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On July 25 2014 13:15 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 12:03 Agathon wrote:On July 25 2014 10:42 Nyxisto wrote:On July 25 2014 10:32 Agathon wrote:On July 25 2014 09:25 Nyxisto wrote:On July 25 2014 08:57 WhiteDog wrote:On July 25 2014 08:50 Nyxisto wrote:On July 25 2014 08:45 WhiteDog wrote:On July 25 2014 08:43 Nyxisto wrote:
I just linked you a source from a UN website. Are you at least reading what I post before you reply? I didn't doubt anybody. I just don't think it's okay that the UN is so lax about having rockets stored in their official facilities. You linked a source about empty school, putting doubt on the UN credibility in this matter and on the specific school that has been bombarded. What's the point in talking about empty school ? It is propaganda and you're part of it. The school was not empty, as UN staff had to be evacuated, and the neighbouring schools hosted 1.5k refugees. The UN needs to keep their shit together, they simply can not have weapons stored in close proximity to so many people. They did,they said they will control all their facilities, and they controlled the one that was bombarded by Israeli (before the attack). They now found two school with rockets, released a statement about it and evacuated the school. What should they do ? The only thing you are doing is, something that would be unacceptable in any other conflict, putting doubt on the UN. It is something that the media, and people, only do about Israel : when the UN, or any other international agency, release a paper or the result of investigation on Israel, it is always okay to criticize it. No, if Israeli forces deliberately attack a school and there were no military combatants or weapons in the building then it's illegitimate and needs to be condemned. What I don't do is sitting around in my room, mouth drooling, just waiting for the newest sensational headline what the IDF has done wrong now. All asymmetrical modern wars look like the conflict between Palestine and Israel, and a lot of them look even worse. And although the Hamas is not carrying people literally around in front of them, leading members of the Hamas have repeatedly stated that civilians are not supposed to leave the bombed areas. It is also a fact that they have fired rockets out of areas that contained civilians and civil infrastructure. The fact that rockets have been found in UN buildings is yet another example of how the Hamas operates. "No, if Israeli forces deliberately attack a school and there were no military combatants or weapons in the building then it's illegitimate and needs to be condemned" Do you mean that there are any legitimate reasons to kill children? It's a polemical question. Short answer, Yes, if they are unavoidable and not deliberately targeted. International law reflects that too. Proportionality is a key word here. This is what Moreno-Ocampo, Chief prosecutor at the International Criminal Court had to say regarding allegations of war crimes committed by the US in Iraq Under international humanitarian law and the Rome Statute, the death of civilians during an armed conflict, no matter how grave and regrettable, does not in itself constitute a war crime. International humanitarian law and the Rome Statute permit belligerents to carry out proportionate attacks against military objectives, even when it is known that some civilian deaths or injuries will occur. A crime occurs if there is an intentional attack directed against civilians (principle of distinction) (Article 8(2)(b)(i)) or an attack is launched on a military objective in the knowledge that the incidental civilian injuries would be clearly excessive in relation to the anticipated military advantage
Article 8(2)(b)(iv) criminalizes:
Intentionally launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects or widespread, long-term and severe damage to the natural environment which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated;
"Yes, if they are unavoidable and not deliberately targeted." [b]But they are deliberately targeted. Israel knows that there are moslty civilians in the places they bomb. They deliberately target the place anyway hoping that it will also kill fighters and destroy weapons.[b] About the unavoidable, not shooting is a decent way to avoid...killing. isnt it more likely "Israel knows that there are militants in the places they bomb. They target the place anyway hoping that it will minimize civilian casualty"? im sure there are extremists in the israeli side (like in any side) doing what you're thinking, but i dearly hope they're the minority and not likely to be in power. to say israel wants to kill civilians in a way they can get away with, well, thats a leap of faith i guess.
They cannot hit their targets (with airstrikes) without injuring/killing civilians most of the time. They still do so because those in charge believe it is an acceptable loss in order to kill those that fired the rockets and the rockets themselves. It doesn't matter if the rockets actually did damage to any part of Israel...
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On July 25 2014 13:41 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 13:15 jinorazi wrote:On July 25 2014 12:03 Agathon wrote:On July 25 2014 10:42 Nyxisto wrote:On July 25 2014 10:32 Agathon wrote:On July 25 2014 09:25 Nyxisto wrote:On July 25 2014 08:57 WhiteDog wrote:On July 25 2014 08:50 Nyxisto wrote:On July 25 2014 08:45 WhiteDog wrote:On July 25 2014 08:43 Nyxisto wrote:
I just linked you a source from a UN website. Are you at least reading what I post before you reply? I didn't doubt anybody. I just don't think it's okay that the UN is so lax about having rockets stored in their official facilities. You linked a source about empty school, putting doubt on the UN credibility in this matter and on the specific school that has been bombarded. What's the point in talking about empty school ? It is propaganda and you're part of it. The school was not empty, as UN staff had to be evacuated, and the neighbouring schools hosted 1.5k refugees. The UN needs to keep their shit together, they simply can not have weapons stored in close proximity to so many people. They did,they said they will control all their facilities, and they controlled the one that was bombarded by Israeli (before the attack). They now found two school with rockets, released a statement about it and evacuated the school. What should they do ? The only thing you are doing is, something that would be unacceptable in any other conflict, putting doubt on the UN. It is something that the media, and people, only do about Israel : when the UN, or any other international agency, release a paper or the result of investigation on Israel, it is always okay to criticize it. No, if Israeli forces deliberately attack a school and there were no military combatants or weapons in the building then it's illegitimate and needs to be condemned. What I don't do is sitting around in my room, mouth drooling, just waiting for the newest sensational headline what the IDF has done wrong now. All asymmetrical modern wars look like the conflict between Palestine and Israel, and a lot of them look even worse. And although the Hamas is not carrying people literally around in front of them, leading members of the Hamas have repeatedly stated that civilians are not supposed to leave the bombed areas. It is also a fact that they have fired rockets out of areas that contained civilians and civil infrastructure. The fact that rockets have been found in UN buildings is yet another example of how the Hamas operates. "No, if Israeli forces deliberately attack a school and there were no military combatants or weapons in the building then it's illegitimate and needs to be condemned" Do you mean that there are any legitimate reasons to kill children? It's a polemical question. Short answer, Yes, if they are unavoidable and not deliberately targeted. International law reflects that too. Proportionality is a key word here. This is what Moreno-Ocampo, Chief prosecutor at the International Criminal Court had to say regarding allegations of war crimes committed by the US in Iraq Under international humanitarian law and the Rome Statute, the death of civilians during an armed conflict, no matter how grave and regrettable, does not in itself constitute a war crime. International humanitarian law and the Rome Statute permit belligerents to carry out proportionate attacks against military objectives, even when it is known that some civilian deaths or injuries will occur. A crime occurs if there is an intentional attack directed against civilians (principle of distinction) (Article 8(2)(b)(i)) or an attack is launched on a military objective in the knowledge that the incidental civilian injuries would be clearly excessive in relation to the anticipated military advantage
Article 8(2)(b)(iv) criminalizes:
Intentionally launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects or widespread, long-term and severe damage to the natural environment which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated;
"Yes, if they are unavoidable and not deliberately targeted." [b]But they are deliberately targeted. Israel knows that there are moslty civilians in the places they bomb. They deliberately target the place anyway hoping that it will also kill fighters and destroy weapons.[b] About the unavoidable, not shooting is a decent way to avoid...killing. isnt it more likely "Israel knows that there are militants in the places they bomb. They target the place anyway hoping that it will minimize civilian casualty"? im sure there are extremists in the israeli side (like in any side) doing what you're thinking, but i dearly hope they're the minority and not likely to be in power. to say israel wants to kill civilians in a way they can get away with, well, thats a leap of faith i guess. They cannot hit their targets (with airstrikes) without injuring/killing civilians most of the time. They still do so because those in charge believe it is an acceptable loss in order to kill those that fired the rockets and the rockets themselves. It doesn't matter if the rockets actually did damage to any part of Israel...
why would they march if they werent going to attack? (i'd imagine they knew civilian death is unavoidable)
there are many in between the extremist and not and choices are made by those people (from infantry, commanders and politicians). maybe there is a better way to solve this and i'm sure many, many have thought about it including those that has some influence in the decisions. battle decisions that could have avoided innocent death or political decisions that cant solve small and big conflicts. however, like many conflicts before, this is one of them and many innocent people will die, more in some scenarios more than others. this will be the focal point in many debates to come criticizing and defending the actions from both sides.
i'm just saying, i hope many of those people that make those decisions do care about the civilians. i'd like to believe israel is trying to minimize innocent deaths in gaza. as for why didnt they just stealthily assassinate all or key people of hamas or just defend and not attack until they have a 99% sure way to have no innocent death or political resolve, i dont know, if everyone did that in our history, wouldnt that be great?
propaganda or not, israel seems to care including its soldier reserves refusing to join if/when they're called. (saw an interview). "investigating" or not, they seem to play the political game like the rest of the west. but i've only heard bad things about hamas(propaganda or not), i admit i dont know the "real" story about life in palestine and am ignorant of it but its just my bias, i guess.
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On July 25 2014 13:00 tetelestai wrote:
Israel and Palestine are both at fault. They both sit back and kill each other and cry like babies when one grows the balls to do something, whether it was the most morale thing to do or not. This is a war, and it has been going on since biblical times. The war is over the holy land, and they both think that they are entitled to it. It all goes back to the Biblical story of Ishmel and Isaac. One son that was practically ignored because the only child he really payed attention to was supposedly the miracle child to come from an 80 year old women. Thus, creating the fight for the holy land since Joseph's descendants were promised to live there by God. But I'm more on Israel's side than Palestine on this one. Neither are perfect and are major F heads, but Iv'e seen some messed up crap coming from Palestine TV show and stuff that are just horrendous.
On July 23 2014 18:33 ninazerg wrote:
For anyone who says "They've been fighting for thousands of years", that's bullshit; from 638 A.D. to 1947 A.D., Palestine has been an Arab territory, controlled by Arabs who have lived peacefully alongside Jewish people for ages until the Balfour Declaration and the British policy of allowing massive Jewish immigration during the 1930s.
Please, I'm going to ask you nicely not to bring religion into this. Both sides are NOT at fault. Israeli has the best-trained and one of the most well-armed military forces in the world, whereas the people in Gaza and the West Bank have nothing. Hamas has improved explosives, rocket launchers and machine guns, while Israel has F-16 fighters, M1A1 Tanks, and Namer Fighting Vehicles. It's hard to just say "Well, they both need to just stop fighting" when Israel has an institutionalized policy of oppression and deportation, which it enforces with incredible military might.
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Hamas and the uçk use the same methods of provocation, however Serbia was bombed by the NATO, and for less people killed.
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just look at what they're teaching to their new generations. institutionalized xenophobia and racism vs martyrdom and suicide bombers as the only way out of this conflict.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textbooks_in_Israel#Assessments_of_Hebrew_textbooks_in_relation_to_their_depiction_of_Arabs
In his 2004 article "The Arab Image in Hebrew School Textbooks", Dan Bar-Tal of Tel Aviv University studied 124 textbooks used in Israeli schools. He concluded that generations of Israeli Jews have been taught a negative and often delegitimizing view of Arabs. He claims Arabs are portrayed in these textbooks as primitive, inferior in comparison to Jews, violent, untrustworthy, fanatic, treacherous and aggressive. While history books in the elementary schools hardly mentioned Arabs, the high school textbooks that covered the Arab–Jewish conflict, stereotyped Arabs negatively, as intransigent and uncompromising.
Nurit Peled-Elhanan, a professor of language and education at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, published Palestine in Israeli School Books: Ideology and Propaganda in Education, an account of her study of the contents of Israeli school books. She asserts that the books promote racism against and negative images of Arabs, and that they prepare young Israelis for their compulsory military service. After examining "hundreds and hundreds" of books, Peled-Elhanan claims she did not find one photograph that depicted an Arab as a "normal person". She has stated that the most important finding in the books she studied concerns the historical narrative of events in 1948, the year in which Israel fought a war to establish itself as an independent state. She claims that the killing of Palestinians is depicted as something that was necessary for the survival of the nascent Jewish state. "It's not that the massacres are denied, they are represented in Israeli school books as something that in the long run was good for the Jewish state."[10] "[T]he Israeli version of events are stated as objective facts, while the Palestinian-Arab versions are stated as possibility, realized in openings such as 'According to the Arab version' ... [or] 'Dier [sic.] Yassin became a myth in the Palestinian narrative ... a horrifying negative image of the Jewish conqueror in the eyes of Israel's Arabs'. (Palestine in Israeli School Books, pp. 50–51)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suicide_bombers_in_the_Israeli–Palestinian_conflict
According to the Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group, in the al-Aqsa Intifada, children were used as "messengers and couriers, and in some cases as fighters and suicide bombers in attacks on Israeli soldiers and civilians" durimng the al-Aqsa Intifada. Fatah, Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad Movement and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine have all been implicated in involving children in this way. The issue was brought to world attention after a widely televised incident in which a mentally handicapped Palestinian teenager, Hussam Abdo, was disarmed at an Israeli checkpoint.[7] The youngest Palestinian suicide bomber who blew himself up was Issa Bdeir, a 16-year-old high school student from the village of Al Doha. He blew himself up in a park in Rishon LeZion, killing a teenage boy and an elderly man.
i still think israelis are way worse here. they teach that shit to a whole country.
suicide bombers are not that easy to come by and it usually involves psychological or physical traumas suffered by those boys sometime in their lives.
+ Show Spoiler +yes, i choose to believe a professor and human rights activist then some then some officially sanctioned bullshit
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On July 25 2014 14:27 ninazerg wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 13:00 tetelestai wrote:
Israel and Palestine are both at fault. They both sit back and kill each other and cry like babies when one grows the balls to do something, whether it was the most morale thing to do or not. This is a war, and it has been going on since biblical times. The war is over the holy land, and they both think that they are entitled to it. It all goes back to the Biblical story of Ishmel and Isaac. One son that was practically ignored because the only child he really payed attention to was supposedly the miracle child to come from an 80 year old women. Thus, creating the fight for the holy land since Joseph's descendants were promised to live there by God. But I'm more on Israel's side than Palestine on this one. Neither are perfect and are major F heads, but Iv'e seen some messed up crap coming from Palestine TV show and stuff that are just horrendous. Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 18:33 ninazerg wrote:
For anyone who says "They've been fighting for thousands of years", that's bullshit; from 638 A.D. to 1947 A.D., Palestine has been an Arab territory, controlled by Arabs who have lived peacefully alongside Jewish people for ages until the Balfour Declaration and the British policy of allowing massive Jewish immigration during the 1930s. Please, I'm going to ask you nicely not to bring religion into this. Both sides are NOT at fault. Israeli has the best-trained and one of the most well-armed military forces in the world, whereas the people in Gaza and the West Bank have nothing. Hamas has improved explosives, rocket launchers and machine guns, while Israel has F-16 fighters, M1A1 Tanks, and Namer Fighting Vehicles. It's hard to just say "Well, they both need to just stop fighting" when Israel has an institutionalized policy of oppression and deportation, which it enforces with incredible military might.
Do you even know why israel needs that army ? its not because of Gaza i will tell you that , they had several attacks against its territory in order to KILL EVERY LIVING person inside of israel by ALL of the sorrounding countries , so they build a big army so that cant happen .
Gaza are not trying to build themselves as a country (Hamas isnt at least) , they get electricity and cement and weed from israel , they use the aid money to build 100M USD worh of tunnels , you could count the numbers of killed ppl , its 700 in 17 days , please show me another country that will have rockets flying on 70% of the population and will react in such moderation , the USA/Russia/China/ANY OTHER COUNTRY/ will have gone to ALL OUT WAR and just demolish Gaza to the ground , with tens of thousands dead.
also note , that Egypt closes the south border and no one is saying nothing to them , but sure let israel open the sea so more missiles and guns be shipped to Gaza .
in the end of the day , Gaza ppl should try and build a country as neigoburs of israel , but they dont want too , they want to cast them away , and this wont happen .
why in all the time that israel left there , they dont try and build an econonmy , they dont try and create nothing , just use the money for terror , and there was a time (80`s) that they would come and work in israel , but you can understand why this is not an option anymore .
if you dont want to show any sign of progress and all you do is do terror attacks and declare you want to kill every person in israel , dont be supprised you get smacked on your head when you cross a line .
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On July 25 2014 09:39 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 09:25 Nyxisto wrote:On July 25 2014 08:57 WhiteDog wrote:On July 25 2014 08:50 Nyxisto wrote:On July 25 2014 08:45 WhiteDog wrote:On July 25 2014 08:43 Nyxisto wrote:
I just linked you a source from a UN website. Are you at least reading what I post before you reply? I didn't doubt anybody. I just don't think it's okay that the UN is so lax about having rockets stored in their official facilities. You linked a source about empty school, putting doubt on the UN credibility in this matter and on the specific school that has been bombarded. What's the point in talking about empty school ? It is propaganda and you're part of it. The school was not empty, as UN staff had to be evacuated, and the neighbouring schools hosted 1.5k refugees. The UN needs to keep their shit together, they simply can not have weapons stored in close proximity to so many people. They did,they said they will control all their facilities, and they controlled the one that was bombarded by Israeli (before the attack). They now found two school with rockets, released a statement about it and evacuated the school. What should they do ? The only thing you are doing is, something that would be unacceptable in any other conflict, putting doubt on the UN. It is something that the media, and people, only do about Israel : when the UN, or any other international agency, release a paper or the result of investigation on Israel, it is always okay to criticize it. No, if Israeli forces deliberately attack a school and there were no military combatants or weapons in the building then it's illegitimate and needs to be condemned. What I don't do is sitting around in my room, mouth drooling, just waiting for the newest sensational headline what the IDF has done wrong now. All asymmetrical modern wars look like the conflict between Palestine and Israel, and a lot of them look even worse. And although the Hamas is not carrying people literally around in front of them, leading members of the Hamas have repeatedly stated that civilians are not supposed to leave the bombed areas. It is also a fact that they have fired rockets out of areas that contained civilians and civil infrastructure. The fact that rockets have been found in UN buildings is yet another example of how the Hamas operates. You are missing the point. This is not a war. As much as Israel tries to make it seem like a war, it's not. This is a bunch of terrorists firing rockets into Israel, and Israel responding by bombing the general population of Gaza. You say they're using them as human shields, that they're supposed to stay in these areas... Gaza is one of the most densely populated strips of land on Earth (Gaza City is more densely populated than New York City). There is nowhere else for them to go that isn't also being bombed. The whole thing is almost the size of Washington DC and has 1.8 million people living in it.
you are not only missing the point , you dont even know the facts .....
what do you mean by bunch of terrorists its their GOVERMENT , they gaza ppl elected them over Fatah!
its their MISSILES going towards ISRAEL GENERAL POPULATION , for more then a decade (on sederot) , and now they shoot it across all the land (over 100 a day of balitic missiles), what would you do ? tell me , what line of action would you take , if your Washington DC was bombed by anyone ? let me guess , you would ship several navi carriers do half across the globe then conquer an entire country which the terrorists came from , and everyone will cheer because you are fighting a good cause!
you know why Egypt is closing the borders on the south side ? because they provide guns and terror equipment to the Sinai Area , please for once in this thread , someone can give me one good way to act ?
dead pepole is never ok , and never encouraged , but please one suggestion on what to do when your major cities (Tel Aviv) is being bombed.
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On July 25 2014 18:17 bluzi wrote:
Gaza are not trying to build themselves as a country (Hamas isnt at least) , they get electricity and cement and weed from israel , they use the aid money to build 100M USD worh of tunnels , you could count the numbers of killed ppl , its 700 in 17 days , please show me another country that will have rockets flying on 70% of the population and will react in such moderation , the USA/Russia/China/ANY OTHER COUNTRY/ will have gone to ALL OUT WAR and just demolish Gaza to the ground , with tens of thousands dead.
Other countries, the civilized ones at least, would go in, take over and not kill civilians randomly. Going in does not mean you shoot at everything that moves. Demolishing Gaza to the ground is not only way to solve this problem, but it seems that is a wish of many in Israel as people like you keep coming here and telling us this.
I cannot believe your mindset is either kill random civilians with rockets or kill all civilians with ground troops.
I guess Israel is like a child that has been abused by its parents and now only knows how to abuse others in turn.
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On July 25 2014 13:15 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 12:03 Agathon wrote:On July 25 2014 10:42 Nyxisto wrote:On July 25 2014 10:32 Agathon wrote:On July 25 2014 09:25 Nyxisto wrote:On July 25 2014 08:57 WhiteDog wrote:On July 25 2014 08:50 Nyxisto wrote:On July 25 2014 08:45 WhiteDog wrote:On July 25 2014 08:43 Nyxisto wrote:
I just linked you a source from a UN website. Are you at least reading what I post before you reply? I didn't doubt anybody. I just don't think it's okay that the UN is so lax about having rockets stored in their official facilities. You linked a source about empty school, putting doubt on the UN credibility in this matter and on the specific school that has been bombarded. What's the point in talking about empty school ? It is propaganda and you're part of it. The school was not empty, as UN staff had to be evacuated, and the neighbouring schools hosted 1.5k refugees. The UN needs to keep their shit together, they simply can not have weapons stored in close proximity to so many people. They did,they said they will control all their facilities, and they controlled the one that was bombarded by Israeli (before the attack). They now found two school with rockets, released a statement about it and evacuated the school. What should they do ? The only thing you are doing is, something that would be unacceptable in any other conflict, putting doubt on the UN. It is something that the media, and people, only do about Israel : when the UN, or any other international agency, release a paper or the result of investigation on Israel, it is always okay to criticize it. No, if Israeli forces deliberately attack a school and there were no military combatants or weapons in the building then it's illegitimate and needs to be condemned. What I don't do is sitting around in my room, mouth drooling, just waiting for the newest sensational headline what the IDF has done wrong now. All asymmetrical modern wars look like the conflict between Palestine and Israel, and a lot of them look even worse. And although the Hamas is not carrying people literally around in front of them, leading members of the Hamas have repeatedly stated that civilians are not supposed to leave the bombed areas. It is also a fact that they have fired rockets out of areas that contained civilians and civil infrastructure. The fact that rockets have been found in UN buildings is yet another example of how the Hamas operates. "No, if Israeli forces deliberately attack a school and there were no military combatants or weapons in the building then it's illegitimate and needs to be condemned" Do you mean that there are any legitimate reasons to kill children? It's a polemical question. Short answer, Yes, if they are unavoidable and not deliberately targeted. International law reflects that too. Proportionality is a key word here. This is what Moreno-Ocampo, Chief prosecutor at the International Criminal Court had to say regarding allegations of war crimes committed by the US in Iraq Under international humanitarian law and the Rome Statute, the death of civilians during an armed conflict, no matter how grave and regrettable, does not in itself constitute a war crime. International humanitarian law and the Rome Statute permit belligerents to carry out proportionate attacks against military objectives, even when it is known that some civilian deaths or injuries will occur. A crime occurs if there is an intentional attack directed against civilians (principle of distinction) (Article 8(2)(b)(i)) or an attack is launched on a military objective in the knowledge that the incidental civilian injuries would be clearly excessive in relation to the anticipated military advantage
Article 8(2)(b)(iv) criminalizes:
Intentionally launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects or widespread, long-term and severe damage to the natural environment which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated;
"Yes, if they are unavoidable and not deliberately targeted." But they are deliberately targeted. Israel knows that there are moslty civilians in the places they bomb. They deliberately target the place anyway hoping that it will also kill fighters and destroy weapons.About the unavoidable, not shooting is a decent way to avoid...killing. isnt it more likely "Israel knows that there are militants in the places they bomb. They target the place anyway hoping that it will minimize civilian casualty"?
im sure there are extremists in the israeli side (like in any side) doing what you're thinking, but i dearly hope they're the minority and not likely to be in power. to say israel wants to kill civilians in a way they can get away with, well, thats a leap of faith i guess.
It obviously doesn't minimize casualties. And it's not new.
I don't know what's they goal in private, but when I watch the result it's seems to be more likely ; "There are weapons and militants there, lets bomb the place ! Civilians? Who cares??"
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On July 25 2014 18:28 bluzi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 09:39 DinoMight wrote:On July 25 2014 09:25 Nyxisto wrote:On July 25 2014 08:57 WhiteDog wrote:On July 25 2014 08:50 Nyxisto wrote:On July 25 2014 08:45 WhiteDog wrote:On July 25 2014 08:43 Nyxisto wrote:
I just linked you a source from a UN website. Are you at least reading what I post before you reply? I didn't doubt anybody. I just don't think it's okay that the UN is so lax about having rockets stored in their official facilities. You linked a source about empty school, putting doubt on the UN credibility in this matter and on the specific school that has been bombarded. What's the point in talking about empty school ? It is propaganda and you're part of it. The school was not empty, as UN staff had to be evacuated, and the neighbouring schools hosted 1.5k refugees. The UN needs to keep their shit together, they simply can not have weapons stored in close proximity to so many people. They did,they said they will control all their facilities, and they controlled the one that was bombarded by Israeli (before the attack). They now found two school with rockets, released a statement about it and evacuated the school. What should they do ? The only thing you are doing is, something that would be unacceptable in any other conflict, putting doubt on the UN. It is something that the media, and people, only do about Israel : when the UN, or any other international agency, release a paper or the result of investigation on Israel, it is always okay to criticize it. No, if Israeli forces deliberately attack a school and there were no military combatants or weapons in the building then it's illegitimate and needs to be condemned. What I don't do is sitting around in my room, mouth drooling, just waiting for the newest sensational headline what the IDF has done wrong now. All asymmetrical modern wars look like the conflict between Palestine and Israel, and a lot of them look even worse. And although the Hamas is not carrying people literally around in front of them, leading members of the Hamas have repeatedly stated that civilians are not supposed to leave the bombed areas. It is also a fact that they have fired rockets out of areas that contained civilians and civil infrastructure. The fact that rockets have been found in UN buildings is yet another example of how the Hamas operates. You are missing the point. This is not a war. As much as Israel tries to make it seem like a war, it's not. This is a bunch of terrorists firing rockets into Israel, and Israel responding by bombing the general population of Gaza. You say they're using them as human shields, that they're supposed to stay in these areas... Gaza is one of the most densely populated strips of land on Earth (Gaza City is more densely populated than New York City). There is nowhere else for them to go that isn't also being bombed. The whole thing is almost the size of Washington DC and has 1.8 million people living in it. you are not only missing the point , you dont even know the facts ..... what do you mean by bunch of terrorists its their GOVERMENT , they gaza ppl elected them over Fatah! its their MISSILES going towards ISRAEL GENERAL POPULATION , for more then a decade (on sederot) , and now they shoot it across all the land (over 100 a day of balitic missiles), what would you do ? tell me , what line of action would you take , if your Washington DC was bombed by anyone ? let me guess , you would ship several navi carriers do half across the globe then conquer an entire country which the terrorists came from , and everyone will cheer because you are fighting a good cause! you know why Egypt is closing the borders on the south side ? because they provide guns and terror equipment to the Sinai Area , please for once in this thread , someone can give me one good way to act ? dead pepole is never ok , and never encouraged , but please one suggestion on what to do when your major cities (Tel Aviv) is being bombed.
Maybe they could choose to negotiate and surrender to the Palestinian demands (1967 or 1948 borders, it doesn't matter because Israel doesn't have legitimacy for either but that's another discussion). But of course that won't happen, instead they build even more illegal settlements. It's easier to pull off a massacre in Gaza or Lebanon every now and then and blame it on the rockets.
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On July 25 2014 19:25 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 18:17 bluzi wrote:
Gaza are not trying to build themselves as a country (Hamas isnt at least) , they get electricity and cement and weed from israel , they use the aid money to build 100M USD worh of tunnels , you could count the numbers of killed ppl , its 700 in 17 days , please show me another country that will have rockets flying on 70% of the population and will react in such moderation , the USA/Russia/China/ANY OTHER COUNTRY/ will have gone to ALL OUT WAR and just demolish Gaza to the ground , with tens of thousands dead.
Other countries, the civilized ones at least, would go in, take over and not kill civilians randomly. Going in does not mean you shoot at everything that moves. Demolishing Gaza to the ground is not only way to solve this problem, but it seems that is a wish of many in Israel as people like you keep coming here and telling us this. I cannot believe your mindset is either kill random civilians with rockets or kill all civilians with ground troops. I guess Israel is like a child that has been abused by its parents and now only knows how to abuse others in turn.
OK , so you think its better for israel to conquer Gaza , and by doing so it make the citizens safer ? you realize they fight within the generall population ? there isnt heroic face 2 face combat (nor it shouldnt from their pov).
taking over is not something israel should do , nor will any of the members of this thread will agree to.
you can go to wiki and see that in the iraq invasion 7500 civilians died.
please dont give me this bullshit civilized countries , all the greatest mankind catstrophies were done by such countries :
German Natzies.
Japan in china.
Nuke bombing.
and sooooooooooooooo many other examples.
my mind set is peace trust me , we elected left wing goverment for over a decade , but no negoationes succeded , they wanted to give away east jerusalem , all of gaza / west bank/ and more , and it didnt work.
now the moderate had enough , and so the right is gaining momentum (like it happens in Gaza) , this is a shitty situation,
but when it comes down to it , you guys just doesnt live here , and dont understand the situation as we do , its easy to criticize , but when your countries are getting into the slightest of conflicts ten of thousands die.
Again i emphasize , in 20 days of this "war" , 700 ppl died in gaza (including Hamas activsts) , this is a low (and painful) number for such long duration of army activity.
again no one is commenting on Egypt border being blocked due to terror in Sinai .
and again i want to emphasize we are not shooting everything that moves , this is such a big missconception , see the numbers before you write such BS.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On July 25 2014 19:42 EtherealBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 18:28 bluzi wrote:On July 25 2014 09:39 DinoMight wrote:On July 25 2014 09:25 Nyxisto wrote:On July 25 2014 08:57 WhiteDog wrote:On July 25 2014 08:50 Nyxisto wrote:On July 25 2014 08:45 WhiteDog wrote:On July 25 2014 08:43 Nyxisto wrote:
I just linked you a source from a UN website. Are you at least reading what I post before you reply? I didn't doubt anybody. I just don't think it's okay that the UN is so lax about having rockets stored in their official facilities. You linked a source about empty school, putting doubt on the UN credibility in this matter and on the specific school that has been bombarded. What's the point in talking about empty school ? It is propaganda and you're part of it. The school was not empty, as UN staff had to be evacuated, and the neighbouring schools hosted 1.5k refugees. The UN needs to keep their shit together, they simply can not have weapons stored in close proximity to so many people. They did,they said they will control all their facilities, and they controlled the one that was bombarded by Israeli (before the attack). They now found two school with rockets, released a statement about it and evacuated the school. What should they do ? The only thing you are doing is, something that would be unacceptable in any other conflict, putting doubt on the UN. It is something that the media, and people, only do about Israel : when the UN, or any other international agency, release a paper or the result of investigation on Israel, it is always okay to criticize it. No, if Israeli forces deliberately attack a school and there were no military combatants or weapons in the building then it's illegitimate and needs to be condemned. What I don't do is sitting around in my room, mouth drooling, just waiting for the newest sensational headline what the IDF has done wrong now. All asymmetrical modern wars look like the conflict between Palestine and Israel, and a lot of them look even worse. And although the Hamas is not carrying people literally around in front of them, leading members of the Hamas have repeatedly stated that civilians are not supposed to leave the bombed areas. It is also a fact that they have fired rockets out of areas that contained civilians and civil infrastructure. The fact that rockets have been found in UN buildings is yet another example of how the Hamas operates. You are missing the point. This is not a war. As much as Israel tries to make it seem like a war, it's not. This is a bunch of terrorists firing rockets into Israel, and Israel responding by bombing the general population of Gaza. You say they're using them as human shields, that they're supposed to stay in these areas... Gaza is one of the most densely populated strips of land on Earth (Gaza City is more densely populated than New York City). There is nowhere else for them to go that isn't also being bombed. The whole thing is almost the size of Washington DC and has 1.8 million people living in it. you are not only missing the point , you dont even know the facts ..... what do you mean by bunch of terrorists its their GOVERMENT , they gaza ppl elected them over Fatah! its their MISSILES going towards ISRAEL GENERAL POPULATION , for more then a decade (on sederot) , and now they shoot it across all the land (over 100 a day of balitic missiles), what would you do ? tell me , what line of action would you take , if your Washington DC was bombed by anyone ? let me guess , you would ship several navi carriers do half across the globe then conquer an entire country which the terrorists came from , and everyone will cheer because you are fighting a good cause! you know why Egypt is closing the borders on the south side ? because they provide guns and terror equipment to the Sinai Area , please for once in this thread , someone can give me one good way to act ? dead pepole is never ok , and never encouraged , but please one suggestion on what to do when your major cities (Tel Aviv) is being bombed. Maybe they could choose to negotiate and surrender to the Palestinian demands (1967 or 1948 borders, it doesn't matter because Israel doesn't have legitimacy for either but that's another discussion). But of course that won't happen, instead they build even more illegal settlements. It's easier to pull off a massacre in Gaza or Lebanon every now and then and blame it on the rockets.
Again , you dont anwer a simple question when i repsond , what will your countries will do if being bombed by rockets ?
I gave the example of what the US will do if being attacked by a terror organziation.
you can read what Russia did in Chechenia and so on.
why is Egypt closing the border ?
you are just not willing to see the other side , which makes your points so biased , i for one think the Gaze ppl are in a bad spot , and i whish i could help them get rid of hamas , get a country (which we tried to do several times) and try and develop something which isnt a terror city.
i believe that if the average person can live a normal life he will not want to wager war , no one here in israel is happy about killing civilians ,we have internal debate on the legitmacy of the bombing every day because we do have morals , but you just dont understand nor you will ever know what its like to have bomb falling on you from the skies all the time , or 4 states around you attacking in an ambition to kill your entire population.
again :
GAZA has no settlements and no israely ppl/army inside of it for several years now , Gaza!=west bank.
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On July 25 2014 18:28 bluzi wrote:
they gaza ppl elected them over Fatah!
I wonder why that happened ? Let's look at some keywords here, shall we ?
Systematic
-Destruction of property
-Unwarranted, rampant colonizing
-Terrorizing civilians
-Bullshit embargoes
I'm sure the list goes on but this at least covers the basics, wouldn't you say ?
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On July 25 2014 20:32 bluzi wrote:
Again , you dont anwer a simple question when i repsond , what will your countries will do if being bombed by rockets ?
Please specify why my country is hypothetically being bombed by rockets and I'll answer your question.
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The saddest thing is that Israel occupied Gaza in the past. They willfully retreated and abandoned their colonies as well. Then the Hamas took over Gaza...
After their experience with Gaza, I don't think Israel will retreat from the Westbank in the foreseeable future.
Concerning cease-fires, all previous ones were not accepted by the Hamas and the Hamas - I think - will fight on till they run out of rockets.
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On July 25 2014 20:44 HeatEXTEND wrote:I wonder why that happened ? Let's look at some keywords here, shall we ? Systematic -Destruction of property -Unwarranted, rampant colonizing -Terrorizing civilians -Bullshit embargoes I'm sure the list goes on but this at least covers the basics, wouldn't you say ?
You missed the part, that Israel did everything they could to make Fatah look bad compared to the Hamas.  When Fatah went into the elections promising negotiations instead of rockets, Israel did their best to make those negotiations fail.
Fatah btw accepted Israels right of existence and agreed to the two state solution and borders proposed 1967. It is time for Israel to finally accept the right of existence for a palestinean state and agree to the 1967 agreement. And yes, that includes razing the few hundred settlements they build during the last decades.
But all they do is playing for time, so they get more and more areas, where they can find some idiot that can claim he was born there. (because his parents were illegal settlers)
Oh and as we are at it. as Bunzi likes to point out, how every other state would response to rockets... I have the feeling, that every other nation would also respond to their neighbor establishing settlements on the wrong side of the border...
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On July 25 2014 20:51 AA.spoon wrote:
The saddest thing is that Israel occupied Gaza in the past. They willfully retreated and abandoned their colonies as well. Then the Hamas took over Gaza...
After their experience with Gaza, I don't think Israel will retreat from the Westbank in the foreseeable future.
Concerning cease-fires, all previous ones were not accepted by the Hamas and the Hamas - I think - will fight on till they run out of rockets.
Israel is still occupying according to international law ! Don't mistake yourself : they control air, borders, water, ressources and the economy to a certain extent. Everything that goes in and out is controlled by Israel and, because of that, they are an occupying power according to the UN.
Nobody ever said that prisons are owned by the prisonners.
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On July 25 2014 20:59 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 20:51 AA.spoon wrote:
The saddest thing is that Israel occupied Gaza in the past. They willfully retreated and abandoned their colonies as well. Then the Hamas took over Gaza...
After their experience with Gaza, I don't think Israel will retreat from the Westbank in the foreseeable future.
Concerning cease-fires, all previous ones were not accepted by the Hamas and the Hamas - I think - will fight on till they run out of rockets. Israel is still occupying according to international law ! Don't mistake yourself : they control air, borders, water, ressources and the economy to a certain extent. Everything that goes in and out is controlled by Israel and, because of that, they are an occupying power according to the UN. Nobody ever said that prisons are owned by the prisonners.
You forgot Egypt in your picture.
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On July 25 2014 21:06 AA.spoon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 20:59 WhiteDog wrote:On July 25 2014 20:51 AA.spoon wrote:
The saddest thing is that Israel occupied Gaza in the past. They willfully retreated and abandoned their colonies as well. Then the Hamas took over Gaza...
After their experience with Gaza, I don't think Israel will retreat from the Westbank in the foreseeable future.
Concerning cease-fires, all previous ones were not accepted by the Hamas and the Hamas - I think - will fight on till they run out of rockets. Israel is still occupying according to international law ! Don't mistake yourself : they control air, borders, water, ressources and the economy to a certain extent. Everything that goes in and out is controlled by Israel and, because of that, they are an occupying power according to the UN. Nobody ever said that prisons are owned by the prisonners. You forgot Egypt in your picture.
Egypt is a mess. Btw, it is perfectly normal for a country to close its border, like Israel or Egypt is doing, but it should not control the water ressource, the sea and the air spaice, that is the blocade.
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On July 25 2014 20:56 mahrgell wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 20:44 HeatEXTEND wrote:On July 25 2014 18:28 bluzi wrote:
they gaza ppl elected them over Fatah!
I wonder why that happened ? Let's look at some keywords here, shall we ? Systematic -Destruction of property -Unwarranted, rampant colonizing -Terrorizing civilians -Bullshit embargoes I'm sure the list goes on but this at least covers the basics, wouldn't you say ? You missed the part, that Israel did everything they could to make Fatah look bad compared to the Hamas. When Fatah went into the elections promising negotiations instead of rockets, Israel did their best to make those negotiations fail. Fatah btw accepted Israels right of existence and agreed to the two state solution and borders proposed 1967. It is time for Israel to finally accept the right of existence for a palestinean state and agree to the 1967 agreement. And yes, that includes razing the few hundred settlements they build during the last decades. But all they do is playing for time, so they get more and more areas, where they can find some idiot that can claim he was born there. (because his parents were illegal settlers) Oh and as we are at it. as Bunzi likes to point out, how every other state would response to rockets... I have the feeling, that every other nation would also respond to their neighbor establishing settlements on the wrong side of the border...
This is one of the biggest thing I have against Israel. They could have gotten peace if they supported Fatah, but no, they chose to undermine it in favor of the Hamas. Security for Israel does not mean peace, it means winning a war, and they can only wage war if the Hamas is in power.
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EPT
