On July 25 2014 08:43 Nyxisto wrote: I just linked you a source from a UN website. Are you at least reading what I post before you reply? I didn't doubt anybody. I just don't think it's okay that the UN is so lax about having rockets stored in their official facilities.
You linked a source about empty school, putting doubt on the UN credibility in this matter and on the specific school that has been bombarded. What's the point in talking about empty school ? It is propaganda and you're part of it.
The school was not empty, as UN staff had to be evacuated, and the neighbouring schools hosted 1.5k refugees. The UN needs to keep their shit together, they simply can not have weapons stored in close proximity to so many people.
On July 25 2014 08:43 Nyxisto wrote: I just linked you a source from a UN website. Are you at least reading what I post before you reply? I didn't doubt anybody. I just don't think it's okay that the UN is so lax about having rockets stored in their official facilities.
You linked a source about empty school, putting doubt on the UN credibility in this matter and on the specific school that has been bombarded. What's the point in talking about empty school ? It is propaganda and you're part of it.
The school was not empty, as UN staff had to be evacuated, and the neighbouring schools hosted 1.5k refugees. The UN needs to keep their shit together, they simply can not have weapons stored in close proximity to so many people.
They did,they said they will control all their facilities, and they controlled the one that was bombarded by Israeli (before the attack). They now found two school with rockets, released a statement about it and evacuated the school. What should they do ?
The only thing you are doing is, something that would be unacceptable in any other conflict, putting doubt on the UN. It is something that the media, and people, only do about Israel : when the UN, or any other international agency, release a paper or the result of investigation on Israel, it is always okay to criticize it.
It comes from nowhere, no source, no indication on the place, nothing.
There are a lot of work from the UN, and from international institutions such as Human Right Watch or Amnesty International, and altho those institutions clearly showed that the Hamas tortured or murdered Palestinians, everybody more or less agree on the fact that using children as shield is not a practice Hamas has done in any of the previous wars.
In several cases Israeli soldiers also used civilians, including children, as “human shields”, endangering their lives by forcing them to remain in or near houses which they took over and used as military positions. Some were forced to carry out dangerous tasks such as inspecting properties or objects suspected of being booby-trapped. Soldiers also took position and launched attacks from and around inhabited houses, exposing local residents to the danger of attacks or of being caught in the crossfire.
However, contrary to repeated allegations by Israeli officials of the use of “human shields”, Amnesty International found no evidence that Hamas or other Palestinian fighters directed the movement of civilians to shield military objectives from attacks. It found no evidence that Hamas or other armed groups forced residents to stay in or around buildings used by fighters, nor that fighters prevented residents from leaving buildings or areas which had been commandeered by militants.
Merkel stills supports Israel, when it comes to foreign affairs, our government is a joke...
Any sane Western government is going to support Israel. Regardless of whether you think Israel has wronged Palestine, the bottom line is that Israel is a fundamentally Western country than can be a reliable partner in trade and other affairs. You can't say that for Palestine.
Daunt
I just thought that I would point out that you are totally over-estimating the importance of Israel as a trade partner for the EU. First of all, Israel is a relatively small country without huge amounts of goods to export. Countries such as Nigeria and Saudi Arabia on the other hand are huge amounts but if they started to commit genocide in neighbouring countries, you would not see major support. The bottom line is, the EU and America are allied with Israel and eventhough they have so far killed over a 100 children, injured many more, bombed schools & hospitals and are probably killing more as we speak, the only reaction we're getting from prime ministers and foreign ministers in the EU is 'our good friend Israel, please stop the killing' (the unsaid words being, no matter how many you kill and how much land you annex. We will always offer you our passive support.)
It comes from nowhere, no source, no indication on the place, nothing.
where else on the world are arab speaking terrorists that need to gather children around them when firing a mortar?
Is it a serious question ? It could be an israeli TV show for all I care.
Israeli using kids as shield does not shock you ?
Edit : A quick search and apparently it's a hoax
A video posted on You Tube claiming to show Hamas using children as a human shield has been exposed as a fake.
The 30-second clip, viewed over 100,000 times shows children cowering as artillery is fired in a street.
But the harrowing footage posted last week on July 17 is included in another video posted months before the recent hostilities between Israel and Hamas in Gaza.
The longer clip, entitled “**MUST SEE** Syrian Kids Launching Mortar Together!” was posted on February 12.
It comes from nowhere, no source, no indication on the place, nothing.
where else on the world are arab speaking terrorists that need to gather children around them when firing a mortar?
Could just be educating the children to use mortars against their oppressors.
Also you know that they were not "literally" using them as shields right? No one is holding a kid up in front of them to stop attacks like a shield. The way you used the word is not what "literally" means.
On July 25 2014 08:43 Nyxisto wrote: I just linked you a source from a UN website. Are you at least reading what I post before you reply? I didn't doubt anybody. I just don't think it's okay that the UN is so lax about having rockets stored in their official facilities.
You linked a source about empty school, putting doubt on the UN credibility in this matter and on the specific school that has been bombarded. What's the point in talking about empty school ? It is propaganda and you're part of it.
The school was not empty, as UN staff had to be evacuated, and the neighbouring schools hosted 1.5k refugees. The UN needs to keep their shit together, they simply can not have weapons stored in close proximity to so many people.
They did,they said they will control all their facilities, and they controlled the one that was bombarded by Israeli (before the attack). They now found two school with rockets, released a statement about it and evacuated the school. What should they do ?
The only thing you are doing is, something that would be unacceptable in any other conflict, putting doubt on the UN. It is something that the media, and people, only do about Israel : when the UN, or any other international agency, release a paper or the result of investigation on Israel, it is always okay to criticize it.
No, if Israeli forces deliberately attack a school and there were no military combatants or weapons in the building then it's illegitimate and needs to be condemned. What I don't do is sitting around in my room, mouth drooling, just waiting for the newest sensational headline what the IDF has done wrong now. All asymmetrical modern wars look like the conflict between Palestine and Israel, and a lot of them look even worse.
And although the Hamas is not carrying people literally around in front of them, leading members of the Hamas have repeatedly stated that civilians are not supposed to leave the bombed areas. It is also a fact that they have fired rockets out of areas that contained civilians and civil infrastructure. The fact that rockets have been found in UN buildings is yet another example of how the Hamas operates.
On July 25 2014 08:43 Nyxisto wrote: I just linked you a source from a UN website. Are you at least reading what I post before you reply? I didn't doubt anybody. I just don't think it's okay that the UN is so lax about having rockets stored in their official facilities.
You linked a source about empty school, putting doubt on the UN credibility in this matter and on the specific school that has been bombarded. What's the point in talking about empty school ? It is propaganda and you're part of it.
The school was not empty, as UN staff had to be evacuated, and the neighbouring schools hosted 1.5k refugees. The UN needs to keep their shit together, they simply can not have weapons stored in close proximity to so many people.
They did,they said they will control all their facilities, and they controlled the one that was bombarded by Israeli (before the attack). They now found two school with rockets, released a statement about it and evacuated the school. What should they do ?
The only thing you are doing is, something that would be unacceptable in any other conflict, putting doubt on the UN. It is something that the media, and people, only do about Israel : when the UN, or any other international agency, release a paper or the result of investigation on Israel, it is always okay to criticize it.
No, if Israeli forces deliberately attack a school and there were no military combatants or weapons in the building then it's illegitimate and needs to be condemned. What I don't do is sitting around in my room, mouth drooling, just waiting for the newest sensational headline what the IDF has done wrong now. All asymmetrical modern wars look like the conflict between Palestine and Israel, and a lot of them look even worse.
And although the Hamas is not carrying people literally around in front of them, leading members of the Hamas have repeatedly stated that civilians are not supposed to leave the bombed areas. It is also a fact that they have fired rockets out of areas that contained civilians and civil infrastructure. The fact that rockets have been found in UN buildings is yet another example of how the Hamas operates.
You are missing the point. This is not a war. As much as Israel tries to make it seem like a war, it's not.
This is a bunch of terrorists firing rockets into Israel, and Israel responding by bombing the general population of Gaza.
You say they're using them as human shields, that they're supposed to stay in these areas... Gaza is one of the most densely populated strips of land on Earth (Gaza City is more densely populated than New York City). There is nowhere else for them to go that isn't also being bombed. The whole thing is almost the size of Washington DC and has 1.8 million people living in it.
Merkel stills supports Israel, when it comes to foreign affairs, our government is a joke...
Any sane Western government is going to support Israel. Regardless of whether you think Israel has wronged Palestine, the bottom line is that Israel is a fundamentally Western country than can be a reliable partner in trade and other affairs. You can't say that for Palestine.
Obviously not. Want me to explain why that is, or do you just play dumb?
hey buddy why dont you stop calling people dumb? and stop acting like you are the only one who understands whats going on gaza and can "explain stuff".
If i feel the need to call someone dumb, i will do so. Luckily, i didn't. I asked him if he plays dumb. Wanna stop calling me buddy and stop backseatmoderating?
Not to mention that it's ridiculous to say "well Israel is a good trading partner, Palestine isn't - well no shit, since they can't rebuild their infrastructure thanks to prohibition of building materials and control over their exports. And i'm pretty sure xDaunt knows that.
Even though i don't entirely disagree when he says "israel is more reliable" - for now. But honestly, the reason why israel gets the support that it does is not because of the trading. It's to get a foothold over there.
Not entirely sure, were you answering to my post, or using my post to answer?
On July 25 2014 08:43 Nyxisto wrote: I just linked you a source from a UN website. Are you at least reading what I post before you reply? I didn't doubt anybody. I just don't think it's okay that the UN is so lax about having rockets stored in their official facilities.
You linked a source about empty school, putting doubt on the UN credibility in this matter and on the specific school that has been bombarded. What's the point in talking about empty school ? It is propaganda and you're part of it.
The school was not empty, as UN staff had to be evacuated, and the neighbouring schools hosted 1.5k refugees. The UN needs to keep their shit together, they simply can not have weapons stored in close proximity to so many people.
They did,they said they will control all their facilities, and they controlled the one that was bombarded by Israeli (before the attack). They now found two school with rockets, released a statement about it and evacuated the school. What should they do ?
The only thing you are doing is, something that would be unacceptable in any other conflict, putting doubt on the UN. It is something that the media, and people, only do about Israel : when the UN, or any other international agency, release a paper or the result of investigation on Israel, it is always okay to criticize it.
No, if Israeli forces deliberately attack a school and there were no military combatants or weapons in the building then it's illegitimate and needs to be condemned. What I don't do is sitting around in my room, mouth drooling, just waiting for the newest sensational headline what the IDF has done wrong now. All asymmetrical modern wars look like the conflict between Palestine and Israel, and a lot of them look even worse.
And although the Hamas is not carrying people literally around in front of them, leading members of the Hamas have repeatedly stated that civilians are not supposed to leave the bombed areas. It is also a fact that they have fired rockets out of areas that contained civilians and civil infrastructure. The fact that rockets have been found in UN buildings is yet another example of how the Hamas operates.
"No, if Israeli forces deliberately attack a school and there were no military combatants or weapons in the building then it's illegitimate and needs to be condemned"
Do you mean that there are any legitimate reasons to kill children?
On July 25 2014 08:43 Nyxisto wrote: I just linked you a source from a UN website. Are you at least reading what I post before you reply? I didn't doubt anybody. I just don't think it's okay that the UN is so lax about having rockets stored in their official facilities.
You linked a source about empty school, putting doubt on the UN credibility in this matter and on the specific school that has been bombarded. What's the point in talking about empty school ? It is propaganda and you're part of it.
The school was not empty, as UN staff had to be evacuated, and the neighbouring schools hosted 1.5k refugees. The UN needs to keep their shit together, they simply can not have weapons stored in close proximity to so many people.
They did,they said they will control all their facilities, and they controlled the one that was bombarded by Israeli (before the attack). They now found two school with rockets, released a statement about it and evacuated the school. What should they do ?
The only thing you are doing is, something that would be unacceptable in any other conflict, putting doubt on the UN. It is something that the media, and people, only do about Israel : when the UN, or any other international agency, release a paper or the result of investigation on Israel, it is always okay to criticize it.
No, if Israeli forces deliberately attack a school and there were no military combatants or weapons in the building then it's illegitimate and needs to be condemned. What I don't do is sitting around in my room, mouth drooling, just waiting for the newest sensational headline what the IDF has done wrong now. All asymmetrical modern wars look like the conflict between Palestine and Israel, and a lot of them look even worse.
And although the Hamas is not carrying people literally around in front of them, leading members of the Hamas have repeatedly stated that civilians are not supposed to leave the bombed areas. It is also a fact that they have fired rockets out of areas that contained civilians and civil infrastructure. The fact that rockets have been found in UN buildings is yet another example of how the Hamas operates.
"No, if Israeli forces deliberately attack a school and there were no military combatants or weapons in the building then it's illegitimate and needs to be condemned"
Do you mean that there are any legitimate reasons to kill children?
It's a polemical question. Short answer, Yes, if they are unavoidable and not deliberately targeted. International law reflects that too. Proportionality is a key word here. This is what Moreno-Ocampo, Chief prosecutor at the International Criminal Court had to say regarding allegations of war crimes committed by the US in Iraq
Under international humanitarian law and the Rome Statute, the death of civilians during an armed conflict, no matter how grave and regrettable, does not in itself constitute a war crime. International humanitarian law and the Rome Statute permit belligerents to carry out proportionate attacks against military objectives, even when it is known that some civilian deaths or injuries will occur. A crime occurs if there is an intentional attack directed against civilians (principle of distinction) (Article 8(2)(b)(i)) or an attack is launched on a military objective in the knowledge that the incidental civilian injuries would be clearly excessive in relation to the anticipated military advantage
Article 8(2)(b)(iv) criminalizes: Intentionally launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects or widespread, long-term and severe damage to the natural environment which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated;
On July 25 2014 08:43 Nyxisto wrote: I just linked you a source from a UN website. Are you at least reading what I post before you reply? I didn't doubt anybody. I just don't think it's okay that the UN is so lax about having rockets stored in their official facilities.
You linked a source about empty school, putting doubt on the UN credibility in this matter and on the specific school that has been bombarded. What's the point in talking about empty school ? It is propaganda and you're part of it.
The school was not empty, as UN staff had to be evacuated, and the neighbouring schools hosted 1.5k refugees. The UN needs to keep their shit together, they simply can not have weapons stored in close proximity to so many people.
They did,they said they will control all their facilities, and they controlled the one that was bombarded by Israeli (before the attack). They now found two school with rockets, released a statement about it and evacuated the school. What should they do ?
The only thing you are doing is, something that would be unacceptable in any other conflict, putting doubt on the UN. It is something that the media, and people, only do about Israel : when the UN, or any other international agency, release a paper or the result of investigation on Israel, it is always okay to criticize it.
No, if Israeli forces deliberately attack a school and there were no military combatants or weapons in the building then it's illegitimate and needs to be condemned. What I don't do is sitting around in my room, mouth drooling, just waiting for the newest sensational headline what the IDF has done wrong now. All asymmetrical modern wars look like the conflict between Palestine and Israel, and a lot of them look even worse.
And although the Hamas is not carrying people literally around in front of them, leading members of the Hamas have repeatedly stated that civilians are not supposed to leave the bombed areas. It is also a fact that they have fired rockets out of areas that contained civilians and civil infrastructure. The fact that rockets have been found in UN buildings is yet another example of how the Hamas operates.
"No, if Israeli forces deliberately attack a school and there were no military combatants or weapons in the building then it's illegitimate and needs to be condemned"
Do you mean that there are any legitimate reasons to kill children?
It's a polemical question. Short answer, Yes, if they are unavoidable and not deliberately targeted. International law reflects that too. Proportionality is a key word here. This is what Moreno-Ocampo, Chief prosecutor at the International Criminal Court had to say regarding allegations of war crimes committed by the US in Iraq
Under international humanitarian law and the Rome Statute, the death of civilians during an armed conflict, no matter how grave and regrettable, does not in itself constitute a war crime. International humanitarian law and the Rome Statute permit belligerents to carry out proportionate attacks against military objectives, even when it is known that some civilian deaths or injuries will occur. A crime occurs if there is an intentional attack directed against civilians (principle of distinction) (Article 8(2)(b)(i)) or an attack is launched on a military objective in the knowledge that the incidental civilian injuries would be clearly excessive in relation to the anticipated military advantage
Article 8(2)(b)(iv) criminalizes: Intentionally launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects or widespread, long-term and severe damage to the natural environment which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated;
"Yes, if they are unavoidable and not deliberately targeted."
But they are deliberately targeted. Israel knows that there are moslty civilians in the places they bomb. They deliberately target the place anyway hoping that it will also kill fighters and destroy weapons.
About the unavoidable, not shooting is a decent way to avoid...killing.
Israel and Palestine are both at fault. They both sit back and kill each other and cry like babies when one grows the balls to do something, whether it was the most morale thing to do or not. This is a war, and it has been going on since biblical times. The war is over the holy land, and they both think that they are entitled to it. It all goes back to the Biblical story of Ishmel and Isaac. One son that was practically ignored because the only child he really payed attention to was supposedly the miracle child to come from an 80 year old women. Thus, creating the fight for the holy land since Joseph's descendants were promised to live there by God. But I'm more on Israel's side than Palestine on this one. Neither are perfect and are major F heads, but Iv'e seen some messed up crap coming from Palestine TV show and stuff that are just horrendous.
On July 25 2014 08:43 Nyxisto wrote: I just linked you a source from a UN website. Are you at least reading what I post before you reply? I didn't doubt anybody. I just don't think it's okay that the UN is so lax about having rockets stored in their official facilities.
You linked a source about empty school, putting doubt on the UN credibility in this matter and on the specific school that has been bombarded. What's the point in talking about empty school ? It is propaganda and you're part of it.
The school was not empty, as UN staff had to be evacuated, and the neighbouring schools hosted 1.5k refugees. The UN needs to keep their shit together, they simply can not have weapons stored in close proximity to so many people.
They did,they said they will control all their facilities, and they controlled the one that was bombarded by Israeli (before the attack). They now found two school with rockets, released a statement about it and evacuated the school. What should they do ?
The only thing you are doing is, something that would be unacceptable in any other conflict, putting doubt on the UN. It is something that the media, and people, only do about Israel : when the UN, or any other international agency, release a paper or the result of investigation on Israel, it is always okay to criticize it.
No, if Israeli forces deliberately attack a school and there were no military combatants or weapons in the building then it's illegitimate and needs to be condemned. What I don't do is sitting around in my room, mouth drooling, just waiting for the newest sensational headline what the IDF has done wrong now. All asymmetrical modern wars look like the conflict between Palestine and Israel, and a lot of them look even worse.
And although the Hamas is not carrying people literally around in front of them, leading members of the Hamas have repeatedly stated that civilians are not supposed to leave the bombed areas. It is also a fact that they have fired rockets out of areas that contained civilians and civil infrastructure. The fact that rockets have been found in UN buildings is yet another example of how the Hamas operates.
"No, if Israeli forces deliberately attack a school and there were no military combatants or weapons in the building then it's illegitimate and needs to be condemned"
Do you mean that there are any legitimate reasons to kill children?
It's a polemical question. Short answer, Yes, if they are unavoidable and not deliberately targeted. International law reflects that too. Proportionality is a key word here. This is what Moreno-Ocampo, Chief prosecutor at the International Criminal Court had to say regarding allegations of war crimes committed by the US in Iraq
Under international humanitarian law and the Rome Statute, the death of civilians during an armed conflict, no matter how grave and regrettable, does not in itself constitute a war crime. International humanitarian law and the Rome Statute permit belligerents to carry out proportionate attacks against military objectives, even when it is known that some civilian deaths or injuries will occur. A crime occurs if there is an intentional attack directed against civilians (principle of distinction) (Article 8(2)(b)(i)) or an attack is launched on a military objective in the knowledge that the incidental civilian injuries would be clearly excessive in relation to the anticipated military advantage
Article 8(2)(b)(iv) criminalizes: Intentionally launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects or widespread, long-term and severe damage to the natural environment which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated;
"Yes, if they are unavoidable and not deliberately targeted."
But they are deliberately targeted. Israel knows that there are moslty civilians in the places they bomb. They deliberately target the place anyway hoping that it will also kill fighters and destroy weapons.
About the unavoidable, not shooting is a decent way to avoid...killing.
isnt it more likely "Israel knows that there are militants in the places they bomb. They target the place anyway hoping that it will minimize civilian casualty"?
im sure there are extremists in the israeli side (like in any side) doing what you're thinking, but i dearly hope they're the minority and not likely to be in power. to say israel wants to kill civilians in a way they can get away with, well, thats a leap of faith i guess.
EPT
