get married).
Your notion that we should take this whole thing down without coverage of Amsterdam Pride is pretty disrespectful of everyone else's (many of whom might, unlike yourself, actually be lgbtq and so have a personal stake in this) view of this being quite meaningful.
As stated before I genuinely don't care which topic or which organization, a mere optical change with zero additional content is the lowest possible form of "support" one can offer. That in combination of it coming from an organization and being supported by a community that prides itself with high quality content and actually giving a fuck is what annoys me. It just so happened to be a rainbow horse, I'd make the exact same statement if TL would just change its logo for some kink event or in support of Euromaidan.
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Next time make a poll about it, not everyone supports these people and communities.
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On July 30 2014 23:31 Itachii wrote:
Next time make a poll about it, not everyone supports these people and communities.
Why make a poll? Its not strictly speaking our website.
The people who run it can do what they want.
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At r.evo:
1) Seeing as we have had a gay kinkster (who would be best able to shed light on this) address us on how bad the comparison between being gay and being a kinkster is, I really feel like you're grasping at straws at this point. So to summarily just deal with your comparison to polygamy:
- Polygamy discrimination is suffered by a small portion of the kink community. Gay discrimination is suffered by the entire gay community. Bad comparison.
- Even if you were making a point about polygamy specifically and not kink (thereby I suppose conceding all your prior arguments on kink), no one is stopping you from doing a polygamy parade. Just because you don't do it doesn't mean gays should not have their parades. Again, bad comparison.
2) Regarding your "all or nothing" standard which you observed from Teamliquid across the years, this is first demonstrably false. Teamliquid staff have to do many things at the same time, and so they have to priorities their resources to do what they consider necessary. An easy example is how Teamliquid obviously cannot have write ups for ALL starcraft events, and so various smaller tournaments have to be overlooked for coverage on the big ones. If possible, the smaller tournaments might get a small mention, or a live thread, or being on the featured streams. This isn't full coverage, but it's pretty neat and some nice (albeit limited) publicity for these smaller events. This is starcraft by the way, the entire purpose why this site exists, and so I cannot think of something which is more close to the site's core values.
Now even if what you say is true, and that Teamliquid is this amazing all or nothing place, why can't Teamliquid do this particular initiative to a limited extent? Where is the rule that says "all or nothing, for everything?". Furthermore, Teamliquid isn't a gay site, so why would you think that celebrating gay pride is central to the core values of a video game site? As per the OP, this isn't supposed to be some expansion of TL's core values to cover gay issues, but a small show of support for our LGBTQ gamers.
So your point on this is really not factual, and even if it were, does not preclude TL acting in a limited way for this particular project.
3) I think you're firstly missing the point. We're in a thread where various LGBTQ people have come out to say they find the rainbow horse meaningful. Straight people have said the same. You on the other seem to think that it's all meaningless and it should be taken down if we're just changing some colours. I hope you can see that your strident insistence on how meaningless this is is taking a huge dump on everyone else's views on the matter. Other people, gay people (you know, the people we are actually showing support for) find it meaningful. Yet you, who have no personal interest in this (since you say you don't care which topic or organisation is featured), are coming out to say that all the gay people are wrong, and that this is really meaningless.
That's just ridiculously disrespectful. It's as if we changed the horse to an Islamic crescent to show solidarity with the people in Gaza, and some Palestinian posters come and say hey, thanks TL it means a lot. Yet you, with all your privileges and rights from living in a first world economy with no war and no need to worry about getting blown to bits, you think it necessary to coming along and say "a mere optical change with zero additional content is the lowest possible form of "support" one can offer, and that it annoys you". How about you let the people to whom the support is intended decide?
(pre-emptively, Gaza is just an example, and so if you want to take issue with the example and not the principle behind it, I'm not really keen on engaging you further on the example)
TL also gives a fuck btw. This is far from a token change of colour - this is just a more visible part of TL's very inclusive policy on our community, which includes the strict moderation on homophobic comments. It's rather short sighted of you to suggest that all TL does is change the colour of the horse once a year.
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r.Evo
Didn't want to quote all that.
The logo change has been enough to inspire a 7 page thread that's still near the top of the page. This thread allows people to discuss the issue and show their support or otherwise.
TL generally doesn't offer support to causes too much, because it would become something its not. Its still a gaming website/forum.
A small gesture is fine IMO.
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On July 30 2014 23:31 Itachii wrote:
Next time make a poll about it, not everyone supports these people and communities.
Their house, their rules. They don't need your or our opinion on anything. Better get over it.
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Norway28665 Posts
but r.Evo, it actually is somewhat of a numbers game here.. if you wanna make the argument that for each individual polyamorist or kinkster, lack of societal acceptance is just as much or a bigger problem than it is for gays, then I'm like, ok, maybe, I have no way of really evaluating that. But for this hypothetical, we can agree that that is the case.
Then how come there's no major kinkster or polyamorist movement? How come they're not visibly fighting for their rights? I'm lead to believe that there are two possible reasons, possibly a third I guess ; 1: kinksters/polyamorists are (very) few in number compared to homosexuals. 2: kinksters/polyamorists aren't, on average, that troubled by the lack of societal acceptance because they still find someone to be with, like for example you mentioned that there are self-organized groups. There's a possible 3; in that kinksters and polyamorists consider themselves /are considered more deviant than homosexuals do/are and that they have a much harder time finding people to talk about it, but if this is the case I'd expect it to be connected with the first point..
Basically, you're bringing up sexual minorities that which I've hardly even thought about the existence of or problems pertaining to, as a parallel to homosexuality- a group that comprises between 5 and 10% of our population and which has been persecuted in ways ranging from death to castration to simply being social outcasts. It's just not a good comparison.
Also, one important tidbit, because I see people bringing up stuff like Euromaidan or Palestine. Our staff comes from a very diverse background, and we are not politically aligned. Look at the Gaza thread, or whatever other discussion about that topic. Shit gets heated. I'm normally a very calm and level-headed individual, at least in my own eyes, but I can't discuss Palestine/Israel without becoming angry. For us, with our background, to possibly agree on any type of statement or whatever on this issue? Not a chance. And that basically goes for most issues. Except homosexuality; we can all agree that discrimination of homosexuals continues to be a major issue and one that is particularly relevant to our demographic.
I agree entirely that starving africans, the situation in Syria Gaza Sudan whatever other hotspot you wanna talk about, these are all bigger global issues than the situation for homosexual teenagers and young adults in the more developed and educated regions of the world. But only the latter group is actually here, and they are continuing to state their happiness about our gesture. I don't understand why you insist on saying that our gesture is completely meaningless when homosexuals within our community are saying that they appreciate it. This should have proven to you by now that the gesture does hold meaning and that people care.
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On July 30 2014 23:31 Itachii wrote:
Next time make a poll about it, not everyone supports these people and communities.
Nah, you're all set. Plus this is TL. They own this house and do what they want. If you don't like it, you can, well, I guess complaint about it in this thread.
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Happy to see this at TL - thanks guys, it means a lot.
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A nice, albeit small gesture from TL. To those saying there are bigger issues and TL is wasting its time: changing the banner probably took them all of five minutes, whereas the arguments in this thread about "bigger issues" have wasted much more time with no seeming change in anyone's opinion. You are free to spend your time arguing against whatever you want, but please don't claim you are doing so on the basis of "bigger issues". If you really believed that, you wouldn't be in here changing literally no one's mind, you'd be in or creating other threads with this amazing content you want about the issues you really do care about.
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On July 30 2014 23:52 Liquid`Drone wrote:
but r.Evo, it actually is somewhat of a numbers game here.. if you wanna make the argument that for each individual polyamorist or kinkster, lack of societal acceptance is just as much or a bigger problem than it is for gays, then I'm like, ok, maybe, I have no way of really evaluating that. But for this hypothetical, we can agree that that is the case.
I don't particularly agree with r.Evo's points but what you and other people are saying is that we should only care about minorities if they are big enough, and I think that is hypocritical.
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Norway28665 Posts
No, that is not at all what I am saying. I'm saying that we aren't in the habit of changing our banner or officially endorsing a particular policy all that often. When we do, it has to be something significant. I think acceptance of LGBTQ is an important enough issue and one that hits our core demographic, one which continues to be relevant, a fight that is not won yet, to warrant us making a public gesture. It doesn't mean I don't care about other issues or groups or minorities, it just means that I think this one is the most important out of the ones we can reasonably be expected to support.
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I'm glad TL is doing this. Good job guys.
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IT is ok for the ignorant to be gay coz it is out of my control
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Netherlands6142 Posts
On July 29 2014 23:56 zdfgucker wrote:
Online activism is laughable at best and sad at worst. By looking at a shiny banner you change pretty much nothing. If anybody cared enough, they'd be protesting in the streets.
I blocked the whole banner, I don't want politics on TL, sorry.
On July 30 2014 15:39 Silvanel wrote:
Off all the issues of the modern world You choose to make a stand on this on? Hunger, genocides, wars, pollution, tortures, illegal occupations, diseases and much more....And yet the one thing that TL makes political stand on is LGBT.This is weird.
I'd like to attempt a response at zdf's post, and I think it might cover some of Silvanel's concerns as well.
Changing the banner for TL is a big thing, or at least not the kind of thing we'd do on a whim. What Google does is nice, practically some few changes every week, but a bit too gimmicky for us. Why I think we're comfortable with this particular banner is that, while on one hand I feel it's (still) a pressing issue, it's also deals with a war of ideas (war may be too big a term, go "struggle" if you will). That is to say, what's at hand here is a way in which people think about an issue. Conversely, I wouldn't be happy to advertise, say, cancer treatment or prevention. While cancer sucks etc, I don't want TL to be a site that asks you for money or donations. In that same vein we wouldn't even ask you for any action, like an online vote, or even a Facebook Like, on behalf of some charity or similar. With discrimination though, it's really about the way people think about things. The banner may instigate people to maybe reconsider their convictions or open up a conversation.
While I suspect online activism can be useful as far as starting a debate goes, I can assure you that if I'd go out in my hometown or Trondheim to protest in the streets, it would be quite laughable and/or sad indeed. I find it really, really weird that as an alternative to communicating a message to people, you don't suggest donations, collecting autographs, or running for office, but, instead, communicating the message more loudly. I mean, I'll consider the option but I'm afraid that IRL I wouldn't be able to reply to people as aptly and admirably as Drone <3
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On July 30 2014 23:52 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Then how come there's no major kinkster or polyamorist movement? How come they're not visibly fighting for their rights? I'm lead to believe that there are two possible reasons, possibly a third I guess ; 1: kinksters/polyamorists are (very) few in number compared to homosexuals. 2: kinksters/polyamorists aren't, on average, that troubled by the lack of societal acceptance because they still find someone to be with, like for example you mentioned that there are self-organized groups. There's a possible 3; in that kinksters and polyamorists consider themselves /are considered more deviant than homosexuals do/are and that they have a much harder time finding people to talk about it, but if this is the case I'd expect it to be connected with the first point..
Basically, you're bringing up sexual minorities that which I've hardly even thought about the existence of or problems pertaining to, as a parallel to homosexuality- a group that comprises between 5 and 10% of our population and which has been persecuted in ways ranging from death to castration to simply being social outcasts. It's just not a good comparison
That's actually an awesome question (sorry, wall of text seems appropriate and you seem to actually care <3). Just to pick a random thing in terms of size /r/ainbow and /r/BDSMcommunity have the same amount of subscribers at 30k with /r/polyamory/ sitting at a mere 20k and /r/lgbt sitting at 90k in comparison. Something interesting I just noticed clicking around their respective frontpages is that both /r/lgbt (the worst out of all imo, most likely due to size) and /r/rainbow seem a lot more... aggressive in the content being discussed whereas the BDSM and poly subreddit seem to be more about individuals asking stuff and trying to receive help from the community. (I'm keeping out /r/bdsm since it tends to be more... pornographic in nature.)
I think the main reasons you don't see big movements from the respective groups is in terms of kinksters they are mostly covered legally (and/or know learned how to cover their asses via e.g. actual contracts) and the places where they are discriminated are treated as avoidable. e.g. if you see a user talking about how their therapist tries to treat their in his eyes abusive relationship the general consent isn't among the lines of "WHAT A BIGOT LETS DO SOMETHING" but more among the line of "Dude sucks, find someone else, here's a list of kink-aware therapists:" - it tends to be more quiet in direct comparison.
You also need to keep in mind what kind of an effect professionals not treating everyone equally has on the people involved. The DSM-IV (not changed since 1994 on this issue) talks about BDSM as a paraphilia like this: "The fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors" must "cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning" while e.g. the ICD-10 defines Sexual masochism as "A disorder characterized by recurrent sexual urges, fantasies, or behaviors involving the act (real, not simulated) of being humiliated, beaten, bound, or otherwise made to suffer." - Basically as a whole, medically, we're still at the start of professionals differentiating between sexually motivated, consensual SM and SM motivated by cruelty and anger.
With all that in mind I'd say the approach of the majority of the SM community is a lot more resigned compared to e.g. the LGBT movement. I'd argue that for example the stereotypical man in a position of power (example obviously translates to other forms of kink) that enjoys being dominated in the bedroom simply doesn't want it to become public knowledge because he's afraid of the repercussions it would have on his professional life and to a certain degree has accepted that his desires are "abnormal" and/or "sick" since he can't even be backed up by medical professionals. So now you suddenly have a scene where quite a lot of members are afraid of public reactions to their kink which in return means that they consider "outing" themselves as a potential danger to their daily lives.
All that combined makes for a comparatively "private" scene with parties being behind closed doors to protect identities and the youth movement being as vanilla as possibly (e.g. meetups in public cafés or restaurants) that is happier if no one in their daily lives finds out about anything (again, because of fear of social repercussions). Instead of fighting for more acceptance within the general public there is more a general acceptance of it being normal to not be accepted for their sexuality within the groups I've witnessed.
Imo by far the biggest issue in this area is medical professionals not having a clear united stance. Not being able to say "this is okay, this is a sickness" apart from the more extreme cases makes it very hard to deal with it for quite a lot of individuals. As you can imagine the question for a young kinkster of whether he or she is a sick individual that needs to be treated or if they just have specific sexual preferences can be kind of rough. The question "How will my environment react if I'm honest about this?" comes second to "Am I a normal functioning being when I'm honest to myself or do I need psychological treatment?"
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As for polyamory I think the question gets a lot harder. I have honestly no clue about straight up numbers and I don't think anyone ever cared to count. On top of that polyamory as a general concept is literally all over the fucking place in terms of the forms it can have and on top of it most forms aren't socially accepted in any shape whatsoever.
This FAQ gives a solid first insight into the topic. It seems to be really hard to get all the various groups under one hood and it doesn't really help that basically all victories the LGBT community achieved are aimed to allow homosexual couples similar rights to heterosexual couples. On top of that it's not exactly rare that anti-gay lobbies use it as form of slippery slope argument ("If we let gay couples marry, what's next? Polygamy?") and similar to the kink examples above mostly sexual relationships tend to be kept in private and behind closed doors (things like swinging or wife-swapping aren't exactly what you want your boss to hear about because of the social images it has).
So basically the people who are mostly into the sexual component are in the clear, people who'd like to pursue MFF-type of relationships get picked on by feminists and people who'd like to pursue FMM-type of relationships aren't seen as exactly glorious. So even if we assume that at least half the amount of people who are LGBT are into some form of polyamory (let's just grab a random example) aka 5% the amount of people that would like to pursue an even relationship that is close to a traditional one except for more people is pretty damn small. Like, just check the FAQ I linked and compare how many other variants are there except for geometric arrangements which is the only portion that genuinely cares about equal rights in this regard.
However, and this might be one of the most important points with regards to poly, I do believe it's socially so unaccepted that even people who would love to be poly have no clue what it is or that it exists and that there are other people who are alright with it. Let's say a dude (or girl) is in a relationship and tells you he'd love to have fun with someone else. One of the very, very last things that comes to mind is: "Hey, have you thought about being naturally inclined to have consensual relationships with multiple people at the same time?"
We'd rather shame any form of a non-couple relationship, call women who let their husbands have sex with women weak (and the other way around) and think of swinging as something nasty that normal people don't do. I just think the idea of someone consensually sharing his partner in any shape or form is too far out there for most people to be considered, even when actually appropriate.
Basically the point I'm making is: "If you would have asked 10 (20, 30) years ago, how many people would self-identify as LGBT compared to today?" - I'm assuming there would (and will!) be a similar shift when it comes to identifying as poly in the future. It's not that suddenly more people became gay, it's just that they learned more about it, it became more accepted and it resulted in them self-reporting more as such.
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(Small nitpick, where is the 5-10% number from? I tried finding numbers through various years and the first I found was this one talking about 3.4% of the American population self-identifying as LGBT. The Wiki article on the subject is also all over the place. Why the hell does e.g. the UK claim 6% of the population in 2005 and 1.1% (!!) self-reporting as gay in 2011? This graphic reporting around ~3% of the younger population self-identifying as LGB is the most modern study result I can find there (2012).)
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The amount of walls of text in this thread are too damn high.
I'd just like to add that at least I learned something new in this thread. Didn't even know that there was a sexual movement called kink and that I am in something called a vanilla relationship. Very interesting.
Reading about gay rights is sooo fucking boring, the same things are talked about over and over and over... Thanks r.evo, your posts in this thread raised more awareness than the lgbt banner.
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Seriously zeo, what is up with your post, you criticize the walls of text, only to praise the longest posts, in a thread you claim to find boring but keep revisiting. Then to top it off you claim learning some new vocabulary is somehow "raising awareness", and that it has more of an impact than the banner, which by the way is the only reason this thread exists for you to post in. I'm not sure your statements could be any more conflicting.
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Meh, it is boring. There are very few things I can read about gay rights that I haven't heard before. Hearing anything about kink is new, so of course it raises awareness. I don't understand your post?
edit: guess the point I was trying to make was that I highly doubt someone is more 'aware' about gay rights after seeing the banner. There have been a million threads about this, it has been discussed a million times. People should already be 'aware' about this subject and have formed their own opinion on it (at least on TL). Those that ignored the million threads will ignore this too.
edit2: to answer mainerd below. My apologies to anyone who thought that I said they were wasting my time. I actually wrote a really long answer to this post but erased it. This forum is a way for people to express their opinions about subjects they are passionate about, its just that in abortion/religion/gay rights threads you know what the thread will be like from the thread title. It gets repetitive. All I'm saying.
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I guess I just have a problem understanding you when your statements are so conflicted. I read your earlier post in the thread and you articulated your thoughts much more clearly. Your second post comes off as you saying this has been a big waste of time for you, and that it's boring. Why you would come back to the thread to let everyone know it is so boring to you is beyond me.
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Norway28665 Posts
thanks for the in depth reply. It's interesting for sure and I accept your analysis, but it still doesn't convince me in any way that the kinkster or polyamory movement deserve support or recognition in the way homosexuals do (in fact you said it yourself - many kinksters don't want to identify as one. )
I mean I get that more openness and acceptance of all forms of consensual sex or relationship forming is a great cause. I totally support that. I wish I had been more conscious about my own sexual urges at a younger age, cuz I'd have had a lot more fun sex by now then. And I get how it'd be cool for the business-alpha male to be able to admit that he likes being dominated sexually without people thinking less of him in any way.. But certainly you see how it's much less of a problem that someone can't talk publicly about his sexual desires, in the event that he still gets an avenue to pursue them, than not being able to live with the person you love period? I mean gays often manage to have gay sex even in countries where it's forbidden and not accepted, it's everything else that fails. And I mean even if the sex doesn't give you fulfillment, I assume as a kinkster you can still have feelings of being in love with a girl who doesn't have the same urges?
Also with the numbers I dunno where I got the 5-10% figure, I kinda assumed it was somewhere between those two numbers, if on the low end, and it seems to vary so wildly based on study and possibly criteria (how bisexual do you have to be to be bisexual? I've made out with lots of men, would never qualify any of them as a homosexual experience.) that I didn't see the need to be specific, but yea the 10% seems quite exaggerated.
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This is good. Although there might be some negative responses, equal rights is a universal idea that still deserves every bit of attention that it gets.
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On July 31 2014 04:37 Liquid`Drone wrote:
thanks for the in depth reply. It's interesting for sure and I accept your analysis, but it still doesn't convince me in any way that the kinkster or polyamory movement deserve support or recognition in the way homosexuals do (in fact you said it yourself - many kinksters don't want to identify as one. )
I think that becomes thin ice really, really quickly and things start biting their own tail. Do people not want to identify as such because it's part of their nature or because they're afraid of social repercussions? Just like homosexuals would identify as such a lot less the more you go back in time the goal should be that no one has to be vary of getting screwed over due to his sexuality.
As it stands the point that's really hard to debate is that (in the west) someone who wants to enjoy a polyamourous relationship he has less legal backing (or rather: none) than a homosexual couple in most places and someone who is into various forms of s/m or d/s has on average less medical backing than a homosexual. I think it's safe to say that we overall stopped trying to "cure" people of their homosexuality, we're still trying to cure people who are into certain kinks. Or rather, some professionals think we should try and cure them while others aren't so sure resulting in lots and lots of confusion among everyone involved.
Those things alone are very scary things to stand and what brought me to "the LGBT movement is more 'there' than those for example" in the first place.
I mean I get that more openness and acceptance of all forms of consensual sex or relationship forming is a great cause. I totally support that. I wish I had been more conscious about my own sexual urges at a younger age, cuz I'd have had a lot more fun sex by now then. And I get how it'd be cool for the business-alpha male to be able to admit that he likes being dominated sexually without people thinking less of him in any way.. But certainly you see how it's much less of a problem that someone can't talk publicly about his sexual desires, in the event that he still gets an avenue to pursue them, than not being able to live with the person you love period? I mean gays often manage to have gay sex even in countries where it's forbidden and not accepted, it's everything else that fails. And I mean even if the sex doesn't give you fulfillment, I assume as a kinkster you can still have feelings of being in love with a girl who doesn't have the same urges?
See, that's the issue; you can't answer that question universally. From the couple of cases I know where those things collide people get into pretty strong emotional problems which, from what I understand, aren't very far from a homosexual man being married to a woman and having kids. We're talking being married for 10-20 years, having kids, never really enjoying your sexlife and then stumbling upon a party that opens someones eyes. Sure those people can and do lead "normal" lives (just like a homosexual in a heterosexual relationship can) but simply being completely unattracted to your partner in the bedroom while believing it must be your own issue or your own sickness isn't exactly pretty.
Where we can probably find rather simple definitions for a hetero- or homosexual couple that can say whether or not someone is satisfied with their rights and privileges or not it becomes really hard for certain kinks and questions soon become too ugly for the public (or politicians for that matter) to deal with.
Is it okay to have fantasies about rape? (Legally, sure. Is it morally? Should it be treated? How to we differentiate between a potential criminal and someone with a mere sexual interest?)
Is it okay to engage in consensual roleplay that imitates rape?
Is it okay to fantasize about being physically hurt during intercourse or fantasizing about physically hurting someone? (How much physical violence for both sides needs to be considered "too much" and requires treatment?)
Should we embrace (or treat) someone for wanting to be sexually humiliated? Is it okay if that's the only way someone can satisfy himself sexually?
Should we talk about things like this:
45.8% of men in a 1980 study reported fantasizing during heterosexual intercourse about "a scene where [they had] the impression of being raped by a woman" (3.2% often and 42.6% sometimes), 44.7% of scenes where a seduced woman "pretends resisting" and 33% of raping a woman.
A study of college-age women found over half had engaged in fantasies of rape or coercion which, another study claims, are within the normal range of female sexuality. (1998)
What should we tell a teenager who asks questions about those things? Should we encourage youth to ask questions about these things if they have certain urges in the first place? Is it okay to tell someone that loving your own gender is just as okay as engaging in fantasies with a partner that consents to engaging in them? Should we have talks in school that encourage safe, sane and consensual no matter the practice?
This territory gets incredibly ugly for your average politician or polite family conversation very fast.
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At zeo:
Except this goes beyond just raising awareness and is also a show of support for our gay community members (see op). Many people appreciate that support (see thread generally).
At r.evo:
While thia new general discussion on the issues faced by kink communities is great, especially for those who are new to the area, the comparisons you are trying to draw to the lgbtq community are still nebulous at best. I think it's great that you're obviously very passionate about the kink lifestyle, but why would this have a bearing on the desirability/effectiveness odour rainbow horse?
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On July 31 2014 09:17 levelping wrote:
At zeo:
Except this goes beyond just raising awareness and is also a show of support for our gay community members (see op). Many people appreciate that support (see thread generally).
At r.evo:
While thia new general discussion on the issues faced by kink communities is great, especially for those who are new to the area, the comparisons you are trying to draw to the lgbtq community are still nebulous at best. I think it's great that you're obviously very passionate about the kink lifestyle, but why would this have a bearing on the desirability/effectiveness odour rainbow horse?
On a personal level, I wouldn't care if the rainbow banner was the only thing that TL did the entire year. They chose a cause to support, and they can choose to support whatever they want.
However, I can see the point of view of annoyance at communities like TL just jump on the rainbow bandwagon to show off their support for a cause that's gone mainstream. And from the LGBTQ community's perspective, that's entirely what they wanted, to raise enough hell and make it a "thing" that the world would latch onto.
Which, unfortunately, creates a terrible precedent for other minority groups that are under acknowledged and unrepresented. Yeah, it's great that gay rights are being supported by a lot of people. But where does that leave, say...people who are Asexual, or want polyamorous relationships (for non-cultist/sexist reasons)? Not much further than they were before, since people only seem to educate themselves as far as the "mainstream agenda" is being pushed.
And Liquid'Drone's posts basically sum up the situation fairly well. Gay rights is a movement that's popular enough to be noticed and understood, but everything else is still open for quick dismissal because people haven't raised a big enough stink yet.
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On July 31 2014 09:17 levelping wrote:
While thia new general discussion on the issues faced by kink communities is great, especially for those who are new to the area, the comparisons you are trying to draw to the lgbtq community are still nebulous at best. I think it's great that you're obviously very passionate about the kink lifestyle, but why would this have a bearing on the desirability/effectiveness odour rainbow horse?
In addition to what wolf put much more eloquent than I could here's the deal:
Believe it or not, I actually don't consider myself passionate about some form of kink lifestyle on a personal level. Personally I'm pretty much in the boat of "No one is ripping me apart for it, I can find people to do things with and I'm lucky enough to make money in ways that can't be influenced by public opinion" and on top of that I'm lucky to not be into almost anything that is generally considered "extreme". But I can also see unfair treatment and can speak up when I see people spouting uninformed stuff. It annoys the ever-fucking-crap out of me when someone who identifies as a minority (which should make the person more tolerant and accepting, not less) accuses me of being disrespectful while he gives zero shit about the content I'm presenting.
Wanna know what I'm talking about?
Things like 24/7 relationships have probably a stronger feature in people's lives than any possible "regular" hetero or homosexual relationships.
This, as a very blanket statement, implies that a "24/7 relationship" (whatever that is and whoever can have that) has a stronger impact on the daily lives than any "normal" hetero- or homosexual relationship. Even if you have zero clue what this is talking about it is very clearly something not related to who you're attracted to.
This is the response I got (which is quite in line with things I've heard from the LGBT community before):
Even accepting what you say about some kink relationships being 24/7 (though I fail to see how they will feature stronger than regular homosexual lifestyles since homosexuals also happen to be homosexual 24/7) the above point would apply. That said while I can accept that in some very dedicated dom/sub relationships the kink lifestyle would be immensely pervasive, this small number of cases cannot compare to being gay wherein any relationship would be 24/7 homosexual, to use your terminology. The comparison remains disingenuous.
Which is saying "A 24/7 relationship in the context of BDSM is the same as a homosexual relationship because a person is homosexual 24/7 and therefor the same as any relationship between 2 people since a hetero couple is also 24/7 hetero." which shows that you've put zero thought into what I tried to convey, zero effort into even googling what I'm talking about and you just turned an issue that is NOT about sexuality into one just because... why not. All while still pretending to know exactly what you're talking about because otherwise the whole thing would fall apart.
Here is an actual definition (note how it does NOT include sexuality):
A 24/7 D/s (or M/s) relationship is based on total power exchange. This is when one person surrenders total control to another for an indefinite period of time. In a relationship like this the power exchange is super-imposed over the other roles that these people may assume; such as parent or spouse. One person is always dominant and the other is always submissive to them. Sometimes also referred to as Lifestyle D/s.
Now how the hell was the original statement that such a relationship has most likely a stronger feature in people's lives than a "regular" hetero- or homosexual relationship inaccurate in any shape or form? We're literally talking about modern, consensual slavery here. It's about one person telling the other what to wear, when to orgasm and how to socially interact with others.
It's an uninformed, disrespectful and hypocritical comment that turned a statement that wasn't about sexuality into one just to claim some sense of moral superiority. That kind of shit isn't okay at all, especially from someone who tries to lecture about respect, tolerance and empathy.
But, hey, it's just about "sexual fetishism" and about me "not applying my mind to the degree to which kink and orientation feature in people's lives.", isn't it?
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Nice gesture!
I need this Tidehunter TL Arcana :p
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I like that banner, the horse looks great with those colours. It should actually stay like this!
And it's a nice gesture too. Good on you TL!
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I like how these sort of initiatives always validate their own necessity by the reactions of the ignorant and vile that invariably show up to demonstrate just how "tolerant" people are. The ones that get all uppity and refer to equality and basic human rights for everyone as "politics" are my favourites. That's not politics darling, that's decency.
I don't see how a romantic and/or sexual relationship of any form between 2 or more consenting adults, or even between minors of a similar age, impacts me or anyone else in a negative way.
Good job Team Liquid! See you in Amsterdam.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On July 31 2014 19:14 WGT-Baal wrote:
I like that banner, the horse looks great with those colours. It should actually stay like this!
It's been my desktop background at work since last year ^^
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r.Evo posts raised an issue i never ever thought about. Its always nice to learn something new. I dont know how i feel about it yet.
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Sweden992 Posts
Who would ever expose themselves, in such an unsympathetic and embarrasing manner, as being unable put themselves in others' shoes or show understanding towards others by suggesting discrimination towards lgbt individuals hardly exists. I am sure a shunned transsexual feels much better because some heterosexual guy did his own little survey not noticing significant homophobia from the 60 year olds around him...
Anyway, I love the horse, and think it is super pretty too. It's the Pride week in Sweden now and there are a lot of rainbow flags displayed on balconies and hanging from windows. Noone pretends to change the world with a flag, but it is a fun way to partake in a celebration and show a little bit of support. It is no more complex than sharing a cake with someone having a birthday.
Of course, there will always be someone straining themselves in coming up with ridiculously convoluted reasonings to justify their own bigotry.
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@ r.Evo
I think you're being very disingenuous here:
1) My comment arose in the context of a conversation initiated by you when you invited a comparison between Kink relationships and homosexual ones. Right after your original comment about 24/7 relationships you go on to say "Why do you consider it any different if a man craves a relationship with another man or if a man craves a relationship with another women in which he isn't allowed to ever orgasm unless she allows him to?", thereby directly telling me that what you are talking about is no different from homosexual attraction. I notice you omitted this in your most recent post.
2) Accordingly, I'm not sure how I am the person that turn an issue that was not about sexuality into one, since you drew the comparison in the first place.
3) My argument also does not "fall apart" otherwise, because in the preceding paragraph (which you have also not quoted), I already set out my general point that the kink community can do whatever it wants, and is welcomed to do so; however there is no basis to suggest that the gay community ought to be held to the same standard.
4) When fetlife.com was first set up, I was one of the first users to sign up. That site has its problems, but being there for so long, I am well aware of the various sub cultures in kink. So I actually do know very well what a 24/7 relationship is, and I still don't see how that would feature in the same way as being homosexual. Homosexuality is something which you are every moment of your entire life, whereas 24/7 relationships are something you enter into as an adult. It can end. To look at it another way, a 24/7 relationship happens in the context of your sexuality. A homosexual man would not go into a 24/7 relationship with a woman, for fairly obvious reasons.
In any event, we have had a gay person who is into kink come out to just say that the two things simply do not compare. Unless you're suggesting that you, as a presumably straight male whom we now know is not "passionate about some form of kink lifestyle on a personal level", have a better insight into sexual orientation and kink, I don't see why we need to retread what marvellosity has helpfully settled a few posts ago.
5) Now, even if we were to ignore for a moment number 1 to 4 above, and you're right in that I'm a rude hypocrite, how does that have any bearing on whether TL should continue featuring the rainbow horse?
6) At this point I almost feel like you're being purposely obtuse and are just trying to get angry at something. not matter the relevance. Plus I've accorded you the decency, despite of your increasingly meandering arguments, of not resorting to calling your stuff "shit".
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Netherlands19135 Posts
Time to party it up at the pride this weekend. Boojah!
edit: I really hate the name "pride" for these things :/
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Northern Ireland25243 Posts
I like the gesture, hopefully in time the horse can be adorned with other colours to show solidarity with other groups too.
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On August 01 2014 23:05 levelping wrote:
6) At this point I almost feel like you're being purposely obtuse and are just trying to get angry at something. not matter the relevance. Plus I've accorded you the decency, despite of your increasingly meandering arguments, of not resorting to calling your stuff "shit".
I'm being angry because you're being hypocritical at best and malicious at worst. You talk about "decency" while calling things "disrespectful" / "nebulous" / "unfactual" / "intellectually unhonest" and worst of all you're presuming that someone's personal opinion is worth more because of their sexual orientation which is just as sexist as the opposite. Like what the hell. "A gay kinkster said your opinion on how much a role kink plays in someone's life is wrong so that point is invalid because as a hetero kinkster you can't know that as well as him." - No, he can't. Whether he's gay and I'm hetero that has zero impact on our abilities to judge how much of an impact something that can be applied to both hetero- or homosexuals can have on someones life. Your sexism in these issues shouldn't be acceptable to anyone just because it is pro-minority.
If I can draw a line between the influence kink has vs the influence of being hetero has on various people I know that is just as valid as if someone who is gay can say what the influence kink has on him vs the influence of him being gay. THAT is what equality means. Both statements are completely valid, in no way contradicting each other and can in combination only be used to make one single point: The influence sexual orientation and "sexual fetishism" has on a persons life can vary to the point of either being considered more important.
original quote:
Show nested quote +Seeing as we have had a gay kinkster (who would be best able to shed light on this) address us on how bad the comparison between being gay and being a kinkster is, I really feel like you're grasping at straws at this point.
My two main points I've explained repeatedly are:
1) That any and all relationships between consenting individuals (yes, plural) that are able to give consent should be treated the same. (Which is as fucking pro-equality, respectful and clear as possible.)
and 2) That there are minorities that are far worse off than homosexuals (with people into various kinks as a medical and people into polyamory as a legal example) in the western world which, assuming people actually care about equality (instead of just being pro-LGBTQ), needs more urgent attention. (Which are plain and simple observations that can be objectively quantified aka "factual" and not "nebulous".)
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at r.Evo:
This is becoming slightly tiresome.
I am puzzelled as to how you have reached the conlucsion that i'm hypocritical or malicious by preferring the view of marvellosity over yours. That has nothing to do with being discriminatory, it's simply chosing what i find the more persuasive view. As a gay kinkster, marvellosity would have the best sort of experience to offer a view on this. You on the other hand are straight, and supposedly not even personally passiontate about the kink lifetstyle. That notwithstanding, you are presuming to be able to authoratitevely speak on behalf of homosexuals who maybe into kink, whereas he is relating personal experience. You can of course be entited to your view, but equality does not demand that I accord it the same amount of authority, especially when all you have done is make bare assertions that homosexuality and kink are similar. I recognise my own limitations in understanding how kink and sexual orientation interact, and so when someone who has a personal expereicne of both speaks up, I think it eminiently reasonable to defer to his expereince over yours.
If those are your two main points, then I can put the first one to rest by saying that no one really disagrees with you. Please go advocate for equal rights for kinksters, with my blessings.
As for the second one, it is premised on a comparison between homosexuality and kink, which I (and some others) have tried to show you is a flawed comparison to make. In any event, even if you were compeltely correct and that kink communities are far worse off, this does not mean that TL should not put up its rainbow horse (i.e. the original thing you objected to before you meandered on to your general discussion now). Again, if kink is suffering as much as homosexuals, please go advocate for kink rights, with my blessings.
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On August 02 2014 16:51 r.Evo wrote:
and 2) That there are minorities that are far worse off than homosexuals (with people into various kinks as a medical and people into polyamory as a legal example) in the western world which, assuming people actually care about equality (instead of just being pro-LGBTQ), needs more urgent attention. (Which are plain and simple observations that can be objectively quantified aka "factual" and not "nebulous".)
While talking about minorities that are far worse off than homosexual people who need urgent attention from medical and legal aspects, you are forgetting about (or at least not mentioning) transgender people who also fall under LGBTQ, who in many places of the western world still face a lot of medical and legal challenges:
-many countries and states not having any laws protecting transsexual people from being fired for transitioning;
-many countries and states refusing to ever change one's sex on one's birth certificate and other legal documents;
-many countries and states that require one to have gone through SRS in order to change their legal documents, when SRS isn't something that everyone wants and/or can afford; and in best case scenario this delays having congruent documents with one's gender presentation by at least over 2 years, or way more if someone had to present as their identified gender for 1 year before starting hormones, couldn't get SRS at 2 years after starting hormones, and couldn't get their legal documents immediately changed after SRS; good luck walking around with incongruent legal documents for many years (though at least a better situation, even Sweden requires surgical castration before changing legal documents, which however makes SRS results worse later on);
-many countries and states not allowing someone to be prescribed hormone replacement therapy until having presented in public as their identified gender for 1 year, which is impossible for many people who can't pass as their identified gender prior to years on hormones, since they will be fired from work (due to the lack of the aforementioned laws against firing someone for transitioning) / not hired due to looking "in-between genders" (this is a further problem for genderqueer people who might indefinitely look "in-between genders"), and not being able to make any money for 1 year makes that unaffordable by many transsexual people;
-some medical staff refusing to treat transgender people.
Transgender rights are still way further behind gay rights, so there are still a lot of LGBTQ issues out there. Not to mention that a lot of people have absolutely no idea what it means to be a transsexual person, due to the horrible misrepresentations in mainstream media, etc. Like when I tell people that I'm a lesbian trans woman, they suddenly realise they have no idea whatsoever then, since they thought that "trans women" (quotation marks because they only knew some horribly offensive terms instead, about which many of them didn't even know were offensive terms) were just sexually deviant insane gay men who want to trick straight men into having sex with them. People need to be educated about gender dysphoria or else they will have no empathy (and they'll continue rather having fear, hate and disgust) towards a medical condition they completely misunderstand / don't accurately know anything at all about.
And even gay issues don't end with the legalization of gay marriage and adoption rights, since there will still be anti-gay protests, hate crimes (and it's enough to be the victim of 1 hate crime out of 3000 encounters with people), etc.
Thank you TL for the banner.
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so....is someone making this into a tidehunter cosmetic yet?
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On August 02 2014 19:12 Lynda wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2014 16:51 r.Evo wrote:
and 2) That there are minorities that are far worse off than homosexuals (with people into various kinks as a medical and people into polyamory as a legal example) in the western world which, assuming people actually care about equality (instead of just being pro-LGBTQ), needs more urgent attention. (Which are plain and simple observations that can be objectively quantified aka "factual" and not "nebulous".) While talking about minorities that are far worse off than homosexual people who need urgent attention from medical and legal aspects, you are forgetting about (or at least not mentioning) transgender people who also fall under LGBTQ, who in many places of the western world still face a lot of medical and legal challenges: -many countries and states not having any laws protecting transsexual people from being fired for transitioning; -many countries and states refusing to ever change one's sex on one's birth certificate and other legal documents; -many countries and states that require one to have gone through SRS in order to change their legal documents, when SRS isn't something that everyone wants and/or can afford; and in best case scenario this delays having congruent documents with one's gender presentation by at least over 2 years, or way more if someone had to present as their identified gender for 1 year before starting hormones, couldn't get SRS at 2 years after starting hormones, and couldn't get their legal documents immediately changed after SRS; good luck walking around with incongruent legal documents for many years (though at least a better situation, even Sweden requires surgical castration before changing legal documents, which however makes SRS results worse later on); -many countries and states not allowing someone to be prescribed hormone replacement therapy until having presented in public as their identified gender for 1 year, which is impossible for many people who can't pass as their identified gender prior to years on hormones, since they will be fired from work (due to the lack of the aforementioned laws against firing someone for transitioning) / not hired due to looking "in-between genders" (this is a further problem for genderqueer people who might indefinitely look "in-between genders"), and not being able to make any money for 1 year makes that unaffordable by many transsexual people; -some medical staff refusing to treat transgender people. Transgender rights are still way further behind gay rights, so there are still a lot of LGBTQ issues out there. Not to mention that a lot of people have absolutely no idea what it means to be a transsexual person, due to the horrible misrepresentations in mainstream media, etc. Like when I tell people that I'm a lesbian trans woman, they suddenly realise they have no idea whatsoever then, since they thought that "trans women" (quotation marks because they only knew some horribly offensive terms instead, about which many of them didn't even know were offensive terms) were just sexually deviant insane gay men who want to trick straight men into having sex with them. People need to be educated about gender dysphoria or else they will have no empathy (and they'll continue rather having fear, hate and disgust) towards a medical condition they completely misunderstand / don't accurately know anything at all about. And even gay issues don't end with the legalization of gay marriage and adoption rights, since there will still be anti-gay protests, hate crimes (and it's enough to be the victim of 1 hate crime out of 3000 encounters with people), etc. Thank you TL for the banner.
Yup, I'm totally with you. Count me in with the people who have zero clue about anything regarding Transgenders (at least in comparison to the LGB-portion) that goes further than "something something wants different sex something something". Which coincidentally brings me back to why I called the whole bannerchange thing both pointless and the lowest possible form of support possible initially: Besides some cool points regarding gay youth that Drone brought up the main point I've learned is that some others (or rather exclusively the guy above) have incredibly sexist views, just from the other side of the fence which is something I can't wrap my brain around.
I still don't know much more about what's going on in that direction (since I assume you're also talking about western countries that pride themselves in being for equality) since all I got was a pretty horse as a nice gesture with zero actual content backing it up.
What I'd like to add though when it comes to things like anti-gay protests or hate crimes I believe it's very, very important to know when to sit down and ask "Is the current state reasonable enough?" - I typed out half an abstract on the topic but I'm not sure how much the backstory is actually relevant to convey the main thing I'd like to mention: 1 in 3000 is very, very close to the amount of people who are classified as Neo-Nazis in Germany (26000 against a total population of 80 million) considered extreme enough to be put under observation since they're most likely to not just commit violent acts but to basically do something that is illegal enough to put them behind bars. If we assume that this group is so radical that it's incredibly unlikely that anything can change their opinion it will take decades until that number gets any lower. So, yeah. If 1 in 3000 people calls you names for anything or is willing to physically hurt you for anything I'd call that a huge win that should by no means be played down at all.
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At r.EVO:
Given that I have on multiple occasions stated that I'm all for the correction of whatever you perceive as injustices towards the kink community, I'm bemused as to why you still are compelled to make oblique accusations of me being sexist. It is also somewhat tragic that the charge of sexism arises from my preference of the views of a gay kinkster on matters of kink and homosexuality over your own.
I can only imagine such unfounded name calling as the dying throes of an argument which in absence of any principled logic has since descended into ad hominem attacks of hypocrisy and sexism.
In any event I've made my points, and as this thread shows the rainbow horse has largely achieved it's purpose of showing support and goodwill. My sole objective was defending tl's adoption of the rainbow horse, and I think that the supportive comments in this thread entirely validate the decision to feature the horse. Hence, I'll leave you to be angry or offended at whatever picks your fancy.
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Sweden5554 Posts
r.Evo please don't call people sexist, it's an ad hominem attack at best. And in my own opinion unjustly so.
One person's experience obviously is statistically insignificant, but you have yet to show any sort of data to support your claims that kinksters are mistreated and discriminated against at all, let alone on the same level that homosexuals are. So it would be disingenuous to require other people to support their claims by requiring them to show proof.
Also you're wrong that showing support by changing the banner doesn't help, and you're wrong that TL doesn't do anything else to make things better for the LGBTIQ people on TL. This thread is proof enough for both statements.
And as some have argued that we should support other things and more causes, but the reality is there's more causes in this world that are worthy of it but if we would make a banner for every cause we would have to change it very rapidly giving each one only a few hours. There's still wars, hunger and poverty, preventative diseases, lack of clean water, oppressive regimes, torture, refugees, illegal immigration, overpopulation, global climate change, toxic waste, overfishing, and on and on and on, So many things that need to be addressed and fixed for this world to stop sucking so much, things that are in our power to fix. However we've chosen this cause for now. And I think it's a pretty important cause. That we should all treat all people as equal. I would love to think that we wouldn't need to do this, but as this thread has also proven, we do. And that sucks, but that is what the world is like, TL is no exception, sadly.
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On August 02 2014 22:09 levelping wrote:
At r.EVO:
Given that I have on multiple occasions stated that I'm all for the correction of whatever you perceive as injustices towards the kink community, I'm bemused as to why you still are compelled to make oblique accusations of me being sexist. It is also somewhat tragic that the charge of sexism arises from my preference of the views of a gay kinkster on matters of kink and homosexuality over your own.
I can only imagine such unfounded name calling as the dying throes of an argument which in absence of any principled logic has since descended into ad hominem attacks of hypocrisy and sexism.
In any event I've made my points, and as this thread shows the rainbow horse has largely achieved it's purpose of showing support and goodwill. My sole objective was defending tl's adoption of the rainbow horse, and I think that the supportive comments in this thread entirely validate the decision to feature the horse. Hence, I'll leave you to be angry or offended at whatever picks your fancy.
I'm going to explain it exactly one last time:
If we assume a heterosexual person is equal in anything except their orientation then their views on an issue not specific to their sexual orientation HAS to be treated equally.
I am puzzelled as to how you have reached the conlucsion that i'm hypocritical or malicious by preferring the view of marvellosity over yours. That has nothing to do with being discriminatory, it's simply chosing what i find the more persuasive view. As a gay kinkster, marvellosity would have the best sort of experience to offer a view on this. You on the other hand are straight, and supposedly not even personally passiontate about the kink lifetstyle. That notwithstanding, you are presuming to be able to authoratitevely speak on behalf of homosexuals who maybe into kink, whereas he is relating personal experience. You can of course be entited to your view, but equality does not demand that I accord it the same amount of authority, especially when all you have done is make bare assertions that homosexuality and kink are similar. I recognise my own limitations in understanding how kink and sexual orientation interact, and so when someone who has a personal expereicne of both speaks up, I think it eminiently reasonable to defer to his expereince over yours.
The question asked was not for example "How do you enjoy having sex with another man the most?" where, for obvious reasons, a gay man is more qualified to answer than a straight man. The initial issue in question was "How much does kink feature in a persons life?" with the addition of "Can it be more or at least as important as sexual orientation?"
BY DEFINITION (if we assume a hetero- and a homosexual person are equally treated and equal people aside from their sexuality) the answer from a hetero person has to be just as valid as the answer from a homo person.
I'm speaking on behalf of a person who has a sexual orientation and can make an incredibly valid claim about how far something that ANY PERSON OF ANY SEXUALITY can enjoy has an impact on my life or the life of other people I know.
The fact that another person who also has a sexual orientation and who can also make a valid claim about the issue has zero relevance in trying to determine who is right because it's just as valid as my valid claim about the issue. If both a homosexual person and a heterosexual person can be into something (e.g. kink or orange juice) that is in no shape or form dependent on their sexual orientation not treating their opinions as equally valid is per definition sexist.
The mere fact that I, personally, as a heterosexual human being can make the assertion that the extent to which "being kinky" can be at least equally as important as "being hetero" has to imply that the same assertion HAS to be possible for a homosexual human being unless you'd like to argue that homosexuals are different from heterosexual people regarding things that are not about their sexuality which again would be a, per definition, sexist point of view.
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r.Evo please don't call people sexist, it's an ad hominem attack at best. And in my own opinion unjustly so.
One person's experience obviously is statistically insignificant, but you have yet to show any sort of data to support your claims that kinksters are mistreated and discriminated against at all, let alone on the same level that homosexuals are. So it would be disingenuous to require other people to support their claims by requiring them to show proof.
If I would make the statement that my opinion is more valid than that of a gay person on the basis of said person being gay that is a sexist statement. Just like a person saying their opinion is more valid than the opinion of a black person because they're white is racist. That is in no shape or form an ad hominem.
I have linked both the ICD-10 and the DSM-IV which both treat various forms of kink as diseases. Since neither treat homosexuals as a disease that needs to be treated that is by definition an example of the medical community treating one less equal than the other.
The mere fact that you're telling me that valuing an opinion unequally based on someones sexual preference is not sexist is completely mind boggling.
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Sweden5554 Posts
On August 02 2014 22:46 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +r.Evo please don't call people sexist, it's an ad hominem attack at best. And in my own opinion unjustly so.
One person's experience obviously is statistically insignificant, but you have yet to show any sort of data to support your claims that kinksters are mistreated and discriminated against at all, let alone on the same level that homosexuals are. So it would be disingenuous to require other people to support their claims by requiring them to show proof. If I would make the statement that my opinion is more valid than that of a gay person on the basis of said person being gay that is a sexist statement. Just like a person saying their opinion is more valid than the opinion of a black person because they're white is racist. That is in no shape or form an ad hominem. I have linked both the ICD-10 and the DSM-IV which both treat various forms of kink as diseases. Since neither treat homosexuals as a disease that needs to be treated that is by definition an example of the medical community treating one less equal than the other. The mere fact that you're telling me that valuing an opinion unequally based on someones sexual preference is not sexist is completely mind boggling.
A gay person with kinks is better situated to speak about the differences between being gay and having kinks than someone who is not gay but has kinks. That much should be self evident. Also I'm sorry, you're right you linked to documents with guidelines that it should be treated as a mental issue, however that doesn't mean professionals actually follow them nor is WHO especially progressive, not sure about the DSM so won't speak to that.
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I don't really know or care why anyone would be against TL doing this.
Yes there are bigger issues out there, but it doesn't make this issue not one that we should be helping as well.
I am from Hong Kong and Gays do get discriminated heavily here.
Anything that supports them is a nice gesture.
Even if no one sees it, it's better than risking not doing it at all.
For someone, it may mean nothing, just a symbol with rainbow and a horse logo, for someone who cares, it means so much more.
It may spark someone's awareness of this issue. It may remind us that there are those who are still being discriminated, it may reminds homosexuals that there are others supporting them.
If you are annoyed by this somehow, stay annoyed, keep complaining. but I fully support TL on this one.
GJ TL
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On August 02 2014 23:06 salle wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2014 22:46 r.Evo wrote:r.Evo please don't call people sexist, it's an ad hominem attack at best. And in my own opinion unjustly so.
One person's experience obviously is statistically insignificant, but you have yet to show any sort of data to support your claims that kinksters are mistreated and discriminated against at all, let alone on the same level that homosexuals are. So it would be disingenuous to require other people to support their claims by requiring them to show proof. If I would make the statement that my opinion is more valid than that of a gay person on the basis of said person being gay that is a sexist statement. Just like a person saying their opinion is more valid than the opinion of a black person because they're white is racist. That is in no shape or form an ad hominem. I have linked both the ICD-10 and the DSM-IV which both treat various forms of kink as diseases. Since neither treat homosexuals as a disease that needs to be treated that is by definition an example of the medical community treating one less equal than the other. The mere fact that you're telling me that valuing an opinion unequally based on someones sexual preference is not sexist is completely mind boggling. A gay person with kinks is better situated to speak about the differences between being gay and having kinks than someone who is not gay but has kinks. That much should be self evident. Also I'm sorry, you're right you linked to documents with guidelines that it should be treated as a mental issue, however that doesn't mean professionals actually follow them nor is WHO especially progressive, not sure about the DSM so won't speak to that.
Salle, the differences between being gay and having kinks and being hetero and having kinks was not the topic.
The topic was "How much of an impact has sexual orientation on someone's life compared to the impact kink has on someone's life?" without any relation to which sexual orientation.
Within that topic valuing the opinion of a gay person who says "Kink has less of an impact in my life than being gay" above the opinion of a hetero person who says "Kink has equally or more of an impact in my life than being hetero has" is weighting the opinions with a sexist approach. On top of that they have to be interchangeable, just like for example that when a heterosexual person exists with a certain political view it has to be possible for a homosexual person with the same political view to exist unless we're implying a difference beyond sexual orientation (which I assume we aren't).
Wouldn't it be awful if homosexuality would be treated as a mental issue even by some professionals? It isn't, at least not to the degree that LGBT communities feels the need to hand out lists of "LGBT friendly therapists" (at least not to my knowledge, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong - I wouldn't be surprised if such a list exists for transgenders tho), while the Kink communities does feel said need.
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Sweden5554 Posts
No r.Evo I didn't make that comparison because it's a silly one to make. It's pretty self evident that someone with the normative sexual orientation would find their kinky side be a bigger issue than someone who is not sexually normative... Again you're saying apples and oranges should be compared. which they shouldn't. Apples are apples and oranges are oranges. Kink is a huge issue for some but not everyone, and there are bigger issues out there.
I have never heard of anything like a list for BDSM kinksters but I live in Sweden where it is not classified as a mental disorder (any more). So yay Sweden. If you live in a country where it is an issue then I suggest you do something about it (besides asking TL to raise awareness for you) In Sweden the BDSM community is also part of the pride week. They have seminars and tents and everything. Perhaps you can help organize such things at your local pride week? Maybe they already are, have you checked?
However on TL the issue is not people using "furry" or "kajira" as pejorative, however fag, faggot, and gay is used quite a bit. Transgendered are routinely called "he" even when they identify as women, etc. So this is why LGBT rights is important for us. Because we want everyone to feel welcome in our community. And then we need to make people who are not welcoming to others aware of this.
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Northern Ireland25243 Posts
Speaking of LGBT I've read on numerous places that the constituent groups are fragmenting a bit now we're in a relatively more understanding and tolerant age, for example transgendered people's current issues may not be best served by being under a larger umbrella. I think we see this with a great variety of groups and affiliations now that the internet helps people find those in identical situations around the world rather than perhaps choosing the closest group that doesn't quite represent them and them alone.
I'm relatively ignorant on this and was curious, figured it wouldn't be much of a derail to ask. Cheers in advance for anyone who can shed some light.
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I think that the movement is now towards groups which are sensitive to specific permutations of gender and sexual attraction. So for example people who were born anatomically male but identify as female but still like females would be trans gendered lesbians I think. I think someone who identified as such posted earlier in the thread.
Separately there's also a movement towards pansexuality which embraces the idea of being gender blind.
Lots of smaller groups usually get featured at pride events, so the best way of finding put is just to attend one. It's not just all about homosexuals and there's lots of other groups too (including kink!).
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Funny that you posted in this actual thread.
I can't really help you since it appears to be an heavily customized version of a filco keyboard, usually a Majestouch is used by Starcraft pros and I think the keys are customized to get the colors.
I have no idea where he got those key caps with the symbol on the front instead of the top and these colors, sorry about that.
You can always use something like this: http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/104-key-cherry-mx-keycap-set.html
But it'd be a really expensive keyboard
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I just noticed this gay tl logo.. I'm here from the beginning of this page, but this is too much for me. Promoting gay stuff is retarded. This is my lost post here, cya.
User was banned for this post.
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Sorry to see you go down like this mca64 
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Here from the beginning and this is the first time you see it? 
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