On August 02 2014 09:37 farvacola wrote: One needn't discard that possibility in order to discard the daily beast article as a credible piece of journalism.
On August 02 2014 09:35 WhiteDog wrote: To be fair, we will never be able to completly enlight what happen in Gaza, at least not in the next few months, until an independant UN investigation start to work on the subject (or a humanitarian organisation such as amnesty international), but there are already various suspicion of war crime, like there were in the last attack - that lead to the goldstone report, a report that goldstone rejected afterward. But don't discard the idea of civilian execution that fast, it happened in Israeli's history, quite a few times actually.
he's got a point, the UN is pretty experienced at the whole "atrocities against civilians" thing
Yeah, they're good at writing report months after the events lol.
On August 02 2014 09:37 farvacola wrote: One needn't discard that possibility in order to discard the daily beast article as a credible piece of journalism.
On August 02 2014 09:35 WhiteDog wrote: To be fair, we will never be able to completly enlight what happen in Gaza, at least not in the next few months, until an independant UN investigation start to work on the subject (or a humanitarian organisation such as amnesty international), but there are already various suspicion of war crime, like there were in the last attack - that lead to the goldstone report, a report that goldstone rejected afterward. But don't discard the idea of civilian execution that fast, it happened in Israeli's history, quite a few times actually.
he's got a point, the UN is pretty experienced at the whole "atrocities against civilians" thing
Yeah, they're good at writing report months after the events lol.
what can you do when someone vetoes every resolution and no one wants to step up and take the brunt of the costs and casualties
On August 02 2014 09:37 farvacola wrote: One needn't discard that possibility in order to discard the daily beast article as a credible piece of journalism.
On August 02 2014 09:35 WhiteDog wrote: To be fair, we will never be able to completly enlight what happen in Gaza, at least not in the next few months, until an independant UN investigation start to work on the subject (or a humanitarian organisation such as amnesty international), but there are already various suspicion of war crime, like there were in the last attack - that lead to the goldstone report, a report that goldstone rejected afterward. But don't discard the idea of civilian execution that fast, it happened in Israeli's history, quite a few times actually.
he's got a point, the UN is pretty experienced at the whole "atrocities against civilians" thing
Yeah, they're good at writing report months after the events lol.
though i've never read anything on daily beast, reza aslan is a contributor so i assume its a good source
A powerful piece written by a Holocaust survivor. It is quite short, and will take no long than a couple of minutes to finish. Highly recommend: Beautiful dream of Israel has become a nightmare
As a Jewish youngster growing up in Budapest, an infant survivor of the Nazi genocide, I was for years haunted by a question resounding in my brain with such force that sometimes my head would spin: “How was it possible? How could the world have let such horrors happen?”
It was a naïve question, that of a child. I know better now: such is reality. Whether in Vietnam or Rwanda or Syria, humanity stands by either complicitly or unconsciously or helplessly, as it always does. In Gaza today we find ways of justifying the bombing of hospitals, the annihilation of families at dinner, the killing of pre-adolescents playing soccer on a beach.
considering that Hamas headquarters is based in a hospital I find the no-justification line pretty interesting (one source here*)
I can see how one could still make the no-justification argument, but it requires infantilizing the Palestinians as some sort of group completely incapable of bearing moral responsibility. "You can't blame them for violating the laws of civilized warfare, what other choice do they have?!?!!!"
On August 01 2014 22:46 tmdtmdtmd wrote: Here you can see the difference between Buddhism and Islam, one use the peaceful approach, not only does it gain respect from the other side you preserve the life of your own people, other is just relentless disregarding human rights an focus on a crazy religious dogma. This is why not all religions and cultures are equal, there are a certain backward mentality people, stop with the PC bullcrap.]
Yes, violence is against the teaching of the Buddha. But religious intolerance is against the teachings of Mohammad and the teaching of Jesus forbids doing anything to somebody else you wouldn't want them to do to you. People find a way to twist good ideas to bad ends.
On August 02 2014 02:47 xM(Z wrote: a lot of people are using Isreal instead of Israel and Irealis instead of Israelis. what's up with that?
On August 02 2014 13:46 darthfoley wrote: A powerful piece written by a Holocaust survivor. It is quite short, and will take no long than a couple of minutes to finish. Highly recommend: Beautiful dream of Israel has become a nightmare
As a Jewish youngster growing up in Budapest, an infant survivor of the Nazi genocide, I was for years haunted by a question resounding in my brain with such force that sometimes my head would spin: “How was it possible? How could the world have let such horrors happen?”
It was a naïve question, that of a child. I know better now: such is reality. Whether in Vietnam or Rwanda or Syria, humanity stands by either complicitly or unconsciously or helplessly, as it always does. In Gaza today we find ways of justifying the bombing of hospitals, the annihilation of families at dinner, the killing of pre-adolescents playing soccer on a beach.
Wow really good piece. But you can see where Israel is coming from. Unfortunately, not being Muslim in the Mideast/N. Africa is an absolute nightmare. The only period of peace for minority religions was in the former secular republics, like Lebanon at various points, Iraq before 2003 and Syria before the civil war, and Egypt. Now they're being mercilessly slaughtered in Iraq and Syria. But even before that, that it was various forms of persecution, genocide by Ottomans, and deportation by old Arab and Persian monarchs, just in the 20th century alone. Well, when you see what's happening to innocent Christians as we speak (and funnily enough, it's almost entirely ignored, compared to limited killing of Palestinians by the IDF) at the hands of powerful Muslim extremists backed by malicious Gulf Arab monarchs and the Iranian Ayatollah and sometimes even Western countries, what are the Jews in Israel supposed to do or think? They know they'd suffer the same fate if they take one step back.
So you can see in this region, especially in the last decade, why minority religions in Muslim countries are extremely fearful, and why the Jews in Israel are extremely committed to protecting themselves. The downside of this is it has even before Israel was founded developed a highly nationalistic, ethnocentric, and martial culture that gives less care than they should to damage to civilians in warfare and other matters. If it weren't for the fact that practically every nation but the US condemns them, it wouldn't surprise me if the Israelis were far more aggressive and destructive. It's certainly within their interests, as the one safe place in the Mideast for non-Muslims, to do so. But there must be a balance. Fears and jingoism cannot lead to unjustifiable degrees of violence, and they need to stop puffing their chests because the US backs them to the hilt. Perhaps they should humbly realize that if not for the US, they'd be getting slapped with sanctions like crazy. It would sober them up, to say the least. But, they hold all the cards in this scenario and largely control the conflict. They can do more to prevent infrastructural destruction and death.
On August 02 2014 13:46 darthfoley wrote: A powerful piece written by a Holocaust survivor. It is quite short, and will take no long than a couple of minutes to finish. Highly recommend: Beautiful dream of Israel has become a nightmare
As a Jewish youngster growing up in Budapest, an infant survivor of the Nazi genocide, I was for years haunted by a question resounding in my brain with such force that sometimes my head would spin: “How was it possible? How could the world have let such horrors happen?”
It was a naïve question, that of a child. I know better now: such is reality. Whether in Vietnam or Rwanda or Syria, humanity stands by either complicitly or unconsciously or helplessly, as it always does. In Gaza today we find ways of justifying the bombing of hospitals, the annihilation of families at dinner, the killing of pre-adolescents playing soccer on a beach.
Wow really good piece. But you can see where Israel is coming from. Unfortunately, not being Muslim in the Mideast/N. Africa is an absolute nightmare. The only period of peace for minority religions was in the former secular republics, like Lebanon at various points, Iraq before 2003 and Syria before the civil war, and Egypt. Now they're being mercilessly slaughtered in Iraq and Syria. But even before that, that it was various forms of persecution, genocide by Ottomans, and deportation by old Arab and Persian monarchs, just in the 20th century alone.
So you can see in this region, especially in the last decade, why minority religions in Muslim countries are extremely fearful, and why the Jews in Israel are extremely committed to protecting themselves. The downside of this is it has even before Israel was founded developed a highly nationalistic, ethnocentric, and martial culture that gives less care than they should to damage to civilians in warfare and other matters. If it weren't for the fact that practically every nation but the US condemns them, it wouldn't surprise me if the Israelis were far more aggressive and destructive. It's certainly within their interests, as the one safe place in the Mideast for non-Muslims, to do so. But there must be a balance. Fears and jingoism cannot lead to unjustifiable degrees of violence, and they need to stop puffing their chests because the US backs them to the hilt. Perhaps they should humbly realize that if not for the US, they'd be getting slapped with sanctions like crazy. It would sober them up, to say the least. But, they hold all the cards in this scenario and largely control the conflict. They can do more to prevent infrastructural destruction and death.
There is a significant jewish community in Iran (altho a good chunk left after the islamic revolution), and even a jewish deputee. Israel is not committed to protecting themselves, they are commited to taking the land of their eretz israel, and plenty of people gave facts to support this point - going from statement from israeli high officials/politicians, arguments from political individuals such as Jimmy Carter, or even the charter of the Likud party. It is not about security, it is about creating and expanding their jewish state.
On August 02 2014 13:46 darthfoley wrote: A powerful piece written by a Holocaust survivor. It is quite short, and will take no long than a couple of minutes to finish. Highly recommend: Beautiful dream of Israel has become a nightmare
As a Jewish youngster growing up in Budapest, an infant survivor of the Nazi genocide, I was for years haunted by a question resounding in my brain with such force that sometimes my head would spin: “How was it possible? How could the world have let such horrors happen?”
It was a naïve question, that of a child. I know better now: such is reality. Whether in Vietnam or Rwanda or Syria, humanity stands by either complicitly or unconsciously or helplessly, as it always does. In Gaza today we find ways of justifying the bombing of hospitals, the annihilation of families at dinner, the killing of pre-adolescents playing soccer on a beach.
Wow really good piece. But you can see where Israel is coming from. Unfortunately, not being Muslim in the Mideast/N. Africa is an absolute nightmare. The only period of peace for minority religions was in the former secular republics, like Lebanon at various points, Iraq before 2003 and Syria before the civil war, and Egypt. Now they're being mercilessly slaughtered in Iraq and Syria. But even before that, that it was various forms of persecution, genocide by Ottomans, and deportation by old Arab and Persian monarchs, just in the 20th century alone.
So you can see in this region, especially in the last decade, why minority religions in Muslim countries are extremely fearful, and why the Jews in Israel are extremely committed to protecting themselves. The downside of this is it has even before Israel was founded developed a highly nationalistic, ethnocentric, and martial culture that gives less care than they should to damage to civilians in warfare and other matters. If it weren't for the fact that practically every nation but the US condemns them, it wouldn't surprise me if the Israelis were far more aggressive and destructive. It's certainly within their interests, as the one safe place in the Mideast for non-Muslims, to do so. But there must be a balance. Fears and jingoism cannot lead to unjustifiable degrees of violence, and they need to stop puffing their chests because the US backs them to the hilt. Perhaps they should humbly realize that if not for the US, they'd be getting slapped with sanctions like crazy. It would sober them up, to say the least. But, they hold all the cards in this scenario and largely control the conflict. They can do more to prevent infrastructural destruction and death.
There is a significant jewish community in Iran, and even a jewish deputee. Israel is not committed to protecting themselves, they are commited to taking the land of their eretz israel, and plenty of people gave facts to support this point - going from statement from israeli high officials/politicians, arguments from political individuals such as Jimmy Carter, or even the charter of the Likud party. It is not about security, it is about creating and expanding their jewish state.
Yeah, and exactly the same evidence can be given for Palestina (and other nations in that region) not seeking peace and friendly relations with israel, but that they want to extinct that nation and conquer their land.
On August 02 2014 13:46 darthfoley wrote: A powerful piece written by a Holocaust survivor. It is quite short, and will take no long than a couple of minutes to finish. Highly recommend: Beautiful dream of Israel has become a nightmare
As a Jewish youngster growing up in Budapest, an infant survivor of the Nazi genocide, I was for years haunted by a question resounding in my brain with such force that sometimes my head would spin: “How was it possible? How could the world have let such horrors happen?”
It was a naïve question, that of a child. I know better now: such is reality. Whether in Vietnam or Rwanda or Syria, humanity stands by either complicitly or unconsciously or helplessly, as it always does. In Gaza today we find ways of justifying the bombing of hospitals, the annihilation of families at dinner, the killing of pre-adolescents playing soccer on a beach.
Wow really good piece. But you can see where Israel is coming from. Unfortunately, not being Muslim in the Mideast/N. Africa is an absolute nightmare. The only period of peace for minority religions was in the former secular republics, like Lebanon at various points, Iraq before 2003 and Syria before the civil war, and Egypt. Now they're being mercilessly slaughtered in Iraq and Syria. But even before that, that it was various forms of persecution, genocide by Ottomans, and deportation by old Arab and Persian monarchs, just in the 20th century alone.
So you can see in this region, especially in the last decade, why minority religions in Muslim countries are extremely fearful, and why the Jews in Israel are extremely committed to protecting themselves. The downside of this is it has even before Israel was founded developed a highly nationalistic, ethnocentric, and martial culture that gives less care than they should to damage to civilians in warfare and other matters. If it weren't for the fact that practically every nation but the US condemns them, it wouldn't surprise me if the Israelis were far more aggressive and destructive. It's certainly within their interests, as the one safe place in the Mideast for non-Muslims, to do so. But there must be a balance. Fears and jingoism cannot lead to unjustifiable degrees of violence, and they need to stop puffing their chests because the US backs them to the hilt. Perhaps they should humbly realize that if not for the US, they'd be getting slapped with sanctions like crazy. It would sober them up, to say the least. But, they hold all the cards in this scenario and largely control the conflict. They can do more to prevent infrastructural destruction and death.
There is a significant jewish community in Iran, and even jewish deputee. Israel is not committed to protecting themselves, their commited to taking the land of their eretz israel, and plenty of people gave facts to support this point - going from statement from israeli high officials/politicians, arguments from political individuals such as Jimmy Carter, or even the charter of the Likud party. It is not about security, it is about creating a jewish state.
Most of the Jews departed in the 40s/50s when Muslim monarchs decided it was a good idea to get rid of them, so they fled to Israel and the US, in particular Iranian Jews. Most of the remainder of Iranian Christians and Jews fled (and smartly so) when Jihadlord Khomeini took over in Iran. There's a significantly lower number of Jews in Iran than there were in 1948. There were over 100k back then. Now, there's estimates of ~30,000 but I remember seeing something a year ago from census data that reported less than 10,000. It is still a precarious situation there, and if we go back, was hostile in the years of Khomeini's takeover. Fortunately (or unfortunately), he was more intent on vengeance and attempting to conquer the Shiite holy cities than he was on persecuting non-Muslims too much. But still, the Revolution prompted many of the remaining Christians and Jews to leave.
I noted the overaggression of Israel, but the daily happenings in the Mideast and politics of many of the Mideastern Muslim states are enough to drive any Israeli to shitting their pants if they were to think about it too much. And things are only growing worse. The Islamic Revolution (which overthrew Iran's secular order and installed a jihad-focused regime), the embargo and following Iraq War (Iraq was the strongly dedicated anti-Islamist state in the region) and the Arab Spring (which have replaced stable secular regimes with Islamic extremists) have been monumentally disastrous for the Middle East and for the climate for Israel. The Jewish state has been around for 66 years. It has been created long ago. But what do you suggest? That it be dismantled? That Jews in the Mideast suffer the same fate as their Christian counterparts? No thanks. Sadly, we cannot simply change the history of things. We cannot erase the British/American and Spanish conquests of the native nations of the New World, just like we cannot erase the establishment of Israel by desperate and enraged Zionists. We must focus on the present.
On August 02 2014 13:46 darthfoley wrote: A powerful piece written by a Holocaust survivor. It is quite short, and will take no long than a couple of minutes to finish. Highly recommend: Beautiful dream of Israel has become a nightmare
As a Jewish youngster growing up in Budapest, an infant survivor of the Nazi genocide, I was for years haunted by a question resounding in my brain with such force that sometimes my head would spin: “How was it possible? How could the world have let such horrors happen?”
It was a naïve question, that of a child. I know better now: such is reality. Whether in Vietnam or Rwanda or Syria, humanity stands by either complicitly or unconsciously or helplessly, as it always does. In Gaza today we find ways of justifying the bombing of hospitals, the annihilation of families at dinner, the killing of pre-adolescents playing soccer on a beach.
Wow really good piece. But you can see where Israel is coming from. Unfortunately, not being Muslim in the Mideast/N. Africa is an absolute nightmare. The only period of peace for minority religions was in the former secular republics, like Lebanon at various points, Iraq before 2003 and Syria before the civil war, and Egypt. Now they're being mercilessly slaughtered in Iraq and Syria. But even before that, that it was various forms of persecution, genocide by Ottomans, and deportation by old Arab and Persian monarchs, just in the 20th century alone.
So you can see in this region, especially in the last decade, why minority religions in Muslim countries are extremely fearful, and why the Jews in Israel are extremely committed to protecting themselves. The downside of this is it has even before Israel was founded developed a highly nationalistic, ethnocentric, and martial culture that gives less care than they should to damage to civilians in warfare and other matters. If it weren't for the fact that practically every nation but the US condemns them, it wouldn't surprise me if the Israelis were far more aggressive and destructive. It's certainly within their interests, as the one safe place in the Mideast for non-Muslims, to do so. But there must be a balance. Fears and jingoism cannot lead to unjustifiable degrees of violence, and they need to stop puffing their chests because the US backs them to the hilt. Perhaps they should humbly realize that if not for the US, they'd be getting slapped with sanctions like crazy. It would sober them up, to say the least. But, they hold all the cards in this scenario and largely control the conflict. They can do more to prevent infrastructural destruction and death.
There is a significant jewish community in Iran, and even a jewish deputee. Israel is not committed to protecting themselves, they are commited to taking the land of their eretz israel, and plenty of people gave facts to support this point - going from statement from israeli high officials/politicians, arguments from political individuals such as Jimmy Carter, or even the charter of the Likud party. It is not about security, it is about creating and expanding their jewish state.
Yeah, and exactly the same evidence can be given for Palestina (and other nations in that region) not seeking peace and friendly relations with israel, but that they want to extinct that nation and conquer their land.
Palestine ? They are negociating since years, they already accepted all demands from Kerry and it's Israel who refused in the last peace talks... Show me the facts.
On August 02 2014 13:46 darthfoley wrote: A powerful piece written by a Holocaust survivor. It is quite short, and will take no long than a couple of minutes to finish. Highly recommend: Beautiful dream of Israel has become a nightmare
As a Jewish youngster growing up in Budapest, an infant survivor of the Nazi genocide, I was for years haunted by a question resounding in my brain with such force that sometimes my head would spin: “How was it possible? How could the world have let such horrors happen?”
It was a naïve question, that of a child. I know better now: such is reality. Whether in Vietnam or Rwanda or Syria, humanity stands by either complicitly or unconsciously or helplessly, as it always does. In Gaza today we find ways of justifying the bombing of hospitals, the annihilation of families at dinner, the killing of pre-adolescents playing soccer on a beach.
Wow really good piece. But you can see where Israel is coming from. Unfortunately, not being Muslim in the Mideast/N. Africa is an absolute nightmare. The only period of peace for minority religions was in the former secular republics, like Lebanon at various points, Iraq before 2003 and Syria before the civil war, and Egypt. Now they're being mercilessly slaughtered in Iraq and Syria. But even before that, that it was various forms of persecution, genocide by Ottomans, and deportation by old Arab and Persian monarchs, just in the 20th century alone.
So you can see in this region, especially in the last decade, why minority religions in Muslim countries are extremely fearful, and why the Jews in Israel are extremely committed to protecting themselves. The downside of this is it has even before Israel was founded developed a highly nationalistic, ethnocentric, and martial culture that gives less care than they should to damage to civilians in warfare and other matters. If it weren't for the fact that practically every nation but the US condemns them, it wouldn't surprise me if the Israelis were far more aggressive and destructive. It's certainly within their interests, as the one safe place in the Mideast for non-Muslims, to do so. But there must be a balance. Fears and jingoism cannot lead to unjustifiable degrees of violence, and they need to stop puffing their chests because the US backs them to the hilt. Perhaps they should humbly realize that if not for the US, they'd be getting slapped with sanctions like crazy. It would sober them up, to say the least. But, they hold all the cards in this scenario and largely control the conflict. They can do more to prevent infrastructural destruction and death.
There is a significant jewish community in Iran, and even jewish deputee. Israel is not committed to protecting themselves, their commited to taking the land of their eretz israel, and plenty of people gave facts to support this point - going from statement from israeli high officials/politicians, arguments from political individuals such as Jimmy Carter, or even the charter of the Likud party. It is not about security, it is about creating a jewish state.
Most of the Jews departed in the 40s/50s when Muslim monarchs decided it was a good idea to get rid of them, so they fled to Israel and the US, in particular Iranian Jews. Most of the remainder of Iranian Christians and Jews fled (and smartly so) when Jihadlord Khomeini took over in Iran. There's a significantly lower number of Jews in Iran than there were in 1948. There were over 100k back then. Now, there's estimates of ~30,000 but I remember seeing something a year ago from census data the reported less than 10,000. It is still a precarious situation there, and if we go back, was hostile in the years of Khomeini's takeover. Fortunately (or unfortunately), he was more intent on vengeance and attempting to conquer the Shiite holy cities than he was on persecuting non-Muslims too much.
I noted the overaggression of Israel, but the daily happenings in the Mideast and politics of many of the Mideastern Muslim states are enough to drive any Israeli to shitting their pants if they were to think about it too much. And things are only growing worse. The Islamic Revolution (which overthrew Iran's secular order and installed a jihad-focused regime), the embargo and following Iraq War (Iraq was the strongly dedicated anti-Islamist state in the region) and the Arab Spring (which have replaced stable secular regimes with Islamic extremists) have been monumentally disastrous for the Middle East and for the climate for Israel. The Jewish state has been around for 66 years. It has been created long ago. But what do you suggest? That it be dismantled? That Jews in the Mideast suffer the same fate as their Christian counterparts? No thanks. Sadly, we cannot simply change the history of things. We cannot erase the British/American and Spanish conquests of the native nations of the New World, just like we cannot erase the establishment of Israel by desperate and enraged Zionists. We must focus on the present.
I suggest they stop their colonialism. I'm not against the reality of Israel because doing so would be against my own value : ethnical cleansing and massacre, just like Israel has done and is doing. And the 4th military power in the world, armed with the nuclear bomb, doesn't fear anything from people who have no tanks nor airforce.
On August 02 2014 13:46 darthfoley wrote: A powerful piece written by a Holocaust survivor. It is quite short, and will take no long than a couple of minutes to finish. Highly recommend: Beautiful dream of Israel has become a nightmare
As a Jewish youngster growing up in Budapest, an infant survivor of the Nazi genocide, I was for years haunted by a question resounding in my brain with such force that sometimes my head would spin: “How was it possible? How could the world have let such horrors happen?”
It was a naïve question, that of a child. I know better now: such is reality. Whether in Vietnam or Rwanda or Syria, humanity stands by either complicitly or unconsciously or helplessly, as it always does. In Gaza today we find ways of justifying the bombing of hospitals, the annihilation of families at dinner, the killing of pre-adolescents playing soccer on a beach.
Wow really good piece. But you can see where Israel is coming from. Unfortunately, not being Muslim in the Mideast/N. Africa is an absolute nightmare. The only period of peace for minority religions was in the former secular republics, like Lebanon at various points, Iraq before 2003 and Syria before the civil war, and Egypt. Now they're being mercilessly slaughtered in Iraq and Syria. But even before that, that it was various forms of persecution, genocide by Ottomans, and deportation by old Arab and Persian monarchs, just in the 20th century alone.
So you can see in this region, especially in the last decade, why minority religions in Muslim countries are extremely fearful, and why the Jews in Israel are extremely committed to protecting themselves. The downside of this is it has even before Israel was founded developed a highly nationalistic, ethnocentric, and martial culture that gives less care than they should to damage to civilians in warfare and other matters. If it weren't for the fact that practically every nation but the US condemns them, it wouldn't surprise me if the Israelis were far more aggressive and destructive. It's certainly within their interests, as the one safe place in the Mideast for non-Muslims, to do so. But there must be a balance. Fears and jingoism cannot lead to unjustifiable degrees of violence, and they need to stop puffing their chests because the US backs them to the hilt. Perhaps they should humbly realize that if not for the US, they'd be getting slapped with sanctions like crazy. It would sober them up, to say the least. But, they hold all the cards in this scenario and largely control the conflict. They can do more to prevent infrastructural destruction and death.
There is a significant jewish community in Iran, and even a jewish deputee. Israel is not committed to protecting themselves, they are commited to taking the land of their eretz israel, and plenty of people gave facts to support this point - going from statement from israeli high officials/politicians, arguments from political individuals such as Jimmy Carter, or even the charter of the Likud party. It is not about security, it is about creating and expanding their jewish state.
Yeah, and exactly the same evidence can be given for Palestina (and other nations in that region) not seeking peace and friendly relations with israel, but that they want to extinct that nation and conquer their land.
Palestine ? They are negociating since years, they already accepted all demands from Kerry and it's Israel who refused in the last peace talks... Show me the facts.
On August 02 2014 13:46 darthfoley wrote: A powerful piece written by a Holocaust survivor. It is quite short, and will take no long than a couple of minutes to finish. Highly recommend: Beautiful dream of Israel has become a nightmare
As a Jewish youngster growing up in Budapest, an infant survivor of the Nazi genocide, I was for years haunted by a question resounding in my brain with such force that sometimes my head would spin: “How was it possible? How could the world have let such horrors happen?”
It was a naïve question, that of a child. I know better now: such is reality. Whether in Vietnam or Rwanda or Syria, humanity stands by either complicitly or unconsciously or helplessly, as it always does. In Gaza today we find ways of justifying the bombing of hospitals, the annihilation of families at dinner, the killing of pre-adolescents playing soccer on a beach.
Wow really good piece. But you can see where Israel is coming from. Unfortunately, not being Muslim in the Mideast/N. Africa is an absolute nightmare. The only period of peace for minority religions was in the former secular republics, like Lebanon at various points, Iraq before 2003 and Syria before the civil war, and Egypt. Now they're being mercilessly slaughtered in Iraq and Syria. But even before that, that it was various forms of persecution, genocide by Ottomans, and deportation by old Arab and Persian monarchs, just in the 20th century alone.
So you can see in this region, especially in the last decade, why minority religions in Muslim countries are extremely fearful, and why the Jews in Israel are extremely committed to protecting themselves. The downside of this is it has even before Israel was founded developed a highly nationalistic, ethnocentric, and martial culture that gives less care than they should to damage to civilians in warfare and other matters. If it weren't for the fact that practically every nation but the US condemns them, it wouldn't surprise me if the Israelis were far more aggressive and destructive. It's certainly within their interests, as the one safe place in the Mideast for non-Muslims, to do so. But there must be a balance. Fears and jingoism cannot lead to unjustifiable degrees of violence, and they need to stop puffing their chests because the US backs them to the hilt. Perhaps they should humbly realize that if not for the US, they'd be getting slapped with sanctions like crazy. It would sober them up, to say the least. But, they hold all the cards in this scenario and largely control the conflict. They can do more to prevent infrastructural destruction and death.
There is a significant jewish community in Iran, and even jewish deputee. Israel is not committed to protecting themselves, their commited to taking the land of their eretz israel, and plenty of people gave facts to support this point - going from statement from israeli high officials/politicians, arguments from political individuals such as Jimmy Carter, or even the charter of the Likud party. It is not about security, it is about creating a jewish state.
Most of the Jews departed in the 40s/50s when Muslim monarchs decided it was a good idea to get rid of them, so they fled to Israel and the US, in particular Iranian Jews. Most of the remainder of Iranian Christians and Jews fled (and smartly so) when Jihadlord Khomeini took over in Iran. There's a significantly lower number of Jews in Iran than there were in 1948. There were over 100k back then. Now, there's estimates of ~30,000 but I remember seeing something a year ago from census data the reported less than 10,000. It is still a precarious situation there, and if we go back, was hostile in the years of Khomeini's takeover. Fortunately (or unfortunately), he was more intent on vengeance and attempting to conquer the Shiite holy cities than he was on persecuting non-Muslims too much.
I noted the overaggression of Israel, but the daily happenings in the Mideast and politics of many of the Mideastern Muslim states are enough to drive any Israeli to shitting their pants if they were to think about it too much. And things are only growing worse. The Islamic Revolution (which overthrew Iran's secular order and installed a jihad-focused regime), the embargo and following Iraq War (Iraq was the strongly dedicated anti-Islamist state in the region) and the Arab Spring (which have replaced stable secular regimes with Islamic extremists) have been monumentally disastrous for the Middle East and for the climate for Israel. The Jewish state has been around for 66 years. It has been created long ago. But what do you suggest? That it be dismantled? That Jews in the Mideast suffer the same fate as their Christian counterparts? No thanks. Sadly, we cannot simply change the history of things. We cannot erase the British/American and Spanish conquests of the native nations of the New World, just like we cannot erase the establishment of Israel by desperate and enraged Zionists. We must focus on the present.
I suggest they stop their colonialism. I'm not against the reality of Israel because doing so would be against my own value : ethnical cleansing and massacre, just like Israel has done and is doing. And the 4th military power in the world, armed with the nuclear bomb, doesn't fear anything from people who have no tanks nor airforce.
Given the political culture, I fear the colonialism won't stop. Sanctions would sober them and have them realize their mortality, but the US and AIPAC would never allow that to happen. Who's fearful of Palestinians? Rather, there's something to fear when you have countries like Egypt completely swagged out by the US who've held a precarious peace with Israel thanks to US money, a nation founded by jihad just a few countries to the east, and volatile Gulf oil sheikhs who don't know what to do with their infinite money besides supporting terrorists.
On August 02 2014 13:46 darthfoley wrote: A powerful piece written by a Holocaust survivor. It is quite short, and will take no long than a couple of minutes to finish. Highly recommend: Beautiful dream of Israel has become a nightmare
As a Jewish youngster growing up in Budapest, an infant survivor of the Nazi genocide, I was for years haunted by a question resounding in my brain with such force that sometimes my head would spin: “How was it possible? How could the world have let such horrors happen?”
It was a naïve question, that of a child. I know better now: such is reality. Whether in Vietnam or Rwanda or Syria, humanity stands by either complicitly or unconsciously or helplessly, as it always does. In Gaza today we find ways of justifying the bombing of hospitals, the annihilation of families at dinner, the killing of pre-adolescents playing soccer on a beach.
Wow really good piece. But you can see where Israel is coming from. Unfortunately, not being Muslim in the Mideast/N. Africa is an absolute nightmare. The only period of peace for minority religions was in the former secular republics, like Lebanon at various points, Iraq before 2003 and Syria before the civil war, and Egypt. Now they're being mercilessly slaughtered in Iraq and Syria. But even before that, that it was various forms of persecution, genocide by Ottomans, and deportation by old Arab and Persian monarchs, just in the 20th century alone.
So you can see in this region, especially in the last decade, why minority religions in Muslim countries are extremely fearful, and why the Jews in Israel are extremely committed to protecting themselves. The downside of this is it has even before Israel was founded developed a highly nationalistic, ethnocentric, and martial culture that gives less care than they should to damage to civilians in warfare and other matters. If it weren't for the fact that practically every nation but the US condemns them, it wouldn't surprise me if the Israelis were far more aggressive and destructive. It's certainly within their interests, as the one safe place in the Mideast for non-Muslims, to do so. But there must be a balance. Fears and jingoism cannot lead to unjustifiable degrees of violence, and they need to stop puffing their chests because the US backs them to the hilt. Perhaps they should humbly realize that if not for the US, they'd be getting slapped with sanctions like crazy. It would sober them up, to say the least. But, they hold all the cards in this scenario and largely control the conflict. They can do more to prevent infrastructural destruction and death.
There is a significant jewish community in Iran, and even a jewish deputee. Israel is not committed to protecting themselves, they are commited to taking the land of their eretz israel, and plenty of people gave facts to support this point - going from statement from israeli high officials/politicians, arguments from political individuals such as Jimmy Carter, or even the charter of the Likud party. It is not about security, it is about creating and expanding their jewish state.
Yeah, and exactly the same evidence can be given for Palestina (and other nations in that region) not seeking peace and friendly relations with israel, but that they want to extinct that nation and conquer their land.
Palestine ? They are negociating since years, they already accepted all demands from Kerry and it's Israel who refused in the last peace talks... Show me the facts.
Prefixing: I did not imply that they are not negotiating, nor do I say or believe anything like that. My point is solely that there are quotes and that there is evidence for both sides demanding the other parties land. And in the same spirit of arguing "they are negotiating, so they cannot mean to destroy Israel", you can say "Israel gave the land to them, so they cannot mean to reconquer it". Below the quotes that you are seeking:
Hamas official Halil Al-Hayya, Al-Hayat newspaper, November 11, 2010 "The lie of the Zionist Holocaust crumbles with countless holocausts committed by the Zionists in Beit Hanoun, al-Fakhoura school and other places in Palestine." "Palestine is Islamic, and not an Islamic emirate, from the river to the sea, that unites the Palestinians. Jews have no right in it, with the exception of those who lived on the land of Palestine before World War I."
Hamas leader Mahmoud Al-Zahhar, Future News TV, June 15, 2010, Source: MEMRI.org "We have liberated Gaza, but have we recognized Israel? Have we given up our lands occupied in 1948? We demand the liberation of the West Bank, and the establishment of a state in the West Bank and Gaza, with Jerusalem as its capital – but without recognizing [Israel]. This is the key – without recognizing the Israeli enemy on a single inch of land... "Our plan for this stage is to liberate any inch of Palestinian land, and to establish a state on it. Our ultimate plan is [to have] Palestine in its entirety. I say this loud and clear so that nobody will accuse me of employing political tactics. We will not recognize the Israeli enemy. "
Sheikh Dr. Ahmad Bahar, acting Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council, April 20, 2007; as reported by Palestinian Media Watch, April 23, 2007 "This is Islam, that was ahead of its time with regards to human rights in the treatment of prisoners, but our nation was tested by the cancerous lump, that is the Jews, in the heart of the Arab nation... Be certain that America is on its way to utter destruction, America is wallowing [in blood] today in Iraq and Afghanistan, America is defeated and Israel is defeated, and was defeated in Lebanon and Palestine... Make us victorious over the community of infidels... Allah, take the Jews and their allies, Allah, take the Americans and their allies... Allah, annihilate them completely and do not leave anyone of them."
I haven't watched it yet, but I'm think they've overdone this particular franchise. Personally, I'd rather they come up with some new IP rather than just endless repetitions of the same old material. But what can you expect? The people who make these things got where they are doing what they're doing and have no reason to change.
On August 02 2014 13:46 darthfoley wrote: A powerful piece written by a Holocaust survivor. It is quite short, and will take no long than a couple of minutes to finish. Highly recommend: Beautiful dream of Israel has become a nightmare
As a Jewish youngster growing up in Budapest, an infant survivor of the Nazi genocide, I was for years haunted by a question resounding in my brain with such force that sometimes my head would spin: “How was it possible? How could the world have let such horrors happen?”
It was a naïve question, that of a child. I know better now: such is reality. Whether in Vietnam or Rwanda or Syria, humanity stands by either complicitly or unconsciously or helplessly, as it always does. In Gaza today we find ways of justifying the bombing of hospitals, the annihilation of families at dinner, the killing of pre-adolescents playing soccer on a beach.
Wow really good piece. But you can see where Israel is coming from. Unfortunately, not being Muslim in the Mideast/N. Africa is an absolute nightmare. The only period of peace for minority religions was in the former secular republics, like Lebanon at various points, Iraq before 2003 and Syria before the civil war, and Egypt. Now they're being mercilessly slaughtered in Iraq and Syria. But even before that, that it was various forms of persecution, genocide by Ottomans, and deportation by old Arab and Persian monarchs, just in the 20th century alone.
So you can see in this region, especially in the last decade, why minority religions in Muslim countries are extremely fearful, and why the Jews in Israel are extremely committed to protecting themselves. The downside of this is it has even before Israel was founded developed a highly nationalistic, ethnocentric, and martial culture that gives less care than they should to damage to civilians in warfare and other matters. If it weren't for the fact that practically every nation but the US condemns them, it wouldn't surprise me if the Israelis were far more aggressive and destructive. It's certainly within their interests, as the one safe place in the Mideast for non-Muslims, to do so. But there must be a balance. Fears and jingoism cannot lead to unjustifiable degrees of violence, and they need to stop puffing their chests because the US backs them to the hilt. Perhaps they should humbly realize that if not for the US, they'd be getting slapped with sanctions like crazy. It would sober them up, to say the least. But, they hold all the cards in this scenario and largely control the conflict. They can do more to prevent infrastructural destruction and death.
There is a significant jewish community in Iran, and even a jewish deputee. Israel is not committed to protecting themselves, they are commited to taking the land of their eretz israel, and plenty of people gave facts to support this point - going from statement from israeli high officials/politicians, arguments from political individuals such as Jimmy Carter, or even the charter of the Likud party. It is not about security, it is about creating and expanding their jewish state.
Yeah, and exactly the same evidence can be given for Palestina (and other nations in that region) not seeking peace and friendly relations with israel, but that they want to extinct that nation and conquer their land.
Palestine ? They are negociating since years, they already accepted all demands from Kerry and it's Israel who refused in the last peace talks... Show me the facts.
On August 03 2014 03:47 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:34 WhiteDog wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:27 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On August 02 2014 13:46 darthfoley wrote: A powerful piece written by a Holocaust survivor. It is quite short, and will take no long than a couple of minutes to finish. Highly recommend: Beautiful dream of Israel has become a nightmare
As a Jewish youngster growing up in Budapest, an infant survivor of the Nazi genocide, I was for years haunted by a question resounding in my brain with such force that sometimes my head would spin: “How was it possible? How could the world have let such horrors happen?”
It was a naïve question, that of a child. I know better now: such is reality. Whether in Vietnam or Rwanda or Syria, humanity stands by either complicitly or unconsciously or helplessly, as it always does. In Gaza today we find ways of justifying the bombing of hospitals, the annihilation of families at dinner, the killing of pre-adolescents playing soccer on a beach.
Wow really good piece. But you can see where Israel is coming from. Unfortunately, not being Muslim in the Mideast/N. Africa is an absolute nightmare. The only period of peace for minority religions was in the former secular republics, like Lebanon at various points, Iraq before 2003 and Syria before the civil war, and Egypt. Now they're being mercilessly slaughtered in Iraq and Syria. But even before that, that it was various forms of persecution, genocide by Ottomans, and deportation by old Arab and Persian monarchs, just in the 20th century alone.
So you can see in this region, especially in the last decade, why minority religions in Muslim countries are extremely fearful, and why the Jews in Israel are extremely committed to protecting themselves. The downside of this is it has even before Israel was founded developed a highly nationalistic, ethnocentric, and martial culture that gives less care than they should to damage to civilians in warfare and other matters. If it weren't for the fact that practically every nation but the US condemns them, it wouldn't surprise me if the Israelis were far more aggressive and destructive. It's certainly within their interests, as the one safe place in the Mideast for non-Muslims, to do so. But there must be a balance. Fears and jingoism cannot lead to unjustifiable degrees of violence, and they need to stop puffing their chests because the US backs them to the hilt. Perhaps they should humbly realize that if not for the US, they'd be getting slapped with sanctions like crazy. It would sober them up, to say the least. But, they hold all the cards in this scenario and largely control the conflict. They can do more to prevent infrastructural destruction and death.
There is a significant jewish community in Iran, and even jewish deputee. Israel is not committed to protecting themselves, their commited to taking the land of their eretz israel, and plenty of people gave facts to support this point - going from statement from israeli high officials/politicians, arguments from political individuals such as Jimmy Carter, or even the charter of the Likud party. It is not about security, it is about creating a jewish state.
Most of the Jews departed in the 40s/50s when Muslim monarchs decided it was a good idea to get rid of them, so they fled to Israel and the US, in particular Iranian Jews. Most of the remainder of Iranian Christians and Jews fled (and smartly so) when Jihadlord Khomeini took over in Iran. There's a significantly lower number of Jews in Iran than there were in 1948. There were over 100k back then. Now, there's estimates of ~30,000 but I remember seeing something a year ago from census data the reported less than 10,000. It is still a precarious situation there, and if we go back, was hostile in the years of Khomeini's takeover. Fortunately (or unfortunately), he was more intent on vengeance and attempting to conquer the Shiite holy cities than he was on persecuting non-Muslims too much.
I noted the overaggression of Israel, but the daily happenings in the Mideast and politics of many of the Mideastern Muslim states are enough to drive any Israeli to shitting their pants if they were to think about it too much. And things are only growing worse. The Islamic Revolution (which overthrew Iran's secular order and installed a jihad-focused regime), the embargo and following Iraq War (Iraq was the strongly dedicated anti-Islamist state in the region) and the Arab Spring (which have replaced stable secular regimes with Islamic extremists) have been monumentally disastrous for the Middle East and for the climate for Israel. The Jewish state has been around for 66 years. It has been created long ago. But what do you suggest? That it be dismantled? That Jews in the Mideast suffer the same fate as their Christian counterparts? No thanks. Sadly, we cannot simply change the history of things. We cannot erase the British/American and Spanish conquests of the native nations of the New World, just like we cannot erase the establishment of Israel by desperate and enraged Zionists. We must focus on the present.
I suggest they stop their colonialism. I'm not against the reality of Israel because doing so would be against my own value : ethnical cleansing and massacre, just like Israel has done and is doing. And the 4th military power in the world, armed with the nuclear bomb, doesn't fear anything from people who have no tanks nor airforce.
Given the political culture, I fear the colonialism won't stop. Sanctions would sober them and have them realize their mortality, but the US and AIPAC would never allow that to happen. Who's fearful of Palestinians? Rather, there's something to fear when you have countries like Egypt completely swagged out by the US who've held a precarious peace with Israel thanks to US money, a nation founded by jihad just a few countries to the east, and volatile Gulf oil sheikhs who don't know what to do with their infinite money besides supporting terrorists.
I agree with part of your statements, but saying that they fear about their neighbour is a bit disingenuous to me because the tension everybody feel towards them is largely due to their own policy. Considering the amount of unstability in the middle east they are not receiving any threat from Iraq or Syria, so it's safe to say that if they finally ended their desire to acquire palestinians territory and accepted to settle, things could desescalate from there and we could foresee a true peace in the next decade.
Btw I didn't respond but Khomeni declared a fatwa on protecting the jews in Iran, so they were far from wanting to persecute them.
On August 02 2014 13:46 darthfoley wrote: A powerful piece written by a Holocaust survivor. It is quite short, and will take no long than a couple of minutes to finish. Highly recommend: Beautiful dream of Israel has become a nightmare
As a Jewish youngster growing up in Budapest, an infant survivor of the Nazi genocide, I was for years haunted by a question resounding in my brain with such force that sometimes my head would spin: “How was it possible? How could the world have let such horrors happen?”
It was a naïve question, that of a child. I know better now: such is reality. Whether in Vietnam or Rwanda or Syria, humanity stands by either complicitly or unconsciously or helplessly, as it always does. In Gaza today we find ways of justifying the bombing of hospitals, the annihilation of families at dinner, the killing of pre-adolescents playing soccer on a beach.
Wow really good piece. But you can see where Israel is coming from. Unfortunately, not being Muslim in the Mideast/N. Africa is an absolute nightmare. The only period of peace for minority religions was in the former secular republics, like Lebanon at various points, Iraq before 2003 and Syria before the civil war, and Egypt. Now they're being mercilessly slaughtered in Iraq and Syria. But even before that, that it was various forms of persecution, genocide by Ottomans, and deportation by old Arab and Persian monarchs, just in the 20th century alone.
So you can see in this region, especially in the last decade, why minority religions in Muslim countries are extremely fearful, and why the Jews in Israel are extremely committed to protecting themselves. The downside of this is it has even before Israel was founded developed a highly nationalistic, ethnocentric, and martial culture that gives less care than they should to damage to civilians in warfare and other matters. If it weren't for the fact that practically every nation but the US condemns them, it wouldn't surprise me if the Israelis were far more aggressive and destructive. It's certainly within their interests, as the one safe place in the Mideast for non-Muslims, to do so. But there must be a balance. Fears and jingoism cannot lead to unjustifiable degrees of violence, and they need to stop puffing their chests because the US backs them to the hilt. Perhaps they should humbly realize that if not for the US, they'd be getting slapped with sanctions like crazy. It would sober them up, to say the least. But, they hold all the cards in this scenario and largely control the conflict. They can do more to prevent infrastructural destruction and death.
There is a significant jewish community in Iran, and even a jewish deputee. Israel is not committed to protecting themselves, they are commited to taking the land of their eretz israel, and plenty of people gave facts to support this point - going from statement from israeli high officials/politicians, arguments from political individuals such as Jimmy Carter, or even the charter of the Likud party. It is not about security, it is about creating and expanding their jewish state.
Yeah, and exactly the same evidence can be given for Palestina (and other nations in that region) not seeking peace and friendly relations with israel, but that they want to extinct that nation and conquer their land.
Palestine ? They are negociating since years, they already accepted all demands from Kerry and it's Israel who refused in the last peace talks... Show me the facts.
Prefixing: I did not imply that they are not negotiating, nor do I say or believe anything like that. My point is solely that there are quotes and that there is evidence for both sides demanding the other parties land. And in the same spirit of arguing "they are negotiating, so they cannot mean to destroy Israel", you can say "Israel gave the land to them, so they cannot mean to reconquer it". Below the quotes that you are seeking:
Hamas official Halil Al-Hayya, Al-Hayat newspaper, November 11, 2010 "The lie of the Zionist Holocaust crumbles with countless holocausts committed by the Zionists in Beit Hanoun, al-Fakhoura school and other places in Palestine." "Palestine is Islamic, and not an Islamic emirate, from the river to the sea, that unites the Palestinians. Jews have no right in it, with the exception of those who lived on the land of Palestine before World War I."
Hamas leader Mahmoud Al-Zahhar, Future News TV, June 15, 2010, Source: MEMRI.org "We have liberated Gaza, but have we recognized Israel? Have we given up our lands occupied in 1948? We demand the liberation of the West Bank, and the establishment of a state in the West Bank and Gaza, with Jerusalem as its capital – but without recognizing [Israel]. This is the key – without recognizing the Israeli enemy on a single inch of land... "Our plan for this stage is to liberate any inch of Palestinian land, and to establish a state on it. Our ultimate plan is [to have] Palestine in its entirety. I say this loud and clear so that nobody will accuse me of employing political tactics. We will not recognize the Israeli enemy. "
Sheikh Dr. Ahmad Bahar, acting Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council, April 20, 2007; as reported by Palestinian Media Watch, April 23, 2007 "This is Islam, that was ahead of its time with regards to human rights in the treatment of prisoners, but our nation was tested by the cancerous lump, that is the Jews, in the heart of the Arab nation... Be certain that America is on its way to utter destruction, America is wallowing [in blood] today in Iraq and Afghanistan, America is defeated and Israel is defeated, and was defeated in Lebanon and Palestine... Make us victorious over the community of infidels... Allah, take the Jews and their allies, Allah, take the Americans and their allies... Allah, annihilate them completely and do not leave anyone of them."
You gave no fact that palestinians refuse peace, you only quoted things from Hamas. Hamas is not palestine, it does not even represent the majority of Gazans. Jimmy Carter quoted several pools showing gazans are, in majority, for peace and a settlement based on the two state solution. He talk about it somewhere in this conference at Brandeis university :
On August 02 2014 13:46 darthfoley wrote: A powerful piece written by a Holocaust survivor. It is quite short, and will take no long than a couple of minutes to finish. Highly recommend: Beautiful dream of Israel has become a nightmare
As a Jewish youngster growing up in Budapest, an infant survivor of the Nazi genocide, I was for years haunted by a question resounding in my brain with such force that sometimes my head would spin: “How was it possible? How could the world have let such horrors happen?”
It was a naïve question, that of a child. I know better now: such is reality. Whether in Vietnam or Rwanda or Syria, humanity stands by either complicitly or unconsciously or helplessly, as it always does. In Gaza today we find ways of justifying the bombing of hospitals, the annihilation of families at dinner, the killing of pre-adolescents playing soccer on a beach.
Wow really good piece. But you can see where Israel is coming from. Unfortunately, not being Muslim in the Mideast/N. Africa is an absolute nightmare. The only period of peace for minority religions was in the former secular republics, like Lebanon at various points, Iraq before 2003 and Syria before the civil war, and Egypt. Now they're being mercilessly slaughtered in Iraq and Syria. But even before that, that it was various forms of persecution, genocide by Ottomans, and deportation by old Arab and Persian monarchs, just in the 20th century alone.
So you can see in this region, especially in the last decade, why minority religions in Muslim countries are extremely fearful, and why the Jews in Israel are extremely committed to protecting themselves. The downside of this is it has even before Israel was founded developed a highly nationalistic, ethnocentric, and martial culture that gives less care than they should to damage to civilians in warfare and other matters. If it weren't for the fact that practically every nation but the US condemns them, it wouldn't surprise me if the Israelis were far more aggressive and destructive. It's certainly within their interests, as the one safe place in the Mideast for non-Muslims, to do so. But there must be a balance. Fears and jingoism cannot lead to unjustifiable degrees of violence, and they need to stop puffing their chests because the US backs them to the hilt. Perhaps they should humbly realize that if not for the US, they'd be getting slapped with sanctions like crazy. It would sober them up, to say the least. But, they hold all the cards in this scenario and largely control the conflict. They can do more to prevent infrastructural destruction and death.
There is a significant jewish community in Iran, and even a jewish deputee. Israel is not committed to protecting themselves, they are commited to taking the land of their eretz israel, and plenty of people gave facts to support this point - going from statement from israeli high officials/politicians, arguments from political individuals such as Jimmy Carter, or even the charter of the Likud party. It is not about security, it is about creating and expanding their jewish state.
Yeah, and exactly the same evidence can be given for Palestina (and other nations in that region) not seeking peace and friendly relations with israel, but that they want to extinct that nation and conquer their land.
Palestine ? They are negociating since years, they already accepted all demands from Kerry and it's Israel who refused in the last peace talks... Show me the facts.
On August 03 2014 03:47 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:34 WhiteDog wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:27 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On August 02 2014 13:46 darthfoley wrote: A powerful piece written by a Holocaust survivor. It is quite short, and will take no long than a couple of minutes to finish. Highly recommend: Beautiful dream of Israel has become a nightmare
As a Jewish youngster growing up in Budapest, an infant survivor of the Nazi genocide, I was for years haunted by a question resounding in my brain with such force that sometimes my head would spin: “How was it possible? How could the world have let such horrors happen?”
It was a naïve question, that of a child. I know better now: such is reality. Whether in Vietnam or Rwanda or Syria, humanity stands by either complicitly or unconsciously or helplessly, as it always does. In Gaza today we find ways of justifying the bombing of hospitals, the annihilation of families at dinner, the killing of pre-adolescents playing soccer on a beach.
Wow really good piece. But you can see where Israel is coming from. Unfortunately, not being Muslim in the Mideast/N. Africa is an absolute nightmare. The only period of peace for minority religions was in the former secular republics, like Lebanon at various points, Iraq before 2003 and Syria before the civil war, and Egypt. Now they're being mercilessly slaughtered in Iraq and Syria. But even before that, that it was various forms of persecution, genocide by Ottomans, and deportation by old Arab and Persian monarchs, just in the 20th century alone.
So you can see in this region, especially in the last decade, why minority religions in Muslim countries are extremely fearful, and why the Jews in Israel are extremely committed to protecting themselves. The downside of this is it has even before Israel was founded developed a highly nationalistic, ethnocentric, and martial culture that gives less care than they should to damage to civilians in warfare and other matters. If it weren't for the fact that practically every nation but the US condemns them, it wouldn't surprise me if the Israelis were far more aggressive and destructive. It's certainly within their interests, as the one safe place in the Mideast for non-Muslims, to do so. But there must be a balance. Fears and jingoism cannot lead to unjustifiable degrees of violence, and they need to stop puffing their chests because the US backs them to the hilt. Perhaps they should humbly realize that if not for the US, they'd be getting slapped with sanctions like crazy. It would sober them up, to say the least. But, they hold all the cards in this scenario and largely control the conflict. They can do more to prevent infrastructural destruction and death.
There is a significant jewish community in Iran, and even jewish deputee. Israel is not committed to protecting themselves, their commited to taking the land of their eretz israel, and plenty of people gave facts to support this point - going from statement from israeli high officials/politicians, arguments from political individuals such as Jimmy Carter, or even the charter of the Likud party. It is not about security, it is about creating a jewish state.
Most of the Jews departed in the 40s/50s when Muslim monarchs decided it was a good idea to get rid of them, so they fled to Israel and the US, in particular Iranian Jews. Most of the remainder of Iranian Christians and Jews fled (and smartly so) when Jihadlord Khomeini took over in Iran. There's a significantly lower number of Jews in Iran than there were in 1948. There were over 100k back then. Now, there's estimates of ~30,000 but I remember seeing something a year ago from census data the reported less than 10,000. It is still a precarious situation there, and if we go back, was hostile in the years of Khomeini's takeover. Fortunately (or unfortunately), he was more intent on vengeance and attempting to conquer the Shiite holy cities than he was on persecuting non-Muslims too much.
I noted the overaggression of Israel, but the daily happenings in the Mideast and politics of many of the Mideastern Muslim states are enough to drive any Israeli to shitting their pants if they were to think about it too much. And things are only growing worse. The Islamic Revolution (which overthrew Iran's secular order and installed a jihad-focused regime), the embargo and following Iraq War (Iraq was the strongly dedicated anti-Islamist state in the region) and the Arab Spring (which have replaced stable secular regimes with Islamic extremists) have been monumentally disastrous for the Middle East and for the climate for Israel. The Jewish state has been around for 66 years. It has been created long ago. But what do you suggest? That it be dismantled? That Jews in the Mideast suffer the same fate as their Christian counterparts? No thanks. Sadly, we cannot simply change the history of things. We cannot erase the British/American and Spanish conquests of the native nations of the New World, just like we cannot erase the establishment of Israel by desperate and enraged Zionists. We must focus on the present.
I suggest they stop their colonialism. I'm not against the reality of Israel because doing so would be against my own value : ethnical cleansing and massacre, just like Israel has done and is doing. And the 4th military power in the world, armed with the nuclear bomb, doesn't fear anything from people who have no tanks nor airforce.
Given the political culture, I fear the colonialism won't stop. Sanctions would sober them and have them realize their mortality, but the US and AIPAC would never allow that to happen. Who's fearful of Palestinians? Rather, there's something to fear when you have countries like Egypt completely swagged out by the US who've held a precarious peace with Israel thanks to US money, a nation founded by jihad just a few countries to the east, and volatile Gulf oil sheikhs who don't know what to do with their infinite money besides supporting terrorists.
I agree with part of your statements, but saying that they fear about their neighbour is a bit disingenuous to me because the tension everybody feel towards them is largely due to their own policy. Considering the amount of unstability in the middle east they are not receiving any threat from Iraq or Syria, so it's safe to say that if they finally ended their desire to acquire palestinians territory and accepted to settle, things could desescalate from there and we could foresee a true peace in the next decade.
Btw I didn't respond but Khomeni declared a fatwa on protecting the jews in Iran, so they were far from wanting to persecute them.
On August 02 2014 13:46 darthfoley wrote: A powerful piece written by a Holocaust survivor. It is quite short, and will take no long than a couple of minutes to finish. Highly recommend: Beautiful dream of Israel has become a nightmare
As a Jewish youngster growing up in Budapest, an infant survivor of the Nazi genocide, I was for years haunted by a question resounding in my brain with such force that sometimes my head would spin: “How was it possible? How could the world have let such horrors happen?”
It was a naïve question, that of a child. I know better now: such is reality. Whether in Vietnam or Rwanda or Syria, humanity stands by either complicitly or unconsciously or helplessly, as it always does. In Gaza today we find ways of justifying the bombing of hospitals, the annihilation of families at dinner, the killing of pre-adolescents playing soccer on a beach.
Wow really good piece. But you can see where Israel is coming from. Unfortunately, not being Muslim in the Mideast/N. Africa is an absolute nightmare. The only period of peace for minority religions was in the former secular republics, like Lebanon at various points, Iraq before 2003 and Syria before the civil war, and Egypt. Now they're being mercilessly slaughtered in Iraq and Syria. But even before that, that it was various forms of persecution, genocide by Ottomans, and deportation by old Arab and Persian monarchs, just in the 20th century alone.
So you can see in this region, especially in the last decade, why minority religions in Muslim countries are extremely fearful, and why the Jews in Israel are extremely committed to protecting themselves. The downside of this is it has even before Israel was founded developed a highly nationalistic, ethnocentric, and martial culture that gives less care than they should to damage to civilians in warfare and other matters. If it weren't for the fact that practically every nation but the US condemns them, it wouldn't surprise me if the Israelis were far more aggressive and destructive. It's certainly within their interests, as the one safe place in the Mideast for non-Muslims, to do so. But there must be a balance. Fears and jingoism cannot lead to unjustifiable degrees of violence, and they need to stop puffing their chests because the US backs them to the hilt. Perhaps they should humbly realize that if not for the US, they'd be getting slapped with sanctions like crazy. It would sober them up, to say the least. But, they hold all the cards in this scenario and largely control the conflict. They can do more to prevent infrastructural destruction and death.
There is a significant jewish community in Iran, and even a jewish deputee. Israel is not committed to protecting themselves, they are commited to taking the land of their eretz israel, and plenty of people gave facts to support this point - going from statement from israeli high officials/politicians, arguments from political individuals such as Jimmy Carter, or even the charter of the Likud party. It is not about security, it is about creating and expanding their jewish state.
Yeah, and exactly the same evidence can be given for Palestina (and other nations in that region) not seeking peace and friendly relations with israel, but that they want to extinct that nation and conquer their land.
Palestine ? They are negociating since years, they already accepted all demands from Kerry and it's Israel who refused in the last peace talks... Show me the facts.
Prefixing: I did not imply that they are not negotiating, nor do I say or believe anything like that. My point is solely that there are quotes and that there is evidence for both sides demanding the other parties land. And in the same spirit of arguing "they are negotiating, so they cannot mean to destroy Israel", you can say "Israel gave the land to them, so they cannot mean to reconquer it". Below the quotes that you are seeking:
Hamas official Halil Al-Hayya, Al-Hayat newspaper, November 11, 2010 "The lie of the Zionist Holocaust crumbles with countless holocausts committed by the Zionists in Beit Hanoun, al-Fakhoura school and other places in Palestine." "Palestine is Islamic, and not an Islamic emirate, from the river to the sea, that unites the Palestinians. Jews have no right in it, with the exception of those who lived on the land of Palestine before World War I."
Hamas leader Mahmoud Al-Zahhar, Future News TV, June 15, 2010, Source: MEMRI.org "We have liberated Gaza, but have we recognized Israel? Have we given up our lands occupied in 1948? We demand the liberation of the West Bank, and the establishment of a state in the West Bank and Gaza, with Jerusalem as its capital – but without recognizing [Israel]. This is the key – without recognizing the Israeli enemy on a single inch of land... "Our plan for this stage is to liberate any inch of Palestinian land, and to establish a state on it. Our ultimate plan is [to have] Palestine in its entirety. I say this loud and clear so that nobody will accuse me of employing political tactics. We will not recognize the Israeli enemy. "
Sheikh Dr. Ahmad Bahar, acting Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council, April 20, 2007; as reported by Palestinian Media Watch, April 23, 2007 "This is Islam, that was ahead of its time with regards to human rights in the treatment of prisoners, but our nation was tested by the cancerous lump, that is the Jews, in the heart of the Arab nation... Be certain that America is on its way to utter destruction, America is wallowing [in blood] today in Iraq and Afghanistan, America is defeated and Israel is defeated, and was defeated in Lebanon and Palestine... Make us victorious over the community of infidels... Allah, take the Jews and their allies, Allah, take the Americans and their allies... Allah, annihilate them completely and do not leave anyone of them."
You gave no fact that palestinians refuse peace, you only quoted things from Hamas. Hamas is not palestine, it does not even represent the majority of Gazans. Jimmy Carter quoted several pools showing gazans are, in majority, for peace and a settlement base on the two state solution. He talk about it somewhere in this conference at Brandeis university :
Then quote one person that represents the majority of Israel. And PROOF that he represents the majority of them. Not argue. PROOF! You have double standards for the quality of arguments given.
And the Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council is not a Hamas function...
On August 02 2014 13:46 darthfoley wrote: A powerful piece written by a Holocaust survivor. It is quite short, and will take no long than a couple of minutes to finish. Highly recommend: Beautiful dream of Israel has become a nightmare
As a Jewish youngster growing up in Budapest, an infant survivor of the Nazi genocide, I was for years haunted by a question resounding in my brain with such force that sometimes my head would spin: “How was it possible? How could the world have let such horrors happen?”
It was a naïve question, that of a child. I know better now: such is reality. Whether in Vietnam or Rwanda or Syria, humanity stands by either complicitly or unconsciously or helplessly, as it always does. In Gaza today we find ways of justifying the bombing of hospitals, the annihilation of families at dinner, the killing of pre-adolescents playing soccer on a beach.
Wow really good piece. But you can see where Israel is coming from. Unfortunately, not being Muslim in the Mideast/N. Africa is an absolute nightmare. The only period of peace for minority religions was in the former secular republics, like Lebanon at various points, Iraq before 2003 and Syria before the civil war, and Egypt. Now they're being mercilessly slaughtered in Iraq and Syria. But even before that, that it was various forms of persecution, genocide by Ottomans, and deportation by old Arab and Persian monarchs, just in the 20th century alone.
So you can see in this region, especially in the last decade, why minority religions in Muslim countries are extremely fearful, and why the Jews in Israel are extremely committed to protecting themselves. The downside of this is it has even before Israel was founded developed a highly nationalistic, ethnocentric, and martial culture that gives less care than they should to damage to civilians in warfare and other matters. If it weren't for the fact that practically every nation but the US condemns them, it wouldn't surprise me if the Israelis were far more aggressive and destructive. It's certainly within their interests, as the one safe place in the Mideast for non-Muslims, to do so. But there must be a balance. Fears and jingoism cannot lead to unjustifiable degrees of violence, and they need to stop puffing their chests because the US backs them to the hilt. Perhaps they should humbly realize that if not for the US, they'd be getting slapped with sanctions like crazy. It would sober them up, to say the least. But, they hold all the cards in this scenario and largely control the conflict. They can do more to prevent infrastructural destruction and death.
There is a significant jewish community in Iran, and even a jewish deputee. Israel is not committed to protecting themselves, they are commited to taking the land of their eretz israel, and plenty of people gave facts to support this point - going from statement from israeli high officials/politicians, arguments from political individuals such as Jimmy Carter, or even the charter of the Likud party. It is not about security, it is about creating and expanding their jewish state.
Yeah, and exactly the same evidence can be given for Palestina (and other nations in that region) not seeking peace and friendly relations with israel, but that they want to extinct that nation and conquer their land.
Palestine ? They are negociating since years, they already accepted all demands from Kerry and it's Israel who refused in the last peace talks... Show me the facts.
On August 03 2014 03:47 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:34 WhiteDog wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:27 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On August 02 2014 13:46 darthfoley wrote: A powerful piece written by a Holocaust survivor. It is quite short, and will take no long than a couple of minutes to finish. Highly recommend: Beautiful dream of Israel has become a nightmare
As a Jewish youngster growing up in Budapest, an infant survivor of the Nazi genocide, I was for years haunted by a question resounding in my brain with such force that sometimes my head would spin: “How was it possible? How could the world have let such horrors happen?”
It was a naïve question, that of a child. I know better now: such is reality. Whether in Vietnam or Rwanda or Syria, humanity stands by either complicitly or unconsciously or helplessly, as it always does. In Gaza today we find ways of justifying the bombing of hospitals, the annihilation of families at dinner, the killing of pre-adolescents playing soccer on a beach.
Wow really good piece. But you can see where Israel is coming from. Unfortunately, not being Muslim in the Mideast/N. Africa is an absolute nightmare. The only period of peace for minority religions was in the former secular republics, like Lebanon at various points, Iraq before 2003 and Syria before the civil war, and Egypt. Now they're being mercilessly slaughtered in Iraq and Syria. But even before that, that it was various forms of persecution, genocide by Ottomans, and deportation by old Arab and Persian monarchs, just in the 20th century alone.
So you can see in this region, especially in the last decade, why minority religions in Muslim countries are extremely fearful, and why the Jews in Israel are extremely committed to protecting themselves. The downside of this is it has even before Israel was founded developed a highly nationalistic, ethnocentric, and martial culture that gives less care than they should to damage to civilians in warfare and other matters. If it weren't for the fact that practically every nation but the US condemns them, it wouldn't surprise me if the Israelis were far more aggressive and destructive. It's certainly within their interests, as the one safe place in the Mideast for non-Muslims, to do so. But there must be a balance. Fears and jingoism cannot lead to unjustifiable degrees of violence, and they need to stop puffing their chests because the US backs them to the hilt. Perhaps they should humbly realize that if not for the US, they'd be getting slapped with sanctions like crazy. It would sober them up, to say the least. But, they hold all the cards in this scenario and largely control the conflict. They can do more to prevent infrastructural destruction and death.
There is a significant jewish community in Iran, and even jewish deputee. Israel is not committed to protecting themselves, their commited to taking the land of their eretz israel, and plenty of people gave facts to support this point - going from statement from israeli high officials/politicians, arguments from political individuals such as Jimmy Carter, or even the charter of the Likud party. It is not about security, it is about creating a jewish state.
Most of the Jews departed in the 40s/50s when Muslim monarchs decided it was a good idea to get rid of them, so they fled to Israel and the US, in particular Iranian Jews. Most of the remainder of Iranian Christians and Jews fled (and smartly so) when Jihadlord Khomeini took over in Iran. There's a significantly lower number of Jews in Iran than there were in 1948. There were over 100k back then. Now, there's estimates of ~30,000 but I remember seeing something a year ago from census data the reported less than 10,000. It is still a precarious situation there, and if we go back, was hostile in the years of Khomeini's takeover. Fortunately (or unfortunately), he was more intent on vengeance and attempting to conquer the Shiite holy cities than he was on persecuting non-Muslims too much.
I noted the overaggression of Israel, but the daily happenings in the Mideast and politics of many of the Mideastern Muslim states are enough to drive any Israeli to shitting their pants if they were to think about it too much. And things are only growing worse. The Islamic Revolution (which overthrew Iran's secular order and installed a jihad-focused regime), the embargo and following Iraq War (Iraq was the strongly dedicated anti-Islamist state in the region) and the Arab Spring (which have replaced stable secular regimes with Islamic extremists) have been monumentally disastrous for the Middle East and for the climate for Israel. The Jewish state has been around for 66 years. It has been created long ago. But what do you suggest? That it be dismantled? That Jews in the Mideast suffer the same fate as their Christian counterparts? No thanks. Sadly, we cannot simply change the history of things. We cannot erase the British/American and Spanish conquests of the native nations of the New World, just like we cannot erase the establishment of Israel by desperate and enraged Zionists. We must focus on the present.
I suggest they stop their colonialism. I'm not against the reality of Israel because doing so would be against my own value : ethnical cleansing and massacre, just like Israel has done and is doing. And the 4th military power in the world, armed with the nuclear bomb, doesn't fear anything from people who have no tanks nor airforce.
Given the political culture, I fear the colonialism won't stop. Sanctions would sober them and have them realize their mortality, but the US and AIPAC would never allow that to happen. Who's fearful of Palestinians? Rather, there's something to fear when you have countries like Egypt completely swagged out by the US who've held a precarious peace with Israel thanks to US money, a nation founded by jihad just a few countries to the east, and volatile Gulf oil sheikhs who don't know what to do with their infinite money besides supporting terrorists.
I agree with part of your statements, but saying that they fear about their neighbour is a bit disingenuous to me because the tension everybody feel towards them is largely due to their own policy. Considering the amount of unstability in the middle east they are not receiving any threat from Iraq or Syria, so it's safe to say that if they finally ended their desire to acquire palestinians territory and accepted to settle, things could desescalate from there and we could foresee a true peace in the next decade.
Btw I didn't respond but Khomeni declared a fatwa on protecting the jews in Iran, so they were far from wanting to persecute them.
On August 03 2014 04:10 Big J wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:50 WhiteDog wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:43 Big J wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:34 WhiteDog wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:27 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On August 02 2014 13:46 darthfoley wrote: A powerful piece written by a Holocaust survivor. It is quite short, and will take no long than a couple of minutes to finish. Highly recommend: Beautiful dream of Israel has become a nightmare
As a Jewish youngster growing up in Budapest, an infant survivor of the Nazi genocide, I was for years haunted by a question resounding in my brain with such force that sometimes my head would spin: “How was it possible? How could the world have let such horrors happen?”
It was a naïve question, that of a child. I know better now: such is reality. Whether in Vietnam or Rwanda or Syria, humanity stands by either complicitly or unconsciously or helplessly, as it always does. In Gaza today we find ways of justifying the bombing of hospitals, the annihilation of families at dinner, the killing of pre-adolescents playing soccer on a beach.
Wow really good piece. But you can see where Israel is coming from. Unfortunately, not being Muslim in the Mideast/N. Africa is an absolute nightmare. The only period of peace for minority religions was in the former secular republics, like Lebanon at various points, Iraq before 2003 and Syria before the civil war, and Egypt. Now they're being mercilessly slaughtered in Iraq and Syria. But even before that, that it was various forms of persecution, genocide by Ottomans, and deportation by old Arab and Persian monarchs, just in the 20th century alone.
So you can see in this region, especially in the last decade, why minority religions in Muslim countries are extremely fearful, and why the Jews in Israel are extremely committed to protecting themselves. The downside of this is it has even before Israel was founded developed a highly nationalistic, ethnocentric, and martial culture that gives less care than they should to damage to civilians in warfare and other matters. If it weren't for the fact that practically every nation but the US condemns them, it wouldn't surprise me if the Israelis were far more aggressive and destructive. It's certainly within their interests, as the one safe place in the Mideast for non-Muslims, to do so. But there must be a balance. Fears and jingoism cannot lead to unjustifiable degrees of violence, and they need to stop puffing their chests because the US backs them to the hilt. Perhaps they should humbly realize that if not for the US, they'd be getting slapped with sanctions like crazy. It would sober them up, to say the least. But, they hold all the cards in this scenario and largely control the conflict. They can do more to prevent infrastructural destruction and death.
There is a significant jewish community in Iran, and even a jewish deputee. Israel is not committed to protecting themselves, they are commited to taking the land of their eretz israel, and plenty of people gave facts to support this point - going from statement from israeli high officials/politicians, arguments from political individuals such as Jimmy Carter, or even the charter of the Likud party. It is not about security, it is about creating and expanding their jewish state.
Yeah, and exactly the same evidence can be given for Palestina (and other nations in that region) not seeking peace and friendly relations with israel, but that they want to extinct that nation and conquer their land.
Palestine ? They are negociating since years, they already accepted all demands from Kerry and it's Israel who refused in the last peace talks... Show me the facts.
Prefixing: I did not imply that they are not negotiating, nor do I say or believe anything like that. My point is solely that there are quotes and that there is evidence for both sides demanding the other parties land. And in the same spirit of arguing "they are negotiating, so they cannot mean to destroy Israel", you can say "Israel gave the land to them, so they cannot mean to reconquer it". Below the quotes that you are seeking:
Hamas official Halil Al-Hayya, Al-Hayat newspaper, November 11, 2010 "The lie of the Zionist Holocaust crumbles with countless holocausts committed by the Zionists in Beit Hanoun, al-Fakhoura school and other places in Palestine." "Palestine is Islamic, and not an Islamic emirate, from the river to the sea, that unites the Palestinians. Jews have no right in it, with the exception of those who lived on the land of Palestine before World War I."
Hamas leader Mahmoud Al-Zahhar, Future News TV, June 15, 2010, Source: MEMRI.org "We have liberated Gaza, but have we recognized Israel? Have we given up our lands occupied in 1948? We demand the liberation of the West Bank, and the establishment of a state in the West Bank and Gaza, with Jerusalem as its capital – but without recognizing [Israel]. This is the key – without recognizing the Israeli enemy on a single inch of land... "Our plan for this stage is to liberate any inch of Palestinian land, and to establish a state on it. Our ultimate plan is [to have] Palestine in its entirety. I say this loud and clear so that nobody will accuse me of employing political tactics. We will not recognize the Israeli enemy. "
Sheikh Dr. Ahmad Bahar, acting Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council, April 20, 2007; as reported by Palestinian Media Watch, April 23, 2007 "This is Islam, that was ahead of its time with regards to human rights in the treatment of prisoners, but our nation was tested by the cancerous lump, that is the Jews, in the heart of the Arab nation... Be certain that America is on its way to utter destruction, America is wallowing [in blood] today in Iraq and Afghanistan, America is defeated and Israel is defeated, and was defeated in Lebanon and Palestine... Make us victorious over the community of infidels... Allah, take the Jews and their allies, Allah, take the Americans and their allies... Allah, annihilate them completely and do not leave anyone of them."
You gave no fact that palestinians refuse peace, you only quoted things from Hamas. Hamas is not palestine, it does not even represent the majority of Gazans. Jimmy Carter quoted several pools showing gazans are, in majority, for peace and a settlement base on the two state solution. He talk about it somewhere in this conference at Brandeis university :
Then quote one person that represents the majority of Israel. And PROOF that he represents the majority of them. Not argue. PROOF!
And the Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council is not a Hamas function...
The Likud is the dominant party in Israel. Netanyahu has 85 % approval rate or something ridiculous like that. Note that Israel has a government and a state, unlike Palestinian.
c. “The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.”
d. “The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.”
On August 02 2014 13:46 darthfoley wrote: A powerful piece written by a Holocaust survivor. It is quite short, and will take no long than a couple of minutes to finish. Highly recommend: Beautiful dream of Israel has become a nightmare
As a Jewish youngster growing up in Budapest, an infant survivor of the Nazi genocide, I was for years haunted by a question resounding in my brain with such force that sometimes my head would spin: “How was it possible? How could the world have let such horrors happen?”
It was a naïve question, that of a child. I know better now: such is reality. Whether in Vietnam or Rwanda or Syria, humanity stands by either complicitly or unconsciously or helplessly, as it always does. In Gaza today we find ways of justifying the bombing of hospitals, the annihilation of families at dinner, the killing of pre-adolescents playing soccer on a beach.
Wow really good piece. But you can see where Israel is coming from. Unfortunately, not being Muslim in the Mideast/N. Africa is an absolute nightmare. The only period of peace for minority religions was in the former secular republics, like Lebanon at various points, Iraq before 2003 and Syria before the civil war, and Egypt. Now they're being mercilessly slaughtered in Iraq and Syria. But even before that, that it was various forms of persecution, genocide by Ottomans, and deportation by old Arab and Persian monarchs, just in the 20th century alone.
So you can see in this region, especially in the last decade, why minority religions in Muslim countries are extremely fearful, and why the Jews in Israel are extremely committed to protecting themselves. The downside of this is it has even before Israel was founded developed a highly nationalistic, ethnocentric, and martial culture that gives less care than they should to damage to civilians in warfare and other matters. If it weren't for the fact that practically every nation but the US condemns them, it wouldn't surprise me if the Israelis were far more aggressive and destructive. It's certainly within their interests, as the one safe place in the Mideast for non-Muslims, to do so. But there must be a balance. Fears and jingoism cannot lead to unjustifiable degrees of violence, and they need to stop puffing their chests because the US backs them to the hilt. Perhaps they should humbly realize that if not for the US, they'd be getting slapped with sanctions like crazy. It would sober them up, to say the least. But, they hold all the cards in this scenario and largely control the conflict. They can do more to prevent infrastructural destruction and death.
There is a significant jewish community in Iran, and even a jewish deputee. Israel is not committed to protecting themselves, they are commited to taking the land of their eretz israel, and plenty of people gave facts to support this point - going from statement from israeli high officials/politicians, arguments from political individuals such as Jimmy Carter, or even the charter of the Likud party. It is not about security, it is about creating and expanding their jewish state.
Yeah, and exactly the same evidence can be given for Palestina (and other nations in that region) not seeking peace and friendly relations with israel, but that they want to extinct that nation and conquer their land.
Palestine ? They are negociating since years, they already accepted all demands from Kerry and it's Israel who refused in the last peace talks... Show me the facts.
On August 03 2014 03:47 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:34 WhiteDog wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:27 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On August 02 2014 13:46 darthfoley wrote: A powerful piece written by a Holocaust survivor. It is quite short, and will take no long than a couple of minutes to finish. Highly recommend: Beautiful dream of Israel has become a nightmare
As a Jewish youngster growing up in Budapest, an infant survivor of the Nazi genocide, I was for years haunted by a question resounding in my brain with such force that sometimes my head would spin: “How was it possible? How could the world have let such horrors happen?”
It was a naïve question, that of a child. I know better now: such is reality. Whether in Vietnam or Rwanda or Syria, humanity stands by either complicitly or unconsciously or helplessly, as it always does. In Gaza today we find ways of justifying the bombing of hospitals, the annihilation of families at dinner, the killing of pre-adolescents playing soccer on a beach.
Wow really good piece. But you can see where Israel is coming from. Unfortunately, not being Muslim in the Mideast/N. Africa is an absolute nightmare. The only period of peace for minority religions was in the former secular republics, like Lebanon at various points, Iraq before 2003 and Syria before the civil war, and Egypt. Now they're being mercilessly slaughtered in Iraq and Syria. But even before that, that it was various forms of persecution, genocide by Ottomans, and deportation by old Arab and Persian monarchs, just in the 20th century alone.
So you can see in this region, especially in the last decade, why minority religions in Muslim countries are extremely fearful, and why the Jews in Israel are extremely committed to protecting themselves. The downside of this is it has even before Israel was founded developed a highly nationalistic, ethnocentric, and martial culture that gives less care than they should to damage to civilians in warfare and other matters. If it weren't for the fact that practically every nation but the US condemns them, it wouldn't surprise me if the Israelis were far more aggressive and destructive. It's certainly within their interests, as the one safe place in the Mideast for non-Muslims, to do so. But there must be a balance. Fears and jingoism cannot lead to unjustifiable degrees of violence, and they need to stop puffing their chests because the US backs them to the hilt. Perhaps they should humbly realize that if not for the US, they'd be getting slapped with sanctions like crazy. It would sober them up, to say the least. But, they hold all the cards in this scenario and largely control the conflict. They can do more to prevent infrastructural destruction and death.
There is a significant jewish community in Iran, and even jewish deputee. Israel is not committed to protecting themselves, their commited to taking the land of their eretz israel, and plenty of people gave facts to support this point - going from statement from israeli high officials/politicians, arguments from political individuals such as Jimmy Carter, or even the charter of the Likud party. It is not about security, it is about creating a jewish state.
Most of the Jews departed in the 40s/50s when Muslim monarchs decided it was a good idea to get rid of them, so they fled to Israel and the US, in particular Iranian Jews. Most of the remainder of Iranian Christians and Jews fled (and smartly so) when Jihadlord Khomeini took over in Iran. There's a significantly lower number of Jews in Iran than there were in 1948. There were over 100k back then. Now, there's estimates of ~30,000 but I remember seeing something a year ago from census data the reported less than 10,000. It is still a precarious situation there, and if we go back, was hostile in the years of Khomeini's takeover. Fortunately (or unfortunately), he was more intent on vengeance and attempting to conquer the Shiite holy cities than he was on persecuting non-Muslims too much.
I noted the overaggression of Israel, but the daily happenings in the Mideast and politics of many of the Mideastern Muslim states are enough to drive any Israeli to shitting their pants if they were to think about it too much. And things are only growing worse. The Islamic Revolution (which overthrew Iran's secular order and installed a jihad-focused regime), the embargo and following Iraq War (Iraq was the strongly dedicated anti-Islamist state in the region) and the Arab Spring (which have replaced stable secular regimes with Islamic extremists) have been monumentally disastrous for the Middle East and for the climate for Israel. The Jewish state has been around for 66 years. It has been created long ago. But what do you suggest? That it be dismantled? That Jews in the Mideast suffer the same fate as their Christian counterparts? No thanks. Sadly, we cannot simply change the history of things. We cannot erase the British/American and Spanish conquests of the native nations of the New World, just like we cannot erase the establishment of Israel by desperate and enraged Zionists. We must focus on the present.
I suggest they stop their colonialism. I'm not against the reality of Israel because doing so would be against my own value : ethnical cleansing and massacre, just like Israel has done and is doing. And the 4th military power in the world, armed with the nuclear bomb, doesn't fear anything from people who have no tanks nor airforce.
Given the political culture, I fear the colonialism won't stop. Sanctions would sober them and have them realize their mortality, but the US and AIPAC would never allow that to happen. Who's fearful of Palestinians? Rather, there's something to fear when you have countries like Egypt completely swagged out by the US who've held a precarious peace with Israel thanks to US money, a nation founded by jihad just a few countries to the east, and volatile Gulf oil sheikhs who don't know what to do with their infinite money besides supporting terrorists.
I agree with part of your statements, but saying that they fear about their neighbour is a bit disingenuous to me because the tension everybody feel towards them is largely due to their own policy. Considering the amount of unstability in the middle east they are not receiving any threat from Iraq or Syria, so it's safe to say that if they finally ended their desire to acquire palestinians territory and accepted to settle, things could desescalate from there and we could foresee a true peace in the next decade.
Btw I didn't respond but Khomeni declared a fatwa on protecting the jews in Iran, so they were far from wanting to persecute them.
On August 03 2014 04:10 Big J wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:50 WhiteDog wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:43 Big J wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:34 WhiteDog wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:27 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On August 02 2014 13:46 darthfoley wrote: A powerful piece written by a Holocaust survivor. It is quite short, and will take no long than a couple of minutes to finish. Highly recommend: Beautiful dream of Israel has become a nightmare
As a Jewish youngster growing up in Budapest, an infant survivor of the Nazi genocide, I was for years haunted by a question resounding in my brain with such force that sometimes my head would spin: “How was it possible? How could the world have let such horrors happen?”
It was a naïve question, that of a child. I know better now: such is reality. Whether in Vietnam or Rwanda or Syria, humanity stands by either complicitly or unconsciously or helplessly, as it always does. In Gaza today we find ways of justifying the bombing of hospitals, the annihilation of families at dinner, the killing of pre-adolescents playing soccer on a beach.
Wow really good piece. But you can see where Israel is coming from. Unfortunately, not being Muslim in the Mideast/N. Africa is an absolute nightmare. The only period of peace for minority religions was in the former secular republics, like Lebanon at various points, Iraq before 2003 and Syria before the civil war, and Egypt. Now they're being mercilessly slaughtered in Iraq and Syria. But even before that, that it was various forms of persecution, genocide by Ottomans, and deportation by old Arab and Persian monarchs, just in the 20th century alone.
So you can see in this region, especially in the last decade, why minority religions in Muslim countries are extremely fearful, and why the Jews in Israel are extremely committed to protecting themselves. The downside of this is it has even before Israel was founded developed a highly nationalistic, ethnocentric, and martial culture that gives less care than they should to damage to civilians in warfare and other matters. If it weren't for the fact that practically every nation but the US condemns them, it wouldn't surprise me if the Israelis were far more aggressive and destructive. It's certainly within their interests, as the one safe place in the Mideast for non-Muslims, to do so. But there must be a balance. Fears and jingoism cannot lead to unjustifiable degrees of violence, and they need to stop puffing their chests because the US backs them to the hilt. Perhaps they should humbly realize that if not for the US, they'd be getting slapped with sanctions like crazy. It would sober them up, to say the least. But, they hold all the cards in this scenario and largely control the conflict. They can do more to prevent infrastructural destruction and death.
There is a significant jewish community in Iran, and even a jewish deputee. Israel is not committed to protecting themselves, they are commited to taking the land of their eretz israel, and plenty of people gave facts to support this point - going from statement from israeli high officials/politicians, arguments from political individuals such as Jimmy Carter, or even the charter of the Likud party. It is not about security, it is about creating and expanding their jewish state.
Yeah, and exactly the same evidence can be given for Palestina (and other nations in that region) not seeking peace and friendly relations with israel, but that they want to extinct that nation and conquer their land.
Palestine ? They are negociating since years, they already accepted all demands from Kerry and it's Israel who refused in the last peace talks... Show me the facts.
Prefixing: I did not imply that they are not negotiating, nor do I say or believe anything like that. My point is solely that there are quotes and that there is evidence for both sides demanding the other parties land. And in the same spirit of arguing "they are negotiating, so they cannot mean to destroy Israel", you can say "Israel gave the land to them, so they cannot mean to reconquer it". Below the quotes that you are seeking:
Hamas official Halil Al-Hayya, Al-Hayat newspaper, November 11, 2010 "The lie of the Zionist Holocaust crumbles with countless holocausts committed by the Zionists in Beit Hanoun, al-Fakhoura school and other places in Palestine." "Palestine is Islamic, and not an Islamic emirate, from the river to the sea, that unites the Palestinians. Jews have no right in it, with the exception of those who lived on the land of Palestine before World War I."
Hamas leader Mahmoud Al-Zahhar, Future News TV, June 15, 2010, Source: MEMRI.org "We have liberated Gaza, but have we recognized Israel? Have we given up our lands occupied in 1948? We demand the liberation of the West Bank, and the establishment of a state in the West Bank and Gaza, with Jerusalem as its capital – but without recognizing [Israel]. This is the key – without recognizing the Israeli enemy on a single inch of land... "Our plan for this stage is to liberate any inch of Palestinian land, and to establish a state on it. Our ultimate plan is [to have] Palestine in its entirety. I say this loud and clear so that nobody will accuse me of employing political tactics. We will not recognize the Israeli enemy. "
Sheikh Dr. Ahmad Bahar, acting Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council, April 20, 2007; as reported by Palestinian Media Watch, April 23, 2007 "This is Islam, that was ahead of its time with regards to human rights in the treatment of prisoners, but our nation was tested by the cancerous lump, that is the Jews, in the heart of the Arab nation... Be certain that America is on its way to utter destruction, America is wallowing [in blood] today in Iraq and Afghanistan, America is defeated and Israel is defeated, and was defeated in Lebanon and Palestine... Make us victorious over the community of infidels... Allah, take the Jews and their allies, Allah, take the Americans and their allies... Allah, annihilate them completely and do not leave anyone of them."
You gave no fact that palestinians refuse peace, you only quoted things from Hamas. Hamas is not palestine, it does not even represent the majority of Gazans. Jimmy Carter quoted several pools showing gazans are, in majority, for peace and a settlement base on the two state solution. He talk about it somewhere in this conference at Brandeis university :
On August 02 2014 13:46 darthfoley wrote: A powerful piece written by a Holocaust survivor. It is quite short, and will take no long than a couple of minutes to finish. Highly recommend: Beautiful dream of Israel has become a nightmare
[quote]
Wow really good piece. But you can see where Israel is coming from. Unfortunately, not being Muslim in the Mideast/N. Africa is an absolute nightmare. The only period of peace for minority religions was in the former secular republics, like Lebanon at various points, Iraq before 2003 and Syria before the civil war, and Egypt. Now they're being mercilessly slaughtered in Iraq and Syria. But even before that, that it was various forms of persecution, genocide by Ottomans, and deportation by old Arab and Persian monarchs, just in the 20th century alone.
So you can see in this region, especially in the last decade, why minority religions in Muslim countries are extremely fearful, and why the Jews in Israel are extremely committed to protecting themselves. The downside of this is it has even before Israel was founded developed a highly nationalistic, ethnocentric, and martial culture that gives less care than they should to damage to civilians in warfare and other matters. If it weren't for the fact that practically every nation but the US condemns them, it wouldn't surprise me if the Israelis were far more aggressive and destructive. It's certainly within their interests, as the one safe place in the Mideast for non-Muslims, to do so. But there must be a balance. Fears and jingoism cannot lead to unjustifiable degrees of violence, and they need to stop puffing their chests because the US backs them to the hilt. Perhaps they should humbly realize that if not for the US, they'd be getting slapped with sanctions like crazy. It would sober them up, to say the least. But, they hold all the cards in this scenario and largely control the conflict. They can do more to prevent infrastructural destruction and death.
There is a significant jewish community in Iran, and even a jewish deputee. Israel is not committed to protecting themselves, they are commited to taking the land of their eretz israel, and plenty of people gave facts to support this point - going from statement from israeli high officials/politicians, arguments from political individuals such as Jimmy Carter, or even the charter of the Likud party. It is not about security, it is about creating and expanding their jewish state.
Yeah, and exactly the same evidence can be given for Palestina (and other nations in that region) not seeking peace and friendly relations with israel, but that they want to extinct that nation and conquer their land.
Palestine ? They are negociating since years, they already accepted all demands from Kerry and it's Israel who refused in the last peace talks... Show me the facts.
On August 03 2014 03:47 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:34 WhiteDog wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:27 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On August 02 2014 13:46 darthfoley wrote: A powerful piece written by a Holocaust survivor. It is quite short, and will take no long than a couple of minutes to finish. Highly recommend: Beautiful dream of Israel has become a nightmare
[quote]
Wow really good piece. But you can see where Israel is coming from. Unfortunately, not being Muslim in the Mideast/N. Africa is an absolute nightmare. The only period of peace for minority religions was in the former secular republics, like Lebanon at various points, Iraq before 2003 and Syria before the civil war, and Egypt. Now they're being mercilessly slaughtered in Iraq and Syria. But even before that, that it was various forms of persecution, genocide by Ottomans, and deportation by old Arab and Persian monarchs, just in the 20th century alone.
So you can see in this region, especially in the last decade, why minority religions in Muslim countries are extremely fearful, and why the Jews in Israel are extremely committed to protecting themselves. The downside of this is it has even before Israel was founded developed a highly nationalistic, ethnocentric, and martial culture that gives less care than they should to damage to civilians in warfare and other matters. If it weren't for the fact that practically every nation but the US condemns them, it wouldn't surprise me if the Israelis were far more aggressive and destructive. It's certainly within their interests, as the one safe place in the Mideast for non-Muslims, to do so. But there must be a balance. Fears and jingoism cannot lead to unjustifiable degrees of violence, and they need to stop puffing their chests because the US backs them to the hilt. Perhaps they should humbly realize that if not for the US, they'd be getting slapped with sanctions like crazy. It would sober them up, to say the least. But, they hold all the cards in this scenario and largely control the conflict. They can do more to prevent infrastructural destruction and death.
There is a significant jewish community in Iran, and even jewish deputee. Israel is not committed to protecting themselves, their commited to taking the land of their eretz israel, and plenty of people gave facts to support this point - going from statement from israeli high officials/politicians, arguments from political individuals such as Jimmy Carter, or even the charter of the Likud party. It is not about security, it is about creating a jewish state.
Most of the Jews departed in the 40s/50s when Muslim monarchs decided it was a good idea to get rid of them, so they fled to Israel and the US, in particular Iranian Jews. Most of the remainder of Iranian Christians and Jews fled (and smartly so) when Jihadlord Khomeini took over in Iran. There's a significantly lower number of Jews in Iran than there were in 1948. There were over 100k back then. Now, there's estimates of ~30,000 but I remember seeing something a year ago from census data the reported less than 10,000. It is still a precarious situation there, and if we go back, was hostile in the years of Khomeini's takeover. Fortunately (or unfortunately), he was more intent on vengeance and attempting to conquer the Shiite holy cities than he was on persecuting non-Muslims too much.
I noted the overaggression of Israel, but the daily happenings in the Mideast and politics of many of the Mideastern Muslim states are enough to drive any Israeli to shitting their pants if they were to think about it too much. And things are only growing worse. The Islamic Revolution (which overthrew Iran's secular order and installed a jihad-focused regime), the embargo and following Iraq War (Iraq was the strongly dedicated anti-Islamist state in the region) and the Arab Spring (which have replaced stable secular regimes with Islamic extremists) have been monumentally disastrous for the Middle East and for the climate for Israel. The Jewish state has been around for 66 years. It has been created long ago. But what do you suggest? That it be dismantled? That Jews in the Mideast suffer the same fate as their Christian counterparts? No thanks. Sadly, we cannot simply change the history of things. We cannot erase the British/American and Spanish conquests of the native nations of the New World, just like we cannot erase the establishment of Israel by desperate and enraged Zionists. We must focus on the present.
I suggest they stop their colonialism. I'm not against the reality of Israel because doing so would be against my own value : ethnical cleansing and massacre, just like Israel has done and is doing. And the 4th military power in the world, armed with the nuclear bomb, doesn't fear anything from people who have no tanks nor airforce.
Given the political culture, I fear the colonialism won't stop. Sanctions would sober them and have them realize their mortality, but the US and AIPAC would never allow that to happen. Who's fearful of Palestinians? Rather, there's something to fear when you have countries like Egypt completely swagged out by the US who've held a precarious peace with Israel thanks to US money, a nation founded by jihad just a few countries to the east, and volatile Gulf oil sheikhs who don't know what to do with their infinite money besides supporting terrorists.
I agree with part of your statements, but saying that they fear about their neighbour is a bit disingenuous to me because the tension everybody feel towards them is largely due to their own policy. Considering the amount of unstability in the middle east they are not receiving any threat from Iraq or Syria, so it's safe to say that if they finally ended their desire to acquire palestinians territory and accepted to settle, things could desescalate from there and we could foresee a true peace in the next decade.
Btw I didn't respond but Khomeni declared a fatwa on protecting the jews in Iran, so they were far from wanting to persecute them.
On August 03 2014 04:10 Big J wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:50 WhiteDog wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:43 Big J wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:34 WhiteDog wrote:
On August 03 2014 03:27 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On August 02 2014 13:46 darthfoley wrote: A powerful piece written by a Holocaust survivor. It is quite short, and will take no long than a couple of minutes to finish. Highly recommend: Beautiful dream of Israel has become a nightmare
[quote]
Wow really good piece. But you can see where Israel is coming from. Unfortunately, not being Muslim in the Mideast/N. Africa is an absolute nightmare. The only period of peace for minority religions was in the former secular republics, like Lebanon at various points, Iraq before 2003 and Syria before the civil war, and Egypt. Now they're being mercilessly slaughtered in Iraq and Syria. But even before that, that it was various forms of persecution, genocide by Ottomans, and deportation by old Arab and Persian monarchs, just in the 20th century alone.
So you can see in this region, especially in the last decade, why minority religions in Muslim countries are extremely fearful, and why the Jews in Israel are extremely committed to protecting themselves. The downside of this is it has even before Israel was founded developed a highly nationalistic, ethnocentric, and martial culture that gives less care than they should to damage to civilians in warfare and other matters. If it weren't for the fact that practically every nation but the US condemns them, it wouldn't surprise me if the Israelis were far more aggressive and destructive. It's certainly within their interests, as the one safe place in the Mideast for non-Muslims, to do so. But there must be a balance. Fears and jingoism cannot lead to unjustifiable degrees of violence, and they need to stop puffing their chests because the US backs them to the hilt. Perhaps they should humbly realize that if not for the US, they'd be getting slapped with sanctions like crazy. It would sober them up, to say the least. But, they hold all the cards in this scenario and largely control the conflict. They can do more to prevent infrastructural destruction and death.
There is a significant jewish community in Iran, and even a jewish deputee. Israel is not committed to protecting themselves, they are commited to taking the land of their eretz israel, and plenty of people gave facts to support this point - going from statement from israeli high officials/politicians, arguments from political individuals such as Jimmy Carter, or even the charter of the Likud party. It is not about security, it is about creating and expanding their jewish state.
Yeah, and exactly the same evidence can be given for Palestina (and other nations in that region) not seeking peace and friendly relations with israel, but that they want to extinct that nation and conquer their land.
Palestine ? They are negociating since years, they already accepted all demands from Kerry and it's Israel who refused in the last peace talks... Show me the facts.
Prefixing: I did not imply that they are not negotiating, nor do I say or believe anything like that. My point is solely that there are quotes and that there is evidence for both sides demanding the other parties land. And in the same spirit of arguing "they are negotiating, so they cannot mean to destroy Israel", you can say "Israel gave the land to them, so they cannot mean to reconquer it". Below the quotes that you are seeking:
Hamas official Halil Al-Hayya, Al-Hayat newspaper, November 11, 2010 "The lie of the Zionist Holocaust crumbles with countless holocausts committed by the Zionists in Beit Hanoun, al-Fakhoura school and other places in Palestine." "Palestine is Islamic, and not an Islamic emirate, from the river to the sea, that unites the Palestinians. Jews have no right in it, with the exception of those who lived on the land of Palestine before World War I."
Hamas leader Mahmoud Al-Zahhar, Future News TV, June 15, 2010, Source: MEMRI.org "We have liberated Gaza, but have we recognized Israel? Have we given up our lands occupied in 1948? We demand the liberation of the West Bank, and the establishment of a state in the West Bank and Gaza, with Jerusalem as its capital – but without recognizing [Israel]. This is the key – without recognizing the Israeli enemy on a single inch of land... "Our plan for this stage is to liberate any inch of Palestinian land, and to establish a state on it. Our ultimate plan is [to have] Palestine in its entirety. I say this loud and clear so that nobody will accuse me of employing political tactics. We will not recognize the Israeli enemy. "
Sheikh Dr. Ahmad Bahar, acting Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council, April 20, 2007; as reported by Palestinian Media Watch, April 23, 2007 "This is Islam, that was ahead of its time with regards to human rights in the treatment of prisoners, but our nation was tested by the cancerous lump, that is the Jews, in the heart of the Arab nation... Be certain that America is on its way to utter destruction, America is wallowing [in blood] today in Iraq and Afghanistan, America is defeated and Israel is defeated, and was defeated in Lebanon and Palestine... Make us victorious over the community of infidels... Allah, take the Jews and their allies, Allah, take the Americans and their allies... Allah, annihilate them completely and do not leave anyone of them."
You gave no fact that palestinians refuse peace, you only quoted things from Hamas. Hamas is not palestine, it does not even represent the majority of Gazans. Jimmy Carter quoted several pools showing gazans are, in majority, for peace and a settlement base on the two state solution. He talk about it somewhere in this conference at Brandeis university :
Then quote one person that represents the majority of Israel. And PROOF that he represents the majority of them. Not argue. PROOF!
And the Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council is not a Hamas function...
The Likud is the dominant party in Israel. Netanyahu has 85 % approval rate or something ridiculous like that.
That's an argument, not a proof.
All the proof you're searching for have been quoted already like three pages ago, I just quoted the likud party charter for you which clearly state that they refuse to acknowledge a Palestinian state.
EPT
