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On August 03 2014 11:33 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2014 11:02 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 10:19 iDope wrote:The guys harping about Israel's "right" to do what it's doing, how is this defending them against more rocket attacks (or future fighters willing to die to deal some damage to Israel) http://www.un.org/apps/news/infocus/sgspeeches/statments_full.asp?statID=2314#.U9qUwPldV8FA location which is a point of refuge for civilians and mostly women and children, which is operated by the UN and has also been conveyed to the Israeli government as a point of shelter for already traumatized and displaced civilians. I am really amazed at how easily so many are just willing to justify each and every thing Israel is doing under the cover of "the Palestinians started it" or "Hamas is hiding bombs everywhere so Israel should bomb everywhere". I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Are you saying "Israel doesn't care about civilians?" Probably not very much, no.
So then can you explain why they're invading on foot, and not just bombing from the sky?
Can you explain why they call houses and roof knock before they destroy the weapons inside?
Can you explain why they are willing to divert missiles when civilians are around?
Can you explain why Israel is willing to treat non-Israeli refugees in their hospitals?
And don't give me any "They're only doing that because of international pressure". Neither you nor I are able to dig into the heads of the generals to tell what their motivations are. But fact is that Israel is putting in significant effort to lessen civilian casualties.
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On August 03 2014 11:41 soon.Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2014 11:33 hypercube wrote:On August 03 2014 11:02 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 10:19 iDope wrote:The guys harping about Israel's "right" to do what it's doing, how is this defending them against more rocket attacks (or future fighters willing to die to deal some damage to Israel) http://www.un.org/apps/news/infocus/sgspeeches/statments_full.asp?statID=2314#.U9qUwPldV8FA location which is a point of refuge for civilians and mostly women and children, which is operated by the UN and has also been conveyed to the Israeli government as a point of shelter for already traumatized and displaced civilians. I am really amazed at how easily so many are just willing to justify each and every thing Israel is doing under the cover of "the Palestinians started it" or "Hamas is hiding bombs everywhere so Israel should bomb everywhere". I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Are you saying "Israel doesn't care about civilians?" Probably not very much, no. So then can you explain why they're invading on foot, and not just bombing from the sky? Can you explain why they call houses and roof knock before they destroy the weapons inside? Can you explain why they are willing to divert missiles when civilians are around? Can you explain why Israel is willing to treat non-Israeli refugees in their hospitals? And don't give me any "They're only doing that because of international pressure". Neither you nor I are able to dig into the heads of the generals to tell what their motivations are. But fact is that Israel is putting in significant effort to lessen civilian casualties.
Sure, I can. They care a little. But not very much. I had no intention to speculate why they care at all, but thanks for the reminder anyway.
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On August 03 2014 12:02 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2014 11:41 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 11:33 hypercube wrote:On August 03 2014 11:02 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 10:19 iDope wrote:The guys harping about Israel's "right" to do what it's doing, how is this defending them against more rocket attacks (or future fighters willing to die to deal some damage to Israel) http://www.un.org/apps/news/infocus/sgspeeches/statments_full.asp?statID=2314#.U9qUwPldV8FA location which is a point of refuge for civilians and mostly women and children, which is operated by the UN and has also been conveyed to the Israeli government as a point of shelter for already traumatized and displaced civilians. I am really amazed at how easily so many are just willing to justify each and every thing Israel is doing under the cover of "the Palestinians started it" or "Hamas is hiding bombs everywhere so Israel should bomb everywhere". I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Are you saying "Israel doesn't care about civilians?" Probably not very much, no. So then can you explain why they're invading on foot, and not just bombing from the sky? Can you explain why they call houses and roof knock before they destroy the weapons inside? Can you explain why they are willing to divert missiles when civilians are around? Can you explain why Israel is willing to treat non-Israeli refugees in their hospitals? And don't give me any "They're only doing that because of international pressure". Neither you nor I are able to dig into the heads of the generals to tell what their motivations are. But fact is that Israel is putting in significant effort to lessen civilian casualties. Sure, I can. They care a little. But not very much. I had no intention to speculate why they care at all, but thanks for the reminder anyway.
I don't think we'll have a very productive argument about whether they care "not very much" or "a little" or "a lot", but I guess as long as we agree that they care to some extent, and are doing actions as a function of that care, we're somewhere.
And the "reminder" was because I've gotten that response before. Nothing personal. (And happy 2500)
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It's not that the IDF wants to annihilate Gazan civilians or anything, just that they don't care. Hospitals generally treat whoever ends up at their front door. All the other things mentioned can be boiled down to public perception vs actual threat and reward for striking. This is why they still bomb/attack schools and hospitals without apology, but not without discretion. The ground offensive isn't to spare civilians, but to guarantee the destruction of tunnels and weapon caches.
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On August 03 2014 11:41 soon.Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2014 11:33 hypercube wrote:On August 03 2014 11:02 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 10:19 iDope wrote:The guys harping about Israel's "right" to do what it's doing, how is this defending them against more rocket attacks (or future fighters willing to die to deal some damage to Israel) http://www.un.org/apps/news/infocus/sgspeeches/statments_full.asp?statID=2314#.U9qUwPldV8FA location which is a point of refuge for civilians and mostly women and children, which is operated by the UN and has also been conveyed to the Israeli government as a point of shelter for already traumatized and displaced civilians. I am really amazed at how easily so many are just willing to justify each and every thing Israel is doing under the cover of "the Palestinians started it" or "Hamas is hiding bombs everywhere so Israel should bomb everywhere". I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Are you saying "Israel doesn't care about civilians?" Probably not very much, no. So then can you explain why they're invading on foot, and not just bombing from the sky? Can you explain why they call houses and roof knock before they destroy the weapons inside? Can you explain why they are willing to divert missiles when civilians are around? Can you explain why Israel is willing to treat non-Israeli refugees in their hospitals? And don't give me any "They're only doing that because of international pressure". Neither you nor I are able to dig into the heads of the generals to tell what their motivations are. But fact is that Israel is putting in significant effort to lessen civilian casualties.
A flimsy excuse is still an excuse.
Plausible deniability is all you need!
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On August 03 2014 12:24 aksfjh wrote:
All the other things mentioned can be boiled down to public perception vs actual threat and reward for striking.This is why they still bomb/attack schools and hospitals without apology, but not without discretion.
Already anticipated this one...
And don't give me any "They're only doing that because of international pressure". Neither you nor I are able to dig into the heads of the generals to tell what their motivations are. But fact is that Israel is putting in significant effort to lessen civilian casualties.
The ground offensive isn't to spare civilians, but to guarantee the destruction of tunnels and weapon caches.
I would argue it's a combination of both, as has been demonstrated by previous incursions, though I can't prove that this time.
On August 03 2014 12:28 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2014 11:41 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 11:33 hypercube wrote:On August 03 2014 11:02 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 10:19 iDope wrote:The guys harping about Israel's "right" to do what it's doing, how is this defending them against more rocket attacks (or future fighters willing to die to deal some damage to Israel) http://www.un.org/apps/news/infocus/sgspeeches/statments_full.asp?statID=2314#.U9qUwPldV8FA location which is a point of refuge for civilians and mostly women and children, which is operated by the UN and has also been conveyed to the Israeli government as a point of shelter for already traumatized and displaced civilians. I am really amazed at how easily so many are just willing to justify each and every thing Israel is doing under the cover of "the Palestinians started it" or "Hamas is hiding bombs everywhere so Israel should bomb everywhere". I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Are you saying "Israel doesn't care about civilians?" Probably not very much, no. So then can you explain why they're invading on foot, and not just bombing from the sky? Can you explain why they call houses and roof knock before they destroy the weapons inside? Can you explain why they are willing to divert missiles when civilians are around? Can you explain why Israel is willing to treat non-Israeli refugees in their hospitals? And don't give me any "They're only doing that because of international pressure". Neither you nor I are able to dig into the heads of the generals to tell what their motivations are. But fact is that Israel is putting in significant effort to lessen civilian casualties. A flimsy excuse is still an excuse. Plausible deniability is all you need!
What is the "flimsy excuse" that you are referring to?
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On August 03 2014 11:41 soon.Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2014 11:33 hypercube wrote:On August 03 2014 11:02 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 10:19 iDope wrote:The guys harping about Israel's "right" to do what it's doing, how is this defending them against more rocket attacks (or future fighters willing to die to deal some damage to Israel) http://www.un.org/apps/news/infocus/sgspeeches/statments_full.asp?statID=2314#.U9qUwPldV8FA location which is a point of refuge for civilians and mostly women and children, which is operated by the UN and has also been conveyed to the Israeli government as a point of shelter for already traumatized and displaced civilians. I am really amazed at how easily so many are just willing to justify each and every thing Israel is doing under the cover of "the Palestinians started it" or "Hamas is hiding bombs everywhere so Israel should bomb everywhere". I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Are you saying "Israel doesn't care about civilians?" Probably not very much, no. So then can you explain why they're invading on foot, and not just bombing from the sky? Can you explain why they call houses and roof knock before they destroy the weapons inside? Can you explain why they are willing to divert missiles when civilians are around? Can you explain why Israel is willing to treat non-Israeli refugees in their hospitals? And don't give me any "They're only doing that because of international pressure". Neither you nor I are able to dig into the heads of the generals to tell what their motivations are. But fact is that Israel is putting in significant effort to lessen civilian casualties.
What ever the cause, the result is that Hamas' army have done less civilian destruction than Israel.
So in this war, the Israelite army is the lesser moral constitution here.
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On August 03 2014 12:32 soon.Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2014 12:28 ticklishmusic wrote:On August 03 2014 11:41 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 11:33 hypercube wrote:On August 03 2014 11:02 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 10:19 iDope wrote:The guys harping about Israel's "right" to do what it's doing, how is this defending them against more rocket attacks (or future fighters willing to die to deal some damage to Israel) http://www.un.org/apps/news/infocus/sgspeeches/statments_full.asp?statID=2314#.U9qUwPldV8FA location which is a point of refuge for civilians and mostly women and children, which is operated by the UN and has also been conveyed to the Israeli government as a point of shelter for already traumatized and displaced civilians. I am really amazed at how easily so many are just willing to justify each and every thing Israel is doing under the cover of "the Palestinians started it" or "Hamas is hiding bombs everywhere so Israel should bomb everywhere". I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Are you saying "Israel doesn't care about civilians?" Probably not very much, no. So then can you explain why they're invading on foot, and not just bombing from the sky? Can you explain why they call houses and roof knock before they destroy the weapons inside? Can you explain why they are willing to divert missiles when civilians are around? Can you explain why Israel is willing to treat non-Israeli refugees in their hospitals? And don't give me any "They're only doing that because of international pressure". Neither you nor I are able to dig into the heads of the generals to tell what their motivations are. But fact is that Israel is putting in significant effort to lessen civilian casualties. A flimsy excuse is still an excuse. Plausible deniability is all you need! What is the "flimsy excuse" that you are referring to?
Israelis: We totally care about human life! Look, we could just carpet bomb the Gaza Strip to solve our problem with Hamas (or rather, the Palestinians), but instead we're launching strikes on a bunch of locations. The civilian casualties are so low! Instead of 80% being the casualty rate for the entire population of the Gaza Strip, it's just the civilian casualty rate. The absolute number is also much lower, we're doing a great job!
Apologies if this is an inappropriate comparison, but at Auschwitz, the Nazis didn't outright kill the Jews. I mean, they could have carpet bombed that too, but instead they just engineered an environment where it was likely many of them would die (and went through the rather unnecessarily complicated gas chambers). That made them no less culpable from the deaths that ensued.
User was warned for this post
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On August 03 2014 12:35 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2014 11:41 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 11:33 hypercube wrote:On August 03 2014 11:02 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 10:19 iDope wrote:The guys harping about Israel's "right" to do what it's doing, how is this defending them against more rocket attacks (or future fighters willing to die to deal some damage to Israel) http://www.un.org/apps/news/infocus/sgspeeches/statments_full.asp?statID=2314#.U9qUwPldV8FA location which is a point of refuge for civilians and mostly women and children, which is operated by the UN and has also been conveyed to the Israeli government as a point of shelter for already traumatized and displaced civilians. I am really amazed at how easily so many are just willing to justify each and every thing Israel is doing under the cover of "the Palestinians started it" or "Hamas is hiding bombs everywhere so Israel should bomb everywhere". I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Are you saying "Israel doesn't care about civilians?" Probably not very much, no. So then can you explain why they're invading on foot, and not just bombing from the sky? Can you explain why they call houses and roof knock before they destroy the weapons inside? Can you explain why they are willing to divert missiles when civilians are around? Can you explain why Israel is willing to treat non-Israeli refugees in their hospitals? And don't give me any "They're only doing that because of international pressure". Neither you nor I are able to dig into the heads of the generals to tell what their motivations are. But fact is that Israel is putting in significant effort to lessen civilian casualties. What ever the cause, the result is that Hamas' army have done less civilian destruction than Israel. So in this war, the Israelite army is the lesser moral constitution here.
Let me get this straight. You are arguing that the army that does less civilian destruction is the more moral army? Seriously? I just want to confirm that's what you're saying before I bother arguing how unintelligent that is.
On August 03 2014 12:40 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2014 12:32 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 12:28 ticklishmusic wrote:On August 03 2014 11:41 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 11:33 hypercube wrote:On August 03 2014 11:02 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 10:19 iDope wrote:The guys harping about Israel's "right" to do what it's doing, how is this defending them against more rocket attacks (or future fighters willing to die to deal some damage to Israel) http://www.un.org/apps/news/infocus/sgspeeches/statments_full.asp?statID=2314#.U9qUwPldV8FA location which is a point of refuge for civilians and mostly women and children, which is operated by the UN and has also been conveyed to the Israeli government as a point of shelter for already traumatized and displaced civilians. I am really amazed at how easily so many are just willing to justify each and every thing Israel is doing under the cover of "the Palestinians started it" or "Hamas is hiding bombs everywhere so Israel should bomb everywhere". I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Are you saying "Israel doesn't care about civilians?" Probably not very much, no. So then can you explain why they're invading on foot, and not just bombing from the sky? Can you explain why they call houses and roof knock before they destroy the weapons inside? Can you explain why they are willing to divert missiles when civilians are around? Can you explain why Israel is willing to treat non-Israeli refugees in their hospitals? And don't give me any "They're only doing that because of international pressure". Neither you nor I are able to dig into the heads of the generals to tell what their motivations are. But fact is that Israel is putting in significant effort to lessen civilian casualties. A flimsy excuse is still an excuse. Plausible deniability is all you need! What is the "flimsy excuse" that you are referring to? Israelis: We totally care about human life! Look, we could just carpet bomb the Gaza Strip to solve problems, but instead we're launching strikes on a bunch of locations. The civilian casualties are so low! Instead of 80% being the casualty rate for the entire population of the Gaza Strip, it's just the civilian casualty rate. The absolute number is also much lower, we're doing a great job!
You are arguing against an argument I did not make. I said that Israel cares about civilians, as is demonstrated by the lengths they are willing to go to LESSEN civilian casualties. If Israel really did not care about civilians, then the civilian casualty rate would be much higher. I never said that this operation would be perfectly clean, and I don't think anyone can expect that, because of how much Hamas has dug themselves into civilian areas, hiding rockets in schools, mosques, and homes, and because of how dense Gaza is in the first place. So yes, Israel does care about civilian casualties.
Apologies if this is an inappropriate comparison, but at Auschwitz, the Nazis didn't outright kill the Jews. I mean, they could have carpet bombed that too, but instead they just engineered an environment where it was likely many of them would die. That made them no less culpable from the deaths that ensued.
Ya, in spite of your apology, that's a disgusting analogy. Putting Jews in gas chambers isn't "likely many would die". Working Jews to death isn't "just engineered an environment". It's out and out genocide.
Give me an analogy if you want, but don't resort to any comparison between what Israel is doing and what the Nazis did.
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On August 03 2014 12:19 soon.Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2014 12:02 hypercube wrote:On August 03 2014 11:41 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 11:33 hypercube wrote:On August 03 2014 11:02 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 10:19 iDope wrote:The guys harping about Israel's "right" to do what it's doing, how is this defending them against more rocket attacks (or future fighters willing to die to deal some damage to Israel) http://www.un.org/apps/news/infocus/sgspeeches/statments_full.asp?statID=2314#.U9qUwPldV8FA location which is a point of refuge for civilians and mostly women and children, which is operated by the UN and has also been conveyed to the Israeli government as a point of shelter for already traumatized and displaced civilians. I am really amazed at how easily so many are just willing to justify each and every thing Israel is doing under the cover of "the Palestinians started it" or "Hamas is hiding bombs everywhere so Israel should bomb everywhere". I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Are you saying "Israel doesn't care about civilians?" Probably not very much, no. So then can you explain why they're invading on foot, and not just bombing from the sky? Can you explain why they call houses and roof knock before they destroy the weapons inside? Can you explain why they are willing to divert missiles when civilians are around? Can you explain why Israel is willing to treat non-Israeli refugees in their hospitals? And don't give me any "They're only doing that because of international pressure". Neither you nor I are able to dig into the heads of the generals to tell what their motivations are. But fact is that Israel is putting in significant effort to lessen civilian casualties. Sure, I can. They care a little. But not very much. I had no intention to speculate why they care at all, but thanks for the reminder anyway. I don't think we'll have a very productive argument about whether they care "not very much" or "a little" or "a lot", but I guess as long as we agree that they care to some extent, and are doing actions as a function of that care, we're somewhere.
Just shows that the question "Israel doesn't care about civilians?" is not well thought out. Clearly they care about them to some extent, after all they could be carpet bombing Gaza AND the West Bank. But do they care enough? "That's extremely subjective and we can't really have a productive argument about it". You should have asked a different question then, shouldn't you?
And the "reminder" was because I've gotten that response before.
For the record it would have been a legitimate response given that you asked me to speculate on why Israel follows a certain strategy before telling me that I should under no circumstances should use speculation in my answer.
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On August 03 2014 12:49 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2014 12:19 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 12:02 hypercube wrote:On August 03 2014 11:41 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 11:33 hypercube wrote:On August 03 2014 11:02 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 10:19 iDope wrote:The guys harping about Israel's "right" to do what it's doing, how is this defending them against more rocket attacks (or future fighters willing to die to deal some damage to Israel) http://www.un.org/apps/news/infocus/sgspeeches/statments_full.asp?statID=2314#.U9qUwPldV8FA location which is a point of refuge for civilians and mostly women and children, which is operated by the UN and has also been conveyed to the Israeli government as a point of shelter for already traumatized and displaced civilians. I am really amazed at how easily so many are just willing to justify each and every thing Israel is doing under the cover of "the Palestinians started it" or "Hamas is hiding bombs everywhere so Israel should bomb everywhere". I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Are you saying "Israel doesn't care about civilians?" Probably not very much, no. So then can you explain why they're invading on foot, and not just bombing from the sky? Can you explain why they call houses and roof knock before they destroy the weapons inside? Can you explain why they are willing to divert missiles when civilians are around? Can you explain why Israel is willing to treat non-Israeli refugees in their hospitals? And don't give me any "They're only doing that because of international pressure". Neither you nor I are able to dig into the heads of the generals to tell what their motivations are. But fact is that Israel is putting in significant effort to lessen civilian casualties. Sure, I can. They care a little. But not very much. I had no intention to speculate why they care at all, but thanks for the reminder anyway. I don't think we'll have a very productive argument about whether they care "not very much" or "a little" or "a lot", but I guess as long as we agree that they care to some extent, and are doing actions as a function of that care, we're somewhere. Just shows that the question "Israel doesn't care about civilians?" is not well thought out. Clearly they care about them to some extent, after all they could be carpet bombing Gaza AND the West Bank. But do they care enough? "That's extremely subjective and we can't really have a productive argument about it". You should have asked a different question then, shouldn't you?
Did you read the original post? It was one of a series of three rhetorical questions, because I wasn't sure what the original point of his post was. No, I'm interested in a semantic argument of "But let's quantify exactly how much Israel cares", or "They care, but do they care enough", because, like I said, that doesn't sound particularly productive.
And the "reminder" was because I've gotten that response before.
For the record it would have been a legitimate response given that you asked me to speculate on why Israel follows a certain strategy before telling me that I should under no circumstances should use speculation in my answer.
I'll be more clear. We have the question of "Why is Israel doing these things that protect civilians". The answer is "Because they care about civilians". Now we can ask "Why do they care", but that question is pure speculation. Feel free to give a different answer to the first question, if you want.
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On August 03 2014 12:40 soon.Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2014 12:35 Xiphos wrote:On August 03 2014 11:41 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 11:33 hypercube wrote:On August 03 2014 11:02 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 10:19 iDope wrote:The guys harping about Israel's "right" to do what it's doing, how is this defending them against more rocket attacks (or future fighters willing to die to deal some damage to Israel) http://www.un.org/apps/news/infocus/sgspeeches/statments_full.asp?statID=2314#.U9qUwPldV8FA location which is a point of refuge for civilians and mostly women and children, which is operated by the UN and has also been conveyed to the Israeli government as a point of shelter for already traumatized and displaced civilians. I am really amazed at how easily so many are just willing to justify each and every thing Israel is doing under the cover of "the Palestinians started it" or "Hamas is hiding bombs everywhere so Israel should bomb everywhere". I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Are you saying "Israel doesn't care about civilians?" Probably not very much, no. So then can you explain why they're invading on foot, and not just bombing from the sky? Can you explain why they call houses and roof knock before they destroy the weapons inside? Can you explain why they are willing to divert missiles when civilians are around? Can you explain why Israel is willing to treat non-Israeli refugees in their hospitals? And don't give me any "They're only doing that because of international pressure". Neither you nor I are able to dig into the heads of the generals to tell what their motivations are. But fact is that Israel is putting in significant effort to lessen civilian casualties. What ever the cause, the result is that Hamas' army have done less civilian destruction than Israel. So in this war, the Israelite army is the lesser moral constitution here. Let me get this straight. You are arguing that the army that does less civilian destruction is the more moral army? Seriously? I just want to confirm that's what you're saying before I bother arguing how unintelligent that is. Show nested quote +On August 03 2014 12:40 ticklishmusic wrote:On August 03 2014 12:32 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 12:28 ticklishmusic wrote:On August 03 2014 11:41 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 11:33 hypercube wrote:On August 03 2014 11:02 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 10:19 iDope wrote:The guys harping about Israel's "right" to do what it's doing, how is this defending them against more rocket attacks (or future fighters willing to die to deal some damage to Israel) http://www.un.org/apps/news/infocus/sgspeeches/statments_full.asp?statID=2314#.U9qUwPldV8FA location which is a point of refuge for civilians and mostly women and children, which is operated by the UN and has also been conveyed to the Israeli government as a point of shelter for already traumatized and displaced civilians. I am really amazed at how easily so many are just willing to justify each and every thing Israel is doing under the cover of "the Palestinians started it" or "Hamas is hiding bombs everywhere so Israel should bomb everywhere". I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Are you saying "Israel doesn't care about civilians?" Probably not very much, no. So then can you explain why they're invading on foot, and not just bombing from the sky? Can you explain why they call houses and roof knock before they destroy the weapons inside? Can you explain why they are willing to divert missiles when civilians are around? Can you explain why Israel is willing to treat non-Israeli refugees in their hospitals? And don't give me any "They're only doing that because of international pressure". Neither you nor I are able to dig into the heads of the generals to tell what their motivations are. But fact is that Israel is putting in significant effort to lessen civilian casualties. A flimsy excuse is still an excuse. Plausible deniability is all you need! What is the "flimsy excuse" that you are referring to? Israelis: We totally care about human life! Look, we could just carpet bomb the Gaza Strip to solve problems, but instead we're launching strikes on a bunch of locations. The civilian casualties are so low! Instead of 80% being the casualty rate for the entire population of the Gaza Strip, it's just the civilian casualty rate. The absolute number is also much lower, we're doing a great job! You are arguing against an argument I did not make. I said that Israel cares about civilians, as is demonstrated by the lengths they are willing to go to LESSEN civilian casualties. If Israel really did not care about civilians, then the civilian casualty rate would be much higher. I never said that this operation would be perfectly clean, and I don't think anyone can expect that, because of how much Hamas has dug themselves into civilian areas, hiding rockets in schools, mosques, and homes, and because of how dense Gaza is in the first place. So yes, Israel does care about civilian casualties. Show nested quote +
Apologies if this is an inappropriate comparison, but at Auschwitz, the Nazis didn't outright kill the Jews. I mean, they could have carpet bombed that too, but instead they just engineered an environment where it was likely many of them would die. That made them no less culpable from the deaths that ensued.
Ya, in spite of your apology, that's a disgusting analogy. Putting Jews in gas chambers isn't "likely many would die". Working Jews to death isn't "just engineered an environment". It's out and out genocide. Give me an analogy if you want, but don't resort to any comparison between what Israel is doing and what the Nazis did.
You are clearly the one lacking both critical thinking and moral values here by arguing that the army that does more civilian damage to the other side have more moral than an army that does less to its opposition. Take your unmoral stance and gtfo.
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On August 03 2014 13:03 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2014 12:40 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 12:35 Xiphos wrote:On August 03 2014 11:41 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 11:33 hypercube wrote:On August 03 2014 11:02 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 10:19 iDope wrote:The guys harping about Israel's "right" to do what it's doing, how is this defending them against more rocket attacks (or future fighters willing to die to deal some damage to Israel) http://www.un.org/apps/news/infocus/sgspeeches/statments_full.asp?statID=2314#.U9qUwPldV8FA location which is a point of refuge for civilians and mostly women and children, which is operated by the UN and has also been conveyed to the Israeli government as a point of shelter for already traumatized and displaced civilians. I am really amazed at how easily so many are just willing to justify each and every thing Israel is doing under the cover of "the Palestinians started it" or "Hamas is hiding bombs everywhere so Israel should bomb everywhere". I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Are you saying "Israel doesn't care about civilians?" Probably not very much, no. So then can you explain why they're invading on foot, and not just bombing from the sky? Can you explain why they call houses and roof knock before they destroy the weapons inside? Can you explain why they are willing to divert missiles when civilians are around? Can you explain why Israel is willing to treat non-Israeli refugees in their hospitals? And don't give me any "They're only doing that because of international pressure". Neither you nor I are able to dig into the heads of the generals to tell what their motivations are. But fact is that Israel is putting in significant effort to lessen civilian casualties. What ever the cause, the result is that Hamas' army have done less civilian destruction than Israel. So in this war, the Israelite army is the lesser moral constitution here. Let me get this straight. You are arguing that the army that does less civilian destruction is the more moral army? Seriously? I just want to confirm that's what you're saying before I bother arguing how unintelligent that is. On August 03 2014 12:40 ticklishmusic wrote:On August 03 2014 12:32 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 12:28 ticklishmusic wrote:On August 03 2014 11:41 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 11:33 hypercube wrote:On August 03 2014 11:02 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 10:19 iDope wrote:The guys harping about Israel's "right" to do what it's doing, how is this defending them against more rocket attacks (or future fighters willing to die to deal some damage to Israel) http://www.un.org/apps/news/infocus/sgspeeches/statments_full.asp?statID=2314#.U9qUwPldV8FA location which is a point of refuge for civilians and mostly women and children, which is operated by the UN and has also been conveyed to the Israeli government as a point of shelter for already traumatized and displaced civilians. I am really amazed at how easily so many are just willing to justify each and every thing Israel is doing under the cover of "the Palestinians started it" or "Hamas is hiding bombs everywhere so Israel should bomb everywhere". I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Are you saying "Israel doesn't care about civilians?" Probably not very much, no. So then can you explain why they're invading on foot, and not just bombing from the sky? Can you explain why they call houses and roof knock before they destroy the weapons inside? Can you explain why they are willing to divert missiles when civilians are around? Can you explain why Israel is willing to treat non-Israeli refugees in their hospitals? And don't give me any "They're only doing that because of international pressure". Neither you nor I are able to dig into the heads of the generals to tell what their motivations are. But fact is that Israel is putting in significant effort to lessen civilian casualties. A flimsy excuse is still an excuse. Plausible deniability is all you need! What is the "flimsy excuse" that you are referring to? Israelis: We totally care about human life! Look, we could just carpet bomb the Gaza Strip to solve problems, but instead we're launching strikes on a bunch of locations. The civilian casualties are so low! Instead of 80% being the casualty rate for the entire population of the Gaza Strip, it's just the civilian casualty rate. The absolute number is also much lower, we're doing a great job! You are arguing against an argument I did not make. I said that Israel cares about civilians, as is demonstrated by the lengths they are willing to go to LESSEN civilian casualties. If Israel really did not care about civilians, then the civilian casualty rate would be much higher. I never said that this operation would be perfectly clean, and I don't think anyone can expect that, because of how much Hamas has dug themselves into civilian areas, hiding rockets in schools, mosques, and homes, and because of how dense Gaza is in the first place. So yes, Israel does care about civilian casualties.
Apologies if this is an inappropriate comparison, but at Auschwitz, the Nazis didn't outright kill the Jews. I mean, they could have carpet bombed that too, but instead they just engineered an environment where it was likely many of them would die. That made them no less culpable from the deaths that ensued.
Ya, in spite of your apology, that's a disgusting analogy. Putting Jews in gas chambers isn't "likely many would die". Working Jews to death isn't "just engineered an environment". It's out and out genocide. Give me an analogy if you want, but don't resort to any comparison between what Israel is doing and what the Nazis did. You are clearly the one lacking both critical thinking and moral values here by arguing that the army that does more civilian damage to the other side have more moral than an army that does less to its opposition. Take your unmoral stance and gtfo.
...
I suggest taking logic 101, and learning about concepts like converse and inverse, before you start shoving words in my mouth.
Also, the word you're looking for is "immoral", not "unmoral".
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On August 03 2014 13:02 soon.Cloak wrote:
I'll be more clear. We have the question of "Why is Israel doing these things that protect civilians". The answer is "Because they care about civilians". Now we can ask "Why do they care", but that question is pure speculation. Feel free to give a different answer to the first question, if you want.
Just don't forget that caring in this context means having done anything at all at least once. You can still be classified as caring about a group if you save one person but kill a thousand others, by this definition.
Indeed, I could claim to care about your opinion even if I never read anything else you said. Because I've already read some of your posts so I clearly care to some extent. And arguing whether I care enough doesn't sound particularly productive.
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On August 03 2014 13:23 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2014 13:02 soon.Cloak wrote:
I'll be more clear. We have the question of "Why is Israel doing these things that protect civilians". The answer is "Because they care about civilians". Now we can ask "Why do they care", but that question is pure speculation. Feel free to give a different answer to the first question, if you want. Just don't forget that caring in this context means having done anything at all at least once. You can still be classified as caring about a group if you save one person but kill a thousand others, by this definition. Indeed, I could claim to care about your opinion even if I never read anything else you said. Because I've already read some of your posts so I clearly care to some extent. And arguing whether I care enough doesn't sound particularly productive.
At this point, I'm not even sure if we're arguing...or if we are, what we're arguing about...
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On August 03 2014 13:25 soon.Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2014 13:23 hypercube wrote:On August 03 2014 13:02 soon.Cloak wrote:
I'll be more clear. We have the question of "Why is Israel doing these things that protect civilians". The answer is "Because they care about civilians". Now we can ask "Why do they care", but that question is pure speculation. Feel free to give a different answer to the first question, if you want. Just don't forget that caring in this context means having done anything at all at least once. You can still be classified as caring about a group if you save one person but kill a thousand others, by this definition. Indeed, I could claim to care about your opinion even if I never read anything else you said. Because I've already read some of your posts so I clearly care to some extent. And arguing whether I care enough doesn't sound particularly productive. At this point, I'm not even sure if we're arguing...or if we are, what we're arguing about...
Cool. What do you want to do about it?
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On August 03 2014 13:28 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2014 13:25 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 13:23 hypercube wrote:On August 03 2014 13:02 soon.Cloak wrote:
I'll be more clear. We have the question of "Why is Israel doing these things that protect civilians". The answer is "Because they care about civilians". Now we can ask "Why do they care", but that question is pure speculation. Feel free to give a different answer to the first question, if you want. Just don't forget that caring in this context means having done anything at all at least once. You can still be classified as caring about a group if you save one person but kill a thousand others, by this definition. Indeed, I could claim to care about your opinion even if I never read anything else you said. Because I've already read some of your posts so I clearly care to some extent. And arguing whether I care enough doesn't sound particularly productive. At this point, I'm not even sure if we're arguing...or if we are, what we're arguing about... Cool. What do you want to do about it?
Er...well, in general, I feel I'm more the responsive type, not the start an argument type. We can...wish each other well?
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On August 03 2014 13:10 soon.Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2014 13:03 Xiphos wrote:On August 03 2014 12:40 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 12:35 Xiphos wrote:On August 03 2014 11:41 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 11:33 hypercube wrote:On August 03 2014 11:02 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 10:19 iDope wrote:The guys harping about Israel's "right" to do what it's doing, how is this defending them against more rocket attacks (or future fighters willing to die to deal some damage to Israel) http://www.un.org/apps/news/infocus/sgspeeches/statments_full.asp?statID=2314#.U9qUwPldV8FA location which is a point of refuge for civilians and mostly women and children, which is operated by the UN and has also been conveyed to the Israeli government as a point of shelter for already traumatized and displaced civilians. I am really amazed at how easily so many are just willing to justify each and every thing Israel is doing under the cover of "the Palestinians started it" or "Hamas is hiding bombs everywhere so Israel should bomb everywhere". I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Are you saying "Israel doesn't care about civilians?" Probably not very much, no. So then can you explain why they're invading on foot, and not just bombing from the sky? Can you explain why they call houses and roof knock before they destroy the weapons inside? Can you explain why they are willing to divert missiles when civilians are around? Can you explain why Israel is willing to treat non-Israeli refugees in their hospitals? And don't give me any "They're only doing that because of international pressure". Neither you nor I are able to dig into the heads of the generals to tell what their motivations are. But fact is that Israel is putting in significant effort to lessen civilian casualties. What ever the cause, the result is that Hamas' army have done less civilian destruction than Israel. So in this war, the Israelite army is the lesser moral constitution here. Let me get this straight. You are arguing that the army that does less civilian destruction is the more moral army? Seriously? I just want to confirm that's what you're saying before I bother arguing how unintelligent that is. On August 03 2014 12:40 ticklishmusic wrote:On August 03 2014 12:32 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 12:28 ticklishmusic wrote:On August 03 2014 11:41 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 11:33 hypercube wrote:On August 03 2014 11:02 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 10:19 iDope wrote:The guys harping about Israel's "right" to do what it's doing, how is this defending them against more rocket attacks (or future fighters willing to die to deal some damage to Israel) http://www.un.org/apps/news/infocus/sgspeeches/statments_full.asp?statID=2314#.U9qUwPldV8FA location which is a point of refuge for civilians and mostly women and children, which is operated by the UN and has also been conveyed to the Israeli government as a point of shelter for already traumatized and displaced civilians. I am really amazed at how easily so many are just willing to justify each and every thing Israel is doing under the cover of "the Palestinians started it" or "Hamas is hiding bombs everywhere so Israel should bomb everywhere". I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Are you saying "Israel doesn't care about civilians?" Probably not very much, no. So then can you explain why they're invading on foot, and not just bombing from the sky? Can you explain why they call houses and roof knock before they destroy the weapons inside? Can you explain why they are willing to divert missiles when civilians are around? Can you explain why Israel is willing to treat non-Israeli refugees in their hospitals? And don't give me any "They're only doing that because of international pressure". Neither you nor I are able to dig into the heads of the generals to tell what their motivations are. But fact is that Israel is putting in significant effort to lessen civilian casualties. A flimsy excuse is still an excuse. Plausible deniability is all you need! What is the "flimsy excuse" that you are referring to? Israelis: We totally care about human life! Look, we could just carpet bomb the Gaza Strip to solve problems, but instead we're launching strikes on a bunch of locations. The civilian casualties are so low! Instead of 80% being the casualty rate for the entire population of the Gaza Strip, it's just the civilian casualty rate. The absolute number is also much lower, we're doing a great job! You are arguing against an argument I did not make. I said that Israel cares about civilians, as is demonstrated by the lengths they are willing to go to LESSEN civilian casualties. If Israel really did not care about civilians, then the civilian casualty rate would be much higher. I never said that this operation would be perfectly clean, and I don't think anyone can expect that, because of how much Hamas has dug themselves into civilian areas, hiding rockets in schools, mosques, and homes, and because of how dense Gaza is in the first place. So yes, Israel does care about civilian casualties.
Apologies if this is an inappropriate comparison, but at Auschwitz, the Nazis didn't outright kill the Jews. I mean, they could have carpet bombed that too, but instead they just engineered an environment where it was likely many of them would die. That made them no less culpable from the deaths that ensued.
Ya, in spite of your apology, that's a disgusting analogy. Putting Jews in gas chambers isn't "likely many would die". Working Jews to death isn't "just engineered an environment". It's out and out genocide. Give me an analogy if you want, but don't resort to any comparison between what Israel is doing and what the Nazis did. You are clearly the one lacking both critical thinking and moral values here by arguing that the army that does more civilian damage to the other side have more moral than an army that does less to its opposition. Take your unmoral stance and gtfo. ... I suggest taking logic 101, and learning about concepts like converse and inverse, before you start shoving words in my mouth. Also, the word you're looking for is "immoral", not "unmoral".
Listen, its okay to admit defeat instead trying to weasel your way out by bringing out off-topic concepts in a unwinnable situation.
"
mor·al
ˈmôrəl,ˈmär-/
adjective
2. holding or manifesting high principles for proper conduct.
"he prides himself on being a highly moral and ethical person"
"
Source:
https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=moral&safe=off
You clearly lost this one.
If I can admit that I have misspelled that word, why can't you? Are you really that petty? How long have you exhibited such loser-esque behavior? You won't get anywhere in life with this attitude.
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On August 03 2014 13:33 soon.Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2014 13:28 hypercube wrote:On August 03 2014 13:25 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 13:23 hypercube wrote:On August 03 2014 13:02 soon.Cloak wrote:
I'll be more clear. We have the question of "Why is Israel doing these things that protect civilians". The answer is "Because they care about civilians". Now we can ask "Why do they care", but that question is pure speculation. Feel free to give a different answer to the first question, if you want. Just don't forget that caring in this context means having done anything at all at least once. You can still be classified as caring about a group if you save one person but kill a thousand others, by this definition. Indeed, I could claim to care about your opinion even if I never read anything else you said. Because I've already read some of your posts so I clearly care to some extent. And arguing whether I care enough doesn't sound particularly productive. At this point, I'm not even sure if we're arguing...or if we are, what we're arguing about... Cool. What do you want to do about it? Er...well, in general, I feel I'm more the responsive type, not the start an argument type. We can...wish each other well?
I thought wishing well was implied 
Anyway, I don't think the discussion can be saved at this point, so I'm happy with just ending it here.
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On August 03 2014 13:38 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2014 13:33 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 13:28 hypercube wrote:On August 03 2014 13:25 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 13:23 hypercube wrote:On August 03 2014 13:02 soon.Cloak wrote:
I'll be more clear. We have the question of "Why is Israel doing these things that protect civilians". The answer is "Because they care about civilians". Now we can ask "Why do they care", but that question is pure speculation. Feel free to give a different answer to the first question, if you want. Just don't forget that caring in this context means having done anything at all at least once. You can still be classified as caring about a group if you save one person but kill a thousand others, by this definition. Indeed, I could claim to care about your opinion even if I never read anything else you said. Because I've already read some of your posts so I clearly care to some extent. And arguing whether I care enough doesn't sound particularly productive. At this point, I'm not even sure if we're arguing...or if we are, what we're arguing about... Cool. What do you want to do about it? Er...well, in general, I feel I'm more the responsive type, not the start an argument type. We can...wish each other well? I thought wishing well was implied Anyway, I don't think the discussion can be saved at this point, so I happy with just ending it here.
Mhm, i meant it more as a "nice talking to you, bye", than I "I never was wishing you well". But if you have an argument, and you think I was just misunderstanding you, feel free to try it out again, if you're so inclined. But ya, we can end it here if you'd like.
On August 03 2014 13:37 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2014 13:10 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 13:03 Xiphos wrote:On August 03 2014 12:40 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 12:35 Xiphos wrote:On August 03 2014 11:41 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 11:33 hypercube wrote:On August 03 2014 11:02 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 10:19 iDope wrote:The guys harping about Israel's "right" to do what it's doing, how is this defending them against more rocket attacks (or future fighters willing to die to deal some damage to Israel) http://www.un.org/apps/news/infocus/sgspeeches/statments_full.asp?statID=2314#.U9qUwPldV8FA location which is a point of refuge for civilians and mostly women and children, which is operated by the UN and has also been conveyed to the Israeli government as a point of shelter for already traumatized and displaced civilians. I am really amazed at how easily so many are just willing to justify each and every thing Israel is doing under the cover of "the Palestinians started it" or "Hamas is hiding bombs everywhere so Israel should bomb everywhere". I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Are you saying "Israel doesn't care about civilians?" Probably not very much, no. So then can you explain why they're invading on foot, and not just bombing from the sky? Can you explain why they call houses and roof knock before they destroy the weapons inside? Can you explain why they are willing to divert missiles when civilians are around? Can you explain why Israel is willing to treat non-Israeli refugees in their hospitals? And don't give me any "They're only doing that because of international pressure". Neither you nor I are able to dig into the heads of the generals to tell what their motivations are. But fact is that Israel is putting in significant effort to lessen civilian casualties. What ever the cause, the result is that Hamas' army have done less civilian destruction than Israel. So in this war, the Israelite army is the lesser moral constitution here. Let me get this straight. You are arguing that the army that does less civilian destruction is the more moral army? Seriously? I just want to confirm that's what you're saying before I bother arguing how unintelligent that is. On August 03 2014 12:40 ticklishmusic wrote:On August 03 2014 12:32 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 12:28 ticklishmusic wrote:On August 03 2014 11:41 soon.Cloak wrote:On August 03 2014 11:33 hypercube wrote:On August 03 2014 11:02 soon.Cloak wrote:
[quote]
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Are you saying "Israel doesn't care about civilians?" Probably not very much, no. So then can you explain why they're invading on foot, and not just bombing from the sky? Can you explain why they call houses and roof knock before they destroy the weapons inside? Can you explain why they are willing to divert missiles when civilians are around? Can you explain why Israel is willing to treat non-Israeli refugees in their hospitals? And don't give me any "They're only doing that because of international pressure". Neither you nor I are able to dig into the heads of the generals to tell what their motivations are. But fact is that Israel is putting in significant effort to lessen civilian casualties. A flimsy excuse is still an excuse. Plausible deniability is all you need! What is the "flimsy excuse" that you are referring to? Israelis: We totally care about human life! Look, we could just carpet bomb the Gaza Strip to solve problems, but instead we're launching strikes on a bunch of locations. The civilian casualties are so low! Instead of 80% being the casualty rate for the entire population of the Gaza Strip, it's just the civilian casualty rate. The absolute number is also much lower, we're doing a great job! You are arguing against an argument I did not make. I said that Israel cares about civilians, as is demonstrated by the lengths they are willing to go to LESSEN civilian casualties. If Israel really did not care about civilians, then the civilian casualty rate would be much higher. I never said that this operation would be perfectly clean, and I don't think anyone can expect that, because of how much Hamas has dug themselves into civilian areas, hiding rockets in schools, mosques, and homes, and because of how dense Gaza is in the first place. So yes, Israel does care about civilian casualties.
Apologies if this is an inappropriate comparison, but at Auschwitz, the Nazis didn't outright kill the Jews. I mean, they could have carpet bombed that too, but instead they just engineered an environment where it was likely many of them would die. That made them no less culpable from the deaths that ensued.
Ya, in spite of your apology, that's a disgusting analogy. Putting Jews in gas chambers isn't "likely many would die". Working Jews to death isn't "just engineered an environment". It's out and out genocide. Give me an analogy if you want, but don't resort to any comparison between what Israel is doing and what the Nazis did. You are clearly the one lacking both critical thinking and moral values here by arguing that the army that does more civilian damage to the other side have more moral than an army that does less to its opposition. Take your unmoral stance and gtfo. ... I suggest taking logic 101, and learning about concepts like converse and inverse, before you start shoving words in my mouth. Also, the word you're looking for is "immoral", not "unmoral". Listen, its okay to admit defeat instead trying to weasel your way out by bringing out off-topic concepts in a unwinnable situation. " mor·al ˈmôrəl,ˈmär-/ adjective 2. holding or manifesting high principles for proper conduct. "he prides himself on being a highly moral and ethical person" " Source: https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=moral&safe=offYou clearly lost this one. If I can admit that I have misspelled that word, why can't you? Are you really that petty? How long have you exhibited such loser-esque behavior? You won't get anywhere in life with this attitude.
Congratulations, you have utterly confused me. I was trying to weasel my way out of what again? Did we ever disagree about the dictionary definition of "moral"? What did I "clearly lose" again? What word am I supposed to admit I misspelled? When did I act petty? What loser-esque behavior are you referring to?
I don't remember the last time a post confused me so much.
You won't get anywhere in life with this attitude.
Gee, thanks life coach Xiphos. Your concern is, as always, greatly appreciated.
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