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On July 24 2014 18:43 Patate wrote:http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israel-student-union-sets-war-room-sell-gaza-massacre-facebookDaily reminder that Israel has some propaganda agents in social networks and forums. The people you are arguing with are probably part of those drones. Disregard them, and also don't forget that what Israel is doing right now in Gaza is about the same as the Warsaw Ghetto. Gaza right now is just a prison. Palestiniens cannot move freely anywhere. Economic sanctions destroy what little economy they have. Their choices are either to fight back with handmade ineffective weapons, or die in a state of silence and inhumanity. Anyone, in their situation, would be as desperate. Israel is such an hypocrite state, the only reason why the US and EU defend them is because they require capitals to function, and guess who has that capital? Banks.. Guess which religion most of these banks' owners are of? Yup.
That is a very fine line you are walking there. It gets very close to sentiments expressed 70 years ago about some ominous jew world power controlling stuff from the shadows. I don't even wantto google for actual numbers on "jew ownership of banks" or something like that. Because it does not matter one bit. The only reason israel can do whatever they want it the only world-police has a strategist interest in them being there. Sure, the voice of jewish people in the states is loud as well, but this is about political power and nothing more.
And the EU is not really defending them, they just don't criticize loud enough, probably because they know there is nothing they could do anyway while Murrica vetoes whatever they propose.
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can we theorycraft about how Islamist extremists are gaining ground in Syria/Iraq/Lebanon and Israel doesn't want to/is afraid to have to fight on two fronts in the future? (since Arab states never accepted the UN resolution)
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Actually it is easy!
First: Lift the siege and give the Palestinians their state!
Second: Make them borders and them treaties as open as possible, let everyone live where they want to, without displacing someone, etc. Build friendly relationships, help and stabilize each other. Treat the other not as an enemy, but as a good neighbor. Help.
There will still be rather hatefull people born of old actions and thinking. Talk with them. Show them the new way. Tell them they don't have to use violence anymore, because living together is far more better.
There will still be very violent people. Make sure to isolate them. And not with dehumanizing them, but with showing, that there are people among there folks who can live good under this new order. Just use violence on them if nothing else prevents it.
Quench the hate with little and huge tasks on a daily basis. Build friendly relations. Let there be international peacekeepers around.
And you know what? It is that easy! There will be violence and there will be bombings and that will be as hard to stomach as anything. It will be painfull. I could not imagine losing my two lovely children to a rocket or a suicide bombing. I think I would go insane. And everything should be done to prevent this and to help them who will suffer from those things. But, it is the only way. Help them, give everyone hope. In that way the violence will disappear on a slow but steady way.
What is with the states that give money and weapons to either side? Like other islamic states, that want to see Israel vanish. Sign treatiese, that there is an international ban on giving both sides weapons. Surveil that via UN.
Don't strike back anymore. Show them Palestinians that you are here as willing to live a life with them as with any neighbor.
What is with the ultras in Israel? Show them the pictures of lost lifes, of friends who died, of killed children from both sides and ask them if that should go on or if it should be a thing of the past. Help them with their pain and their grief.
It is easy. Let the pain of the past a thing of the past and ask yourself if you want a better life for everybody. You won't forget and you will still grief, but at least you will not produce anymore hate and grief.
I am out. There is nothing more to say. It is easy. Do you want to live in a world of peace or not?
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Well, Islamist gaining grounds its a concern on one hand. (Increased terrorist threat and replacing relativly stable secular governamnts). But on the hand other countries taken over by Islamist are losing most of its military capabilities. With lack of regular armies the Arab threat to Isreal is greatly diminshed. I would wager that Israelis closelyw atch the events but arent very concerned.
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On July 24 2014 19:40 Schmobutzen wrote:
Actually it is easy!
First: Lift the siege and give the Palestinians their state!
Second: Make them borders and them treaties as open as possible, let everyone live where they want to, without displacing someone, etc. Build friendly relationships, help and stabilize each other. Treat the other not as an enemy, but as a good neighbor. Help.
There will still be rather hatefull people born of old actions and thinking. Talk with them. Show them the new way. Tell them they don't have to use violence anymore, because living together is far more better.
There will still be very violent people. Make sure to isolate them. And not with dehumanizing them, but with showing, that there are people among there folks who can live good under this new order. Just use violence on them if nothing else prevents it.
Quench the hate with little and huge tasks on a daily basis. Build friendly relations. Let there be international peacekeepers around.
And you know what? It is that easy! There will be violence and there will be bombings and that will be as hard to stomach as anything. It will be painfull. I could not imagine losing my two lovely children to a rocket or a suicide bombing. I think I would go insane. And everything should be done to prevent this and to help them who will suffer from those things. But, it is the only way. Help them, give everyone hope. In that way the violence will disappear on a slow but steady way.
What is with the states that give money and weapons to either side? Like other islamic states, that want to see Israel vanish. Sign treatiese, that there is an international ban on giving both sides weapons. Surveil that via UN.
Don't strike back anymore. Show them Palestinians that you are here as willing to live a life with them as with any neighbor.
What is with the ultras in Israel? Show them the pictures of lost lifes, of friends who died, of killed children from both sides and ask them if that should go on or if it should be a thing of the past. Help them with their pain and their grief.
It is easy. Let the pain of the past a thing of the past and ask yourself if you want a better life for everybody. You won't forget and you will still grief, but at least you will not produce anymore hate and grief.
I am out. There is nothing more to say. It is easy. Do you want to live in a world of peace or not?
If you open boarders, then you will probably have a situation like before. Suicide bombers over and over again in Israeli cities. I like your idea, but the solution is not this easy.
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On July 24 2014 20:07 ThePhan2m wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 19:40 Schmobutzen wrote:
Actually it is easy!
First: Lift the siege and give the Palestinians their state!
Second: Make them borders and them treaties as open as possible, let everyone live where they want to, without displacing someone, etc. Build friendly relationships, help and stabilize each other. Treat the other not as an enemy, but as a good neighbor. Help.
There will still be rather hatefull people born of old actions and thinking. Talk with them. Show them the new way. Tell them they don't have to use violence anymore, because living together is far more better.
There will still be very violent people. Make sure to isolate them. And not with dehumanizing them, but with showing, that there are people among there folks who can live good under this new order. Just use violence on them if nothing else prevents it.
Quench the hate with little and huge tasks on a daily basis. Build friendly relations. Let there be international peacekeepers around.
And you know what? It is that easy! There will be violence and there will be bombings and that will be as hard to stomach as anything. It will be painfull. I could not imagine losing my two lovely children to a rocket or a suicide bombing. I think I would go insane. And everything should be done to prevent this and to help them who will suffer from those things. But, it is the only way. Help them, give everyone hope. In that way the violence will disappear on a slow but steady way.
What is with the states that give money and weapons to either side? Like other islamic states, that want to see Israel vanish. Sign treatiese, that there is an international ban on giving both sides weapons. Surveil that via UN.
Don't strike back anymore. Show them Palestinians that you are here as willing to live a life with them as with any neighbor.
What is with the ultras in Israel? Show them the pictures of lost lifes, of friends who died, of killed children from both sides and ask them if that should go on or if it should be a thing of the past. Help them with their pain and their grief.
It is easy. Let the pain of the past a thing of the past and ask yourself if you want a better life for everybody. You won't forget and you will still grief, but at least you will not produce anymore hate and grief.
I am out. There is nothing more to say. It is easy. Do you want to live in a world of peace or not? If you open boarders, then you will probably have a situation like before. Suicide bombers over and over again in Israeli cities. I like your idea, but the solution is not this easy.
Agreed.
IMHO:
The only real way to lasting peace is if the people in charge of educating children on both sides educate them about tolerance, forgiveness, cooperation and care for your fellow humans.
Then in 75 years or so there might be peace.
Until then, war will be popular because people hate each other and blame innocents for the crimes of their government.
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Disclaimer: This was found on Huffington post, a renowned leftist news website. Clearly its not an unbiased article, but Netanyahu's words do kind of speak for themselves:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/18/benjamin-netanyahu-palest_n_5598997.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu opposes the creation of a sovereign Palestinian state in the West Bank, he told reporters last week in remarks that largely have been overlooked.
“There cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan," he said July 11 at a press conference. But if Israel doesn't relinquish security control, Palestinians cannot establish a state. The alternative, then, would be a single state in which Palestinians are residents but not full citizens.
"That sentence, quite simply, spells the end to the notion of Netanyahu consenting to the establishment of a Palestinian state,” summed up Times of Israel editor David Horovitz, whom Ha'aretz described as a Netanyahu supporter.
“If we were to pull out of Judea and Samaria, like they tell us to, there’d be a possibility of thousands of tunnels," Netanyahu explained. "At present we have a problem with the territory called Gaza." Giving the West Bank back to Palestinians would "create another 20 Gazas," he said.
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In other news, this is the UN vote on whether or not to open an investigation into alleged human rights abuses in the conflict:
![[image loading]](https://38.media.tumblr.com/ecc4800b81c8bd7500e77f6c86951edd/tumblr_n96f2rykTP1qj171uo1_500.png)
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On July 24 2014 20:16 Jockmcplop wrote:In other news, this is the UN vote on whether or not to open an investigation into alleged human rights abuses in the conflict:
That voting pattern is so standard when it comes to any issues regarding Israel/Palestine in the UN. The entire world votes for a resolution. USA and Israel vote against it. USAs vote counts as a veto.
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Rofl, Abstention by France, UK, Germany, Italy, Japan and Austria. Because, whatever.
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Zurich15353 Posts
On July 24 2014 19:40 Schmobutzen wrote:
Actually it is easy!
First: Lift the siege and give the Palestinians their state!
[...]
It is easy. Let the pain of the past a thing of the past and ask yourself if you want a better life for everybody. You won't forget and you will still grief, but at least you will not produce anymore hate and grief.
I am out. There is nothing more to say. It is easy. Do you want to live in a world of peace or not?
Unfortunately it's really not, and this incredibly naive idea is basically ignorant of the reality on the ground. The turn the other cheek approach has worked exactly once as far as I can tell: When the British pacified North Ireland. Of course, the Middle East is a whole other animal compared to the ethnically, culturally, economically and religiously very close islanders.
It's not easy. Let's follow your idea. Israel happens to be a democracy, so first a new administration would have to be elected. Say that happens, and they actually have the guts to open borders, recognize a Palestine state, and go along all the other ideas you suggest.
As you say, there will be violence. What happens if that violence turns the public's opinion? It wouldn't have been the first time. What if the horrors of suicide bombers return to Israeli cities? It's seems incredibly optimistic to believe that Israeli public opinion would still favor turning the other cheek when cafes and buses get blown up again. So your new, peaceful administration gets voted out of office, or even cracks under public pressure before election time - and the hawks are back in power.
Yes, if you had a benevolent dictator who would for 20-30 years govern the entire region with a utilitarian set of policy, progress towards peace might be possible. Reality just doesn't work that way though.
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On July 24 2014 20:21 DrainX wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 20:16 Jockmcplop wrote:In other news, this is the UN vote on whether or not to open an investigation into alleged human rights abuses in the conflict: That voting pattern is so standard when it comes to any issues regarding Israel/Palestine in the UN. The entire world votes for a resolution. USA and Israel vote against it. USAs vote counts as a veto.
I'm not familiar with the policy regarding voting in these cases.
Does the USA's vote definitely count as a veto?
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On July 24 2014 20:22 Broetchenholer wrote:
Rofl, Abstention by France, UK, Germany, Italy, Japan and Austria. Because, whatever.
Because money, power, connections and diplomacy i would imagine.
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Zurich15353 Posts
On July 24 2014 20:22 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 20:21 DrainX wrote:On July 24 2014 20:16 Jockmcplop wrote:In other news, this is the UN vote on whether or not to open an investigation into alleged human rights abuses in the conflict: That voting pattern is so standard when it comes to any issues regarding Israel/Palestine in the UN. The entire world votes for a resolution. USA and Israel vote against it. USAs vote counts as a veto. I'm not familiar with the policy regarding voting in these cases. Does the USA's vote definitely count as a veto?
The UN human rights council is not the UN security council. I am not sure about the exact rule set of the former but it probably doesn't have 5 permanent veto powers like the security council.
Edit: Seems there is no veto power http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Human_Rights_Council
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On July 24 2014 20:21 DrainX wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 20:16 Jockmcplop wrote:In other news, this is the UN vote on whether or not to open an investigation into alleged human rights abuses in the conflict: That voting pattern is so standard when it comes to any issues regarding Israel/Palestine in the UN. The entire world votes for a resolution. USA and Israel vote against it. USAs vote counts as a veto.
Long shot (can't remember correctly what it was exactly) but i have to ask. There was a vote in 2012-2013 where nations voted for some kind of relief/support package for Gaza/Palestine towards schools(?), art(?), sports(?) etc, but it got rejected because USA voted no. Anyone remember this?
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On July 24 2014 20:25 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 20:22 Jockmcplop wrote:On July 24 2014 20:21 DrainX wrote:On July 24 2014 20:16 Jockmcplop wrote:In other news, this is the UN vote on whether or not to open an investigation into alleged human rights abuses in the conflict: That voting pattern is so standard when it comes to any issues regarding Israel/Palestine in the UN. The entire world votes for a resolution. USA and Israel vote against it. USAs vote counts as a veto. I'm not familiar with the policy regarding voting in these cases. Does the USA's vote definitely count as a veto? The UN human rights council is not the UN security council. I am not sure about the exact rule set of the former but it probably doesn't have 5 permanent veto powers like the security council.
I suspected as much. The wording of the tweet suggests the investigation will go ahead.
edited to delete an off hand comment that i don't really have the energy to argue about right now.
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On July 24 2014 20:16 Jockmcplop wrote:In other news, this is the UN vote on whether or not to open an investigation into alleged human rights abuses in the conflict:
Classic. At least people can still blindeye the atrocities and warcrimes, because obviously, there are none. Because the guilty player and his biggest ally said so.
I said it in the ukraine thread as well: the UN is a joke simply because of the veto-law.
edit: mornin, somebody turn down the sun a notch pls
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War is a very sensitive topic it can hurt if you take sides on either end. Wars can sometimes get started on the smallest things and it can escalate from there. Its mostly about land or religion then something or someone must of sparked it.
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But you overlooked one thing: let the Palestinians have their state. That is the main thing right now. Hamas is not that keen on evaporate Israel anymore. They have learned. Let them learn even more. If you give them most of what they want, in the moment it really is not that much and promise them and sign contracts that you will work together they will lose their violent basis.
Of course that has to be a concerted international effort. And there will be certain timings, as with the opening of the borders and such things. But you get the idea.
In the moment it is nearly only on Israel to beginn to end this thing once and for all.They are so much in initiative right now, it isn't even funny. They have the IDome, they don't have to use that much violence. Israel - you can do it. Show it the world, then the Palestinians have to follow. Then they will have the initiative. Show them how it is done!
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On July 24 2014 20:34 Schmobutzen wrote:
But you overlooked one thing: let the Palestinians have their state. That is the main thing right now. Hamas is not that keen on evaporate Israel anymore. They have learned. Let them learn even more. If you give them most of what they want, in the moment it really is not that much and promise them and sign contracts that you will work together they will lose their violent basis.
Of course that has to be a concerted international effort. And there will be certain timings, as with the opening of the borders and such things. But you get the idea.
In the moment it is nearly only on Israel to beginn to end this thing once and for all.They are so much in initiative right now, it isn't even funny. They have the IDome, they don't have to use that much violence. Israel - you can do it. Show it the world, then the Palestinians have to follow. Then they will have the initiative. Show them how it is done!
See this post I made earlier.
That will never, ever happen as long as Israel is in charge of the Palestinian's destiny.
At least in the West bank it won't
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EPT
