On August 02 2014 13:46 darthfoley wrote: A powerful piece written by a Holocaust survivor. It is quite short, and will take no long than a couple of minutes to finish. Highly recommend: Beautiful dream of Israel has become a nightmare
As a Jewish youngster growing up in Budapest, an infant survivor of the Nazi genocide, I was for years haunted by a question resounding in my brain with such force that sometimes my head would spin: “How was it possible? How could the world have let such horrors happen?”
It was a naïve question, that of a child. I know better now: such is reality. Whether in Vietnam or Rwanda or Syria, humanity stands by either complicitly or unconsciously or helplessly, as it always does. In Gaza today we find ways of justifying the bombing of hospitals, the annihilation of families at dinner, the killing of pre-adolescents playing soccer on a beach.
Wow really good piece. But you can see where Israel is coming from. Unfortunately, not being Muslim in the Mideast/N. Africa is an absolute nightmare. The only period of peace for minority religions was in the former secular republics, like Lebanon at various points, Iraq before 2003 and Syria before the civil war, and Egypt. Now they're being mercilessly slaughtered in Iraq and Syria. But even before that, that it was various forms of persecution, genocide by Ottomans, and deportation by old Arab and Persian monarchs, just in the 20th century alone.
So you can see in this region, especially in the last decade, why minority religions in Muslim countries are extremely fearful, and why the Jews in Israel are extremely committed to protecting themselves. The downside of this is it has even before Israel was founded developed a highly nationalistic, ethnocentric, and martial culture that gives less care than they should to damage to civilians in warfare and other matters. If it weren't for the fact that practically every nation but the US condemns them, it wouldn't surprise me if the Israelis were far more aggressive and destructive. It's certainly within their interests, as the one safe place in the Mideast for non-Muslims, to do so. But there must be a balance. Fears and jingoism cannot lead to unjustifiable degrees of violence, and they need to stop puffing their chests because the US backs them to the hilt. Perhaps they should humbly realize that if not for the US, they'd be getting slapped with sanctions like crazy. It would sober them up, to say the least. But, they hold all the cards in this scenario and largely control the conflict. They can do more to prevent infrastructural destruction and death.
There is a significant jewish community in Iran, and even a jewish deputee. Israel is not committed to protecting themselves, they are commited to taking the land of their eretz israel, and plenty of people gave facts to support this point - going from statement from israeli high officials/politicians, arguments from political individuals such as Jimmy Carter, or even the charter of the Likud party. It is not about security, it is about creating and expanding their jewish state.
Yeah, and exactly the same evidence can be given for Palestina (and other nations in that region) not seeking peace and friendly relations with israel, but that they want to extinct that nation and conquer their land.
Palestine ? They are negociating since years, they already accepted all demands from Kerry and it's Israel who refused in the last peace talks... Show me the facts.
On August 03 2014 03:47 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:34 WhiteDog wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:27 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On August 02 2014 13:46 darthfoley wrote: A powerful piece written by a Holocaust survivor. It is quite short, and will take no long than a couple of minutes to finish. Highly recommend: Beautiful dream of Israel has become a nightmare
As a Jewish youngster growing up in Budapest, an infant survivor of the Nazi genocide, I was for years haunted by a question resounding in my brain with such force that sometimes my head would spin: “How was it possible? How could the world have let such horrors happen?”
It was a naïve question, that of a child. I know better now: such is reality. Whether in Vietnam or Rwanda or Syria, humanity stands by either complicitly or unconsciously or helplessly, as it always does. In Gaza today we find ways of justifying the bombing of hospitals, the annihilation of families at dinner, the killing of pre-adolescents playing soccer on a beach.
Wow really good piece. But you can see where Israel is coming from. Unfortunately, not being Muslim in the Mideast/N. Africa is an absolute nightmare. The only period of peace for minority religions was in the former secular republics, like Lebanon at various points, Iraq before 2003 and Syria before the civil war, and Egypt. Now they're being mercilessly slaughtered in Iraq and Syria. But even before that, that it was various forms of persecution, genocide by Ottomans, and deportation by old Arab and Persian monarchs, just in the 20th century alone.
So you can see in this region, especially in the last decade, why minority religions in Muslim countries are extremely fearful, and why the Jews in Israel are extremely committed to protecting themselves. The downside of this is it has even before Israel was founded developed a highly nationalistic, ethnocentric, and martial culture that gives less care than they should to damage to civilians in warfare and other matters. If it weren't for the fact that practically every nation but the US condemns them, it wouldn't surprise me if the Israelis were far more aggressive and destructive. It's certainly within their interests, as the one safe place in the Mideast for non-Muslims, to do so. But there must be a balance. Fears and jingoism cannot lead to unjustifiable degrees of violence, and they need to stop puffing their chests because the US backs them to the hilt. Perhaps they should humbly realize that if not for the US, they'd be getting slapped with sanctions like crazy. It would sober them up, to say the least. But, they hold all the cards in this scenario and largely control the conflict. They can do more to prevent infrastructural destruction and death.
There is a significant jewish community in Iran, and even jewish deputee. Israel is not committed to protecting themselves, their commited to taking the land of their eretz israel, and plenty of people gave facts to support this point - going from statement from israeli high officials/politicians, arguments from political individuals such as Jimmy Carter, or even the charter of the Likud party. It is not about security, it is about creating a jewish state.
Most of the Jews departed in the 40s/50s when Muslim monarchs decided it was a good idea to get rid of them, so they fled to Israel and the US, in particular Iranian Jews. Most of the remainder of Iranian Christians and Jews fled (and smartly so) when Jihadlord Khomeini took over in Iran. There's a significantly lower number of Jews in Iran than there were in 1948. There were over 100k back then. Now, there's estimates of ~30,000 but I remember seeing something a year ago from census data the reported less than 10,000. It is still a precarious situation there, and if we go back, was hostile in the years of Khomeini's takeover. Fortunately (or unfortunately), he was more intent on vengeance and attempting to conquer the Shiite holy cities than he was on persecuting non-Muslims too much.
I noted the overaggression of Israel, but the daily happenings in the Mideast and politics of many of the Mideastern Muslim states are enough to drive any Israeli to shitting their pants if they were to think about it too much. And things are only growing worse. The Islamic Revolution (which overthrew Iran's secular order and installed a jihad-focused regime), the embargo and following Iraq War (Iraq was the strongly dedicated anti-Islamist state in the region) and the Arab Spring (which have replaced stable secular regimes with Islamic extremists) have been monumentally disastrous for the Middle East and for the climate for Israel. The Jewish state has been around for 66 years. It has been created long ago. But what do you suggest? That it be dismantled? That Jews in the Mideast suffer the same fate as their Christian counterparts? No thanks. Sadly, we cannot simply change the history of things. We cannot erase the British/American and Spanish conquests of the native nations of the New World, just like we cannot erase the establishment of Israel by desperate and enraged Zionists. We must focus on the present.
I suggest they stop their colonialism. I'm not against the reality of Israel because doing so would be against my own value : ethnical cleansing and massacre, just like Israel has done and is doing. And the 4th military power in the world, armed with the nuclear bomb, doesn't fear anything from people who have no tanks nor airforce.
Given the political culture, I fear the colonialism won't stop. Sanctions would sober them and have them realize their mortality, but the US and AIPAC would never allow that to happen. Who's fearful of Palestinians? Rather, there's something to fear when you have countries like Egypt completely swagged out by the US who've held a precarious peace with Israel thanks to US money, a nation founded by jihad just a few countries to the east, and volatile Gulf oil sheikhs who don't know what to do with their infinite money besides supporting terrorists.
I agree with part of your statements, but saying that they fear about their neighbour is a bit disingenuous to me because the tension everybody feel towards them is largely due to their own policy. Considering the amount of unstability in the middle east they are not receiving any threat from Iraq or Syria, so it's safe to say that if they finally ended their desire to acquire palestinians territory and accepted to settle, things could desescalate from there and we could foresee a true peace in the next decade.
Btw I didn't respond but Khomeni declared a fatwa on protecting the jews in Iran, so they were far from wanting to persecute them.
On August 03 2014 04:10 Big J wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:50 WhiteDog wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:43 Big J wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:34 WhiteDog wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:27 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On August 02 2014 13:46 darthfoley wrote: A powerful piece written by a Holocaust survivor. It is quite short, and will take no long than a couple of minutes to finish. Highly recommend: Beautiful dream of Israel has become a nightmare
As a Jewish youngster growing up in Budapest, an infant survivor of the Nazi genocide, I was for years haunted by a question resounding in my brain with such force that sometimes my head would spin: “How was it possible? How could the world have let such horrors happen?”
It was a naïve question, that of a child. I know better now: such is reality. Whether in Vietnam or Rwanda or Syria, humanity stands by either complicitly or unconsciously or helplessly, as it always does. In Gaza today we find ways of justifying the bombing of hospitals, the annihilation of families at dinner, the killing of pre-adolescents playing soccer on a beach.
Wow really good piece. But you can see where Israel is coming from. Unfortunately, not being Muslim in the Mideast/N. Africa is an absolute nightmare. The only period of peace for minority religions was in the former secular republics, like Lebanon at various points, Iraq before 2003 and Syria before the civil war, and Egypt. Now they're being mercilessly slaughtered in Iraq and Syria. But even before that, that it was various forms of persecution, genocide by Ottomans, and deportation by old Arab and Persian monarchs, just in the 20th century alone.
So you can see in this region, especially in the last decade, why minority religions in Muslim countries are extremely fearful, and why the Jews in Israel are extremely committed to protecting themselves. The downside of this is it has even before Israel was founded developed a highly nationalistic, ethnocentric, and martial culture that gives less care than they should to damage to civilians in warfare and other matters. If it weren't for the fact that practically every nation but the US condemns them, it wouldn't surprise me if the Israelis were far more aggressive and destructive. It's certainly within their interests, as the one safe place in the Mideast for non-Muslims, to do so. But there must be a balance. Fears and jingoism cannot lead to unjustifiable degrees of violence, and they need to stop puffing their chests because the US backs them to the hilt. Perhaps they should humbly realize that if not for the US, they'd be getting slapped with sanctions like crazy. It would sober them up, to say the least. But, they hold all the cards in this scenario and largely control the conflict. They can do more to prevent infrastructural destruction and death.
There is a significant jewish community in Iran, and even a jewish deputee. Israel is not committed to protecting themselves, they are commited to taking the land of their eretz israel, and plenty of people gave facts to support this point - going from statement from israeli high officials/politicians, arguments from political individuals such as Jimmy Carter, or even the charter of the Likud party. It is not about security, it is about creating and expanding their jewish state.
Yeah, and exactly the same evidence can be given for Palestina (and other nations in that region) not seeking peace and friendly relations with israel, but that they want to extinct that nation and conquer their land.
Palestine ? They are negociating since years, they already accepted all demands from Kerry and it's Israel who refused in the last peace talks... Show me the facts.
Prefixing: I did not imply that they are not negotiating, nor do I say or believe anything like that. My point is solely that there are quotes and that there is evidence for both sides demanding the other parties land. And in the same spirit of arguing "they are negotiating, so they cannot mean to destroy Israel", you can say "Israel gave the land to them, so they cannot mean to reconquer it". Below the quotes that you are seeking:
Hamas official Halil Al-Hayya, Al-Hayat newspaper, November 11, 2010 "The lie of the Zionist Holocaust crumbles with countless holocausts committed by the Zionists in Beit Hanoun, al-Fakhoura school and other places in Palestine." "Palestine is Islamic, and not an Islamic emirate, from the river to the sea, that unites the Palestinians. Jews have no right in it, with the exception of those who lived on the land of Palestine before World War I."
Hamas leader Mahmoud Al-Zahhar, Future News TV, June 15, 2010, Source: MEMRI.org "We have liberated Gaza, but have we recognized Israel? Have we given up our lands occupied in 1948? We demand the liberation of the West Bank, and the establishment of a state in the West Bank and Gaza, with Jerusalem as its capital – but without recognizing [Israel]. This is the key – without recognizing the Israeli enemy on a single inch of land... "Our plan for this stage is to liberate any inch of Palestinian land, and to establish a state on it. Our ultimate plan is [to have] Palestine in its entirety. I say this loud and clear so that nobody will accuse me of employing political tactics. We will not recognize the Israeli enemy. "
Sheikh Dr. Ahmad Bahar, acting Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council, April 20, 2007; as reported by Palestinian Media Watch, April 23, 2007 "This is Islam, that was ahead of its time with regards to human rights in the treatment of prisoners, but our nation was tested by the cancerous lump, that is the Jews, in the heart of the Arab nation... Be certain that America is on its way to utter destruction, America is wallowing [in blood] today in Iraq and Afghanistan, America is defeated and Israel is defeated, and was defeated in Lebanon and Palestine... Make us victorious over the community of infidels... Allah, take the Jews and their allies, Allah, take the Americans and their allies... Allah, annihilate them completely and do not leave anyone of them."
You gave no fact that palestinians refuse peace, you only quoted things from Hamas. Hamas is not palestine, it does not even represent the majority of Gazans. Jimmy Carter quoted several pools showing gazans are, in majority, for peace and a settlement base on the two state solution. He talk about it somewhere in this conference at Brandeis university :
Then quote one person that represents the majority of Israel. And PROOF that he represents the majority of them. Not argue. PROOF!
And the Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council is not a Hamas function...
The Likud is the dominant party in Israel. Netanyahu has 85 % approval rate or something ridiculous like that. Note that Israel has a government and a state, unlike Palestinian.
c. “The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.”
d. “The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.”
Just a couple short facts: Netanyahu doesn't have 85% support in israel (or even close to that), elections in israel are party based, meaning the most powerful party gets to try and assemble a coalition headed by the head of that party. In the last election Netanyahu even had to join his party with another right wing party in order to attain this status which he otherwise wouldn't have had.
Second, Hammas does technically represent the majority of gazans at the time of their first democratic elections several years ago. It is however correct to say that Hammas doesn't represent all Palestinians, since the "Fatah" party is the governing body in the west bank (The other palestinian territory near jerusalem).
On August 03 2014 03:27 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: [quote] Wow really good piece. But you can see where Israel is coming from. Unfortunately, not being Muslim in the Mideast/N. Africa is an absolute nightmare. The only period of peace for minority religions was in the former secular republics, like Lebanon at various points, Iraq before 2003 and Syria before the civil war, and Egypt. Now they're being mercilessly slaughtered in Iraq and Syria. But even before that, that it was various forms of persecution, genocide by Ottomans, and deportation by old Arab and Persian monarchs, just in the 20th century alone.
So you can see in this region, especially in the last decade, why minority religions in Muslim countries are extremely fearful, and why the Jews in Israel are extremely committed to protecting themselves. The downside of this is it has even before Israel was founded developed a highly nationalistic, ethnocentric, and martial culture that gives less care than they should to damage to civilians in warfare and other matters. If it weren't for the fact that practically every nation but the US condemns them, it wouldn't surprise me if the Israelis were far more aggressive and destructive. It's certainly within their interests, as the one safe place in the Mideast for non-Muslims, to do so. But there must be a balance. Fears and jingoism cannot lead to unjustifiable degrees of violence, and they need to stop puffing their chests because the US backs them to the hilt. Perhaps they should humbly realize that if not for the US, they'd be getting slapped with sanctions like crazy. It would sober them up, to say the least. But, they hold all the cards in this scenario and largely control the conflict. They can do more to prevent infrastructural destruction and death.
There is a significant jewish community in Iran, and even a jewish deputee. Israel is not committed to protecting themselves, they are commited to taking the land of their eretz israel, and plenty of people gave facts to support this point - going from statement from israeli high officials/politicians, arguments from political individuals such as Jimmy Carter, or even the charter of the Likud party. It is not about security, it is about creating and expanding their jewish state.
Yeah, and exactly the same evidence can be given for Palestina (and other nations in that region) not seeking peace and friendly relations with israel, but that they want to extinct that nation and conquer their land.
Palestine ? They are negociating since years, they already accepted all demands from Kerry and it's Israel who refused in the last peace talks... Show me the facts.
On August 03 2014 03:47 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:34 WhiteDog wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:27 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: [quote] Wow really good piece. But you can see where Israel is coming from. Unfortunately, not being Muslim in the Mideast/N. Africa is an absolute nightmare. The only period of peace for minority religions was in the former secular republics, like Lebanon at various points, Iraq before 2003 and Syria before the civil war, and Egypt. Now they're being mercilessly slaughtered in Iraq and Syria. But even before that, that it was various forms of persecution, genocide by Ottomans, and deportation by old Arab and Persian monarchs, just in the 20th century alone.
So you can see in this region, especially in the last decade, why minority religions in Muslim countries are extremely fearful, and why the Jews in Israel are extremely committed to protecting themselves. The downside of this is it has even before Israel was founded developed a highly nationalistic, ethnocentric, and martial culture that gives less care than they should to damage to civilians in warfare and other matters. If it weren't for the fact that practically every nation but the US condemns them, it wouldn't surprise me if the Israelis were far more aggressive and destructive. It's certainly within their interests, as the one safe place in the Mideast for non-Muslims, to do so. But there must be a balance. Fears and jingoism cannot lead to unjustifiable degrees of violence, and they need to stop puffing their chests because the US backs them to the hilt. Perhaps they should humbly realize that if not for the US, they'd be getting slapped with sanctions like crazy. It would sober them up, to say the least. But, they hold all the cards in this scenario and largely control the conflict. They can do more to prevent infrastructural destruction and death.
There is a significant jewish community in Iran, and even jewish deputee. Israel is not committed to protecting themselves, their commited to taking the land of their eretz israel, and plenty of people gave facts to support this point - going from statement from israeli high officials/politicians, arguments from political individuals such as Jimmy Carter, or even the charter of the Likud party. It is not about security, it is about creating a jewish state.
Most of the Jews departed in the 40s/50s when Muslim monarchs decided it was a good idea to get rid of them, so they fled to Israel and the US, in particular Iranian Jews. Most of the remainder of Iranian Christians and Jews fled (and smartly so) when Jihadlord Khomeini took over in Iran. There's a significantly lower number of Jews in Iran than there were in 1948. There were over 100k back then. Now, there's estimates of ~30,000 but I remember seeing something a year ago from census data the reported less than 10,000. It is still a precarious situation there, and if we go back, was hostile in the years of Khomeini's takeover. Fortunately (or unfortunately), he was more intent on vengeance and attempting to conquer the Shiite holy cities than he was on persecuting non-Muslims too much.
I noted the overaggression of Israel, but the daily happenings in the Mideast and politics of many of the Mideastern Muslim states are enough to drive any Israeli to shitting their pants if they were to think about it too much. And things are only growing worse. The Islamic Revolution (which overthrew Iran's secular order and installed a jihad-focused regime), the embargo and following Iraq War (Iraq was the strongly dedicated anti-Islamist state in the region) and the Arab Spring (which have replaced stable secular regimes with Islamic extremists) have been monumentally disastrous for the Middle East and for the climate for Israel. The Jewish state has been around for 66 years. It has been created long ago. But what do you suggest? That it be dismantled? That Jews in the Mideast suffer the same fate as their Christian counterparts? No thanks. Sadly, we cannot simply change the history of things. We cannot erase the British/American and Spanish conquests of the native nations of the New World, just like we cannot erase the establishment of Israel by desperate and enraged Zionists. We must focus on the present.
I suggest they stop their colonialism. I'm not against the reality of Israel because doing so would be against my own value : ethnical cleansing and massacre, just like Israel has done and is doing. And the 4th military power in the world, armed with the nuclear bomb, doesn't fear anything from people who have no tanks nor airforce.
Given the political culture, I fear the colonialism won't stop. Sanctions would sober them and have them realize their mortality, but the US and AIPAC would never allow that to happen. Who's fearful of Palestinians? Rather, there's something to fear when you have countries like Egypt completely swagged out by the US who've held a precarious peace with Israel thanks to US money, a nation founded by jihad just a few countries to the east, and volatile Gulf oil sheikhs who don't know what to do with their infinite money besides supporting terrorists.
I agree with part of your statements, but saying that they fear about their neighbour is a bit disingenuous to me because the tension everybody feel towards them is largely due to their own policy. Considering the amount of unstability in the middle east they are not receiving any threat from Iraq or Syria, so it's safe to say that if they finally ended their desire to acquire palestinians territory and accepted to settle, things could desescalate from there and we could foresee a true peace in the next decade.
Btw I didn't respond but Khomeni declared a fatwa on protecting the jews in Iran, so they were far from wanting to persecute them.
On August 03 2014 04:10 Big J wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:50 WhiteDog wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:43 Big J wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:34 WhiteDog wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:27 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: [quote] Wow really good piece. But you can see where Israel is coming from. Unfortunately, not being Muslim in the Mideast/N. Africa is an absolute nightmare. The only period of peace for minority religions was in the former secular republics, like Lebanon at various points, Iraq before 2003 and Syria before the civil war, and Egypt. Now they're being mercilessly slaughtered in Iraq and Syria. But even before that, that it was various forms of persecution, genocide by Ottomans, and deportation by old Arab and Persian monarchs, just in the 20th century alone.
So you can see in this region, especially in the last decade, why minority religions in Muslim countries are extremely fearful, and why the Jews in Israel are extremely committed to protecting themselves. The downside of this is it has even before Israel was founded developed a highly nationalistic, ethnocentric, and martial culture that gives less care than they should to damage to civilians in warfare and other matters. If it weren't for the fact that practically every nation but the US condemns them, it wouldn't surprise me if the Israelis were far more aggressive and destructive. It's certainly within their interests, as the one safe place in the Mideast for non-Muslims, to do so. But there must be a balance. Fears and jingoism cannot lead to unjustifiable degrees of violence, and they need to stop puffing their chests because the US backs them to the hilt. Perhaps they should humbly realize that if not for the US, they'd be getting slapped with sanctions like crazy. It would sober them up, to say the least. But, they hold all the cards in this scenario and largely control the conflict. They can do more to prevent infrastructural destruction and death.
There is a significant jewish community in Iran, and even a jewish deputee. Israel is not committed to protecting themselves, they are commited to taking the land of their eretz israel, and plenty of people gave facts to support this point - going from statement from israeli high officials/politicians, arguments from political individuals such as Jimmy Carter, or even the charter of the Likud party. It is not about security, it is about creating and expanding their jewish state.
Yeah, and exactly the same evidence can be given for Palestina (and other nations in that region) not seeking peace and friendly relations with israel, but that they want to extinct that nation and conquer their land.
Palestine ? They are negociating since years, they already accepted all demands from Kerry and it's Israel who refused in the last peace talks... Show me the facts.
Prefixing: I did not imply that they are not negotiating, nor do I say or believe anything like that. My point is solely that there are quotes and that there is evidence for both sides demanding the other parties land. And in the same spirit of arguing "they are negotiating, so they cannot mean to destroy Israel", you can say "Israel gave the land to them, so they cannot mean to reconquer it". Below the quotes that you are seeking:
Hamas official Halil Al-Hayya, Al-Hayat newspaper, November 11, 2010 "The lie of the Zionist Holocaust crumbles with countless holocausts committed by the Zionists in Beit Hanoun, al-Fakhoura school and other places in Palestine." "Palestine is Islamic, and not an Islamic emirate, from the river to the sea, that unites the Palestinians. Jews have no right in it, with the exception of those who lived on the land of Palestine before World War I."
Hamas leader Mahmoud Al-Zahhar, Future News TV, June 15, 2010, Source: MEMRI.org "We have liberated Gaza, but have we recognized Israel? Have we given up our lands occupied in 1948? We demand the liberation of the West Bank, and the establishment of a state in the West Bank and Gaza, with Jerusalem as its capital – but without recognizing [Israel]. This is the key – without recognizing the Israeli enemy on a single inch of land... "Our plan for this stage is to liberate any inch of Palestinian land, and to establish a state on it. Our ultimate plan is [to have] Palestine in its entirety. I say this loud and clear so that nobody will accuse me of employing political tactics. We will not recognize the Israeli enemy. "
Sheikh Dr. Ahmad Bahar, acting Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council, April 20, 2007; as reported by Palestinian Media Watch, April 23, 2007 "This is Islam, that was ahead of its time with regards to human rights in the treatment of prisoners, but our nation was tested by the cancerous lump, that is the Jews, in the heart of the Arab nation... Be certain that America is on its way to utter destruction, America is wallowing [in blood] today in Iraq and Afghanistan, America is defeated and Israel is defeated, and was defeated in Lebanon and Palestine... Make us victorious over the community of infidels... Allah, take the Jews and their allies, Allah, take the Americans and their allies... Allah, annihilate them completely and do not leave anyone of them."
You gave no fact that palestinians refuse peace, you only quoted things from Hamas. Hamas is not palestine, it does not even represent the majority of Gazans. Jimmy Carter quoted several pools showing gazans are, in majority, for peace and a settlement base on the two state solution. He talk about it somewhere in this conference at Brandeis university :
Then quote one person that represents the majority of Israel. And PROOF that he represents the majority of them. Not argue. PROOF!
And the Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council is not a Hamas function...
The Likud is the dominant party in Israel. Netanyahu has 85 % approval rate or something ridiculous like that.
That's an argument, not a proof.
All the proof you're searching for have been quoted already like three pages ago, I just quoted the likud party charter for you which clearly state that they refuse to acknowledge a Palestinian state.
Not one of those is a proof. It's all arguments. The thing is, that you basically do not count any argument of the opposing side, if there is any argument that you can hold against it. For you, putting an argument against an argument is enough to "disprove" any position of the dabater. Which it simply isn't, it's just argument against argument.
When I say, there are officials of Palestine that demand to take land of Israel, you just say they do not have the approval of all/the majority of people. With the argument that they only have 42% of votes and similar things. Well, 3things: a) if you let your country be represented by people that the majority doesn't want to be represent by, get your shit together b) by voting, you accept that you will be represented by the winner of the election. Whether you voted for him, or not. c) 42% of votes means that 42% of the people preferred the Hamas to represent them over other parties. That does not mean, that the other 58% are against Hamas representation. That just means, they thought there was an even better option.
It's all just arguments. And you just hold arguments against arguments and then declare your argument for "better".
On August 02 2014 13:46 darthfoley wrote: A powerful piece written by a Holocaust survivor. It is quite short, and will take no long than a couple of minutes to finish. Highly recommend: Beautiful dream of Israel has become a nightmare
[quote]
Wow really good piece. But you can see where Israel is coming from. Unfortunately, not being Muslim in the Mideast/N. Africa is an absolute nightmare. The only period of peace for minority religions was in the former secular republics, like Lebanon at various points, Iraq before 2003 and Syria before the civil war, and Egypt. Now they're being mercilessly slaughtered in Iraq and Syria. But even before that, that it was various forms of persecution, genocide by Ottomans, and deportation by old Arab and Persian monarchs, just in the 20th century alone.
So you can see in this region, especially in the last decade, why minority religions in Muslim countries are extremely fearful, and why the Jews in Israel are extremely committed to protecting themselves. The downside of this is it has even before Israel was founded developed a highly nationalistic, ethnocentric, and martial culture that gives less care than they should to damage to civilians in warfare and other matters. If it weren't for the fact that practically every nation but the US condemns them, it wouldn't surprise me if the Israelis were far more aggressive and destructive. It's certainly within their interests, as the one safe place in the Mideast for non-Muslims, to do so. But there must be a balance. Fears and jingoism cannot lead to unjustifiable degrees of violence, and they need to stop puffing their chests because the US backs them to the hilt. Perhaps they should humbly realize that if not for the US, they'd be getting slapped with sanctions like crazy. It would sober them up, to say the least. But, they hold all the cards in this scenario and largely control the conflict. They can do more to prevent infrastructural destruction and death.
There is a significant jewish community in Iran, and even a jewish deputee. Israel is not committed to protecting themselves, they are commited to taking the land of their eretz israel, and plenty of people gave facts to support this point - going from statement from israeli high officials/politicians, arguments from political individuals such as Jimmy Carter, or even the charter of the Likud party. It is not about security, it is about creating and expanding their jewish state.
Yeah, and exactly the same evidence can be given for Palestina (and other nations in that region) not seeking peace and friendly relations with israel, but that they want to extinct that nation and conquer their land.
Palestine ? They are negociating since years, they already accepted all demands from Kerry and it's Israel who refused in the last peace talks... Show me the facts.
On August 03 2014 03:47 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:34 WhiteDog wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:27 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On August 02 2014 13:46 darthfoley wrote: A powerful piece written by a Holocaust survivor. It is quite short, and will take no long than a couple of minutes to finish. Highly recommend: Beautiful dream of Israel has become a nightmare
[quote]
Wow really good piece. But you can see where Israel is coming from. Unfortunately, not being Muslim in the Mideast/N. Africa is an absolute nightmare. The only period of peace for minority religions was in the former secular republics, like Lebanon at various points, Iraq before 2003 and Syria before the civil war, and Egypt. Now they're being mercilessly slaughtered in Iraq and Syria. But even before that, that it was various forms of persecution, genocide by Ottomans, and deportation by old Arab and Persian monarchs, just in the 20th century alone.
So you can see in this region, especially in the last decade, why minority religions in Muslim countries are extremely fearful, and why the Jews in Israel are extremely committed to protecting themselves. The downside of this is it has even before Israel was founded developed a highly nationalistic, ethnocentric, and martial culture that gives less care than they should to damage to civilians in warfare and other matters. If it weren't for the fact that practically every nation but the US condemns them, it wouldn't surprise me if the Israelis were far more aggressive and destructive. It's certainly within their interests, as the one safe place in the Mideast for non-Muslims, to do so. But there must be a balance. Fears and jingoism cannot lead to unjustifiable degrees of violence, and they need to stop puffing their chests because the US backs them to the hilt. Perhaps they should humbly realize that if not for the US, they'd be getting slapped with sanctions like crazy. It would sober them up, to say the least. But, they hold all the cards in this scenario and largely control the conflict. They can do more to prevent infrastructural destruction and death.
There is a significant jewish community in Iran, and even jewish deputee. Israel is not committed to protecting themselves, their commited to taking the land of their eretz israel, and plenty of people gave facts to support this point - going from statement from israeli high officials/politicians, arguments from political individuals such as Jimmy Carter, or even the charter of the Likud party. It is not about security, it is about creating a jewish state.
Most of the Jews departed in the 40s/50s when Muslim monarchs decided it was a good idea to get rid of them, so they fled to Israel and the US, in particular Iranian Jews. Most of the remainder of Iranian Christians and Jews fled (and smartly so) when Jihadlord Khomeini took over in Iran. There's a significantly lower number of Jews in Iran than there were in 1948. There were over 100k back then. Now, there's estimates of ~30,000 but I remember seeing something a year ago from census data the reported less than 10,000. It is still a precarious situation there, and if we go back, was hostile in the years of Khomeini's takeover. Fortunately (or unfortunately), he was more intent on vengeance and attempting to conquer the Shiite holy cities than he was on persecuting non-Muslims too much.
I noted the overaggression of Israel, but the daily happenings in the Mideast and politics of many of the Mideastern Muslim states are enough to drive any Israeli to shitting their pants if they were to think about it too much. And things are only growing worse. The Islamic Revolution (which overthrew Iran's secular order and installed a jihad-focused regime), the embargo and following Iraq War (Iraq was the strongly dedicated anti-Islamist state in the region) and the Arab Spring (which have replaced stable secular regimes with Islamic extremists) have been monumentally disastrous for the Middle East and for the climate for Israel. The Jewish state has been around for 66 years. It has been created long ago. But what do you suggest? That it be dismantled? That Jews in the Mideast suffer the same fate as their Christian counterparts? No thanks. Sadly, we cannot simply change the history of things. We cannot erase the British/American and Spanish conquests of the native nations of the New World, just like we cannot erase the establishment of Israel by desperate and enraged Zionists. We must focus on the present.
I suggest they stop their colonialism. I'm not against the reality of Israel because doing so would be against my own value : ethnical cleansing and massacre, just like Israel has done and is doing. And the 4th military power in the world, armed with the nuclear bomb, doesn't fear anything from people who have no tanks nor airforce.
Given the political culture, I fear the colonialism won't stop. Sanctions would sober them and have them realize their mortality, but the US and AIPAC would never allow that to happen. Who's fearful of Palestinians? Rather, there's something to fear when you have countries like Egypt completely swagged out by the US who've held a precarious peace with Israel thanks to US money, a nation founded by jihad just a few countries to the east, and volatile Gulf oil sheikhs who don't know what to do with their infinite money besides supporting terrorists.
I agree with part of your statements, but saying that they fear about their neighbour is a bit disingenuous to me because the tension everybody feel towards them is largely due to their own policy. Considering the amount of unstability in the middle east they are not receiving any threat from Iraq or Syria, so it's safe to say that if they finally ended their desire to acquire palestinians territory and accepted to settle, things could desescalate from there and we could foresee a true peace in the next decade.
Btw I didn't respond but Khomeni declared a fatwa on protecting the jews in Iran, so they were far from wanting to persecute them.
On August 03 2014 04:10 Big J wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:50 WhiteDog wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:43 Big J wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:34 WhiteDog wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:27 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On August 02 2014 13:46 darthfoley wrote: A powerful piece written by a Holocaust survivor. It is quite short, and will take no long than a couple of minutes to finish. Highly recommend: Beautiful dream of Israel has become a nightmare
[quote]
Wow really good piece. But you can see where Israel is coming from. Unfortunately, not being Muslim in the Mideast/N. Africa is an absolute nightmare. The only period of peace for minority religions was in the former secular republics, like Lebanon at various points, Iraq before 2003 and Syria before the civil war, and Egypt. Now they're being mercilessly slaughtered in Iraq and Syria. But even before that, that it was various forms of persecution, genocide by Ottomans, and deportation by old Arab and Persian monarchs, just in the 20th century alone.
So you can see in this region, especially in the last decade, why minority religions in Muslim countries are extremely fearful, and why the Jews in Israel are extremely committed to protecting themselves. The downside of this is it has even before Israel was founded developed a highly nationalistic, ethnocentric, and martial culture that gives less care than they should to damage to civilians in warfare and other matters. If it weren't for the fact that practically every nation but the US condemns them, it wouldn't surprise me if the Israelis were far more aggressive and destructive. It's certainly within their interests, as the one safe place in the Mideast for non-Muslims, to do so. But there must be a balance. Fears and jingoism cannot lead to unjustifiable degrees of violence, and they need to stop puffing their chests because the US backs them to the hilt. Perhaps they should humbly realize that if not for the US, they'd be getting slapped with sanctions like crazy. It would sober them up, to say the least. But, they hold all the cards in this scenario and largely control the conflict. They can do more to prevent infrastructural destruction and death.
There is a significant jewish community in Iran, and even a jewish deputee. Israel is not committed to protecting themselves, they are commited to taking the land of their eretz israel, and plenty of people gave facts to support this point - going from statement from israeli high officials/politicians, arguments from political individuals such as Jimmy Carter, or even the charter of the Likud party. It is not about security, it is about creating and expanding their jewish state.
Yeah, and exactly the same evidence can be given for Palestina (and other nations in that region) not seeking peace and friendly relations with israel, but that they want to extinct that nation and conquer their land.
Palestine ? They are negociating since years, they already accepted all demands from Kerry and it's Israel who refused in the last peace talks... Show me the facts.
Prefixing: I did not imply that they are not negotiating, nor do I say or believe anything like that. My point is solely that there are quotes and that there is evidence for both sides demanding the other parties land. And in the same spirit of arguing "they are negotiating, so they cannot mean to destroy Israel", you can say "Israel gave the land to them, so they cannot mean to reconquer it". Below the quotes that you are seeking:
Hamas official Halil Al-Hayya, Al-Hayat newspaper, November 11, 2010 "The lie of the Zionist Holocaust crumbles with countless holocausts committed by the Zionists in Beit Hanoun, al-Fakhoura school and other places in Palestine." "Palestine is Islamic, and not an Islamic emirate, from the river to the sea, that unites the Palestinians. Jews have no right in it, with the exception of those who lived on the land of Palestine before World War I."
Hamas leader Mahmoud Al-Zahhar, Future News TV, June 15, 2010, Source: MEMRI.org "We have liberated Gaza, but have we recognized Israel? Have we given up our lands occupied in 1948? We demand the liberation of the West Bank, and the establishment of a state in the West Bank and Gaza, with Jerusalem as its capital – but without recognizing [Israel]. This is the key – without recognizing the Israeli enemy on a single inch of land... "Our plan for this stage is to liberate any inch of Palestinian land, and to establish a state on it. Our ultimate plan is [to have] Palestine in its entirety. I say this loud and clear so that nobody will accuse me of employing political tactics. We will not recognize the Israeli enemy. "
Sheikh Dr. Ahmad Bahar, acting Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council, April 20, 2007; as reported by Palestinian Media Watch, April 23, 2007 "This is Islam, that was ahead of its time with regards to human rights in the treatment of prisoners, but our nation was tested by the cancerous lump, that is the Jews, in the heart of the Arab nation... Be certain that America is on its way to utter destruction, America is wallowing [in blood] today in Iraq and Afghanistan, America is defeated and Israel is defeated, and was defeated in Lebanon and Palestine... Make us victorious over the community of infidels... Allah, take the Jews and their allies, Allah, take the Americans and their allies... Allah, annihilate them completely and do not leave anyone of them."
You gave no fact that palestinians refuse peace, you only quoted things from Hamas. Hamas is not palestine, it does not even represent the majority of Gazans. Jimmy Carter quoted several pools showing gazans are, in majority, for peace and a settlement base on the two state solution. He talk about it somewhere in this conference at Brandeis university :
Then quote one person that represents the majority of Israel. And PROOF that he represents the majority of them. Not argue. PROOF!
And the Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council is not a Hamas function...
The Likud is the dominant party in Israel. Netanyahu has 85 % approval rate or something ridiculous like that. Note that Israel has a government and a state, unlike Palestinian.
c. “The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.”
d. “The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.”
Just a couple short facts: Netanyahu doesn't have 85% support in israel (or even close to that), elections in israel are party based, meaning the most powerful party gets to try and assemble a coalition headed by the head of that party. In the last election Netanyahu even had to join his party with another right wing party in order to attain this status which he otherwise wouldn't have had.
Second, Hammas does technically represent the majority of gazans at the time of their first democratic elections several years ago. It is however correct to say that Hammas doesn't represent all Palestinians, since the "Fatah" party is the governing body in the west bank (The other palestinian territory near jerusalem).
The reason as to why gaza is directly behind Hammas is because they are resisting, but most gazans are for the two state solution and I gave proof of that in Jimmy Carter's Brandeis conference. Gaza has been elected with less than 45 % of the voter I believe, so they are not representing the majority.
Big J I don't know what you are talking about, when I'm quoting the charter of the Likud party that says we do not acknowledge palestine it is a proof not an argument, but I guess a proof can be an argument, an argument can be a proof, and a wolf can be chicken as long as your eyes see it that way.
On August 03 2014 04:53 WhiteDog wrote: Big J I don't know what you are talking about, when I'm quoting the charter of the Likud party that says we do not acknowledge palestine it is a proof not an argument, but I guess a proof can be an argument, an argument can be a proof, and a wolf can be chicken as long as your eyes see it that way.
It's a proof for what? For that, the Likud said that. That's right. When I quote that some Hamas guy is for the destruction of Israel, it's also a proof that some Hamas guy said that.
Neither is a proof that either side - Israel or Palestine - is currently seeking to achieve that or will in the future. It's only an argument that it might be like that.
On August 03 2014 03:27 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: [quote] Wow really good piece. But you can see where Israel is coming from. Unfortunately, not being Muslim in the Mideast/N. Africa is an absolute nightmare. The only period of peace for minority religions was in the former secular republics, like Lebanon at various points, Iraq before 2003 and Syria before the civil war, and Egypt. Now they're being mercilessly slaughtered in Iraq and Syria. But even before that, that it was various forms of persecution, genocide by Ottomans, and deportation by old Arab and Persian monarchs, just in the 20th century alone.
So you can see in this region, especially in the last decade, why minority religions in Muslim countries are extremely fearful, and why the Jews in Israel are extremely committed to protecting themselves. The downside of this is it has even before Israel was founded developed a highly nationalistic, ethnocentric, and martial culture that gives less care than they should to damage to civilians in warfare and other matters. If it weren't for the fact that practically every nation but the US condemns them, it wouldn't surprise me if the Israelis were far more aggressive and destructive. It's certainly within their interests, as the one safe place in the Mideast for non-Muslims, to do so. But there must be a balance. Fears and jingoism cannot lead to unjustifiable degrees of violence, and they need to stop puffing their chests because the US backs them to the hilt. Perhaps they should humbly realize that if not for the US, they'd be getting slapped with sanctions like crazy. It would sober them up, to say the least. But, they hold all the cards in this scenario and largely control the conflict. They can do more to prevent infrastructural destruction and death.
There is a significant jewish community in Iran, and even a jewish deputee. Israel is not committed to protecting themselves, they are commited to taking the land of their eretz israel, and plenty of people gave facts to support this point - going from statement from israeli high officials/politicians, arguments from political individuals such as Jimmy Carter, or even the charter of the Likud party. It is not about security, it is about creating and expanding their jewish state.
Yeah, and exactly the same evidence can be given for Palestina (and other nations in that region) not seeking peace and friendly relations with israel, but that they want to extinct that nation and conquer their land.
Palestine ? They are negociating since years, they already accepted all demands from Kerry and it's Israel who refused in the last peace talks... Show me the facts.
On August 03 2014 03:47 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:34 WhiteDog wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:27 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: [quote] Wow really good piece. But you can see where Israel is coming from. Unfortunately, not being Muslim in the Mideast/N. Africa is an absolute nightmare. The only period of peace for minority religions was in the former secular republics, like Lebanon at various points, Iraq before 2003 and Syria before the civil war, and Egypt. Now they're being mercilessly slaughtered in Iraq and Syria. But even before that, that it was various forms of persecution, genocide by Ottomans, and deportation by old Arab and Persian monarchs, just in the 20th century alone.
So you can see in this region, especially in the last decade, why minority religions in Muslim countries are extremely fearful, and why the Jews in Israel are extremely committed to protecting themselves. The downside of this is it has even before Israel was founded developed a highly nationalistic, ethnocentric, and martial culture that gives less care than they should to damage to civilians in warfare and other matters. If it weren't for the fact that practically every nation but the US condemns them, it wouldn't surprise me if the Israelis were far more aggressive and destructive. It's certainly within their interests, as the one safe place in the Mideast for non-Muslims, to do so. But there must be a balance. Fears and jingoism cannot lead to unjustifiable degrees of violence, and they need to stop puffing their chests because the US backs them to the hilt. Perhaps they should humbly realize that if not for the US, they'd be getting slapped with sanctions like crazy. It would sober them up, to say the least. But, they hold all the cards in this scenario and largely control the conflict. They can do more to prevent infrastructural destruction and death.
There is a significant jewish community in Iran, and even jewish deputee. Israel is not committed to protecting themselves, their commited to taking the land of their eretz israel, and plenty of people gave facts to support this point - going from statement from israeli high officials/politicians, arguments from political individuals such as Jimmy Carter, or even the charter of the Likud party. It is not about security, it is about creating a jewish state.
Most of the Jews departed in the 40s/50s when Muslim monarchs decided it was a good idea to get rid of them, so they fled to Israel and the US, in particular Iranian Jews. Most of the remainder of Iranian Christians and Jews fled (and smartly so) when Jihadlord Khomeini took over in Iran. There's a significantly lower number of Jews in Iran than there were in 1948. There were over 100k back then. Now, there's estimates of ~30,000 but I remember seeing something a year ago from census data the reported less than 10,000. It is still a precarious situation there, and if we go back, was hostile in the years of Khomeini's takeover. Fortunately (or unfortunately), he was more intent on vengeance and attempting to conquer the Shiite holy cities than he was on persecuting non-Muslims too much.
I noted the overaggression of Israel, but the daily happenings in the Mideast and politics of many of the Mideastern Muslim states are enough to drive any Israeli to shitting their pants if they were to think about it too much. And things are only growing worse. The Islamic Revolution (which overthrew Iran's secular order and installed a jihad-focused regime), the embargo and following Iraq War (Iraq was the strongly dedicated anti-Islamist state in the region) and the Arab Spring (which have replaced stable secular regimes with Islamic extremists) have been monumentally disastrous for the Middle East and for the climate for Israel. The Jewish state has been around for 66 years. It has been created long ago. But what do you suggest? That it be dismantled? That Jews in the Mideast suffer the same fate as their Christian counterparts? No thanks. Sadly, we cannot simply change the history of things. We cannot erase the British/American and Spanish conquests of the native nations of the New World, just like we cannot erase the establishment of Israel by desperate and enraged Zionists. We must focus on the present.
I suggest they stop their colonialism. I'm not against the reality of Israel because doing so would be against my own value : ethnical cleansing and massacre, just like Israel has done and is doing. And the 4th military power in the world, armed with the nuclear bomb, doesn't fear anything from people who have no tanks nor airforce.
Given the political culture, I fear the colonialism won't stop. Sanctions would sober them and have them realize their mortality, but the US and AIPAC would never allow that to happen. Who's fearful of Palestinians? Rather, there's something to fear when you have countries like Egypt completely swagged out by the US who've held a precarious peace with Israel thanks to US money, a nation founded by jihad just a few countries to the east, and volatile Gulf oil sheikhs who don't know what to do with their infinite money besides supporting terrorists.
I agree with part of your statements, but saying that they fear about their neighbour is a bit disingenuous to me because the tension everybody feel towards them is largely due to their own policy. Considering the amount of unstability in the middle east they are not receiving any threat from Iraq or Syria, so it's safe to say that if they finally ended their desire to acquire palestinians territory and accepted to settle, things could desescalate from there and we could foresee a true peace in the next decade.
Btw I didn't respond but Khomeni declared a fatwa on protecting the jews in Iran, so they were far from wanting to persecute them.
On August 03 2014 04:10 Big J wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:50 WhiteDog wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:43 Big J wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:34 WhiteDog wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:27 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: [quote] Wow really good piece. But you can see where Israel is coming from. Unfortunately, not being Muslim in the Mideast/N. Africa is an absolute nightmare. The only period of peace for minority religions was in the former secular republics, like Lebanon at various points, Iraq before 2003 and Syria before the civil war, and Egypt. Now they're being mercilessly slaughtered in Iraq and Syria. But even before that, that it was various forms of persecution, genocide by Ottomans, and deportation by old Arab and Persian monarchs, just in the 20th century alone.
So you can see in this region, especially in the last decade, why minority religions in Muslim countries are extremely fearful, and why the Jews in Israel are extremely committed to protecting themselves. The downside of this is it has even before Israel was founded developed a highly nationalistic, ethnocentric, and martial culture that gives less care than they should to damage to civilians in warfare and other matters. If it weren't for the fact that practically every nation but the US condemns them, it wouldn't surprise me if the Israelis were far more aggressive and destructive. It's certainly within their interests, as the one safe place in the Mideast for non-Muslims, to do so. But there must be a balance. Fears and jingoism cannot lead to unjustifiable degrees of violence, and they need to stop puffing their chests because the US backs them to the hilt. Perhaps they should humbly realize that if not for the US, they'd be getting slapped with sanctions like crazy. It would sober them up, to say the least. But, they hold all the cards in this scenario and largely control the conflict. They can do more to prevent infrastructural destruction and death.
There is a significant jewish community in Iran, and even a jewish deputee. Israel is not committed to protecting themselves, they are commited to taking the land of their eretz israel, and plenty of people gave facts to support this point - going from statement from israeli high officials/politicians, arguments from political individuals such as Jimmy Carter, or even the charter of the Likud party. It is not about security, it is about creating and expanding their jewish state.
Yeah, and exactly the same evidence can be given for Palestina (and other nations in that region) not seeking peace and friendly relations with israel, but that they want to extinct that nation and conquer their land.
Palestine ? They are negociating since years, they already accepted all demands from Kerry and it's Israel who refused in the last peace talks... Show me the facts.
Prefixing: I did not imply that they are not negotiating, nor do I say or believe anything like that. My point is solely that there are quotes and that there is evidence for both sides demanding the other parties land. And in the same spirit of arguing "they are negotiating, so they cannot mean to destroy Israel", you can say "Israel gave the land to them, so they cannot mean to reconquer it". Below the quotes that you are seeking:
Hamas official Halil Al-Hayya, Al-Hayat newspaper, November 11, 2010 "The lie of the Zionist Holocaust crumbles with countless holocausts committed by the Zionists in Beit Hanoun, al-Fakhoura school and other places in Palestine." "Palestine is Islamic, and not an Islamic emirate, from the river to the sea, that unites the Palestinians. Jews have no right in it, with the exception of those who lived on the land of Palestine before World War I."
Hamas leader Mahmoud Al-Zahhar, Future News TV, June 15, 2010, Source: MEMRI.org "We have liberated Gaza, but have we recognized Israel? Have we given up our lands occupied in 1948? We demand the liberation of the West Bank, and the establishment of a state in the West Bank and Gaza, with Jerusalem as its capital – but without recognizing [Israel]. This is the key – without recognizing the Israeli enemy on a single inch of land... "Our plan for this stage is to liberate any inch of Palestinian land, and to establish a state on it. Our ultimate plan is [to have] Palestine in its entirety. I say this loud and clear so that nobody will accuse me of employing political tactics. We will not recognize the Israeli enemy. "
Sheikh Dr. Ahmad Bahar, acting Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council, April 20, 2007; as reported by Palestinian Media Watch, April 23, 2007 "This is Islam, that was ahead of its time with regards to human rights in the treatment of prisoners, but our nation was tested by the cancerous lump, that is the Jews, in the heart of the Arab nation... Be certain that America is on its way to utter destruction, America is wallowing [in blood] today in Iraq and Afghanistan, America is defeated and Israel is defeated, and was defeated in Lebanon and Palestine... Make us victorious over the community of infidels... Allah, take the Jews and their allies, Allah, take the Americans and their allies... Allah, annihilate them completely and do not leave anyone of them."
You gave no fact that palestinians refuse peace, you only quoted things from Hamas. Hamas is not palestine, it does not even represent the majority of Gazans. Jimmy Carter quoted several pools showing gazans are, in majority, for peace and a settlement base on the two state solution. He talk about it somewhere in this conference at Brandeis university :
Then quote one person that represents the majority of Israel. And PROOF that he represents the majority of them. Not argue. PROOF!
And the Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council is not a Hamas function...
The Likud is the dominant party in Israel. Netanyahu has 85 % approval rate or something ridiculous like that. Note that Israel has a government and a state, unlike Palestinian.
c. “The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.”
d. “The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.”
Just a couple short facts: Netanyahu doesn't have 85% support in israel (or even close to that), elections in israel are party based, meaning the most powerful party gets to try and assemble a coalition headed by the head of that party. In the last election Netanyahu even had to join his party with another right wing party in order to attain this status which he otherwise wouldn't have had.
Second, Hammas does technically represent the majority of gazans at the time of their first democratic elections several years ago. It is however correct to say that Hammas doesn't represent all Palestinians, since the "Fatah" party is the governing body in the west bank (The other palestinian territory near jerusalem).
The reason as to why gaza is directly behind Hammas is because they are resisting, but most gazans are for the two state solution and I gave proof of that in Jimmy Carter's Brandeis conference. Gaza has been elected with less than 45 % of the voter I believe, so they are not representing the majority.
Big J I don't know what you are talking about, when I'm quoting the charter of the Likud party that says we do not acknowledge palestine it is a proof not an argument, but I guess a proof can be an argument, an argument can be a proof, and a wolf can be chicken as long as your eyes see it that way.
The article you linked says he's at 40% approval rate right now. I live in Israel and I can tell you there is absolutely no chance in hell he has anywhere close to 85% approval.
On August 03 2014 03:34 WhiteDog wrote: [quote] There is a significant jewish community in Iran, and even a jewish deputee. Israel is not committed to protecting themselves, they are commited to taking the land of their eretz israel, and plenty of people gave facts to support this point - going from statement from israeli high officials/politicians, arguments from political individuals such as Jimmy Carter, or even the charter of the Likud party. It is not about security, it is about creating and expanding their jewish state.
Yeah, and exactly the same evidence can be given for Palestina (and other nations in that region) not seeking peace and friendly relations with israel, but that they want to extinct that nation and conquer their land.
Palestine ? They are negociating since years, they already accepted all demands from Kerry and it's Israel who refused in the last peace talks... Show me the facts.
On August 03 2014 03:47 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:34 WhiteDog wrote: [quote] There is a significant jewish community in Iran, and even jewish deputee. Israel is not committed to protecting themselves, their commited to taking the land of their eretz israel, and plenty of people gave facts to support this point - going from statement from israeli high officials/politicians, arguments from political individuals such as Jimmy Carter, or even the charter of the Likud party. It is not about security, it is about creating a jewish state.
Most of the Jews departed in the 40s/50s when Muslim monarchs decided it was a good idea to get rid of them, so they fled to Israel and the US, in particular Iranian Jews. Most of the remainder of Iranian Christians and Jews fled (and smartly so) when Jihadlord Khomeini took over in Iran. There's a significantly lower number of Jews in Iran than there were in 1948. There were over 100k back then. Now, there's estimates of ~30,000 but I remember seeing something a year ago from census data the reported less than 10,000. It is still a precarious situation there, and if we go back, was hostile in the years of Khomeini's takeover. Fortunately (or unfortunately), he was more intent on vengeance and attempting to conquer the Shiite holy cities than he was on persecuting non-Muslims too much.
I noted the overaggression of Israel, but the daily happenings in the Mideast and politics of many of the Mideastern Muslim states are enough to drive any Israeli to shitting their pants if they were to think about it too much. And things are only growing worse. The Islamic Revolution (which overthrew Iran's secular order and installed a jihad-focused regime), the embargo and following Iraq War (Iraq was the strongly dedicated anti-Islamist state in the region) and the Arab Spring (which have replaced stable secular regimes with Islamic extremists) have been monumentally disastrous for the Middle East and for the climate for Israel. The Jewish state has been around for 66 years. It has been created long ago. But what do you suggest? That it be dismantled? That Jews in the Mideast suffer the same fate as their Christian counterparts? No thanks. Sadly, we cannot simply change the history of things. We cannot erase the British/American and Spanish conquests of the native nations of the New World, just like we cannot erase the establishment of Israel by desperate and enraged Zionists. We must focus on the present.
I suggest they stop their colonialism. I'm not against the reality of Israel because doing so would be against my own value : ethnical cleansing and massacre, just like Israel has done and is doing. And the 4th military power in the world, armed with the nuclear bomb, doesn't fear anything from people who have no tanks nor airforce.
Given the political culture, I fear the colonialism won't stop. Sanctions would sober them and have them realize their mortality, but the US and AIPAC would never allow that to happen. Who's fearful of Palestinians? Rather, there's something to fear when you have countries like Egypt completely swagged out by the US who've held a precarious peace with Israel thanks to US money, a nation founded by jihad just a few countries to the east, and volatile Gulf oil sheikhs who don't know what to do with their infinite money besides supporting terrorists.
I agree with part of your statements, but saying that they fear about their neighbour is a bit disingenuous to me because the tension everybody feel towards them is largely due to their own policy. Considering the amount of unstability in the middle east they are not receiving any threat from Iraq or Syria, so it's safe to say that if they finally ended their desire to acquire palestinians territory and accepted to settle, things could desescalate from there and we could foresee a true peace in the next decade.
Btw I didn't respond but Khomeni declared a fatwa on protecting the jews in Iran, so they were far from wanting to persecute them.
On August 03 2014 04:10 Big J wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:50 WhiteDog wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:43 Big J wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:34 WhiteDog wrote: [quote] There is a significant jewish community in Iran, and even a jewish deputee. Israel is not committed to protecting themselves, they are commited to taking the land of their eretz israel, and plenty of people gave facts to support this point - going from statement from israeli high officials/politicians, arguments from political individuals such as Jimmy Carter, or even the charter of the Likud party. It is not about security, it is about creating and expanding their jewish state.
Yeah, and exactly the same evidence can be given for Palestina (and other nations in that region) not seeking peace and friendly relations with israel, but that they want to extinct that nation and conquer their land.
Palestine ? They are negociating since years, they already accepted all demands from Kerry and it's Israel who refused in the last peace talks... Show me the facts.
Prefixing: I did not imply that they are not negotiating, nor do I say or believe anything like that. My point is solely that there are quotes and that there is evidence for both sides demanding the other parties land. And in the same spirit of arguing "they are negotiating, so they cannot mean to destroy Israel", you can say "Israel gave the land to them, so they cannot mean to reconquer it". Below the quotes that you are seeking:
Hamas official Halil Al-Hayya, Al-Hayat newspaper, November 11, 2010 "The lie of the Zionist Holocaust crumbles with countless holocausts committed by the Zionists in Beit Hanoun, al-Fakhoura school and other places in Palestine." "Palestine is Islamic, and not an Islamic emirate, from the river to the sea, that unites the Palestinians. Jews have no right in it, with the exception of those who lived on the land of Palestine before World War I."
Hamas leader Mahmoud Al-Zahhar, Future News TV, June 15, 2010, Source: MEMRI.org "We have liberated Gaza, but have we recognized Israel? Have we given up our lands occupied in 1948? We demand the liberation of the West Bank, and the establishment of a state in the West Bank and Gaza, with Jerusalem as its capital – but without recognizing [Israel]. This is the key – without recognizing the Israeli enemy on a single inch of land... "Our plan for this stage is to liberate any inch of Palestinian land, and to establish a state on it. Our ultimate plan is [to have] Palestine in its entirety. I say this loud and clear so that nobody will accuse me of employing political tactics. We will not recognize the Israeli enemy. "
Sheikh Dr. Ahmad Bahar, acting Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council, April 20, 2007; as reported by Palestinian Media Watch, April 23, 2007 "This is Islam, that was ahead of its time with regards to human rights in the treatment of prisoners, but our nation was tested by the cancerous lump, that is the Jews, in the heart of the Arab nation... Be certain that America is on its way to utter destruction, America is wallowing [in blood] today in Iraq and Afghanistan, America is defeated and Israel is defeated, and was defeated in Lebanon and Palestine... Make us victorious over the community of infidels... Allah, take the Jews and their allies, Allah, take the Americans and their allies... Allah, annihilate them completely and do not leave anyone of them."
You gave no fact that palestinians refuse peace, you only quoted things from Hamas. Hamas is not palestine, it does not even represent the majority of Gazans. Jimmy Carter quoted several pools showing gazans are, in majority, for peace and a settlement base on the two state solution. He talk about it somewhere in this conference at Brandeis university :
Then quote one person that represents the majority of Israel. And PROOF that he represents the majority of them. Not argue. PROOF!
And the Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council is not a Hamas function...
The Likud is the dominant party in Israel. Netanyahu has 85 % approval rate or something ridiculous like that. Note that Israel has a government and a state, unlike Palestinian.
c. “The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.”
d. “The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.”
Just a couple short facts: Netanyahu doesn't have 85% support in israel (or even close to that), elections in israel are party based, meaning the most powerful party gets to try and assemble a coalition headed by the head of that party. In the last election Netanyahu even had to join his party with another right wing party in order to attain this status which he otherwise wouldn't have had.
Second, Hammas does technically represent the majority of gazans at the time of their first democratic elections several years ago. It is however correct to say that Hammas doesn't represent all Palestinians, since the "Fatah" party is the governing body in the west bank (The other palestinian territory near jerusalem).
The reason as to why gaza is directly behind Hammas is because they are resisting, but most gazans are for the two state solution and I gave proof of that in Jimmy Carter's Brandeis conference. Gaza has been elected with less than 45 % of the voter I believe, so they are not representing the majority.
Big J I don't know what you are talking about, when I'm quoting the charter of the Likud party that says we do not acknowledge palestine it is a proof not an argument, but I guess a proof can be an argument, an argument can be a proof, and a wolf can be chicken as long as your eyes see it that way.
The article you linked says he's at 40% approval rate right now. I live in Israel and I can tell you there is absolutely no chance in hell he has anywhere close to 85% approval.
Seems I wrongly read my bad. The support for the attack on gaza mislead me.
Yeah, and exactly the same evidence can be given for Palestina (and other nations in that region) not seeking peace and friendly relations with israel, but that they want to extinct that nation and conquer their land.
Palestine ? They are negociating since years, they already accepted all demands from Kerry and it's Israel who refused in the last peace talks... Show me the facts.
On August 03 2014 03:47 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: [quote] Most of the Jews departed in the 40s/50s when Muslim monarchs decided it was a good idea to get rid of them, so they fled to Israel and the US, in particular Iranian Jews. Most of the remainder of Iranian Christians and Jews fled (and smartly so) when Jihadlord Khomeini took over in Iran. There's a significantly lower number of Jews in Iran than there were in 1948. There were over 100k back then. Now, there's estimates of ~30,000 but I remember seeing something a year ago from census data the reported less than 10,000. It is still a precarious situation there, and if we go back, was hostile in the years of Khomeini's takeover. Fortunately (or unfortunately), he was more intent on vengeance and attempting to conquer the Shiite holy cities than he was on persecuting non-Muslims too much.
I noted the overaggression of Israel, but the daily happenings in the Mideast and politics of many of the Mideastern Muslim states are enough to drive any Israeli to shitting their pants if they were to think about it too much. And things are only growing worse. The Islamic Revolution (which overthrew Iran's secular order and installed a jihad-focused regime), the embargo and following Iraq War (Iraq was the strongly dedicated anti-Islamist state in the region) and the Arab Spring (which have replaced stable secular regimes with Islamic extremists) have been monumentally disastrous for the Middle East and for the climate for Israel. The Jewish state has been around for 66 years. It has been created long ago. But what do you suggest? That it be dismantled? That Jews in the Mideast suffer the same fate as their Christian counterparts? No thanks. Sadly, we cannot simply change the history of things. We cannot erase the British/American and Spanish conquests of the native nations of the New World, just like we cannot erase the establishment of Israel by desperate and enraged Zionists. We must focus on the present.
I suggest they stop their colonialism. I'm not against the reality of Israel because doing so would be against my own value : ethnical cleansing and massacre, just like Israel has done and is doing. And the 4th military power in the world, armed with the nuclear bomb, doesn't fear anything from people who have no tanks nor airforce.
Given the political culture, I fear the colonialism won't stop. Sanctions would sober them and have them realize their mortality, but the US and AIPAC would never allow that to happen. Who's fearful of Palestinians? Rather, there's something to fear when you have countries like Egypt completely swagged out by the US who've held a precarious peace with Israel thanks to US money, a nation founded by jihad just a few countries to the east, and volatile Gulf oil sheikhs who don't know what to do with their infinite money besides supporting terrorists.
I agree with part of your statements, but saying that they fear about their neighbour is a bit disingenuous to me because the tension everybody feel towards them is largely due to their own policy. Considering the amount of unstability in the middle east they are not receiving any threat from Iraq or Syria, so it's safe to say that if they finally ended their desire to acquire palestinians territory and accepted to settle, things could desescalate from there and we could foresee a true peace in the next decade.
Btw I didn't respond but Khomeni declared a fatwa on protecting the jews in Iran, so they were far from wanting to persecute them.
On August 03 2014 04:10 Big J wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:50 WhiteDog wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:43 Big J wrote: [quote]
Yeah, and exactly the same evidence can be given for Palestina (and other nations in that region) not seeking peace and friendly relations with israel, but that they want to extinct that nation and conquer their land.
Palestine ? They are negociating since years, they already accepted all demands from Kerry and it's Israel who refused in the last peace talks... Show me the facts.
Prefixing: I did not imply that they are not negotiating, nor do I say or believe anything like that. My point is solely that there are quotes and that there is evidence for both sides demanding the other parties land. And in the same spirit of arguing "they are negotiating, so they cannot mean to destroy Israel", you can say "Israel gave the land to them, so they cannot mean to reconquer it". Below the quotes that you are seeking:
Hamas official Halil Al-Hayya, Al-Hayat newspaper, November 11, 2010 "The lie of the Zionist Holocaust crumbles with countless holocausts committed by the Zionists in Beit Hanoun, al-Fakhoura school and other places in Palestine." "Palestine is Islamic, and not an Islamic emirate, from the river to the sea, that unites the Palestinians. Jews have no right in it, with the exception of those who lived on the land of Palestine before World War I."
Hamas leader Mahmoud Al-Zahhar, Future News TV, June 15, 2010, Source: MEMRI.org "We have liberated Gaza, but have we recognized Israel? Have we given up our lands occupied in 1948? We demand the liberation of the West Bank, and the establishment of a state in the West Bank and Gaza, with Jerusalem as its capital – but without recognizing [Israel]. This is the key – without recognizing the Israeli enemy on a single inch of land... "Our plan for this stage is to liberate any inch of Palestinian land, and to establish a state on it. Our ultimate plan is [to have] Palestine in its entirety. I say this loud and clear so that nobody will accuse me of employing political tactics. We will not recognize the Israeli enemy. "
Sheikh Dr. Ahmad Bahar, acting Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council, April 20, 2007; as reported by Palestinian Media Watch, April 23, 2007 "This is Islam, that was ahead of its time with regards to human rights in the treatment of prisoners, but our nation was tested by the cancerous lump, that is the Jews, in the heart of the Arab nation... Be certain that America is on its way to utter destruction, America is wallowing [in blood] today in Iraq and Afghanistan, America is defeated and Israel is defeated, and was defeated in Lebanon and Palestine... Make us victorious over the community of infidels... Allah, take the Jews and their allies, Allah, take the Americans and their allies... Allah, annihilate them completely and do not leave anyone of them."
You gave no fact that palestinians refuse peace, you only quoted things from Hamas. Hamas is not palestine, it does not even represent the majority of Gazans. Jimmy Carter quoted several pools showing gazans are, in majority, for peace and a settlement base on the two state solution. He talk about it somewhere in this conference at Brandeis university :
Then quote one person that represents the majority of Israel. And PROOF that he represents the majority of them. Not argue. PROOF!
And the Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council is not a Hamas function...
The Likud is the dominant party in Israel. Netanyahu has 85 % approval rate or something ridiculous like that. Note that Israel has a government and a state, unlike Palestinian.
c. “The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.”
d. “The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.”
Just a couple short facts: Netanyahu doesn't have 85% support in israel (or even close to that), elections in israel are party based, meaning the most powerful party gets to try and assemble a coalition headed by the head of that party. In the last election Netanyahu even had to join his party with another right wing party in order to attain this status which he otherwise wouldn't have had.
Second, Hammas does technically represent the majority of gazans at the time of their first democratic elections several years ago. It is however correct to say that Hammas doesn't represent all Palestinians, since the "Fatah" party is the governing body in the west bank (The other palestinian territory near jerusalem).
The reason as to why gaza is directly behind Hammas is because they are resisting, but most gazans are for the two state solution and I gave proof of that in Jimmy Carter's Brandeis conference. Gaza has been elected with less than 45 % of the voter I believe, so they are not representing the majority.
Big J I don't know what you are talking about, when I'm quoting the charter of the Likud party that says we do not acknowledge palestine it is a proof not an argument, but I guess a proof can be an argument, an argument can be a proof, and a wolf can be chicken as long as your eyes see it that way.
The article you linked says he's at 40% approval rate right now. I live in Israel and I can tell you there is absolutely no chance in hell he has anywhere close to 85% approval.
Seems I wrongly read my bad.
No problem. Another small thing about the hammas support in Gaza.. I think the situation would be dramatically different (better) for both sides if Fatah prevailed in the election and fighting that occurred in the first elections in Gaza. In Israel many were dismayed that Hammas prevailed.
On August 03 2014 03:50 WhiteDog wrote: [quote] Palestine ? They are negociating since years, they already accepted all demands from Kerry and it's Israel who refused in the last peace talks... Show me the facts.
[quote] I suggest they stop their colonialism. I'm not against the reality of Israel because doing so would be against my own value : ethnical cleansing and massacre, just like Israel has done and is doing. And the 4th military power in the world, armed with the nuclear bomb, doesn't fear anything from people who have no tanks nor airforce.
Given the political culture, I fear the colonialism won't stop. Sanctions would sober them and have them realize their mortality, but the US and AIPAC would never allow that to happen. Who's fearful of Palestinians? Rather, there's something to fear when you have countries like Egypt completely swagged out by the US who've held a precarious peace with Israel thanks to US money, a nation founded by jihad just a few countries to the east, and volatile Gulf oil sheikhs who don't know what to do with their infinite money besides supporting terrorists.
I agree with part of your statements, but saying that they fear about their neighbour is a bit disingenuous to me because the tension everybody feel towards them is largely due to their own policy. Considering the amount of unstability in the middle east they are not receiving any threat from Iraq or Syria, so it's safe to say that if they finally ended their desire to acquire palestinians territory and accepted to settle, things could desescalate from there and we could foresee a true peace in the next decade.
Btw I didn't respond but Khomeni declared a fatwa on protecting the jews in Iran, so they were far from wanting to persecute them.
On August 03 2014 04:10 Big J wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:50 WhiteDog wrote: [quote] Palestine ? They are negociating since years, they already accepted all demands from Kerry and it's Israel who refused in the last peace talks... Show me the facts.
Prefixing: I did not imply that they are not negotiating, nor do I say or believe anything like that. My point is solely that there are quotes and that there is evidence for both sides demanding the other parties land. And in the same spirit of arguing "they are negotiating, so they cannot mean to destroy Israel", you can say "Israel gave the land to them, so they cannot mean to reconquer it". Below the quotes that you are seeking:
Hamas official Halil Al-Hayya, Al-Hayat newspaper, November 11, 2010 "The lie of the Zionist Holocaust crumbles with countless holocausts committed by the Zionists in Beit Hanoun, al-Fakhoura school and other places in Palestine." "Palestine is Islamic, and not an Islamic emirate, from the river to the sea, that unites the Palestinians. Jews have no right in it, with the exception of those who lived on the land of Palestine before World War I."
Hamas leader Mahmoud Al-Zahhar, Future News TV, June 15, 2010, Source: MEMRI.org "We have liberated Gaza, but have we recognized Israel? Have we given up our lands occupied in 1948? We demand the liberation of the West Bank, and the establishment of a state in the West Bank and Gaza, with Jerusalem as its capital – but without recognizing [Israel]. This is the key – without recognizing the Israeli enemy on a single inch of land... "Our plan for this stage is to liberate any inch of Palestinian land, and to establish a state on it. Our ultimate plan is [to have] Palestine in its entirety. I say this loud and clear so that nobody will accuse me of employing political tactics. We will not recognize the Israeli enemy. "
Sheikh Dr. Ahmad Bahar, acting Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council, April 20, 2007; as reported by Palestinian Media Watch, April 23, 2007 "This is Islam, that was ahead of its time with regards to human rights in the treatment of prisoners, but our nation was tested by the cancerous lump, that is the Jews, in the heart of the Arab nation... Be certain that America is on its way to utter destruction, America is wallowing [in blood] today in Iraq and Afghanistan, America is defeated and Israel is defeated, and was defeated in Lebanon and Palestine... Make us victorious over the community of infidels... Allah, take the Jews and their allies, Allah, take the Americans and their allies... Allah, annihilate them completely and do not leave anyone of them."
You gave no fact that palestinians refuse peace, you only quoted things from Hamas. Hamas is not palestine, it does not even represent the majority of Gazans. Jimmy Carter quoted several pools showing gazans are, in majority, for peace and a settlement base on the two state solution. He talk about it somewhere in this conference at Brandeis university :
Then quote one person that represents the majority of Israel. And PROOF that he represents the majority of them. Not argue. PROOF!
And the Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council is not a Hamas function...
The Likud is the dominant party in Israel. Netanyahu has 85 % approval rate or something ridiculous like that. Note that Israel has a government and a state, unlike Palestinian.
c. “The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.”
d. “The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.”
Just a couple short facts: Netanyahu doesn't have 85% support in israel (or even close to that), elections in israel are party based, meaning the most powerful party gets to try and assemble a coalition headed by the head of that party. In the last election Netanyahu even had to join his party with another right wing party in order to attain this status which he otherwise wouldn't have had.
Second, Hammas does technically represent the majority of gazans at the time of their first democratic elections several years ago. It is however correct to say that Hammas doesn't represent all Palestinians, since the "Fatah" party is the governing body in the west bank (The other palestinian territory near jerusalem).
The reason as to why gaza is directly behind Hammas is because they are resisting, but most gazans are for the two state solution and I gave proof of that in Jimmy Carter's Brandeis conference. Gaza has been elected with less than 45 % of the voter I believe, so they are not representing the majority.
Big J I don't know what you are talking about, when I'm quoting the charter of the Likud party that says we do not acknowledge palestine it is a proof not an argument, but I guess a proof can be an argument, an argument can be a proof, and a wolf can be chicken as long as your eyes see it that way.
The article you linked says he's at 40% approval rate right now. I live in Israel and I can tell you there is absolutely no chance in hell he has anywhere close to 85% approval.
Seems I wrongly read my bad.
No problem. Another small thing about the hammas support in Gaza.. I think the situation would be dramatically different (better) for both sides if Fatah prevailed in the election and fighting that occurred in the first elections in Gaza. In Israel many were dismayed that Hammas prevailed.
The problem is, as the blockade goes on, considering the poverty, and now the war and the death of civilians, gazans and even palestinians overall go further and further away from the fatah (because it has completly let down any idea of resistance) and go pro hammas (and even against the two state solution which is the most frightening thing). Everybody knows the Hamas is a problem more than a solution for palestinians, but you cannot ask for a people to just lay down their weapons when they feel - rightly from my perspective - that they are being killed and expulsed from their land illegally.
On August 03 2014 04:53 WhiteDog wrote: Big J I don't know what you are talking about, when I'm quoting the charter of the Likud party that says we do not acknowledge palestine it is a proof not an argument, but I guess a proof can be an argument, an argument can be a proof, and a wolf can be chicken as long as your eyes see it that way.
It's a proof for what? For that, the Likud said that. That's right. When I quote that some Hamas guy is for the destruction of Israel, it's also a proof that some Hamas guy said that.
Neither is a proof that either side - Israel or Palestine - is currently seeking to achieve that or will in the future. It's only an argument that it might be like that.
The illegal settlements are proof that they want to colonize part of the west bank (if not entirely) or not ? Or arguments ?
Am I the only one disturbed by the pro Isreal argument that because Hamas was voted into power, it is perfectly fine to kill civilians in the gaza strip?
On August 03 2014 05:14 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Am I the only one disturbed by the pro Isreal argument that because Hamas was voted into power, it is perfectly fine to kill civilians in the gaza strip?
No.
And Whitedog: When you say "they want to colonize", you're kind of generalizing. The policy of settling outside of the official borders of Israel has been supported by some Israeli governments and strongly resisted by others. Also the "settlers" are a minority in Israel and are seen in a negative light by many in Israel.
The ideology of settling beyond the borders of Israel is held by a small fanatic minority, and are supported for political reasons by the governments/other Israelis. The removal of the settlements or the stoppage of construction is then used as political leverage in negotiations or to gain diplomatic leeway.
On August 03 2014 05:14 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Am I the only one disturbed by the pro Isreal argument that because Hamas was voted into power, it is perfectly fine to kill civilians in the gaza strip?
No.
And Whitedog: When you say "they want to colonize", you're kind of generalizing. The policy of settling outside of the official borders of Israel has been supported by some Israeli governments and strongly resisted by others. Also the "settlers" are a minority in Israel and are seen in a negative light by many in Israel.
The ideology of settling beyond the borders of Israel is held by a small fanatic minority, and are supported for political reasons by the governments/other Israelis. The removal of the settlements or the stoppage of construction is then used as political leverage in negotiations or to gain diplomatic leeway.
Glad to hear that most Israeli disagree with settlement, but those settlements are not political leverage, it's a collective suicide. You cannot make peace with someone if, at the same time, you're breaking precedent treaty.
On August 03 2014 04:00 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: [quote] Given the political culture, I fear the colonialism won't stop. Sanctions would sober them and have them realize their mortality, but the US and AIPAC would never allow that to happen. Who's fearful of Palestinians? Rather, there's something to fear when you have countries like Egypt completely swagged out by the US who've held a precarious peace with Israel thanks to US money, a nation founded by jihad just a few countries to the east, and volatile Gulf oil sheikhs who don't know what to do with their infinite money besides supporting terrorists.
I agree with part of your statements, but saying that they fear about their neighbour is a bit disingenuous to me because the tension everybody feel towards them is largely due to their own policy. Considering the amount of unstability in the middle east they are not receiving any threat from Iraq or Syria, so it's safe to say that if they finally ended their desire to acquire palestinians territory and accepted to settle, things could desescalate from there and we could foresee a true peace in the next decade.
Btw I didn't respond but Khomeni declared a fatwa on protecting the jews in Iran, so they were far from wanting to persecute them.
On August 03 2014 04:10 Big J wrote: [quote]
Prefixing: I did not imply that they are not negotiating, nor do I say or believe anything like that. My point is solely that there are quotes and that there is evidence for both sides demanding the other parties land. And in the same spirit of arguing "they are negotiating, so they cannot mean to destroy Israel", you can say "Israel gave the land to them, so they cannot mean to reconquer it". Below the quotes that you are seeking:
Hamas official Halil Al-Hayya, Al-Hayat newspaper, November 11, 2010 "The lie of the Zionist Holocaust crumbles with countless holocausts committed by the Zionists in Beit Hanoun, al-Fakhoura school and other places in Palestine." "Palestine is Islamic, and not an Islamic emirate, from the river to the sea, that unites the Palestinians. Jews have no right in it, with the exception of those who lived on the land of Palestine before World War I."
Hamas leader Mahmoud Al-Zahhar, Future News TV, June 15, 2010, Source: MEMRI.org "We have liberated Gaza, but have we recognized Israel? Have we given up our lands occupied in 1948? We demand the liberation of the West Bank, and the establishment of a state in the West Bank and Gaza, with Jerusalem as its capital – but without recognizing [Israel]. This is the key – without recognizing the Israeli enemy on a single inch of land... "Our plan for this stage is to liberate any inch of Palestinian land, and to establish a state on it. Our ultimate plan is [to have] Palestine in its entirety. I say this loud and clear so that nobody will accuse me of employing political tactics. We will not recognize the Israeli enemy. "
Sheikh Dr. Ahmad Bahar, acting Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council, April 20, 2007; as reported by Palestinian Media Watch, April 23, 2007 "This is Islam, that was ahead of its time with regards to human rights in the treatment of prisoners, but our nation was tested by the cancerous lump, that is the Jews, in the heart of the Arab nation... Be certain that America is on its way to utter destruction, America is wallowing [in blood] today in Iraq and Afghanistan, America is defeated and Israel is defeated, and was defeated in Lebanon and Palestine... Make us victorious over the community of infidels... Allah, take the Jews and their allies, Allah, take the Americans and their allies... Allah, annihilate them completely and do not leave anyone of them."
You gave no fact that palestinians refuse peace, you only quoted things from Hamas. Hamas is not palestine, it does not even represent the majority of Gazans. Jimmy Carter quoted several pools showing gazans are, in majority, for peace and a settlement base on the two state solution. He talk about it somewhere in this conference at Brandeis university :
Then quote one person that represents the majority of Israel. And PROOF that he represents the majority of them. Not argue. PROOF!
And the Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council is not a Hamas function...
The Likud is the dominant party in Israel. Netanyahu has 85 % approval rate or something ridiculous like that. Note that Israel has a government and a state, unlike Palestinian.
c. “The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.”
d. “The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.”
Just a couple short facts: Netanyahu doesn't have 85% support in israel (or even close to that), elections in israel are party based, meaning the most powerful party gets to try and assemble a coalition headed by the head of that party. In the last election Netanyahu even had to join his party with another right wing party in order to attain this status which he otherwise wouldn't have had.
Second, Hammas does technically represent the majority of gazans at the time of their first democratic elections several years ago. It is however correct to say that Hammas doesn't represent all Palestinians, since the "Fatah" party is the governing body in the west bank (The other palestinian territory near jerusalem).
The reason as to why gaza is directly behind Hammas is because they are resisting, but most gazans are for the two state solution and I gave proof of that in Jimmy Carter's Brandeis conference. Gaza has been elected with less than 45 % of the voter I believe, so they are not representing the majority.
Big J I don't know what you are talking about, when I'm quoting the charter of the Likud party that says we do not acknowledge palestine it is a proof not an argument, but I guess a proof can be an argument, an argument can be a proof, and a wolf can be chicken as long as your eyes see it that way.
The article you linked says he's at 40% approval rate right now. I live in Israel and I can tell you there is absolutely no chance in hell he has anywhere close to 85% approval.
Seems I wrongly read my bad.
No problem. Another small thing about the hammas support in Gaza.. I think the situation would be dramatically different (better) for both sides if Fatah prevailed in the election and fighting that occurred in the first elections in Gaza. In Israel many were dismayed that Hammas prevailed.
The problem is, as the blockade goes on, considering the powerty, and now the war and the death of civilians, gazans and even palestinians overall go further and further away from the fatah (because it has completly let down any idea of resistance) and pro hammas (and even against the two state solution which is the most frightening thing). Everybody knows the Hamas is a problem more than a solution for palestinians, but you cannot ask for a people to just lay down their weapons when they feel - rightly from my perspective - that they are behind killed and expulsed from their land illegally.
On August 03 2014 04:53 WhiteDog wrote: Big J I don't know what you are talking about, when I'm quoting the charter of the Likud party that says we do not acknowledge palestine it is a proof not an argument, but I guess a proof can be an argument, an argument can be a proof, and a wolf can be chicken as long as your eyes see it that way.
It's a proof for what? For that, the Likud said that. That's right. When I quote that some Hamas guy is for the destruction of Israel, it's also a proof that some Hamas guy said that.
Neither is a proof that either side - Israel or Palestine - is currently seeking to achieve that or will in the future. It's only an argument that it might be like that.
The illegal settlements are proof that they want to colonize part of the west bank (if not entirely) or not ? Or arguments ?
While I tend to agree with your opinion about radicalization of the palestinians, it is worth noting that after the last Gaza War (2008-09), the acceptance for the Hamas in the Gaza Strip actually went down, while it increased in the Westbank. It seems that the people who actually experienced the war went against the war mongering of the Hamas. However, in the long run, and especially for future generations, I'd think that a war like this just creates a hugh opportunity for the radicalization of the population.
Of course such things are perfect grounds for radicalization. Every peace that is unjust for the Palestinians and denies them their basic rights or give them the blame will cause radicalization. That is a law of nature.
Just think at the end of world war I and the Versailles peace accords. EVERY nation that is subjected to unfair treatment/peace is a perfect fertile soil for the seed of radical arguments. Its just like Israeli provide the soil and Hamas the seed and the population reap destruction and mayhem. Like in World War I, the Entente provided the soil and Hitler planted the seeds in the young generation to follow WWI and we know of the horrors that were unleashed in this war.
And Gaza being the largest open air concentration camp on the planet for decades, and Israelis still claiming their "Lebensraum" aka settlements now and then. If Israel continue this path any further, they are in danger of becoming the very evil that was unleashed on them.
If you translate the Israel-Palestine fight into a schoolyard fight, it would look like, Israel kicking the Palestinian boy who is lying on the ground, and feels hurt and mocked and when he spits at Israel to show his anger he gets kicked again.
If Israel does not sincerely start to change its thinking, there will be no change to the situation. The stronger one is in my opinion the most accountable and has to show more responsibility. Israel can not start kicking someone who is already on the floor just because Israel got spit in the face. Israel was once the one lying on the floor and in danger of perishing and it had to use every asset to defend itself, but Israel has failed to realize that the situation now is a different one and it still acts with the same fervor as before.
If Israel does not sincerely start to change its thinking, there will be no change to the situation. The stronger one is in my opinion the most accountable and has to show more responsibility. Israel can not start kicking someone who is already on the floor just because Israel got spit in the face.
It's not just your opinion. Kids with decent parents learn this at age 5 at the latest. The stronger brother can't just kick the shit out of the weaker one, even if "he started it". The stronger one gets scolded for that.
It's called responsibility, discipline and restraint.
You can't exactly equivocate spitting on someone with a rocket landing in Israel and possibly killing someone, but yes they should certainly show more restraint in how they respond to sporadic rocket fire. The problem is Israel (and I think, other countries are no different) don't see Gaza civilians as being the same value as Israeli people; its almost dehumanizing. If there were Israeli civilians living near the areas where rockets were being fired, would Israeli jets fly and bomb them anyway, or would they risk soldiers' lives by sending in a task force? I think it would be the latter.
Well, obviously there's "a bit" of a difference between someone spitting and shooting a rocket. In relation, the example still works. In fact, you could spin it further, with the bully simply lying to justify his actions, etc.
The guys harping about Israel's "right" to do what it's doing, how is this defending them against more rocket attacks (or future fighters willing to die to deal some damage to Israel)
A location which is a point of refuge for civilians and mostly women and children, which is operated by the UN and has also been conveyed to the Israeli government as a point of shelter for already traumatized and displaced civilians.
I am really amazed at how easily so many are just willing to justify each and every thing Israel is doing under the cover of "the Palestinians started it" or "Hamas is hiding bombs everywhere so Israel should bomb everywhere".
On August 02 2014 13:46 darthfoley wrote: A powerful piece written by a Holocaust survivor. It is quite short, and will take no long than a couple of minutes to finish. Highly recommend: Beautiful dream of Israel has become a nightmare
As a Jewish youngster growing up in Budapest, an infant survivor of the Nazi genocide, I was for years haunted by a question resounding in my brain with such force that sometimes my head would spin: “How was it possible? How could the world have let such horrors happen?”
It was a naïve question, that of a child. I know better now: such is reality. Whether in Vietnam or Rwanda or Syria, humanity stands by either complicitly or unconsciously or helplessly, as it always does. In Gaza today we find ways of justifying the bombing of hospitals, the annihilation of families at dinner, the killing of pre-adolescents playing soccer on a beach.
Wow really good piece. But you can see where Israel is coming from. Unfortunately, not being Muslim in the Mideast/N. Africa is an absolute nightmare. The only period of peace for minority religions was in the former secular republics, like Lebanon at various points, Iraq before 2003 and Syria before the civil war, and Egypt. Now they're being mercilessly slaughtered in Iraq and Syria. But even before that, that it was various forms of persecution, genocide by Ottomans, and deportation by old Arab and Persian monarchs, just in the 20th century alone.
So you can see in this region, especially in the last decade, why minority religions in Muslim countries are extremely fearful, and why the Jews in Israel are extremely committed to protecting themselves. The downside of this is it has even before Israel was founded developed a highly nationalistic, ethnocentric, and martial culture that gives less care than they should to damage to civilians in warfare and other matters. If it weren't for the fact that practically every nation but the US condemns them, it wouldn't surprise me if the Israelis were far more aggressive and destructive. It's certainly within their interests, as the one safe place in the Mideast for non-Muslims, to do so. But there must be a balance. Fears and jingoism cannot lead to unjustifiable degrees of violence, and they need to stop puffing their chests because the US backs them to the hilt. Perhaps they should humbly realize that if not for the US, they'd be getting slapped with sanctions like crazy. It would sober them up, to say the least. But, they hold all the cards in this scenario and largely control the conflict. They can do more to prevent infrastructural destruction and death.
There is a significant jewish community in Iran, and even a jewish deputee. Israel is not committed to protecting themselves, they are commited to taking the land of their eretz israel, and plenty of people gave facts to support this point - going from statement from israeli high officials/politicians, arguments from political individuals such as Jimmy Carter, or even the charter of the Likud party. It is not about security, it is about creating and expanding their jewish state.
Yeah, and exactly the same evidence can be given for Palestina (and other nations in that region) not seeking peace and friendly relations with israel, but that they want to extinct that nation and conquer their land.
Palestine ? They are negociating since years, they already accepted all demands from Kerry and it's Israel who refused in the last peace talks... Show me the facts.
On August 03 2014 03:47 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:34 WhiteDog wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:27 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On August 02 2014 13:46 darthfoley wrote: A powerful piece written by a Holocaust survivor. It is quite short, and will take no long than a couple of minutes to finish. Highly recommend: Beautiful dream of Israel has become a nightmare
As a Jewish youngster growing up in Budapest, an infant survivor of the Nazi genocide, I was for years haunted by a question resounding in my brain with such force that sometimes my head would spin: “How was it possible? How could the world have let such horrors happen?”
It was a naïve question, that of a child. I know better now: such is reality. Whether in Vietnam or Rwanda or Syria, humanity stands by either complicitly or unconsciously or helplessly, as it always does. In Gaza today we find ways of justifying the bombing of hospitals, the annihilation of families at dinner, the killing of pre-adolescents playing soccer on a beach.
Wow really good piece. But you can see where Israel is coming from. Unfortunately, not being Muslim in the Mideast/N. Africa is an absolute nightmare. The only period of peace for minority religions was in the former secular republics, like Lebanon at various points, Iraq before 2003 and Syria before the civil war, and Egypt. Now they're being mercilessly slaughtered in Iraq and Syria. But even before that, that it was various forms of persecution, genocide by Ottomans, and deportation by old Arab and Persian monarchs, just in the 20th century alone.
So you can see in this region, especially in the last decade, why minority religions in Muslim countries are extremely fearful, and why the Jews in Israel are extremely committed to protecting themselves. The downside of this is it has even before Israel was founded developed a highly nationalistic, ethnocentric, and martial culture that gives less care than they should to damage to civilians in warfare and other matters. If it weren't for the fact that practically every nation but the US condemns them, it wouldn't surprise me if the Israelis were far more aggressive and destructive. It's certainly within their interests, as the one safe place in the Mideast for non-Muslims, to do so. But there must be a balance. Fears and jingoism cannot lead to unjustifiable degrees of violence, and they need to stop puffing their chests because the US backs them to the hilt. Perhaps they should humbly realize that if not for the US, they'd be getting slapped with sanctions like crazy. It would sober them up, to say the least. But, they hold all the cards in this scenario and largely control the conflict. They can do more to prevent infrastructural destruction and death.
There is a significant jewish community in Iran, and even jewish deputee. Israel is not committed to protecting themselves, their commited to taking the land of their eretz israel, and plenty of people gave facts to support this point - going from statement from israeli high officials/politicians, arguments from political individuals such as Jimmy Carter, or even the charter of the Likud party. It is not about security, it is about creating a jewish state.
Most of the Jews departed in the 40s/50s when Muslim monarchs decided it was a good idea to get rid of them, so they fled to Israel and the US, in particular Iranian Jews. Most of the remainder of Iranian Christians and Jews fled (and smartly so) when Jihadlord Khomeini took over in Iran. There's a significantly lower number of Jews in Iran than there were in 1948. There were over 100k back then. Now, there's estimates of ~30,000 but I remember seeing something a year ago from census data the reported less than 10,000. It is still a precarious situation there, and if we go back, was hostile in the years of Khomeini's takeover. Fortunately (or unfortunately), he was more intent on vengeance and attempting to conquer the Shiite holy cities than he was on persecuting non-Muslims too much.
I noted the overaggression of Israel, but the daily happenings in the Mideast and politics of many of the Mideastern Muslim states are enough to drive any Israeli to shitting their pants if they were to think about it too much. And things are only growing worse. The Islamic Revolution (which overthrew Iran's secular order and installed a jihad-focused regime), the embargo and following Iraq War (Iraq was the strongly dedicated anti-Islamist state in the region) and the Arab Spring (which have replaced stable secular regimes with Islamic extremists) have been monumentally disastrous for the Middle East and for the climate for Israel. The Jewish state has been around for 66 years. It has been created long ago. But what do you suggest? That it be dismantled? That Jews in the Mideast suffer the same fate as their Christian counterparts? No thanks. Sadly, we cannot simply change the history of things. We cannot erase the British/American and Spanish conquests of the native nations of the New World, just like we cannot erase the establishment of Israel by desperate and enraged Zionists. We must focus on the present.
I suggest they stop their colonialism. I'm not against the reality of Israel because doing so would be against my own value : ethnical cleansing and massacre, just like Israel has done and is doing. And the 4th military power in the world, armed with the nuclear bomb, doesn't fear anything from people who have no tanks nor airforce.
Given the political culture, I fear the colonialism won't stop. Sanctions would sober them and have them realize their mortality, but the US and AIPAC would never allow that to happen. Who's fearful of Palestinians? Rather, there's something to fear when you have countries like Egypt completely swagged out by the US who've held a precarious peace with Israel thanks to US money, a nation founded by jihad just a few countries to the east, and volatile Gulf oil sheikhs who don't know what to do with their infinite money besides supporting terrorists.
I agree with part of your statements, but saying that they fear about their neighbour is a bit disingenuous to me because the tension everybody feel towards them is largely due to their own policy. Considering the amount of unstability in the middle east they are not receiving any threat from Iraq or Syria, so it's safe to say that if they finally ended their desire to acquire palestinians territory and accepted to settle, things could desescalate from there and we could foresee a true peace in the next decade.
Btw I didn't respond but Khomeni declared a fatwa on protecting the jews in Iran, so they were far from wanting to persecute them.
Hehehe, did not know this. He.. actually did something half-decent surprisingly. But still, with the Islamic Revolution, many Christians and Jews (smartly) left the country. IMHO, no one in a right state of mind, non-Muslims most of all, would want to live under an Islamic regime.
Syria and Iraq are not the problem. Even if Iraq wasn't put in the stone age over the span of my lifetime, I doubt they'd care too much about Israel compared to jihadists to their east and south. It's the Gulf Arab states, Iran, and especially a currently unpredictable Egypt to worry about. Fortunately, the Islamic Brotherhood does not rule anymore, as they are not very nice about non-Muslims and certainly not about Israel, so we (US) can just keep paying off Sisi like we paid off Mubarak to be cool about everything.
Still, Islamic extremism has been growing exponentially in the Mideast, as I've alluded to in a preceding post. It is no longer about Egypt-Israel political bullshit and shit-flinging like in the 60s-70s wars, in a time when the most influential Muslim nations in the region were also the most secular. Now, there's dangerous groups and nations with a strong ideological motivation to rally against Israel. The situation is even more precarious than it was even 40 years ago. Given the increasingly hostile environment in the Mideast, and the disadvantages of their small size and overwhelming reliance on the US, the Israeli administration has much to be wary of. After all, there are reasons they have a heavily militarized and nationalistic society. They'd crumble otherwise.
On August 03 2014 10:19 iDope wrote: The guys harping about Israel's "right" to do what it's doing, how is this defending them against more rocket attacks (or future fighters willing to die to deal some damage to Israel)
A location which is a point of refuge for civilians and mostly women and children, which is operated by the UN and has also been conveyed to the Israeli government as a point of shelter for already traumatized and displaced civilians.
I am really amazed at how easily so many are just willing to justify each and every thing Israel is doing under the cover of "the Palestinians started it" or "Hamas is hiding bombs everywhere so Israel should bomb everywhere".
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Are you saying "Israel doesn't care about civilians?" If that were true, there would be a lot more civilian deaths than there are now, and Israel would not be invading on foot. Are you saying that Hamas isn't hiding rockets in mosques, schools, and such? We know that to be false. What are you trying to prove? That Israel is, in fact, not perfect, and that it may have made a mistake? Nobody was arguing that.
On August 03 2014 10:19 iDope wrote: The guys harping about Israel's "right" to do what it's doing, how is this defending them against more rocket attacks (or future fighters willing to die to deal some damage to Israel)
A location which is a point of refuge for civilians and mostly women and children, which is operated by the UN and has also been conveyed to the Israeli government as a point of shelter for already traumatized and displaced civilians.
I am really amazed at how easily so many are just willing to justify each and every thing Israel is doing under the cover of "the Palestinians started it" or "Hamas is hiding bombs everywhere so Israel should bomb everywhere".
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Are you saying "Israel doesn't care about civilians?"
EPT
