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On July 25 2014 02:58 xDaunt wrote:Any sane Western government is going to support Israel. Regardless of whether you think Israel has wronged Palestine, the bottom line is that Israel is a fundamentally Western country than can be a reliable partner in trade and other affairs. You can't say that for Palestine.
Unlike with countries like Saudi Arabia though the US and other western countries don't need Israel as much as Israel needs them. This means if Israel doesn't at least cut back on the amount of war crimes they commit it might no longer be worth it for the west to continue to support Israel even if you get a viable trade partner.
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On July 25 2014 03:10 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 02:58 xDaunt wrote:Any sane Western government is going to support Israel. Regardless of whether you think Israel has wronged Palestine, the bottom line is that Israel is a fundamentally Western country than can be a reliable partner in trade and other affairs. You can't say that for Palestine. Unlike with countries like Saudi Arabia though the US and other western countries don't need Israel as much as Israel needs them. This means if Israel doesn't at least cut back on the amount of war crimes they commit it might no longer be worth it for the west to continue to support Israel even if you get a viable trade partner.
I've always held the view that Israel is a terrible Ally for the US.
What do we need from them, vs. how much do we give them. And to what extent do we put our soldiers in harm's way because of their irresponsible actions.
We (the US) have vetoed coutless UN security council resolutions that were agreed upon by all other members simply to defend Israel. Yet what do they do for us? Do they send troops to help us fight "the war on terror?"
Sure you can say we trade with them. But their exports are easily obtained from other countries.
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Israel is fine on their own, they have nuclear weapons and thanks to America (how stupid are you please, you relaly believed they will stop work on their nuclear bomb Oo) a free missile defence system to protect the nuclear weapons.
To the Topic: It sucks for Israel that Palestine people are not like the native Americans and just accept that their land was stolen and they are prisoners in their own country, right? Why cant Israel not have the same luxury like USA has...dammit.
Sorry but I am not Palestine, I am not Israel so I cant really understand it. What I see is that Israel acts like dicks in Gaza. That is all I see and know. Why they do it? But the government acts like a cunt when it comes to Gaza. But thats OK, America acts like a cunt too.
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On July 25 2014 03:15 tadL wrote:
To the Topic: It sucks for Isreal that Palstine people are not like the native americans and just accept that their land was stolen and they are prisoners in their own country, right?
are you saying that with schadenfreude?
cause i think it sucks for palastina more, most israelis live a good life, how many palastins can say that ?
actually its quite clear, if you are a sane politician, palastina should accept their land stolen a LONG TIME AGO
they could actually live a good life now. but sadly it seems there are no politicans who work FOR their people in palastina.
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On July 25 2014 03:08 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 02:58 xDaunt wrote:Any sane Western government is going to support Israel. Regardless of whether you think Israel has wronged Palestine, the bottom line is that Israel is a fundamentally Western country than can be a reliable partner in trade and other affairs. You can't say that for Palestine. Obviously not. Want me to explain why that is, or do you just play dumb?
hey buddy why dont you stop calling people dumb? and stop acting like you are the only one who understands whats going on gaza and can "explain stuff".
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On July 25 2014 03:10 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 02:58 xDaunt wrote:Any sane Western government is going to support Israel. Regardless of whether you think Israel has wronged Palestine, the bottom line is that Israel is a fundamentally Western country than can be a reliable partner in trade and other affairs. You can't say that for Palestine. Unlike with countries like Saudi Arabia though the US and other western countries don't need Israel as much as Israel needs them. This means if Israel doesn't at least cut back on the amount of war crimes they commit it might no longer be worth it for the west to continue to support Israel even if you get a viable trade partner.
Let's just make this easy: If you're a western country, who is a potentially more reliable ally? Palestine or Israel? When you boil it down to this, it becomes pretty easy to see why countries continuously side with Israel. Make whatever excuses that you want for why Palestine is perceived as being unreliable, but the unmitigated truth is that Palestine is less reliable and there is considerable risk of an end-result, bad outcome in backing them over Israel.
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On July 25 2014 03:19 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 03:10 Adreme wrote:On July 25 2014 02:58 xDaunt wrote:Any sane Western government is going to support Israel. Regardless of whether you think Israel has wronged Palestine, the bottom line is that Israel is a fundamentally Western country than can be a reliable partner in trade and other affairs. You can't say that for Palestine. Unlike with countries like Saudi Arabia though the US and other western countries don't need Israel as much as Israel needs them. This means if Israel doesn't at least cut back on the amount of war crimes they commit it might no longer be worth it for the west to continue to support Israel even if you get a viable trade partner. Let's just make this easy: If you're a western country, who is a potentially more reliable ally? Palestine or Israel? When you boil it down to this, it becomes pretty easy to see why countries continuously side with Israel. Make whatever excuses that you want for why Palestine is perceived as being unreliable, but the unmitigated truth is that Palestine is less reliable and there is considerable risk of an end-result, bad outcome in backing them over Israel.
I think the problem is Israel behavior fuel extremism, and that's the kind of extremism the US is, rightfully, fighting against.
Would be way better to adopt a fair stance and force peace upon both parties.
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On July 25 2014 03:18 mdb wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 03:08 m4ini wrote:On July 25 2014 02:58 xDaunt wrote:Any sane Western government is going to support Israel. Regardless of whether you think Israel has wronged Palestine, the bottom line is that Israel is a fundamentally Western country than can be a reliable partner in trade and other affairs. You can't say that for Palestine. Obviously not. Want me to explain why that is, or do you just play dumb? hey buddy why dont you stop calling people dumb? and stop acting like you are the only one who understands whats going on gaza and can "explain stuff".
If i feel the need to call someone dumb, i will do so. Luckily, i didn't. I asked him if he plays dumb. Wanna stop calling me buddy and stop backseatmoderating?
Not to mention that it's ridiculous to say "well Israel is a good trading partner, Palestine isn't - well no shit, since they can't rebuild their infrastructure thanks to prohibition of building materials and control over their exports. And i'm pretty sure xDaunt knows that.
Even though i don't entirely disagree when he says "israel is more reliable" - for now. But honestly, the reason why israel gets the support that it does is not because of the trading. It's to get a foothold over there.
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On July 25 2014 03:21 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 03:19 xDaunt wrote:On July 25 2014 03:10 Adreme wrote:On July 25 2014 02:58 xDaunt wrote:Any sane Western government is going to support Israel. Regardless of whether you think Israel has wronged Palestine, the bottom line is that Israel is a fundamentally Western country than can be a reliable partner in trade and other affairs. You can't say that for Palestine. Unlike with countries like Saudi Arabia though the US and other western countries don't need Israel as much as Israel needs them. This means if Israel doesn't at least cut back on the amount of war crimes they commit it might no longer be worth it for the west to continue to support Israel even if you get a viable trade partner. Let's just make this easy: If you're a western country, who is a potentially more reliable ally? Palestine or Israel? When you boil it down to this, it becomes pretty easy to see why countries continuously side with Israel. Make whatever excuses that you want for why Palestine is perceived as being unreliable, but the unmitigated truth is that Palestine is less reliable and there is considerable risk of an end-result, bad outcome in backing them over Israel. I think the problem is Israel behavior fuel extremism, and that's the kind of extremism the US is, rightfully, fighting against. Would be way better to adopt a fair stance and force peace upon both parties.
Of course Israel has fueled Palestinian extremism. Israelis acted like twats vis a vis the Palestinians for generations, treating them like second class citizens. It doesn't change the fact that Palestine is not a reliable partner for anything remotely productive. That's why Arab countries generally do little more than offer lip service to the Palestinian plight.
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Well the United States have proven to not be a reliable partner too. Your best friend is tomorrow the world greatest enemy...
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On July 25 2014 03:24 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 03:21 WhiteDog wrote:On July 25 2014 03:19 xDaunt wrote:On July 25 2014 03:10 Adreme wrote:On July 25 2014 02:58 xDaunt wrote:Any sane Western government is going to support Israel. Regardless of whether you think Israel has wronged Palestine, the bottom line is that Israel is a fundamentally Western country than can be a reliable partner in trade and other affairs. You can't say that for Palestine. Unlike with countries like Saudi Arabia though the US and other western countries don't need Israel as much as Israel needs them. This means if Israel doesn't at least cut back on the amount of war crimes they commit it might no longer be worth it for the west to continue to support Israel even if you get a viable trade partner. Let's just make this easy: If you're a western country, who is a potentially more reliable ally? Palestine or Israel? When you boil it down to this, it becomes pretty easy to see why countries continuously side with Israel. Make whatever excuses that you want for why Palestine is perceived as being unreliable, but the unmitigated truth is that Palestine is less reliable and there is considerable risk of an end-result, bad outcome in backing them over Israel. I think the problem is Israel behavior fuel extremism, and that's the kind of extremism the US is, rightfully, fighting against. Would be way better to adopt a fair stance and force peace upon both parties. Of course Israel has fueled Palestinian extremism. Israelis acted like twats vis a vis the Palestinians for generations, treating them like second class citizens. It doesn't change the fact that Palestine is not a reliable partner for anything remotely productive. That's why Arab countries generally do little more than offer lip service to the Palestinian plight.
At the end of the day the only important thing for the middle east is to have as much peace as possible in order to insure the oil keeps flowing from a purely self interest perspective. Whether or not the west partners with Israel or Palestine is largely irrelevant to that goal and as long as neither serves as a detriment to that goal I cant imagine it matters who you support. As a trade partner neither one is large enough or relevant enough to warrant support to the degree that they get it but the reason they get it isn't due to geopolitical interests its more due to the politics at home forcing that support.
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On July 25 2014 03:24 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 03:21 WhiteDog wrote:On July 25 2014 03:19 xDaunt wrote:On July 25 2014 03:10 Adreme wrote:On July 25 2014 02:58 xDaunt wrote:Any sane Western government is going to support Israel. Regardless of whether you think Israel has wronged Palestine, the bottom line is that Israel is a fundamentally Western country than can be a reliable partner in trade and other affairs. You can't say that for Palestine. Unlike with countries like Saudi Arabia though the US and other western countries don't need Israel as much as Israel needs them. This means if Israel doesn't at least cut back on the amount of war crimes they commit it might no longer be worth it for the west to continue to support Israel even if you get a viable trade partner. Let's just make this easy: If you're a western country, who is a potentially more reliable ally? Palestine or Israel? When you boil it down to this, it becomes pretty easy to see why countries continuously side with Israel. Make whatever excuses that you want for why Palestine is perceived as being unreliable, but the unmitigated truth is that Palestine is less reliable and there is considerable risk of an end-result, bad outcome in backing them over Israel. I think the problem is Israel behavior fuel extremism, and that's the kind of extremism the US is, rightfully, fighting against. Would be way better to adopt a fair stance and force peace upon both parties. Of course Israel has fueled Palestinian extremism. Israelis acted like twats vis a vis the Palestinians for generations, treating them like second class citizens. It doesn't change the fact that Palestine is not a reliable partner for anything remotely productive. That's why Arab countries generally do little more than offer lip service to the Palestinian plight.
The best way to improve that situation is probably not as much found in bombing Hamas and their tunnels, civilians be damned. The best way to build a reliable partner in Palestine is to avoid giving Hamas an excuse to spread their rabid hate of Israel and strenghten the moderate political side in Fatah by offering trade-, land- and other deals they will be able to sell as a win. Bombings and massive civilian casualties, regardless of the objective, is going to make Hamas' arguments, about Israel being unable to work with Palestine and should be wiped off the map, resonate in an ever broadening part of palestinian society.
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On July 25 2014 03:41 radiatoren wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 03:24 xDaunt wrote:On July 25 2014 03:21 WhiteDog wrote:On July 25 2014 03:19 xDaunt wrote:On July 25 2014 03:10 Adreme wrote:On July 25 2014 02:58 xDaunt wrote:Any sane Western government is going to support Israel. Regardless of whether you think Israel has wronged Palestine, the bottom line is that Israel is a fundamentally Western country than can be a reliable partner in trade and other affairs. You can't say that for Palestine. Unlike with countries like Saudi Arabia though the US and other western countries don't need Israel as much as Israel needs them. This means if Israel doesn't at least cut back on the amount of war crimes they commit it might no longer be worth it for the west to continue to support Israel even if you get a viable trade partner. Let's just make this easy: If you're a western country, who is a potentially more reliable ally? Palestine or Israel? When you boil it down to this, it becomes pretty easy to see why countries continuously side with Israel. Make whatever excuses that you want for why Palestine is perceived as being unreliable, but the unmitigated truth is that Palestine is less reliable and there is considerable risk of an end-result, bad outcome in backing them over Israel. I think the problem is Israel behavior fuel extremism, and that's the kind of extremism the US is, rightfully, fighting against. Would be way better to adopt a fair stance and force peace upon both parties. Of course Israel has fueled Palestinian extremism. Israelis acted like twats vis a vis the Palestinians for generations, treating them like second class citizens. It doesn't change the fact that Palestine is not a reliable partner for anything remotely productive. That's why Arab countries generally do little more than offer lip service to the Palestinian plight. The best way to improve that situation is probably not as much found in bombing Hamas and their tunnels, civilians be damned. The best way to build a reliable partner in Palestine is to avoid giving Hamas an excuse to spread their rabid hate of Israel and strenghten the moderate political side in Fatah by offering trade-, land- and other deals they will be able to sell as a win. Bombings and massive civilian casualties, regardless of the objective, is going to make Hamas' arguments, about Israel being unable to work with Palestine and should be wiped off the map, resonate in an ever broadening part of palestinian society.
And how exactly can Israel credibly do this? I think that ship sailed generations ago. Some third party country would have to intervene to make that work. Specifically, that country would have to occupy Gaza and the West Bank while the reconstruction took place to wipe out all existing terrorist organizations and prevent them from coming back. I just don't see that happening. I don't even think that it is possible.
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There are a few problems.
1) Neither side actually wants peace at the leadership level. Palestinians want all their land back and are not making any concessions at all on that front. Meanwhile Israel continues to build settlements on land that is internationally regarded as Palestinian land by the UN and so far has offered zero explanation as to why it does so. So it's clear that while the world is busy with the fighting in Gaza and the missing airplanes etc. they are just going to keep taking whatever they can in the West Bank.
2) There are actual terrorists in Gaza doing the things that Israel says they're doing (some of them, and to an extent). Yes they use SOME civilian areas to launch rockets from, and it's very hard to tell the difference. Rockets are blindly being fired at Israel indescriminiately and that's wrong.
3) BUT - Israel is taking this as an opportunity to systematically destroy infrastructure and collectively punish all the people of Gaza. They consider everyone part of Hamas as a terrorist, regardless of the fact that Hamas has a nonmilitary political party associated with it that is involved in many aspects of society (hospitals, schools, etc.). So any apartment building that has 1 Hamas member living in it becomes a valid target (hence the 80% civilian casualty figure we're hearing). They ignore the fact that Gaza is the most densely populated piece of land on earth and that the people fleeing their bombing often have nowhere to run to but into the path of other bombs.
4) While Israel has a right to defend itself against such attacks, it's hard to believe that a country with one of the most developped and sophisticated militaries in the world (and 100% backed by the US, the strongest military on earth) and with easily one of the best covert ops capabilities (they train some of OUR troops....) can't do so without the insane amount of colateral damage that they're inflicting on gaza. 70-80% civilian casualties is an embarassment for any civilized country. These are military personnel that routinely assassinate high priority targets in foreign countries using forged British passports etc.. Israel reminds the media on a daily basis of how much "restraint" they are showing with their bombing, but it's hard to imagine less restraint being shown. At what point does 100% civilian casualties get renamed "genocide?"
5) There is no incentive for Israel to ever reach peace, and as long as the terrorist side of Hamas is firing rockets into Israel, they have a perfectly valid excuse NOT to go to the negotiating table - "we don't negotiate with terrorists." Period. Israel is CLEARLY winning, the territory under their control is expanding... as long as this keeps going, they keep benefiting.
6) What happens when the rockets stop? Well, history shows that regardless of the rocket attacks, Israel has continued to 1) build settlements in the west bank on palestinian land 2) deny the people of Gaza the resources they need via the naval and land blockades. So we have a Catch 22 - where Israel claims that the military offensive is in self defense during times of war, but in times of peace it's the blockade that is limiting Palestinians access to weaponry. What Israel has outlined is a case in which regardless of whether or not rockets are being fired at Israel it must maintain this brutal blockade which collectively punishes all the residents of Gaza.
This is a very difficult situation that will not easily be solved, but one has to realize that the status quo clearly favors Israel and that even in times of peace the Palestinians are living an unimaginably horrible existence as second class citizens in the West Bank and as prisoners of war in Gaza.
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On July 25 2014 03:44 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 03:41 radiatoren wrote:On July 25 2014 03:24 xDaunt wrote:On July 25 2014 03:21 WhiteDog wrote:On July 25 2014 03:19 xDaunt wrote:On July 25 2014 03:10 Adreme wrote:On July 25 2014 02:58 xDaunt wrote:Any sane Western government is going to support Israel. Regardless of whether you think Israel has wronged Palestine, the bottom line is that Israel is a fundamentally Western country than can be a reliable partner in trade and other affairs. You can't say that for Palestine. Unlike with countries like Saudi Arabia though the US and other western countries don't need Israel as much as Israel needs them. This means if Israel doesn't at least cut back on the amount of war crimes they commit it might no longer be worth it for the west to continue to support Israel even if you get a viable trade partner. Let's just make this easy: If you're a western country, who is a potentially more reliable ally? Palestine or Israel? When you boil it down to this, it becomes pretty easy to see why countries continuously side with Israel. Make whatever excuses that you want for why Palestine is perceived as being unreliable, but the unmitigated truth is that Palestine is less reliable and there is considerable risk of an end-result, bad outcome in backing them over Israel. I think the problem is Israel behavior fuel extremism, and that's the kind of extremism the US is, rightfully, fighting against. Would be way better to adopt a fair stance and force peace upon both parties. Of course Israel has fueled Palestinian extremism. Israelis acted like twats vis a vis the Palestinians for generations, treating them like second class citizens. It doesn't change the fact that Palestine is not a reliable partner for anything remotely productive. That's why Arab countries generally do little more than offer lip service to the Palestinian plight. The best way to improve that situation is probably not as much found in bombing Hamas and their tunnels, civilians be damned. The best way to build a reliable partner in Palestine is to avoid giving Hamas an excuse to spread their rabid hate of Israel and strenghten the moderate political side in Fatah by offering trade-, land- and other deals they will be able to sell as a win. Bombings and massive civilian casualties, regardless of the objective, is going to make Hamas' arguments, about Israel being unable to work with Palestine and should be wiped off the map, resonate in an ever broadening part of palestinian society. And how exactly can Israel credibly do this? I think that ship sailed generations ago. Some third party country would have to intervene to make that work. Specifically, that country would have to occupy Gaza and the West Bank while the reconstruction took place to wipe out all existing terrorist organizations and prevent them from coming back. I just don't see that happening. I don't even think that it is possible.
Palestine is not a well-functioning country by any means, but there has been fighting going on between Fatahs army and Hamas before they brokered a peace-deal. As many countries in the region realize, it is needless to fight these terrorists. It is better to break them up politically, get a peacedeal with the most moderate fractions and incorporate some of their ideas into the government program. Yes, the leftout extremists will be trying to fight them, but as soon as you can remove their moderate public support, you have cut off a significant part of their ability to act. If Isreal really wanted to fight extremists they need to be more supportive in building up a resistance towards the extremists among the palestinian population and ever increasing settlements encroaching the palestinian territory and upholding a prison-like bordercontrol is probably among the best ways to avoid that.
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concerning gaza-Egypt border: I think Al Sisi (who maintains the blockade on Gaza) and his predecessors have a very good read on the situation and they consider Hamas as a menace. Don't be fooled: arabs have killed way more many arabs in one year than israeli have in half a century. + israeli arabs have more rights and freedom then in any middle eastern country (it is mindboggling that people like Erdogan accuse israel of genocide). Blockades can have the potential to change the policies of a regime (Iran, South Africa), and that is why both Israel & Egypt blokkade Gaza.
concerning civilian casualities: civilians always die in wars- that's a sad true - especially in urban warfare. Look up the link by Nyxisto, in previous wars 20th-21th century wars (Kosovo, Serbia, Tchechen wars, iraq, afganistan ,etc.), 75% civilian deaths is the average. and don't forget 50% of the population is under 14 years old, which explains the amount of death children.
concerning crimes: I am surprised that the UN hasn't condemned the Hamas for war crimes.
- indiscriminately targeting the civilians with rockets
- kidnapping and killing hostages
- using human shields
- firing rockets from schools & hospitals
+many others. I guess they wouldn't stand a chance against the technologically advanced IDF if they wouldn't use all these morally dubious tactics.
The biggest losers of this war are of course the Palestinians in Gaza: the Hamas, which took over in 2006, doesn't care about healthcare & schools; they only dig tunnels and build rockets for the next war. In the mean time the UN &EU finance their schools, hospitals etc. I would be so angry at the Hamas as a Palestinian. In eight years they have done nothing good for their people and used them as human shields.
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On July 25 2014 03:45 DinoMight wrote:
5) There is no incentive for Israel to ever reach peace, and as long as the terrorist side of Hamas is firing rockets into Israel, they have a perfectly valid excuse NOT to go to the negotiating table - "we don't negotiate with terrorists." Period. Israel is CLEARLY winning, the territory under their control is expanding... as long as this keeps going, they keep benefiting.
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There are a democratic country. If the Israeli people criticize their government, the government changes or gets fired next election. Remember how the Israeli suffered many causalities in south Lebanon against the Hizbollah, and the Israeli government was forced to retreat because the public opinion turned against them.
Furthermore, many Israeli are against further colonization on the Westbank (leftist & arab parties). The Hamas is not helping their cause.
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On July 25 2014 04:04 AA.spoon wrote:
concerning gaza-Egypt border: I think Al Sisi (who maintains the blockade on Gaza) and his predecessors have a very good read on the situation and they consider Hamas as a menace. Don't be fooled: arabs have killed way more many arabs in one year than israeli have in half a century. + israeli arabs have more rights and freedom then in any middle eastern country (it is mindboggling that people like Erdogan accuse israel of genocide). Blockades can have the potential to change the policies of a regime (Iran, South Africa), and that is why both Israel & Egypt blokkade Gaza.
concerning civilian casualities: civilians always die in wars- that's a sad true - especially in urban warfare. Look up the link by Nyxisto, in previous wars 20th-21th century wars (Kosovo, Serbia, Tchechen wars, iraq, afganistan ,etc.), 75% civilian deaths is the average. and don't forget 50% of the population is under 14 years old, which explains the amount of death children.
concerning crimes: I am surprised that the UN hasn't condemned the Hamas for war crimes.
- indiscriminately targeting the civilians with rockets
- kidnapping and killing hostages
- using human shields
- firing rockets from schools & hospitals
+many others. I guess they wouldn't stand a chance against the technologically advanced IDF if they wouldn't use all these morally dubious tactics.
The biggest losers of this war are of course the Palestinians in Gaza: the Hamas, which took over in 2006, doesn't care about healthcare & schools; they only dig tunnels and build rockets for the next war. In the mean time the UN &EU finance their schools, hospitals etc. I would be so angry at the Hamas as a Palestinian. In eight years they have done nothing good for their people and used them as human shields.
http://www.hrw.org/en/node/89574/section/2
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On July 25 2014 04:08 AA.spoon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 03:45 DinoMight wrote:
5) There is no incentive for Israel to ever reach peace, and as long as the terrorist side of Hamas is firing rockets into Israel, they have a perfectly valid excuse NOT to go to the negotiating table - "we don't negotiate with terrorists." Period. Israel is CLEARLY winning, the territory under their control is expanding... as long as this keeps going, they keep benefiting.
. There are a democratic country. If the Israeli people criticize their government, the government changes or gets fired next election. Remember how the Israeli suffered many causalities in south Lebanon against the Hizbollah, and the Israeli government was forced to retreat because the public opinion turned against them. Furthermore, many Israeli are against further colonization on the Westbank (leftist & arab parties). The Hamas is not helping their cause.
What does Hamas have to do with colonization of the West Bank? The settlements in the West Bank are purely a land grab in violation of international law and UN recognized borders.
How does Hamas' actions justify this?
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On July 25 2014 04:04 AA.spoon wrote:
concerning civilian casualities: civilians always die in wars- that's a sad true - especially in urban warfare. Look up the link by Nyxisto, in previous wars 20th-21th century wars (Kosovo, Serbia, Tchechen wars, iraq, afganistan ,etc.), 75% civilian deaths is the average. and don't forget 50% of the population is under 14 years old, which explains the amount of death children.
No. Civilians do not always die in wars. If you look at Kosovo/Serbia there were many war crimes accusations AND convictions. That was genocide. The conflicts you have named are some of the bloodiest and most disgusting conflicts in human history.
And this is not a war. Wars are fought between governments, between armies, between two sides. This is a handful of terrorists launching rockets into Israel (which is wrong), and the Israeli government reacting by collectively bombing the Palestinian people hoping they'll also get the bad guys in the process.
The biggest problem with what's going on Gaza is that Israel views it as a war. The civilians dying in this conflict are in no way complicit. They do not wish to be a part of this conflict. And they have nowhere to go to avoid the shelling.
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EPT
