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@ r.Evo
I think you're being very disingenuous here:
1) My comment arose in the context of a conversation initiated by you when you invited a comparison between Kink relationships and homosexual ones. Right after your original comment about 24/7 relationships you go on to say "Why do you consider it any different if a man craves a relationship with another man or if a man craves a relationship with another women in which he isn't allowed to ever orgasm unless she allows him to?", thereby directly telling me that what you are talking about is no different from homosexual attraction. I notice you omitted this in your most recent post.
2) Accordingly, I'm not sure how I am the person that turn an issue that was not about sexuality into one, since you drew the comparison in the first place.
3) My argument also does not "fall apart" otherwise, because in the preceding paragraph (which you have also not quoted), I already set out my general point that the kink community can do whatever it wants, and is welcomed to do so; however there is no basis to suggest that the gay community ought to be held to the same standard.
4) When fetlife.com was first set up, I was one of the first users to sign up. That site has its problems, but being there for so long, I am well aware of the various sub cultures in kink. So I actually do know very well what a 24/7 relationship is, and I still don't see how that would feature in the same way as being homosexual. Homosexuality is something which you are every moment of your entire life, whereas 24/7 relationships are something you enter into as an adult. It can end. To look at it another way, a 24/7 relationship happens in the context of your sexuality. A homosexual man would not go into a 24/7 relationship with a woman, for fairly obvious reasons.
In any event, we have had a gay person who is into kink come out to just say that the two things simply do not compare. Unless you're suggesting that you, as a presumably straight male whom we now know is not "passionate about some form of kink lifestyle on a personal level", have a better insight into sexual orientation and kink, I don't see why we need to retread what marvellosity has helpfully settled a few posts ago.
5) Now, even if we were to ignore for a moment number 1 to 4 above, and you're right in that I'm a rude hypocrite, how does that have any bearing on whether TL should continue featuring the rainbow horse?
6) At this point I almost feel like you're being purposely obtuse and are just trying to get angry at something. not matter the relevance. Plus I've accorded you the decency, despite of your increasingly meandering arguments, of not resorting to calling your stuff "shit".
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Netherlands19135 Posts
Time to party it up at the pride this weekend. Boojah!
edit: I really hate the name "pride" for these things :/
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Northern Ireland25993 Posts
I like the gesture, hopefully in time the horse can be adorned with other colours to show solidarity with other groups too.
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On August 01 2014 23:05 levelping wrote:
6) At this point I almost feel like you're being purposely obtuse and are just trying to get angry at something. not matter the relevance. Plus I've accorded you the decency, despite of your increasingly meandering arguments, of not resorting to calling your stuff "shit".
I'm being angry because you're being hypocritical at best and malicious at worst. You talk about "decency" while calling things "disrespectful" / "nebulous" / "unfactual" / "intellectually unhonest" and worst of all you're presuming that someone's personal opinion is worth more because of their sexual orientation which is just as sexist as the opposite. Like what the hell. "A gay kinkster said your opinion on how much a role kink plays in someone's life is wrong so that point is invalid because as a hetero kinkster you can't know that as well as him." - No, he can't. Whether he's gay and I'm hetero that has zero impact on our abilities to judge how much of an impact something that can be applied to both hetero- or homosexuals can have on someones life. Your sexism in these issues shouldn't be acceptable to anyone just because it is pro-minority.
If I can draw a line between the influence kink has vs the influence of being hetero has on various people I know that is just as valid as if someone who is gay can say what the influence kink has on him vs the influence of him being gay. THAT is what equality means. Both statements are completely valid, in no way contradicting each other and can in combination only be used to make one single point: The influence sexual orientation and "sexual fetishism" has on a persons life can vary to the point of either being considered more important.
original quote:
Show nested quote +Seeing as we have had a gay kinkster (who would be best able to shed light on this) address us on how bad the comparison between being gay and being a kinkster is, I really feel like you're grasping at straws at this point.
My two main points I've explained repeatedly are:
1) That any and all relationships between consenting individuals (yes, plural) that are able to give consent should be treated the same. (Which is as fucking pro-equality, respectful and clear as possible.)
and 2) That there are minorities that are far worse off than homosexuals (with people into various kinks as a medical and people into polyamory as a legal example) in the western world which, assuming people actually care about equality (instead of just being pro-LGBTQ), needs more urgent attention. (Which are plain and simple observations that can be objectively quantified aka "factual" and not "nebulous".)
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at r.Evo:
This is becoming slightly tiresome.
I am puzzelled as to how you have reached the conlucsion that i'm hypocritical or malicious by preferring the view of marvellosity over yours. That has nothing to do with being discriminatory, it's simply chosing what i find the more persuasive view. As a gay kinkster, marvellosity would have the best sort of experience to offer a view on this. You on the other hand are straight, and supposedly not even personally passiontate about the kink lifetstyle. That notwithstanding, you are presuming to be able to authoratitevely speak on behalf of homosexuals who maybe into kink, whereas he is relating personal experience. You can of course be entited to your view, but equality does not demand that I accord it the same amount of authority, especially when all you have done is make bare assertions that homosexuality and kink are similar. I recognise my own limitations in understanding how kink and sexual orientation interact, and so when someone who has a personal expereicne of both speaks up, I think it eminiently reasonable to defer to his expereince over yours.
If those are your two main points, then I can put the first one to rest by saying that no one really disagrees with you. Please go advocate for equal rights for kinksters, with my blessings.
As for the second one, it is premised on a comparison between homosexuality and kink, which I (and some others) have tried to show you is a flawed comparison to make. In any event, even if you were compeltely correct and that kink communities are far worse off, this does not mean that TL should not put up its rainbow horse (i.e. the original thing you objected to before you meandered on to your general discussion now). Again, if kink is suffering as much as homosexuals, please go advocate for kink rights, with my blessings.
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On August 02 2014 16:51 r.Evo wrote:
and 2) That there are minorities that are far worse off than homosexuals (with people into various kinks as a medical and people into polyamory as a legal example) in the western world which, assuming people actually care about equality (instead of just being pro-LGBTQ), needs more urgent attention. (Which are plain and simple observations that can be objectively quantified aka "factual" and not "nebulous".)
While talking about minorities that are far worse off than homosexual people who need urgent attention from medical and legal aspects, you are forgetting about (or at least not mentioning) transgender people who also fall under LGBTQ, who in many places of the western world still face a lot of medical and legal challenges:
-many countries and states not having any laws protecting transsexual people from being fired for transitioning;
-many countries and states refusing to ever change one's sex on one's birth certificate and other legal documents;
-many countries and states that require one to have gone through SRS in order to change their legal documents, when SRS isn't something that everyone wants and/or can afford; and in best case scenario this delays having congruent documents with one's gender presentation by at least over 2 years, or way more if someone had to present as their identified gender for 1 year before starting hormones, couldn't get SRS at 2 years after starting hormones, and couldn't get their legal documents immediately changed after SRS; good luck walking around with incongruent legal documents for many years (though at least a better situation, even Sweden requires surgical castration before changing legal documents, which however makes SRS results worse later on);
-many countries and states not allowing someone to be prescribed hormone replacement therapy until having presented in public as their identified gender for 1 year, which is impossible for many people who can't pass as their identified gender prior to years on hormones, since they will be fired from work (due to the lack of the aforementioned laws against firing someone for transitioning) / not hired due to looking "in-between genders" (this is a further problem for genderqueer people who might indefinitely look "in-between genders"), and not being able to make any money for 1 year makes that unaffordable by many transsexual people;
-some medical staff refusing to treat transgender people.
Transgender rights are still way further behind gay rights, so there are still a lot of LGBTQ issues out there. Not to mention that a lot of people have absolutely no idea what it means to be a transsexual person, due to the horrible misrepresentations in mainstream media, etc. Like when I tell people that I'm a lesbian trans woman, they suddenly realise they have no idea whatsoever then, since they thought that "trans women" (quotation marks because they only knew some horribly offensive terms instead, about which many of them didn't even know were offensive terms) were just sexually deviant insane gay men who want to trick straight men into having sex with them. People need to be educated about gender dysphoria or else they will have no empathy (and they'll continue rather having fear, hate and disgust) towards a medical condition they completely misunderstand / don't accurately know anything at all about.
And even gay issues don't end with the legalization of gay marriage and adoption rights, since there will still be anti-gay protests, hate crimes (and it's enough to be the victim of 1 hate crime out of 3000 encounters with people), etc.
Thank you TL for the banner.
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so....is someone making this into a tidehunter cosmetic yet?
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On August 02 2014 19:12 Lynda wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2014 16:51 r.Evo wrote:
and 2) That there are minorities that are far worse off than homosexuals (with people into various kinks as a medical and people into polyamory as a legal example) in the western world which, assuming people actually care about equality (instead of just being pro-LGBTQ), needs more urgent attention. (Which are plain and simple observations that can be objectively quantified aka "factual" and not "nebulous".) While talking about minorities that are far worse off than homosexual people who need urgent attention from medical and legal aspects, you are forgetting about (or at least not mentioning) transgender people who also fall under LGBTQ, who in many places of the western world still face a lot of medical and legal challenges: -many countries and states not having any laws protecting transsexual people from being fired for transitioning; -many countries and states refusing to ever change one's sex on one's birth certificate and other legal documents; -many countries and states that require one to have gone through SRS in order to change their legal documents, when SRS isn't something that everyone wants and/or can afford; and in best case scenario this delays having congruent documents with one's gender presentation by at least over 2 years, or way more if someone had to present as their identified gender for 1 year before starting hormones, couldn't get SRS at 2 years after starting hormones, and couldn't get their legal documents immediately changed after SRS; good luck walking around with incongruent legal documents for many years (though at least a better situation, even Sweden requires surgical castration before changing legal documents, which however makes SRS results worse later on); -many countries and states not allowing someone to be prescribed hormone replacement therapy until having presented in public as their identified gender for 1 year, which is impossible for many people who can't pass as their identified gender prior to years on hormones, since they will be fired from work (due to the lack of the aforementioned laws against firing someone for transitioning) / not hired due to looking "in-between genders" (this is a further problem for genderqueer people who might indefinitely look "in-between genders"), and not being able to make any money for 1 year makes that unaffordable by many transsexual people; -some medical staff refusing to treat transgender people. Transgender rights are still way further behind gay rights, so there are still a lot of LGBTQ issues out there. Not to mention that a lot of people have absolutely no idea what it means to be a transsexual person, due to the horrible misrepresentations in mainstream media, etc. Like when I tell people that I'm a lesbian trans woman, they suddenly realise they have no idea whatsoever then, since they thought that "trans women" (quotation marks because they only knew some horribly offensive terms instead, about which many of them didn't even know were offensive terms) were just sexually deviant insane gay men who want to trick straight men into having sex with them. People need to be educated about gender dysphoria or else they will have no empathy (and they'll continue rather having fear, hate and disgust) towards a medical condition they completely misunderstand / don't accurately know anything at all about. And even gay issues don't end with the legalization of gay marriage and adoption rights, since there will still be anti-gay protests, hate crimes (and it's enough to be the victim of 1 hate crime out of 3000 encounters with people), etc. Thank you TL for the banner.
Yup, I'm totally with you. Count me in with the people who have zero clue about anything regarding Transgenders (at least in comparison to the LGB-portion) that goes further than "something something wants different sex something something". Which coincidentally brings me back to why I called the whole bannerchange thing both pointless and the lowest possible form of support possible initially: Besides some cool points regarding gay youth that Drone brought up the main point I've learned is that some others (or rather exclusively the guy above) have incredibly sexist views, just from the other side of the fence which is something I can't wrap my brain around.
I still don't know much more about what's going on in that direction (since I assume you're also talking about western countries that pride themselves in being for equality) since all I got was a pretty horse as a nice gesture with zero actual content backing it up.
What I'd like to add though when it comes to things like anti-gay protests or hate crimes I believe it's very, very important to know when to sit down and ask "Is the current state reasonable enough?" - I typed out half an abstract on the topic but I'm not sure how much the backstory is actually relevant to convey the main thing I'd like to mention: 1 in 3000 is very, very close to the amount of people who are classified as Neo-Nazis in Germany (26000 against a total population of 80 million) considered extreme enough to be put under observation since they're most likely to not just commit violent acts but to basically do something that is illegal enough to put them behind bars. If we assume that this group is so radical that it's incredibly unlikely that anything can change their opinion it will take decades until that number gets any lower. So, yeah. If 1 in 3000 people calls you names for anything or is willing to physically hurt you for anything I'd call that a huge win that should by no means be played down at all.
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At r.EVO:
Given that I have on multiple occasions stated that I'm all for the correction of whatever you perceive as injustices towards the kink community, I'm bemused as to why you still are compelled to make oblique accusations of me being sexist. It is also somewhat tragic that the charge of sexism arises from my preference of the views of a gay kinkster on matters of kink and homosexuality over your own.
I can only imagine such unfounded name calling as the dying throes of an argument which in absence of any principled logic has since descended into ad hominem attacks of hypocrisy and sexism.
In any event I've made my points, and as this thread shows the rainbow horse has largely achieved it's purpose of showing support and goodwill. My sole objective was defending tl's adoption of the rainbow horse, and I think that the supportive comments in this thread entirely validate the decision to feature the horse. Hence, I'll leave you to be angry or offended at whatever picks your fancy.
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Sweden5554 Posts
r.Evo please don't call people sexist, it's an ad hominem attack at best. And in my own opinion unjustly so.
One person's experience obviously is statistically insignificant, but you have yet to show any sort of data to support your claims that kinksters are mistreated and discriminated against at all, let alone on the same level that homosexuals are. So it would be disingenuous to require other people to support their claims by requiring them to show proof.
Also you're wrong that showing support by changing the banner doesn't help, and you're wrong that TL doesn't do anything else to make things better for the LGBTIQ people on TL. This thread is proof enough for both statements.
And as some have argued that we should support other things and more causes, but the reality is there's more causes in this world that are worthy of it but if we would make a banner for every cause we would have to change it very rapidly giving each one only a few hours. There's still wars, hunger and poverty, preventative diseases, lack of clean water, oppressive regimes, torture, refugees, illegal immigration, overpopulation, global climate change, toxic waste, overfishing, and on and on and on, So many things that need to be addressed and fixed for this world to stop sucking so much, things that are in our power to fix. However we've chosen this cause for now. And I think it's a pretty important cause. That we should all treat all people as equal. I would love to think that we wouldn't need to do this, but as this thread has also proven, we do. And that sucks, but that is what the world is like, TL is no exception, sadly.
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On August 02 2014 22:09 levelping wrote:
At r.EVO:
Given that I have on multiple occasions stated that I'm all for the correction of whatever you perceive as injustices towards the kink community, I'm bemused as to why you still are compelled to make oblique accusations of me being sexist. It is also somewhat tragic that the charge of sexism arises from my preference of the views of a gay kinkster on matters of kink and homosexuality over your own.
I can only imagine such unfounded name calling as the dying throes of an argument which in absence of any principled logic has since descended into ad hominem attacks of hypocrisy and sexism.
In any event I've made my points, and as this thread shows the rainbow horse has largely achieved it's purpose of showing support and goodwill. My sole objective was defending tl's adoption of the rainbow horse, and I think that the supportive comments in this thread entirely validate the decision to feature the horse. Hence, I'll leave you to be angry or offended at whatever picks your fancy.
I'm going to explain it exactly one last time:
If we assume a heterosexual person is equal in anything except their orientation then their views on an issue not specific to their sexual orientation HAS to be treated equally.
I am puzzelled as to how you have reached the conlucsion that i'm hypocritical or malicious by preferring the view of marvellosity over yours. That has nothing to do with being discriminatory, it's simply chosing what i find the more persuasive view. As a gay kinkster, marvellosity would have the best sort of experience to offer a view on this. You on the other hand are straight, and supposedly not even personally passiontate about the kink lifetstyle. That notwithstanding, you are presuming to be able to authoratitevely speak on behalf of homosexuals who maybe into kink, whereas he is relating personal experience. You can of course be entited to your view, but equality does not demand that I accord it the same amount of authority, especially when all you have done is make bare assertions that homosexuality and kink are similar. I recognise my own limitations in understanding how kink and sexual orientation interact, and so when someone who has a personal expereicne of both speaks up, I think it eminiently reasonable to defer to his expereince over yours.
The question asked was not for example "How do you enjoy having sex with another man the most?" where, for obvious reasons, a gay man is more qualified to answer than a straight man. The initial issue in question was "How much does kink feature in a persons life?" with the addition of "Can it be more or at least as important as sexual orientation?"
BY DEFINITION (if we assume a hetero- and a homosexual person are equally treated and equal people aside from their sexuality) the answer from a hetero person has to be just as valid as the answer from a homo person.
I'm speaking on behalf of a person who has a sexual orientation and can make an incredibly valid claim about how far something that ANY PERSON OF ANY SEXUALITY can enjoy has an impact on my life or the life of other people I know.
The fact that another person who also has a sexual orientation and who can also make a valid claim about the issue has zero relevance in trying to determine who is right because it's just as valid as my valid claim about the issue. If both a homosexual person and a heterosexual person can be into something (e.g. kink or orange juice) that is in no shape or form dependent on their sexual orientation not treating their opinions as equally valid is per definition sexist.
The mere fact that I, personally, as a heterosexual human being can make the assertion that the extent to which "being kinky" can be at least equally as important as "being hetero" has to imply that the same assertion HAS to be possible for a homosexual human being unless you'd like to argue that homosexuals are different from heterosexual people regarding things that are not about their sexuality which again would be a, per definition, sexist point of view.
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r.Evo please don't call people sexist, it's an ad hominem attack at best. And in my own opinion unjustly so.
One person's experience obviously is statistically insignificant, but you have yet to show any sort of data to support your claims that kinksters are mistreated and discriminated against at all, let alone on the same level that homosexuals are. So it would be disingenuous to require other people to support their claims by requiring them to show proof.
If I would make the statement that my opinion is more valid than that of a gay person on the basis of said person being gay that is a sexist statement. Just like a person saying their opinion is more valid than the opinion of a black person because they're white is racist. That is in no shape or form an ad hominem.
I have linked both the ICD-10 and the DSM-IV which both treat various forms of kink as diseases. Since neither treat homosexuals as a disease that needs to be treated that is by definition an example of the medical community treating one less equal than the other.
The mere fact that you're telling me that valuing an opinion unequally based on someones sexual preference is not sexist is completely mind boggling.
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Sweden5554 Posts
On August 02 2014 22:46 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +r.Evo please don't call people sexist, it's an ad hominem attack at best. And in my own opinion unjustly so.
One person's experience obviously is statistically insignificant, but you have yet to show any sort of data to support your claims that kinksters are mistreated and discriminated against at all, let alone on the same level that homosexuals are. So it would be disingenuous to require other people to support their claims by requiring them to show proof. If I would make the statement that my opinion is more valid than that of a gay person on the basis of said person being gay that is a sexist statement. Just like a person saying their opinion is more valid than the opinion of a black person because they're white is racist. That is in no shape or form an ad hominem. I have linked both the ICD-10 and the DSM-IV which both treat various forms of kink as diseases. Since neither treat homosexuals as a disease that needs to be treated that is by definition an example of the medical community treating one less equal than the other. The mere fact that you're telling me that valuing an opinion unequally based on someones sexual preference is not sexist is completely mind boggling.
A gay person with kinks is better situated to speak about the differences between being gay and having kinks than someone who is not gay but has kinks. That much should be self evident. Also I'm sorry, you're right you linked to documents with guidelines that it should be treated as a mental issue, however that doesn't mean professionals actually follow them nor is WHO especially progressive, not sure about the DSM so won't speak to that.
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I don't really know or care why anyone would be against TL doing this.
Yes there are bigger issues out there, but it doesn't make this issue not one that we should be helping as well.
I am from Hong Kong and Gays do get discriminated heavily here.
Anything that supports them is a nice gesture.
Even if no one sees it, it's better than risking not doing it at all.
For someone, it may mean nothing, just a symbol with rainbow and a horse logo, for someone who cares, it means so much more.
It may spark someone's awareness of this issue. It may remind us that there are those who are still being discriminated, it may reminds homosexuals that there are others supporting them.
If you are annoyed by this somehow, stay annoyed, keep complaining. but I fully support TL on this one.
GJ TL
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On August 02 2014 23:06 salle wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2014 22:46 r.Evo wrote:r.Evo please don't call people sexist, it's an ad hominem attack at best. And in my own opinion unjustly so.
One person's experience obviously is statistically insignificant, but you have yet to show any sort of data to support your claims that kinksters are mistreated and discriminated against at all, let alone on the same level that homosexuals are. So it would be disingenuous to require other people to support their claims by requiring them to show proof. If I would make the statement that my opinion is more valid than that of a gay person on the basis of said person being gay that is a sexist statement. Just like a person saying their opinion is more valid than the opinion of a black person because they're white is racist. That is in no shape or form an ad hominem. I have linked both the ICD-10 and the DSM-IV which both treat various forms of kink as diseases. Since neither treat homosexuals as a disease that needs to be treated that is by definition an example of the medical community treating one less equal than the other. The mere fact that you're telling me that valuing an opinion unequally based on someones sexual preference is not sexist is completely mind boggling. A gay person with kinks is better situated to speak about the differences between being gay and having kinks than someone who is not gay but has kinks. That much should be self evident. Also I'm sorry, you're right you linked to documents with guidelines that it should be treated as a mental issue, however that doesn't mean professionals actually follow them nor is WHO especially progressive, not sure about the DSM so won't speak to that.
Salle, the differences between being gay and having kinks and being hetero and having kinks was not the topic.
The topic was "How much of an impact has sexual orientation on someone's life compared to the impact kink has on someone's life?" without any relation to which sexual orientation.
Within that topic valuing the opinion of a gay person who says "Kink has less of an impact in my life than being gay" above the opinion of a hetero person who says "Kink has equally or more of an impact in my life than being hetero has" is weighting the opinions with a sexist approach. On top of that they have to be interchangeable, just like for example that when a heterosexual person exists with a certain political view it has to be possible for a homosexual person with the same political view to exist unless we're implying a difference beyond sexual orientation (which I assume we aren't).
Wouldn't it be awful if homosexuality would be treated as a mental issue even by some professionals? It isn't, at least not to the degree that LGBT communities feels the need to hand out lists of "LGBT friendly therapists" (at least not to my knowledge, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong - I wouldn't be surprised if such a list exists for transgenders tho), while the Kink communities does feel said need.
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Sweden5554 Posts
No r.Evo I didn't make that comparison because it's a silly one to make. It's pretty self evident that someone with the normative sexual orientation would find their kinky side be a bigger issue than someone who is not sexually normative... Again you're saying apples and oranges should be compared. which they shouldn't. Apples are apples and oranges are oranges. Kink is a huge issue for some but not everyone, and there are bigger issues out there.
I have never heard of anything like a list for BDSM kinksters but I live in Sweden where it is not classified as a mental disorder (any more). So yay Sweden. If you live in a country where it is an issue then I suggest you do something about it (besides asking TL to raise awareness for you) In Sweden the BDSM community is also part of the pride week. They have seminars and tents and everything. Perhaps you can help organize such things at your local pride week? Maybe they already are, have you checked?
However on TL the issue is not people using "furry" or "kajira" as pejorative, however fag, faggot, and gay is used quite a bit. Transgendered are routinely called "he" even when they identify as women, etc. So this is why LGBT rights is important for us. Because we want everyone to feel welcome in our community. And then we need to make people who are not welcoming to others aware of this.
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Northern Ireland25993 Posts
Speaking of LGBT I've read on numerous places that the constituent groups are fragmenting a bit now we're in a relatively more understanding and tolerant age, for example transgendered people's current issues may not be best served by being under a larger umbrella. I think we see this with a great variety of groups and affiliations now that the internet helps people find those in identical situations around the world rather than perhaps choosing the closest group that doesn't quite represent them and them alone.
I'm relatively ignorant on this and was curious, figured it wouldn't be much of a derail to ask. Cheers in advance for anyone who can shed some light.
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I think that the movement is now towards groups which are sensitive to specific permutations of gender and sexual attraction. So for example people who were born anatomically male but identify as female but still like females would be trans gendered lesbians I think. I think someone who identified as such posted earlier in the thread.
Separately there's also a movement towards pansexuality which embraces the idea of being gender blind.
Lots of smaller groups usually get featured at pride events, so the best way of finding put is just to attend one. It's not just all about homosexuals and there's lots of other groups too (including kink!).
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EPT
