On July 24 2014 19:40 Schmobutzen wrote: Actually it is easy!
First: Lift the siege and give the Palestinians their state!
Second: Make them borders and them treaties as open as possible, let everyone live where they want to, without displacing someone, etc. Build friendly relationships, help and stabilize each other. Treat the other not as an enemy, but as a good neighbor.
The Israelian governvements job is to is to keep their citizens safe. Opening up borders while the Gaza strip is not de-radicalised and de-militarized would be ridiculous.
For gods sake please stop judging Israel as if it was some central European country that has lived in peace for 60 years. "Oh, no they have used weapon x!", "Oh boy, they have killed y". Israel has gotten their hands dirty occasionally, but basically everyone they have been fighting over the last half century has either tried to eradicate them completely or has used decades of terrorism just for the sake of forcing Israel's hand and shoving blame on them with no respect to human life at all.(The Hamas knows their rockets are accomplishing nothing besides forcing retaliation, they're consciously giving up their citizens lives to blame hate on Israel)
I love how we Europeans and Americans sit on our couches and are just like "Yeah, don't kill each other! You gotta start being friendly!" Yeah no shit call the UN
they did do some very stupid stuff with the illegal settlements while claiming to stop them, and their army sometimes might have gone over the top. They are not fully innocent either. But overall you are right of course. Most people just can't imagine how it feels like to live in a war zone
You re an european too... All you are doing is justifying massacre on the premises that anything else cannot give peace to these land. And why ? Because you are projecting your history on gazans and you believe them to be antisemite extremists. Meanwhile Israeli break international laws and you don t care. Why ?
Hamas and Fatah proposed a truce but Israeli are refusing the terms it seems :
In a move that could effectively turn Abbas into the main interlocutor for a Gaza truce, his umbrella Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) on Wednesday formally supported core conditions set by the Hamas-led fighters.
"The Gaza demands of stopping the aggression and lifting the blockade in all its forms are the demands of the entire Palestinian people and they represent the goal that the Palestinian leadership has dedicated all its power to achieve," senior PLO official Yasser Abed Rabbo said in Ramallah, the hub city in the Israeli-occupied West Bank where Abbas is based.
That is funny. I love how we Europeans and Americans sit on our couches and say "They just killed 400 civilians willfully and knowingly, but they are totally in the right to do that because 3 of their own people were kidnapped and killed."
The Israeli government wants that war. Since i follow the news avtively, which would be about 18 years, there has been this conflict. And since all this time, for how long did Israel not build settlements in land that was agreed upon to not be theirs? Probably only the short tim Rabin was president. And we know what happened to him Everytime a conflict with palestina is good for internal stability, one breaks loose. But of course they only defend themselves. This war is made by both parties. Both parties have to change their ways. But Israel thinks they have every right to annex land, imprison almost 2 million people in Gaza and kill 400 civilian arabs for 1 dead israeli. While Hamas still thinks they can achieve anything by running their people into the machineguns. But why can't the civilised, good-hearted and defensive israeli people do the first step if their government is so considerate and humane you want them to be?
For gods sake please stop judging Israel as if it was some central European country that has lived in peace for 60 years. "Oh, no they have used weapon x!", "Oh boy, they have killed y". Israel has gotten their hands dirty occasionally, but basically everyone they have been fighting over the last half century has either tried to eradicate them completely or has used decades of terrorism just for the sake of forcing Israel's hand and shoving blame on them with no respect to human life at all.
So basically you're saying, Israel is as bad as the terrorists and Islamist countries over there, did i gather that correctly? Just, that in your weird world, they have the right to act like that?
"Oh boy the have killed y" is btw the reason why not more people are dying, just fyi.
On July 24 2014 22:12 WhiteDog wrote: You re an european too... All you are doing is justifying massacre on the premises that anything else cannot give peace to these land. And why ? Because you are projecting your history on gazans and you believe them to be antisemite extremists. Meanwhile Israeli break international laws and you don t care. Why ?
Because Israel isn't massacring people. They're at war. They happen to be better armed than the Hamas. During the whole Palestine-Israeli conflict which is roughly going on for half a century twenty thousand people have died. (on both sides combined)(Source)
Even the six day war had more casualties. Given these numbers alone all the talk of genocide, or mass killings or massacres has no basis in reality.
Sometimes Israel has overstepped international lines, but given the context that Israel's opponents have thrown in everything including the kitchen sink, and the Jewish/Israeli history I think they're still acting in defence of their country .
For gods sake please stop judging Israel as if it was some central European country that has lived in peace for 60 years. "Oh, no they have used weapon x!", "Oh boy, they have killed y". Israel has gotten their hands dirty occasionally, but basically everyone they have been fighting over the last half century has either tried to eradicate them completely or has used decades of terrorism just for the sake of forcing Israel's hand and shoving blame on them with no respect to human life at all.
So basically you're saying, Israel is as bad as the terrorists and Islamist countries over there, did i gather that correctly? Just, that in your weird world, they have the right to act like that?
"Oh boy the have killed y" is btw the reason why not more people are dying, just fyi.
No. Israel isn't even remotely as bad as everybody else over there. When Israel starts strapping bombs on children we can have this talk. If any other country would have been attacked the way Israel was, they would have just invaded(with maybe tens of thousands of dead civilians) and they would have called it a day. But no, all they want is for the terror from Gaza to stop. I guess that's to much to ask for.
It's less than a war and more of a one sided revenge strike. It's rather telling that you decide to hold Isreal to lesser standards than would be applied to western countries. And honestly, I don't see the difference between suicide bombers and the indiscrimate weapon fire of Isreali artillery fire, other than the gross difference in risk to the perpetrator and the effectiveness of the chosen weapon.
No. Israel isn't even remotely as bad as everybody else over there. When Israel starts strapping bombs on children we can have this talk. If any other country would have been attacked the way Israel was, they would have just invaded(with maybe tens of thousands of dead civilians) and they would have called it a day. But no, all they want is for the terror from Gaza to stop. I guess that's to much to ask for.
Aaaah. I don't know....
Israel may not be "as bad" as the some of those countries, but thats a pretty fucking low standard to measure yourself against anyway.
They are definitely not innocent. They have bombed defenceless civilians, and killed children too.
Is tanks shelling UN-schools housing refugees now a regular method of self defense? (as happened today...) Even when the UN had given the exact location of the school to the IDF-command, and there was no threat coming at all from said building, as confirmed by various sources including the UN?
On July 25 2014 00:14 Nyxisto wrote: You don't see a qualitative difference between ('indiscriminate Israeli', whatever that means) artillery fire and suicide bombers?
I do. Suicide bombing in civilian areas is disgusting and horrible. Artillery fire into civilian areas is just as disgusting and horrible, it just do more dmg and you don't sacrafice your own people for it.
No. Israel isn't even remotely as bad as everybody else over there. When Israel starts strapping bombs on children we can have this talk. If any other country would have been attacked the way Israel was, they would have just invaded(with maybe tens of thousands of dead civilians) and they would have called it a day. But no, all they want is for the terror from Gaza to stop. I guess that's to much to ask for.
Israel may not be "as bad" as the some of those countries, but thats a pretty fucking low standard to measure yourself against anyway.
They are definitely not innocent. They have bombed defenceless civilians, and killed children too.
You are quoting the Young Turks, a youtube show with little journalistic integrity. I can't take that video seriously whatsoever, they more biased on Israel than even Al-Jazeera, which at least has some shreds of journalistic integrity. Furthermore admitting that the countries around them are a low standard of measurement, then not decrying that action and only decrying Israeli action against them is hypocrisy. I'm not at peace with everything Israel does, but it's hard for me to believe that anyone in the world can be at peace with anything the Gazan government does.
On July 25 2014 00:18 mahrgell wrote: Is tanks shelling UN-schools housing refugees now a regular method of self defense? (as happened today...) Even when the UN had given the exact location of the school to the IDF-command, and there was no threat coming at all from said building, as confirmed by various sources including the UN?
I don't normally double post, but it was found that Hamas had been storing rockets and building tunnels under the UN schools. Israel did what they normally do in door knocking and leaflets, but them shelling a UN school, despite the actual intentions is always going to look bad. So yes, there was a threat coming out of them.
On July 25 2014 00:18 mahrgell wrote: Is tanks shelling UN-schools housing refugees now a regular method of self defense? (as happened today...) Even when the UN had given the exact location of the school to the IDF-command, and there was no threat coming at all from said building, as confirmed by various sources including the UN?
I don't normally double post, but it was found that Hamas had been storing rockets and building tunnels under the UN schools. Israel did what they normally do in door knocking and leaflets, but them shelling a UN school, despite the actual intentions is always going to look bad. So yes, there was a threat coming out of them.
No it wasn't... Only because there were rockets stored (not fired) in one empty school building (out of >200), against which the UN had protested (and the rockets were removed from said school) does not justify the shooting of a refuge camp, that the IDF command was told about before by the UN, and that did indeed pose no threat.
e: but by your logic all 200 UN schools have to be considered primary targets now.... better avoid those.
No. Israel isn't even remotely as bad as everybody else over there. When Israel starts strapping bombs on children we can have this talk. If any other country would have been attacked the way Israel was, they would have just invaded(with maybe tens of thousands of dead civilians) and they would have called it a day. But no, all they want is for the terror from Gaza to stop. I guess that's to much to ask for.
Israel may not be "as bad" as the some of those countries, but thats a pretty fucking low standard to measure yourself against anyway.
They are definitely not innocent. They have bombed defenceless civilians, and killed children too.
You are quoting the Young Turks, a youtube show with little journalistic integrity. I can't take that video seriously whatsoever, they more biased on Israel than even Al-Jazeera, which at least has some shreds of journalistic integrity. Furthermore admitting that the countries around them are a low standard of measurement, then not decrying that action and only decrying Israeli action against them is hypocrisy. I'm not at peace with everything Israel does, but it's hard for me to believe that anyone in the world can be at peace with anything the Gazan government does.
1. Saying that TYT have no journalistic integrity, is almost as wrong as beliving anything from foxnews. 2. Even if you don't like or trust TYT, the interviews they link to, is still enough to tell that some seriously shady shit is going on over there. 3. I'm not saying i'm not against the other countries. But fact of the matter is that they are underdevolped civilizations, like North Korea, drowning in propaganda and insane ideologies. Most of the israelits all come from first would countries, and should be held to such standards.
4. No one is at peace with it. But killing civilians at random will not do anything to stop it. It's merely countrywide torture.
The young turk guy is fucking horrible. Yes Hamas deliberately wants Israel to kill civilians. Yes the Hamas makes Israel do it. Why? Because 15k rockets have hit Israel in the last decade and the Israelian population has to crawl into bunkers 5 times a day. They're forcing Israel to retaliate. And given the international response their strategy is working brilliantly.
Saying that Israel is making the decision here reminds me of Russia's defence in the Georgian war. "Hey, they shot first..(we literally forced them to do it, but whatever, they pushed the button!"
Sometimes you actually need to look at why someone pushes the button and not just who pushed the button first. Someone hosting such a show shouldn't be so purposefully ignorant.
Edit: Regarding the civil casualty ratio. Take a look at some other wars. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio The percentage ranges from 50-65% in most wars that people would consider being "ordinary". Given what we know about the Hamas strategy and how densely Gaza is populated 80%(and that's only in the current conflict) does not seem to indicate that systematic war crimes are going on. It's sad, but civilian numbers have always been extremely high. + Show Spoiler +
Colonel Richard Kemp, former Commander of British Forces in Afghanistan, spoke in 2011 about Israeli operations in the Gaza War. He said that a study published by the United Nations showed "that the ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in Gaza was by far the lowest in any asymmetric conflict in the history of warfare." He stated that this ratio was less than 1:1, and compared it favorably to the estimated ratios in NATO operations in Afghanistan (3:1), western campaigns in Iraq and Kosovo (believed to be 4:1), and the conflicts in Chechnya and Serbia (much higher than 4:1, according to anecdotal evidence). Kemp argued that the low ratio was achieved through unprecedented measures by the IDF to minimize civilian casualties, which included providing warnings to the population via telephone calls, radio broadcasts and leaflets, as well as granting pilots the discretion to abort a strike if they perceived too great a risk of civilian casualties. He also stated that the civilian casualties that did occur could be seen in light of Hamas' tactical use of Gazan civilians "as human shields, to hide behind, to stand between Israeli forces and their own fighters" and strategic use of them for exploitation of their deaths in the media
On July 24 2014 22:12 WhiteDog wrote: You re an european too... All you are doing is justifying massacre on the premises that anything else cannot give peace to these land. And why ? Because you are projecting your history on gazans and you believe them to be antisemite extremists. Meanwhile Israeli break international laws and you don t care. Why ?
Because Israel isn't massacring people. They're at war. They happen to be better armed than the Hamas. During the whole Palestine-Israeli conflict which is roughly going on for half a century twenty thousand people have died. (on both sides combined)(Source)
Even the six day war had more casualties. Given these numbers alone all the talk of genocide, or mass killings or massacres has no basis in reality.
Sometimes Israel has overstepped international lines, but given the context that Israel's opponents have thrown in everything including the kitchen sink, and the Jewish/Israeli history I think they're still acting in defence of their country .
For gods sake please stop judging Israel as if it was some central European country that has lived in peace for 60 years. "Oh, no they have used weapon x!", "Oh boy, they have killed y". Israel has gotten their hands dirty occasionally, but basically everyone they have been fighting over the last half century has either tried to eradicate them completely or has used decades of terrorism just for the sake of forcing Israel's hand and shoving blame on them with no respect to human life at all.
So basically you're saying, Israel is as bad as the terrorists and Islamist countries over there, did i gather that correctly? Just, that in your weird world, they have the right to act like that?
"Oh boy the have killed y" is btw the reason why not more people are dying, just fyi.
No. Israel isn't even remotely as bad as everybody else over there. When Israel starts strapping bombs on children we can have this talk. If any other country would have been attacked the way Israel was, they would have just invaded(with maybe tens of thousands of dead civilians) and they would have called it a day. But no, all they want is for the terror from Gaza to stop. I guess that's to much to ask for.
3/4 civilian casualties according to the UN, it is a massacre. Israel is not better at war, it is just helped by all the greatest nation, and has all the weaponry it needs.
On July 25 2014 00:14 Nyxisto wrote: You don't see a qualitative difference between ('indiscriminate Israeli', whatever that means) artillery fire and suicide bombers?
Hamas forbid any suicide bombers like six years ago. You don't really know what you are talking and the basis of all your assumption is that, again, Palestinians and Hamas wants to kill all Israelis. This is wrong, they want to live freely in their own state.
On July 25 2014 00:46 Nyxisto wrote: The young turk guy is fucking horrible. Yes Hamas deliberately wants Israel to kill civilians. Yes the Hamas makes Israel do it. Why? Because 15k rockets have hit Israel in the last decade and the Israelian population has to crawl into bunkers 5 times a day. They're forcing Israel to retaliate. And given the international response their strategy is working brilliantly.
Saying that Israel is making the decision here reminds me of Russia's defence in the Georgian war. "Hey, they shot first..(we literally forced them to do it, but whatever, they pushed the button!"
Sometimes you actually need to look at why someone pushes the button and not just who pushed the button first. Someone hosting such a show shouldn't be so purposefully ignorant.
Edit: Regarding the civil casualty ratio. Take a look at some other wars. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio The percentage ranges from 50-65% in most wars that people would consider being "ordinary". Given what we know about the Hamas strategy and how densely Gaza is populated 80% does not seem to indicate that systematic war crimes are going on. It's sad, but civilian numbers have always been extremely high.
So the average is 50 %, Israel is at 3/4... What are you talking about ? 75 % is far higher than 50 % and in MOST wars there are crime and massacre. Now Israel, with a higher civilian death toil and blatant breaking of international laws is trying to "save civilians" and don't do any massacre lol.
By the way, the thing you quote are based on previous conflict between Israeli & Gaza, not the actual conflict, and the statistics you are using come from the IDF (they consider for exemple that all police men are de facto non civilian).
Journalist and commentator Evelyn Gordon writes in Commentary that the civilian casualty ratio in Operation Cast Lead was 39 percent (2:3), using however only the preliminary Israeli estimates, but that 56 or 74 percent were civilians according to B'Tselem's figures, depending on whether 248 Hamas policemen are considered combatants or civilians; and 65 or 83 percent according to the figures of the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights.
That's all communication. From 39 % civilians to 83% depending on the estimation. Not to mention Alan Dershowitz...
On July 25 2014 00:49 WhiteDog wrote: So the average is 50 %, Israel is at 3/4... What are you talking about ? 75 % is far higher than 50 % and in MOST wars there are crime and massacre. Now Israel, with a higher civilian death toil and blatant breaking of international laws is trying to "save civilians" and don't do any massacre lol.
By the way, the thing you quote are based on previous conflict between Israeli & Gaza, not the actual conflict.
Yeah, I'm aware of that. But you simply can't just scream "80!!!" and act like that is some kind of ultimate evidence. As I said. Given how asymmetrical the conflict is and that sacrificing civilians is the Hamas MO, and that overall the number of civilians is not exceedingly high(below 50% if we take the whole conflict and not just recent events), as sad as it is, you simply can't draw the conclusion that Israel is using excessive force. At least not compared to other conflicts in history.
Pointing at bombed schools and hospitals and showing pictures of homeless kids is sensational. It is simply a reality of war. There is nothing unique or especially cruel about this conflict.
On July 25 2014 00:49 WhiteDog wrote: So the average is 50 %, Israel is at 3/4... What are you talking about ? 75 % is far higher than 50 % and in MOST wars there are crime and massacre. Now Israel, with a higher civilian death toil and blatant breaking of international laws is trying to "save civilians" and don't do any massacre lol.
By the way, the thing you quote are based on previous conflict between Israeli & Gaza, not the actual conflict.
Yeah, I'm aware of that. But you simply can't just scream "80!!!" and act like that is some kind of ultimate evidence. As I said. Given how asymmetrical the conflict is and that sacrificing civilians is the Hamas MO, and that overall the number of civilians is not exceedingly high(below 50% if we take the whole conflict and not just recent events), as sad as it is, you simply can't draw the conclusion that Israel is using excessive force. At least not compared to other conflicts in history.
Fact are here, 75% according to the UN, that is massacre. Killing kids (20 % of the casualties !) is a massacre. If it was the opposite, with Israeli having a 3/4 civilian death ratio, I would have manifested my support for Israel. Would you have defended Hamas ?
A massacre is a specific incident in which a military force, mob, or other group kill many people—and the perpetrating party is perceived as in total control of force while the victimized party is perceived as helpless or innocent.
No to mention the conflict has been going on forever. Is it too anti israeli for me to simply state that this is not a good way to resolve this conflict ? And that now international organisations needs to take a stand and force both Hamas and Israel to respect to international laws and make peace ?
Pointing at bombed schools and hospitals and showing pictures of homeless kids is sensational. It is simply a reality of war. There is nothing unique or especially cruel about this conflict.
It is not true at all. It is an assymetric conflict that has been going on more than most actual conflict, with blatant breaking of international law by one country and no or almost no condamnation by nations that pretend to respect those laws and enforce them (occupation of gaza, settlements, are all condemn by international court).
I'll just leave it at that. Most modern asymmetrical wars have produced causality rates of 75% or more. And overall Israel is below 50%. If you think these wars are by nature immoral, I can understand your point. If you say that Israel is using more force than other parties have done in modern history, then you're wrong.
Regarding the part about people "being locked up in Gaza" by Israel. Also Egypt has not opened up the border, for the exact same reason Israel keeps the borders closed. They don't want radical forces streaming into their country. The fact that even Egypt isn't willing to open the borders should be proof enough that Netanyahu isn't so off about this.
EPT
Everytime a conflict with palestina is good for internal stability, one breaks loose. But of course they only defend themselves. This war is made by both parties. Both parties have to change their ways. But Israel thinks they have every right to annex land, imprison almost 2 million people in Gaza and kill 400 civilian arabs for 1 dead israeli. While Hamas still thinks they can achieve anything by running their people into the machineguns. But why can't the civilised, good-hearted and defensive israeli people do the first step if their government is so considerate and humane you want them to be?
