Merkel stills supports Israel, when it comes to foreign affairs, our government is a joke...
Any sane Western government is going to support Israel. Regardless of whether you think Israel has wronged Palestine, the bottom line is that Israel is a fundamentally Western country than can be a reliable partner in trade and other affairs. You can't say that for Palestine.
Unlike with countries like Saudi Arabia though the US and other western countries don't need Israel as much as Israel needs them. This means if Israel doesn't at least cut back on the amount of war crimes they commit it might no longer be worth it for the west to continue to support Israel even if you get a viable trade partner.
I've always held the view that Israel is a terrible Ally for the US.
What do we need from them, vs. how much do we give them. And to what extent do we put our soldiers in harm's way because of their irresponsible actions.
We (the US) have vetoed coutless UN security council resolutions that were agreed upon by all other members simply to defend Israel. Yet what do they do for us? Do they send troops to help us fight "the war on terror?"
Sure you can say we trade with them. But their exports are easily obtained from other countries.
Israel somehow got into enough powerful positions that it seems to own your government.
Sometimes I think it's just human nature to keep killing each other in shitty ways.
Merkel stills supports Israel, when it comes to foreign affairs, our government is a joke...
Any sane Western government is going to support Israel. Regardless of whether you think Israel has wronged Palestine, the bottom line is that Israel is a fundamentally Western country than can be a reliable partner in trade and other affairs. You can't say that for Palestine.
Unlike with countries like Saudi Arabia though the US and other western countries don't need Israel as much as Israel needs them. This means if Israel doesn't at least cut back on the amount of war crimes they commit it might no longer be worth it for the west to continue to support Israel even if you get a viable trade partner.
I've always held the view that Israel is a terrible Ally for the US.
What do we need from them, vs. how much do we give them. And to what extent do we put our soldiers in harm's way because of their irresponsible actions.
We (the US) have vetoed coutless UN security council resolutions that were agreed upon by all other members simply to defend Israel. Yet what do they do for us? Do they send troops to help us fight "the war on terror?"
Sure you can say we trade with them. But their exports are easily obtained from other countries.
Israel somehow got into enough powerful positions that it seems to own your government.
Sometimes I think it's just human nature to keep killing each other in shitty ways.
One of the strongest lobbying groups in the country is actually for Israel (a foreign country). It's amazing how much power they have over politicians here.
Btw, there is a good video about what we debate a few pages ago (the idea that Israel's army is not trying to prevent civilians deaths). It's the part 3 of a conference from N. Finkelsteinn for the U.N.
Sometimes i think they should just get over with the expulsion of the Palestinians, similar to what happened to the expulsion of ~ 12 million Germans from Central and Eastern Europe after World War II.
They can't live together and Israel is slowly taking more and more land anyway until eventually they seized everything and the expulsion is complete. Its just a matter of decades instead of a time period of ~ 5 years.
Rather do it quickly and (relatively) painless instead of lingering in this transition period forever. It's not like anybody will stop Israel. The US won't, Germany and everyone else in Europe wont.. and anybody else that would try gets invaded by the US.
Since it's happening either way, just get over with it quickly.
There is so much bad blood between those people that the idea of preventing death of civiliens almost seems like a joke...Its kinda like if you live there you are pretty much forced to take a side. Im guessing both parties feel like that there is no civilians in this war.
On July 25 2014 04:04 AA.spoon wrote: concerning civilian casualities: civilians always die in wars- that's a sad true - especially in urban warfare. Look up the link by Nyxisto, in previous wars 20th-21th century wars (Kosovo, Serbia, Tchechen wars, iraq, afganistan ,etc.), 75% civilian deaths is the average. and don't forget 50% of the population is under 14 years old, which explains the amount of death children.
No. Civilians do not always die in wars. If you look at Kosovo/Serbia there were many war crimes accusations AND convictions. That was genocide. The conflicts you have named are some of the bloodiest and most disgusting conflicts in human history.
And this is not a war. Wars are fought between governments, between armies, between two sides. This is a handful of terrorists launching rockets into Israel (which is wrong), and the Israeli government reacting by collectively bombing the Palestinian people hoping they'll also get the bad guys in the process.
The biggest problem with what's going on Gaza is that Israel views it as a war. The civilians dying in this conflict are in no way complicit. They do not wish to be a part of this conflict. And they have nowhere to go to avoid the shelling.
I am not talking about the civil wars between Yugoslavian countries, but of US&EU intervention there. NATO in Yugoslavia and Afghanistan, and US & allies in Iraq have similar percentages of civilian killed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio
On July 25 2014 04:04 AA.spoon wrote: concerning civilian casualities: civilians always die in wars- that's a sad true - especially in urban warfare. Look up the link by Nyxisto, in previous wars 20th-21th century wars (Kosovo, Serbia, Tchechen wars, iraq, afganistan ,etc.), 75% civilian deaths is the average. and don't forget 50% of the population is under 14 years old, which explains the amount of death children.
No. Civilians do not always die in wars. If you look at Kosovo/Serbia there were many war crimes accusations AND convictions. That was genocide. The conflicts you have named are some of the bloodiest and most disgusting conflicts in human history.
And this is not a war. Wars are fought between governments, between armies, between two sides. This is a handful of terrorists launching rockets into Israel (which is wrong), and the Israeli government reacting by collectively bombing the Palestinian people hoping they'll also get the bad guys in the process.
The biggest problem with what's going on Gaza is that Israel views it as a war. The civilians dying in this conflict are in no way complicit. They do not wish to be a part of this conflict. And they have nowhere to go to avoid the shelling.
I am not talking about the civil wars between Yugoslavian countries, but of US&EU intervention there. NATO in Yugoslavia and Afghanistan, and US & allies in Iraq have similar percentages of civilian killed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio
Man, listen to yourself. There is no justification for avoidable civilian casualties. The fact that someone was murdered yesterday in the Bronx is not justification to murder someone else. These civilian casualties are avoidable! Israel is straight up bombing APARTMENT BUILDINGS where a single Hamas affiliated person resides.
Israel has among the best covert ops capabilities in the world. If they wanted to assassinate 20 high value targets quietly and without collateral damage, they could.
They are making zero effort to avoid civilian casualties.
On July 25 2014 05:43 TheRealArtemis wrote: There is so much bad blood between those people that the idea of preventing death of civiliens almost seems like a joke...Its kinda like if you live there you are pretty much forced to take a side. Im guessing both parties feel like that there is no civilians in this war.
"There are no civilians in this war because you elected your government" was used by Osama bin Laden to justify his attacks against civilian targets in the World Trade Center on 9/11.
It's a flawed argument that neither side should be using, especially a country like Israel which is regarded as a "role model democracy" in the Middle East.
"There are no civilians in this war because you elected your government" was used by Osama bin Laden to justify his attacks against civilian targets in the World Trade Center on 9/11.
Oh don't worry, there's folks here who still use that argument. Basically any palestinensian ("kinda") is hamas.
Btw, about the first post, the chronology of the facts is kinda small, and can appear biased toward Israel. Late may, two women were killed by the Israeli army (under camera http://www.btselem.org/releases/20140520_bitunya_killings_on_nakba_day ) and the UN asked for investigations on the subject. Then, the fifth of july, Israel advanced 1500 new settlements (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/israel-advances-new-settlements). Those two fact are relevant to maybe explain the kidnapping of the three kids, it's not just a crime that comes from nowhere might I say.
Also, between the 12 June and 30th (date when the kids were supposedly found) four young Palestinians are killed un israeli bullets, and 600 Palestinians, with 11 deputee, are arrested during a vast operation in the West Bank. The media almost always put that chronology aside, sadly.
I heard that the European, Israeli & American media/governments (If there really is any difference) are working on a new definition of genocide:
Cannot be perpetrated by Europeans, Israelis or Americans & can only be termed self-defence. Must be followed by huge Goebbels-like media campaign enforcing our right to do ethnic cleansing at will.
User was warned for this post
Edit: I have added an example of what I mean with my statement in form of a youtube clip.
cnn news stream: (comment from IDF personnel) IDF has observed attacks coming from gaza to within gaza. they're investigating how the UN school/shelter was hit and they suspect it could have been done by hamas. two possibility 1) mistake from IDF, 2) hamas attack. IDF says they work closely with UN to make sure their operations are unharmed from IDF's operations. hamas has used ambulance as transporters, used UN buildings, hospitals, and mosques to attack from and store equipment.
On July 25 2014 06:50 WhiteDog wrote: Late may, two women were killed by the Israeli army (under camera http://www.btselem.org/releases/20140520_bitunya_killings_on_nakba_day ) and the UN asked for investigations on the subject. Then, the fifth of july, Israel advanced 1500 new settlements (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/israel-advances-new-settlements). Those two fact are relevant to maybe explain the kidnapping of the three kids, it's not just a crime that comes from nowhere might I say.
Also, between the 12 June and 30th (date when the kids were supposedly found) four young Palestinians are killed un israeli bullets, and 600 Palestinians, with 11 deputee, are arrested during a vast operation in the West Bank. The media almost always put that chronology aside, sadly.
You can add the 3 teenagers sniped off (two died) because of a clash that took place hours earlier to that list, took place around may. Posted it before, but just to show that these are not isolated incidents. I can only imagine what stuff like this does to the mindset of a people.
On July 25 2014 07:06 jinorazi wrote: just to add,
cnn news stream: (comment from IDF personnel) IDF has observed attacks coming from gaza to within gaza. they're investigating how the UN school/shelter was hit and they suspect it could have been done by hamas. two possibility 1) mistake from IDF, 2) hamas attack. IDF says they work closely with UN to make sure their operations are unharmed from IDF's operations. hamas has used ambulance as transporters, used UN buildings, hospitals, and mosques to attack from and store equipment.
The UN itself told the media that it contacted Israel and asked for some time to evacuate civilians and even gave them the exact coordinates of the shelter that was hit, but the request was denied. This is according to several media sources, CNN being one of them.
The other UN shelters where weapons were found were vacant and did not have civilians in them. This is also from CNN (which is quite pro-israel).
Some Hamas rockets do fall in Palestine, that's true. But Israel brings this up every single time a civilian target is hit despite the fact that it only happens a very small percentage of the time.
Whereas anytime they shell civilians, the claim they are "investigating" and of course no investigation is ever done.
On July 25 2014 06:50 WhiteDog wrote: Late may, two women were killed by the Israeli army (under camera http://www.btselem.org/releases/20140520_bitunya_killings_on_nakba_day ) and the UN asked for investigations on the subject. Then, the fifth of july, Israel advanced 1500 new settlements (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/israel-advances-new-settlements). Those two fact are relevant to maybe explain the kidnapping of the three kids, it's not just a crime that comes from nowhere might I say.
Also, between the 12 June and 30th (date when the kids were supposedly found) four young Palestinians are killed un israeli bullets, and 600 Palestinians, with 11 deputee, are arrested during a vast operation in the West Bank. The media almost always put that chronology aside, sadly.
You can add the 3 teenagers sniped off (two died) because of a clash that took place hours earlier to that list, took place around may. Posted it before, but just to show that these are not isolated incidents. I can only imagine what stuff like this does to the mindset of a people.
When I think about mindset I think about that boy who had his cousin kidnapped and murdered and then was beaten within inches of his life by Israeli police.
Then I think about how many Palestinian people have the same (or similar) stories, but just weren't lucky enough to be American and have it caught on film.
Israel talks a lot about what if we were them, I find myself wondering sometimes what if we were the Palestinians...
On July 25 2014 07:14 DinoMight wrote: The other UN shelters where weapons were found were vacant and did not have civilians in them. This is also from CNN (which is quite pro-israel).
Even if the schools were vacant, it's still pretty questionable that UN schools are used for rocket storage. The fact that the UN had to evacuate UN workers from said places and that neighbouring facilities hosted 1.5k IDP's means that they were not completely abandoned.
It's completely inhumane. Even if there's rockets launched from the school who the hell bombs a school with kids in it in order to prevent missile 'attacks' that barely ever harm anyone.
On July 25 2014 07:14 DinoMight wrote: The other UN shelters where weapons were found were vacant and did not have civilians in them. This is also from CNN (which is quite pro-israel).
Even if the schools were vacant, it's still pretty questionable that UN schools are used for rocket storage. The fact that the UN had to evacuate UN workers from said places and that neighbouring facilities hosted 1.5k IDP's means that they were not completely abandoned.
You're so open to israeli propaganda. They bombed a UN facility, in any other part of the world you would be mad, but since it's Israel it's okay and you doubt the UN.
I just linked you a source from a UN website. Are you at least reading what I post before you reply? I didn't doubt anybody. I just don't think it's okay that the UN is so lax about having rockets stored in their official facilities.
On July 25 2014 08:43 Nyxisto wrote: I just linked you a source from a UN website. Are you at least reading what I post before you reply? I didn't doubt anybody. I just don't think it's okay that the UN is so lax about having rockets stored in their official facilities.
You linked a source about empty school, putting doubt on the UN credibility in this matter and on the specific school that has been bombarded. What's the point in talking about empty school ? It is propaganda and you're part of it. It is exactly like the previous post about "possible rockets from gaza in gaza" putting the doubt that, of course, Palestinians bombed the UN themselves.
Merkel stills supports Israel, when it comes to foreign affairs, our government is a joke...
Any sane Western government is going to support Israel. Regardless of whether you think Israel has wronged Palestine, the bottom line is that Israel is a fundamentally Western country than can be a reliable partner in trade and other affairs. You can't say that for Palestine.
Obviously not. Want me to explain why that is, or do you just play dumb?
hey buddy why dont you stop calling people dumb? and stop acting like you are the only one who understands whats going on gaza and can "explain stuff".
If i feel the need to call someone dumb, i will do so. Luckily, i didn't. I asked him if he plays dumb. Wanna stop calling me buddy and stop backseatmoderating?
Not to mention that it's ridiculous to say "well Israel is a good trading partner, Palestine isn't - well no shit, since they can't rebuild their infrastructure thanks to prohibition of building materials and control over their exports. And i'm pretty sure xDaunt knows that.
Even though i don't entirely disagree when he says "israel is more reliable" - for now. But honestly, the reason why israel gets the support that it does is not because of the trading. It's to get a foothold over there.
EPT
