I'm sure the list goes on but this at least covers the basics, wouldn't you say ?
You missed the part, that Israel did everything they could to make Fatah look bad compared to the Hamas. When Fatah went into the elections promising negotiations instead of rockets, Israel did their best to make those negotiations fail. Fatah btw accepted Israels right of existence and agreed to the two state solution and borders proposed 1967. It is time for Israel to finally accept the right of existence for a palestinean state and agree to the 1967 agreement. And yes, that includes razing the few hundred settlements they build during the last decades. But all they do is playing for time, so they get more and more areas, where they can find some idiot that can claim he was born there. (because his parents were illegal settlers)
Oh and as we are at it. as Bunzi likes to point out, how every other state would response to rockets... I have the feeling, that every other nation would also respond to their neighbor establishing settlements on the wrong side of the border...
This is one of the biggest thing I have against Israel. They could have gotten peace if they supported Fatah, but no, they chose to undermine it in favor of the Hamas. Security for Israel does not mean peace, it means winning a war, and they can only wage war if the Hamas is in power.
Pretty big assumption that Israel could have gotten peace. Personally I think they will never have peace, they will always have to defend themselves. I think in the west people gravely understimate how deep the hate really runs and how little rationality there is in this conflict.
On July 25 2014 18:17 bluzi wrote: Gaza are not trying to build themselves as a country (Hamas isnt at least) , they get electricity and cement and weed from israel , they use the aid money to build 100M USD worh of tunnels , you could count the numbers of killed ppl , its 700 in 17 days , please show me another country that will have rockets flying on 70% of the population and will react in such moderation , the USA/Russia/China/ANY OTHER COUNTRY/ will have gone to ALL OUT WAR and just demolish Gaza to the ground , with tens of thousands dead.
Other countries, the civilized ones at least, would go in, take over and not kill civilians randomly. Going in does not mean you shoot at everything that moves. Demolishing Gaza to the ground is not only way to solve this problem, but it seems that is a wish of many in Israel as people like you keep coming here and telling us this. I cannot believe your mindset is either kill random civilians with rockets or kill all civilians with ground troops.
I guess Israel is like a child that has been abused by its parents and now only knows how to abuse others in turn.
OK , so you think its better for israel to conquer Gaza , and by doing so it make the citizens safer ? you realize they fight within the generall population ? there isnt heroic face 2 face combat (nor it shouldnt from their pov). taking over is not something israel should do , nor will any of the members of this thread will agree to. you can go to wiki and see that in the iraq invasion 7500 civilians died. please dont give me this bullshit civilized countries , all the greatest mankind catstrophies were done by such countries : German Natzies. Japan in china. Nuke bombing. and sooooooooooooooo many other examples.
my mind set is peace trust me , we elected left wing goverment for over a decade , but no negoationes succeded , they wanted to give away east jerusalem , all of gaza / west bank/ and more , and it didnt work. now the moderate had enough , and so the right is gaining momentum (like it happens in Gaza) , this is a shitty situation, but when it comes down to it , you guys just doesnt live here , and dont understand the situation as we do , its easy to criticize , but when your countries are getting into the slightest of conflicts ten of thousands die. Again i emphasize , in 20 days of this "war" , 700 ppl died in gaza (including Hamas activsts) , this is a low (and painful) number for such long duration of army activity. again no one is commenting on Egypt border being blocked due to terror in Sinai . and again i want to emphasize we are not shooting everything that moves , this is such a big missconception , see the numbers before you write such BS.
"you guys just doesnt live here , and dont understand the situation as we do"
It doesn't mean that the way we understand the situation is wrong though. Neither that your vision is right and objective.
"and again i want to emphasize we are not shooting everything that moves"
No course, we know. But we know as well that Tsahal killed 100 times more civilians than hamas did. In 2008-2009 it was 200 times, there's some progression.
I could get a high number of dead civilian if it could save thousands of other civilians, like shooting a plane with terrorists inside, you kill the passengers but you save the thousands of people who'd die if the plane had crash on a nuclear plant for example.
Nowaday Tsahal is killing hundreds to save few. It's a problem. It's not enough to blame Israel of extermination but way too much to consider it as a normal defense.
On July 25 2014 18:17 bluzi wrote: Gaza are not trying to build themselves as a country (Hamas isnt at least) , they get electricity and cement and weed from israel , they use the aid money to build 100M USD worh of tunnels , you could count the numbers of killed ppl , its 700 in 17 days , please show me another country that will have rockets flying on 70% of the population and will react in such moderation , the USA/Russia/China/ANY OTHER COUNTRY/ will have gone to ALL OUT WAR and just demolish Gaza to the ground , with tens of thousands dead.
Other countries, the civilized ones at least, would go in, take over and not kill civilians randomly. Going in does not mean you shoot at everything that moves. Demolishing Gaza to the ground is not only way to solve this problem, but it seems that is a wish of many in Israel as people like you keep coming here and telling us this. I cannot believe your mindset is either kill random civilians with rockets or kill all civilians with ground troops.
I guess Israel is like a child that has been abused by its parents and now only knows how to abuse others in turn.
OK , so you think its better for israel to conquer Gaza , and by doing so it make the citizens safer ? you realize they fight within the generall population ? there isnt heroic face 2 face combat (nor it shouldnt from their pov). taking over is not something israel should do , nor will any of the members of this thread will agree to. you can go to wiki and see that in the iraq invasion 7500 civilians died. please dont give me this bullshit civilized countries , all the greatest mankind catstrophies were done by such countries : German Natzies. Japan in china. Nuke bombing. and sooooooooooooooo many other examples.
my mind set is peace trust me , we elected left wing goverment for over a decade , but no negoationes succeded , they wanted to give away east jerusalem , all of gaza / west bank/ and more , and it didnt work. now the moderate had enough , and so the right is gaining momentum (like it happens in Gaza) , this is a shitty situation, but when it comes down to it , you guys just doesnt live here , and dont understand the situation as we do , its easy to criticize , but when your countries are getting into the slightest of conflicts ten of thousands die. Again i emphasize , in 20 days of this "war" , 700 ppl died in gaza (including Hamas activsts) , this is a low (and painful) number for such long duration of army activity. again no one is commenting on Egypt border being blocked due to terror in Sinai . and again i want to emphasize we are not shooting everything that moves , this is such a big missconception , see the numbers before you write such BS.
"you guys just doesnt live here , and dont understand the situation as we do"
It doesn't mean that the way we understand the situation is wrong though. Neither that your vision is right and objective.
"and again i want to emphasize we are not shooting everything that moves"
No course, we know. But we know as well that Tsahal killed 100 times more civilians than hamas did. In 2008-2009 it was 200 times, there's some progression.
I could get a high number of dead civilian if it could save thousands of other civilians, like shooting a plane with terrorists inside, you kill the passengers but you save the thousands of people who'd die if the plane had crash on a nuclear plant for example.
Nowaday Tsahal is killing hundreds to save few. It's a problem. It's not enough to blame Israel of extermination but way too much to consider it as a normal defense.
There's a problem. You can't deny it.
Hamas is only killing so few because they are not able to kill more, not because they dont want to kill more. So that comparison is pretty unfair. The tsahal you complain about is the one that is responsible for keeping hamas kill count low. At the same time hamas does its best to keep tsahal's killing of civilians high. See the difference between the two?
I'm sure the list goes on but this at least covers the basics, wouldn't you say ?
You missed the part, that Israel did everything they could to make Fatah look bad compared to the Hamas. When Fatah went into the elections promising negotiations instead of rockets, Israel did their best to make those negotiations fail. Fatah btw accepted Israels right of existence and agreed to the two state solution and borders proposed 1967. It is time for Israel to finally accept the right of existence for a palestinean state and agree to the 1967 agreement. And yes, that includes razing the few hundred settlements they build during the last decades. But all they do is playing for time, so they get more and more areas, where they can find some idiot that can claim he was born there. (because his parents were illegal settlers)
Oh and as we are at it. as Bunzi likes to point out, how every other state would response to rockets... I have the feeling, that every other nation would also respond to their neighbor establishing settlements on the wrong side of the border...
This is one of the biggest thing I have against Israel. They could have gotten peace if they supported Fatah, but no, they chose to undermine it in favor of the Hamas. Security for Israel does not mean peace, it means winning a war, and they can only wage war if the Hamas is in power.
Pretty big assumption that Israel could have gotten peace. Personally I think they will never have peace, they will always have to defend themselves. I think in the west people gravely understimate how deep the hate really runs and how little rationality there is in this conflict.
If you are going full out with that idea, short of a genocide, nothing is going to solve the situation. An irrational conflict in Northern Ireland has been improved to a point where it is almost irrelevant. Don't get me wrong, Israel/Palestine is nowhere near the same situation and requires different measures, but it tends to show that even irrational hatred can be overcome with the right will of the parts in the conflict and their neighboring states.
A big problem that can throw a wrench in any kind of peace-effort between Palestine and Israel is the instability in Lebanon, Syria and Iraq and the sympathy and support for Hamas from those areas, but that is another issue.
I'm sure the list goes on but this at least covers the basics, wouldn't you say ?
You missed the part, that Israel did everything they could to make Fatah look bad compared to the Hamas. When Fatah went into the elections promising negotiations instead of rockets, Israel did their best to make those negotiations fail. Fatah btw accepted Israels right of existence and agreed to the two state solution and borders proposed 1967. It is time for Israel to finally accept the right of existence for a palestinean state and agree to the 1967 agreement. And yes, that includes razing the few hundred settlements they build during the last decades. But all they do is playing for time, so they get more and more areas, where they can find some idiot that can claim he was born there. (because his parents were illegal settlers)
Oh and as we are at it. as Bunzi likes to point out, how every other state would response to rockets... I have the feeling, that every other nation would also respond to their neighbor establishing settlements on the wrong side of the border...
This is one of the biggest thing I have against Israel. They could have gotten peace if they supported Fatah, but no, they chose to undermine it in favor of the Hamas. Security for Israel does not mean peace, it means winning a war, and they can only wage war if the Hamas is in power.
Pretty big assumption that Israel could have gotten peace. Personally I think they will never have peace, they will always have to defend themselves. I think in the west people gravely understimate how deep the hate really runs and how little rationality there is in this conflict.
If you are going full out with that idea, short of a genocide, nothing is going to solve the situation. An irrational conflict in Northern Ireland has been improved to a point where it is almost irrelevant. Don't get me wrong, Israel/Palestine is nowhere near the same situation and requires different measures, but it tends to show that even irrational hatred can be overcome with the right will of the parts in the conflict and their neighboring states.
A big problem that can throw a wrench in any kind of peace-effort between Palestine and Israel is the instability in Lebanon, Syria and Iraq and the sympathy and support for Hamas from those areas, but that is another issue.
You forgot the hundreds of years of bloody conflict. That analogy is not good in any respect, to be frank.
On July 25 2014 18:17 bluzi wrote: Gaza are not trying to build themselves as a country (Hamas isnt at least) , they get electricity and cement and weed from israel , they use the aid money to build 100M USD worh of tunnels , you could count the numbers of killed ppl , its 700 in 17 days , please show me another country that will have rockets flying on 70% of the population and will react in such moderation , the USA/Russia/China/ANY OTHER COUNTRY/ will have gone to ALL OUT WAR and just demolish Gaza to the ground , with tens of thousands dead.
Other countries, the civilized ones at least, would go in, take over and not kill civilians randomly. Going in does not mean you shoot at everything that moves. Demolishing Gaza to the ground is not only way to solve this problem, but it seems that is a wish of many in Israel as people like you keep coming here and telling us this. I cannot believe your mindset is either kill random civilians with rockets or kill all civilians with ground troops.
I guess Israel is like a child that has been abused by its parents and now only knows how to abuse others in turn.
OK , so you think its better for israel to conquer Gaza , and by doing so it make the citizens safer ? you realize they fight within the generall population ? there isnt heroic face 2 face combat (nor it shouldnt from their pov). taking over is not something israel should do , nor will any of the members of this thread will agree to. you can go to wiki and see that in the iraq invasion 7500 civilians died. please dont give me this bullshit civilized countries , all the greatest mankind catstrophies were done by such countries : German Natzies. Japan in china. Nuke bombing. and sooooooooooooooo many other examples.
my mind set is peace trust me , we elected left wing goverment for over a decade , but no negoationes succeded , they wanted to give away east jerusalem , all of gaza / west bank/ and more , and it didnt work. now the moderate had enough , and so the right is gaining momentum (like it happens in Gaza) , this is a shitty situation, but when it comes down to it , you guys just doesnt live here , and dont understand the situation as we do , its easy to criticize , but when your countries are getting into the slightest of conflicts ten of thousands die. Again i emphasize , in 20 days of this "war" , 700 ppl died in gaza (including Hamas activsts) , this is a low (and painful) number for such long duration of army activity. again no one is commenting on Egypt border being blocked due to terror in Sinai . and again i want to emphasize we are not shooting everything that moves , this is such a big missconception , see the numbers before you write such BS.
"you guys just doesnt live here , and dont understand the situation as we do"
It doesn't mean that the way we understand the situation is wrong though. Neither that your vision is right and objective.
"and again i want to emphasize we are not shooting everything that moves"
No course, we know. But we know as well that Tsahal killed 100 times more civilians than hamas did. In 2008-2009 it was 200 times, there's some progression.
I could get a high number of dead civilian if it could save thousands of other civilians, like shooting a plane with terrorists inside, you kill the passengers but you save the thousands of people who'd die if the plane had crash on a nuclear plant for example.
Nowaday Tsahal is killing hundreds to save few. It's a problem. It's not enough to blame Israel of extermination but way too much to consider it as a normal defense.
There's a problem. You can't deny it.
Hamas is only killing so few because they are not able to kill more, not because they dont want to kill more. So that comparison is pretty unfair. The tsahal you complain about is the one that is responsible for keeping hamas kill count low. At the same time hamas does its best to keep tsahal's killing of civilians high. See the difference between the two?
To be honest, I really don't buy the argument that the civilian casuality numbers tell the whole story. The Israeli civilian casuality count is low because Israel has devoted a lot of time and money to set up their Iron Dome missile defence. Without it, rockets would be raining down on Israeli civilians too.
The shelling of boys on a beach, that's simply unacceptable though. If Israel wants any sympathy at all, they have to address these incidents decisively and publicly.
On July 25 2014 18:17 bluzi wrote: Gaza are not trying to build themselves as a country (Hamas isnt at least) , they get electricity and cement and weed from israel , they use the aid money to build 100M USD worh of tunnels , you could count the numbers of killed ppl , its 700 in 17 days , please show me another country that will have rockets flying on 70% of the population and will react in such moderation , the USA/Russia/China/ANY OTHER COUNTRY/ will have gone to ALL OUT WAR and just demolish Gaza to the ground , with tens of thousands dead.
Other countries, the civilized ones at least, would go in, take over and not kill civilians randomly. Going in does not mean you shoot at everything that moves. Demolishing Gaza to the ground is not only way to solve this problem, but it seems that is a wish of many in Israel as people like you keep coming here and telling us this. I cannot believe your mindset is either kill random civilians with rockets or kill all civilians with ground troops.
I guess Israel is like a child that has been abused by its parents and now only knows how to abuse others in turn.
OK , so you think its better for israel to conquer Gaza , and by doing so it make the citizens safer ? you realize they fight within the generall population ? there isnt heroic face 2 face combat (nor it shouldnt from their pov). taking over is not something israel should do , nor will any of the members of this thread will agree to. you can go to wiki and see that in the iraq invasion 7500 civilians died. please dont give me this bullshit civilized countries , all the greatest mankind catstrophies were done by such countries : German Natzies. Japan in china. Nuke bombing. and sooooooooooooooo many other examples.
my mind set is peace trust me , we elected left wing goverment for over a decade , but no negoationes succeded , they wanted to give away east jerusalem , all of gaza / west bank/ and more , and it didnt work. now the moderate had enough , and so the right is gaining momentum (like it happens in Gaza) , this is a shitty situation, but when it comes down to it , you guys just doesnt live here , and dont understand the situation as we do , its easy to criticize , but when your countries are getting into the slightest of conflicts ten of thousands die. Again i emphasize , in 20 days of this "war" , 700 ppl died in gaza (including Hamas activsts) , this is a low (and painful) number for such long duration of army activity. again no one is commenting on Egypt border being blocked due to terror in Sinai . and again i want to emphasize we are not shooting everything that moves , this is such a big missconception , see the numbers before you write such BS.
"you guys just doesnt live here , and dont understand the situation as we do"
It doesn't mean that the way we understand the situation is wrong though. Neither that your vision is right and objective.
"and again i want to emphasize we are not shooting everything that moves"
No course, we know. But we know as well that Tsahal killed 100 times more civilians than hamas did. In 2008-2009 it was 200 times, there's some progression.
I could get a high number of dead civilian if it could save thousands of other civilians, like shooting a plane with terrorists inside, you kill the passengers but you save the thousands of people who'd die if the plane had crash on a nuclear plant for example.
Nowaday Tsahal is killing hundreds to save few. It's a problem. It's not enough to blame Israel of extermination but way too much to consider it as a normal defense.
There's a problem. You can't deny it.
Hamas is only killing so few because they are not able to kill more, not because they dont want to kill more. So that comparison is pretty unfair. The tsahal you complain about is the one that is responsible for keeping hamas kill count low. At the same time hamas does its best to keep tsahal's killing of civilians high. See the difference between the two?
If Tsahal is so efficient to defend Israel, why attacking? It seems that Tsahal has the power to kill less as well.
"See the difference between the two?"
Honestly, less and less.
On the one hand, I've a terrorist group who's known for its hate of Israel and jews. On the other hand, I've a democracy who has a very good defensive system, more money, more power, more powerful friends, who knows that the opponent is not a huge threat and that attacking will kill hundreds of innocent people but...attacks anyway.
I'm sure the list goes on but this at least covers the basics, wouldn't you say ?
You missed the part, that Israel did everything they could to make Fatah look bad compared to the Hamas. When Fatah went into the elections promising negotiations instead of rockets, Israel did their best to make those negotiations fail. Fatah btw accepted Israels right of existence and agreed to the two state solution and borders proposed 1967. It is time for Israel to finally accept the right of existence for a palestinean state and agree to the 1967 agreement. And yes, that includes razing the few hundred settlements they build during the last decades. But all they do is playing for time, so they get more and more areas, where they can find some idiot that can claim he was born there. (because his parents were illegal settlers)
Oh and as we are at it. as Bunzi likes to point out, how every other state would response to rockets... I have the feeling, that every other nation would also respond to their neighbor establishing settlements on the wrong side of the border...
This is one of the biggest thing I have against Israel. They could have gotten peace if they supported Fatah, but no, they chose to undermine it in favor of the Hamas. Security for Israel does not mean peace, it means winning a war, and they can only wage war if the Hamas is in power.
Pretty big assumption that Israel could have gotten peace. Personally I think they will never have peace, they will always have to defend themselves. I think in the west people gravely understimate how deep the hate really runs and how little rationality there is in this conflict.
Maybe not peace. It's still telling if the israelians "chose hamas" over fatah. Because as we all know, with hamas, there actually will never be peace. Not even remotely.
If i run against the same wall over and over again, i try to run in a different direction. I might hit a wall there too, sure, but chances are that there's a way out.
If i still run against the same wall after 10 years, well.. One could think that i want to run against that wall.
On July 25 2014 18:17 bluzi wrote: Gaza are not trying to build themselves as a country (Hamas isnt at least) , they get electricity and cement and weed from israel , they use the aid money to build 100M USD worh of tunnels , you could count the numbers of killed ppl , its 700 in 17 days , please show me another country that will have rockets flying on 70% of the population and will react in such moderation , the USA/Russia/China/ANY OTHER COUNTRY/ will have gone to ALL OUT WAR and just demolish Gaza to the ground , with tens of thousands dead.
Other countries, the civilized ones at least, would go in, take over and not kill civilians randomly. Going in does not mean you shoot at everything that moves. Demolishing Gaza to the ground is not only way to solve this problem, but it seems that is a wish of many in Israel as people like you keep coming here and telling us this. I cannot believe your mindset is either kill random civilians with rockets or kill all civilians with ground troops.
I guess Israel is like a child that has been abused by its parents and now only knows how to abuse others in turn.
OK , so you think its better for israel to conquer Gaza , and by doing so it make the citizens safer ? you realize they fight within the generall population ? there isnt heroic face 2 face combat (nor it shouldnt from their pov). taking over is not something israel should do , nor will any of the members of this thread will agree to. you can go to wiki and see that in the iraq invasion 7500 civilians died. please dont give me this bullshit civilized countries , all the greatest mankind catstrophies were done by such countries : German Natzies. Japan in china. Nuke bombing. and sooooooooooooooo many other examples.
my mind set is peace trust me , we elected left wing goverment for over a decade , but no negoationes succeded , they wanted to give away east jerusalem , all of gaza / west bank/ and more , and it didnt work. now the moderate had enough , and so the right is gaining momentum (like it happens in Gaza) , this is a shitty situation, but when it comes down to it , you guys just doesnt live here , and dont understand the situation as we do , its easy to criticize , but when your countries are getting into the slightest of conflicts ten of thousands die. Again i emphasize , in 20 days of this "war" , 700 ppl died in gaza (including Hamas activsts) , this is a low (and painful) number for such long duration of army activity. again no one is commenting on Egypt border being blocked due to terror in Sinai . and again i want to emphasize we are not shooting everything that moves , this is such a big missconception , see the numbers before you write such BS.
"you guys just doesnt live here , and dont understand the situation as we do"
It doesn't mean that the way we understand the situation is wrong though. Neither that your vision is right and objective.
"and again i want to emphasize we are not shooting everything that moves"
No course, we know. But we know as well that Tsahal killed 100 times more civilians than hamas did. In 2008-2009 it was 200 times, there's some progression.
I could get a high number of dead civilian if it could save thousands of other civilians, like shooting a plane with terrorists inside, you kill the passengers but you save the thousands of people who'd die if the plane had crash on a nuclear plant for example.
Nowaday Tsahal is killing hundreds to save few. It's a problem. It's not enough to blame Israel of extermination but way too much to consider it as a normal defense.
There's a problem. You can't deny it.
Hamas is only killing so few because they are not able to kill more, not because they dont want to kill more. So that comparison is pretty unfair. The tsahal you complain about is the one that is responsible for keeping hamas kill count low. At the same time hamas does its best to keep tsahal's killing of civilians high. See the difference between the two?
If Tsahal is so efficient to defend Israel, why attacking? It seems that Tsahal has the power to kill less as well.
"See the difference between the two?"
Honestly, less and less.
On the one hand, I've a terrorist group who's known for its hate of Israel and jews. On the other hand, I've a democracy who has a very good defensive system, more money, more power, more powerful friends, who knows that the opponent is not a huge threat and that attacking will kill hundreds of innocent people but...attacks anyway.
Why?
The fact that you're wearing a bulletproof vest and carrying an assault rifle isn't sufficient reason to let people fire handguns at you from some distance away. That metaphorical bulletproof vest was the only thing standing in between over a thousand civilians (if you count one casualty per rocket) and their deaths. Intent matters too.
On July 25 2014 18:17 bluzi wrote: Gaza are not trying to build themselves as a country (Hamas isnt at least) , they get electricity and cement and weed from israel , they use the aid money to build 100M USD worh of tunnels , you could count the numbers of killed ppl , its 700 in 17 days , please show me another country that will have rockets flying on 70% of the population and will react in such moderation , the USA/Russia/China/ANY OTHER COUNTRY/ will have gone to ALL OUT WAR and just demolish Gaza to the ground , with tens of thousands dead.
Other countries, the civilized ones at least, would go in, take over and not kill civilians randomly. Going in does not mean you shoot at everything that moves. Demolishing Gaza to the ground is not only way to solve this problem, but it seems that is a wish of many in Israel as people like you keep coming here and telling us this. I cannot believe your mindset is either kill random civilians with rockets or kill all civilians with ground troops.
I guess Israel is like a child that has been abused by its parents and now only knows how to abuse others in turn.
OK , so you think its better for israel to conquer Gaza , and by doing so it make the citizens safer ? you realize they fight within the generall population ? there isnt heroic face 2 face combat (nor it shouldnt from their pov). taking over is not something israel should do , nor will any of the members of this thread will agree to. you can go to wiki and see that in the iraq invasion 7500 civilians died. please dont give me this bullshit civilized countries , all the greatest mankind catstrophies were done by such countries : German Natzies. Japan in china. Nuke bombing. and sooooooooooooooo many other examples.
my mind set is peace trust me , we elected left wing goverment for over a decade , but no negoationes succeded , they wanted to give away east jerusalem , all of gaza / west bank/ and more , and it didnt work. now the moderate had enough , and so the right is gaining momentum (like it happens in Gaza) , this is a shitty situation, but when it comes down to it , you guys just doesnt live here , and dont understand the situation as we do , its easy to criticize , but when your countries are getting into the slightest of conflicts ten of thousands die. Again i emphasize , in 20 days of this "war" , 700 ppl died in gaza (including Hamas activsts) , this is a low (and painful) number for such long duration of army activity. again no one is commenting on Egypt border being blocked due to terror in Sinai . and again i want to emphasize we are not shooting everything that moves , this is such a big missconception , see the numbers before you write such BS.
"you guys just doesnt live here , and dont understand the situation as we do"
It doesn't mean that the way we understand the situation is wrong though. Neither that your vision is right and objective.
"and again i want to emphasize we are not shooting everything that moves"
No course, we know. But we know as well that Tsahal killed 100 times more civilians than hamas did. In 2008-2009 it was 200 times, there's some progression.
I could get a high number of dead civilian if it could save thousands of other civilians, like shooting a plane with terrorists inside, you kill the passengers but you save the thousands of people who'd die if the plane had crash on a nuclear plant for example.
Nowaday Tsahal is killing hundreds to save few. It's a problem. It's not enough to blame Israel of extermination but way too much to consider it as a normal defense.
There's a problem. You can't deny it.
Hamas is only killing so few because they are not able to kill more, not because they dont want to kill more. So that comparison is pretty unfair. The tsahal you complain about is the one that is responsible for keeping hamas kill count low. At the same time hamas does its best to keep tsahal's killing of civilians high. See the difference between the two?
If Tsahal is so efficient to defend Israel, why attacking? It seems that Tsahal has the power to kill less as well.
"See the difference between the two?"
Honestly, less and less.
On the one hand, I've a terrorist group who's known for its hate of Israel and jews. On the other hand, I've a democracy who has a very good defensive system, more money, more power, more powerful friends, who knows that the opponent is not a huge threat and that attacking will kill hundreds of innocent people but...attacks anyway.
Why?
The fact that you're wearing a bulletproof vest and carrying an assault rifle isn't sufficient reason to let people fire handguns at you from some distance away. That metaphorical bulletproof vest was the only thing standing in between over a thousand civilians (if you count one casualty per rocket) and their deaths. Intent matters too.
Of course. But a bulletproof vest give you the choice to shoot (or not) considering you have not much risk to be killed, even by someone who really want to kill you.
"a thousand civilians (if you count one casualty per rocket)"
Except is't far to be one casualty per rocket, it's 214 rockets for 3 casualty in 2014, helped by a gaz station randomly hit.
On July 25 2014 18:17 bluzi wrote: Gaza are not trying to build themselves as a country (Hamas isnt at least) , they get electricity and cement and weed from israel , they use the aid money to build 100M USD worh of tunnels , you could count the numbers of killed ppl , its 700 in 17 days , please show me another country that will have rockets flying on 70% of the population and will react in such moderation , the USA/Russia/China/ANY OTHER COUNTRY/ will have gone to ALL OUT WAR and just demolish Gaza to the ground , with tens of thousands dead.
Other countries, the civilized ones at least, would go in, take over and not kill civilians randomly. Going in does not mean you shoot at everything that moves. Demolishing Gaza to the ground is not only way to solve this problem, but it seems that is a wish of many in Israel as people like you keep coming here and telling us this. I cannot believe your mindset is either kill random civilians with rockets or kill all civilians with ground troops.
I guess Israel is like a child that has been abused by its parents and now only knows how to abuse others in turn.
OK , so you think its better for israel to conquer Gaza , and by doing so it make the citizens safer ? you realize they fight within the generall population ? there isnt heroic face 2 face combat (nor it shouldnt from their pov). taking over is not something israel should do , nor will any of the members of this thread will agree to. you can go to wiki and see that in the iraq invasion 7500 civilians died. please dont give me this bullshit civilized countries , all the greatest mankind catstrophies were done by such countries : German Natzies. Japan in china. Nuke bombing. and sooooooooooooooo many other examples.
my mind set is peace trust me , we elected left wing goverment for over a decade , but no negoationes succeded , they wanted to give away east jerusalem , all of gaza / west bank/ and more , and it didnt work. now the moderate had enough , and so the right is gaining momentum (like it happens in Gaza) , this is a shitty situation, but when it comes down to it , you guys just doesnt live here , and dont understand the situation as we do , its easy to criticize , but when your countries are getting into the slightest of conflicts ten of thousands die. Again i emphasize , in 20 days of this "war" , 700 ppl died in gaza (including Hamas activsts) , this is a low (and painful) number for such long duration of army activity. again no one is commenting on Egypt border being blocked due to terror in Sinai . and again i want to emphasize we are not shooting everything that moves , this is such a big missconception , see the numbers before you write such BS.
"you guys just doesnt live here , and dont understand the situation as we do"
It doesn't mean that the way we understand the situation is wrong though. Neither that your vision is right and objective.
"and again i want to emphasize we are not shooting everything that moves"
No course, we know. But we know as well that Tsahal killed 100 times more civilians than hamas did. In 2008-2009 it was 200 times, there's some progression.
I could get a high number of dead civilian if it could save thousands of other civilians, like shooting a plane with terrorists inside, you kill the passengers but you save the thousands of people who'd die if the plane had crash on a nuclear plant for example.
Nowaday Tsahal is killing hundreds to save few. It's a problem. It's not enough to blame Israel of extermination but way too much to consider it as a normal defense.
There's a problem. You can't deny it.
Hamas is only killing so few because they are not able to kill more, not because they dont want to kill more. So that comparison is pretty unfair. The tsahal you complain about is the one that is responsible for keeping hamas kill count low. At the same time hamas does its best to keep tsahal's killing of civilians high. See the difference between the two?
If Tsahal is so efficient to defend Israel, why attacking? It seems that Tsahal has the power to kill less as well.
"See the difference between the two?"
Honestly, less and less.
On the one hand, I've a terrorist group who's known for its hate of Israel and jews. On the other hand, I've a democracy who has a very good defensive system, more money, more power, more powerful friends, who knows that the opponent is not a huge threat and that attacking will kill hundreds of innocent people but...attacks anyway.
Why?
The fact that you're wearing a bulletproof vest and carrying an assault rifle isn't sufficient reason to let people fire handguns at you from some distance away. That metaphorical bulletproof vest was the only thing standing in between over a thousand civilians (if you count one casualty per rocket) and their deaths. Intent matters too.
Of course. But a bulletproof vest give you the choice to shoot (or not) considering you have not much risk to be killed, even by someone who really want to kill you.
"a thousand civilians (if you count one casualty per rocket)"
Except is't far to be one casualty per rocket, it's 214 rockets for 3 casualty in 2014, helped by a gaz station randomly hit.
but if those shots keep you from sleeping and having a normal life without going into a shelter multiple times a day, you will want to get rid of them, with or without vest. And yes, early warning and people stopping everything they are doing and going inside shelters is part of why there have been so casualties. Also don't forget, Israel is burning through tons of money on the rocket defense system. They can't reasonably just keep it up 24/7 without at least trying to reduce the ridiculous amounts of rockets fired, even with american money helping them a lot.
What s keeping israel from having a normal life is their colonialism, the brutalisation and murder of arabic populations, and their unwillingness to make peace.
I'm sure the list goes on but this at least covers the basics, wouldn't you say ?
You missed the part, that Israel did everything they could to make Fatah look bad compared to the Hamas. When Fatah went into the elections promising negotiations instead of rockets, Israel did their best to make those negotiations fail. Fatah btw accepted Israels right of existence and agreed to the two state solution and borders proposed 1967. It is time for Israel to finally accept the right of existence for a palestinean state and agree to the 1967 agreement. And yes, that includes razing the few hundred settlements they build during the last decades. But all they do is playing for time, so they get more and more areas, where they can find some idiot that can claim he was born there. (because his parents were illegal settlers)
Oh and as we are at it. as Bunzi likes to point out, how every other state would response to rockets... I have the feeling, that every other nation would also respond to their neighbor establishing settlements on the wrong side of the border...
This is one of the biggest thing I have against Israel. They could have gotten peace if they supported Fatah, but no, they chose to undermine it in favor of the Hamas. Security for Israel does not mean peace, it means winning a war, and they can only wage war if the Hamas is in power.
Pretty big assumption that Israel could have gotten peace. Personally I think they will never have peace, they will always have to defend themselves. I think in the west people gravely understimate how deep the hate really runs and how little rationality there is in this conflict.
If you are going full out with that idea, short of a genocide, nothing is going to solve the situation. An irrational conflict in Northern Ireland has been improved to a point where it is almost irrelevant. Don't get me wrong, Israel/Palestine is nowhere near the same situation and requires different measures, but it tends to show that even irrational hatred can be overcome with the right will of the parts in the conflict and their neighboring states.
A big problem that can throw a wrench in any kind of peace-effort between Palestine and Israel is the instability in Lebanon, Syria and Iraq and the sympathy and support for Hamas from those areas, but that is another issue.
You forgot the hundreds of years of bloody conflict. That analogy is not good in any respect, to be frank.
This "hundred of years of bloody conflict never existed. What Jewish communities were here beforehand coexisted with the Muslims for 1200 years till 66 years ago when the Zionists and their superior military coordination and equipment took over the area.
On July 25 2014 18:17 bluzi wrote: Gaza are not trying to build themselves as a country (Hamas isnt at least) , they get electricity and cement and weed from israel , they use the aid money to build 100M USD worh of tunnels , you could count the numbers of killed ppl , its 700 in 17 days , please show me another country that will have rockets flying on 70% of the population and will react in such moderation , the USA/Russia/China/ANY OTHER COUNTRY/ will have gone to ALL OUT WAR and just demolish Gaza to the ground , with tens of thousands dead.
Other countries, the civilized ones at least, would go in, take over and not kill civilians randomly. Going in does not mean you shoot at everything that moves. Demolishing Gaza to the ground is not only way to solve this problem, but it seems that is a wish of many in Israel as people like you keep coming here and telling us this. I cannot believe your mindset is either kill random civilians with rockets or kill all civilians with ground troops.
I guess Israel is like a child that has been abused by its parents and now only knows how to abuse others in turn.
OK , so you think its better for israel to conquer Gaza , and by doing so it make the citizens safer ? you realize they fight within the generall population ? there isnt heroic face 2 face combat (nor it shouldnt from their pov). taking over is not something israel should do , nor will any of the members of this thread will agree to. you can go to wiki and see that in the iraq invasion 7500 civilians died. please dont give me this bullshit civilized countries , all the greatest mankind catstrophies were done by such countries : German Natzies. Japan in china. Nuke bombing. and sooooooooooooooo many other examples.
my mind set is peace trust me , we elected left wing goverment for over a decade , but no negoationes succeded , they wanted to give away east jerusalem , all of gaza / west bank/ and more , and it didnt work. now the moderate had enough , and so the right is gaining momentum (like it happens in Gaza) , this is a shitty situation, but when it comes down to it , you guys just doesnt live here , and dont understand the situation as we do , its easy to criticize , but when your countries are getting into the slightest of conflicts ten of thousands die. Again i emphasize , in 20 days of this "war" , 700 ppl died in gaza (including Hamas activsts) , this is a low (and painful) number for such long duration of army activity. again no one is commenting on Egypt border being blocked due to terror in Sinai . and again i want to emphasize we are not shooting everything that moves , this is such a big missconception , see the numbers before you write such BS.
"you guys just doesnt live here , and dont understand the situation as we do"
It doesn't mean that the way we understand the situation is wrong though. Neither that your vision is right and objective.
"and again i want to emphasize we are not shooting everything that moves"
No course, we know. But we know as well that Tsahal killed 100 times more civilians than hamas did. In 2008-2009 it was 200 times, there's some progression.
I could get a high number of dead civilian if it could save thousands of other civilians, like shooting a plane with terrorists inside, you kill the passengers but you save the thousands of people who'd die if the plane had crash on a nuclear plant for example.
Nowaday Tsahal is killing hundreds to save few. It's a problem. It's not enough to blame Israel of extermination but way too much to consider it as a normal defense.
There's a problem. You can't deny it.
Hamas is only killing so few because they are not able to kill more, not because they dont want to kill more. So that comparison is pretty unfair. The tsahal you complain about is the one that is responsible for keeping hamas kill count low. At the same time hamas does its best to keep tsahal's killing of civilians high. See the difference between the two?
If Tsahal is so efficient to defend Israel, why attacking? It seems that Tsahal has the power to kill less as well.
"See the difference between the two?"
Honestly, less and less.
On the one hand, I've a terrorist group who's known for its hate of Israel and jews. On the other hand, I've a democracy who has a very good defensive system, more money, more power, more powerful friends, who knows that the opponent is not a huge threat and that attacking will kill hundreds of innocent people but...attacks anyway.
Why?
The fact that you're wearing a bulletproof vest and carrying an assault rifle isn't sufficient reason to let people fire handguns at you from some distance away. That metaphorical bulletproof vest was the only thing standing in between over a thousand civilians (if you count one casualty per rocket) and their deaths. Intent matters too.
Of course. But a bulletproof vest give you the choice to shoot (or not) considering you have not much risk to be killed, even by someone who really want to kill you.
"a thousand civilians (if you count one casualty per rocket)"
Except is't far to be one casualty per rocket, it's 214 rockets for 3 casualty in 2014, helped by a gaz station randomly hit.
but if those shots keep you from sleeping and having a normal life without going into a shelter multiple times a day, you will want to get rid of them, with or without vest. And yes, early warning and people stopping everything they are doing and going inside shelters is part of why there have been so casualties. Also don't forget, Israel is burning through tons of money on the rocket defense system. They can't reasonably just keep it up 24/7 without at least trying to reduce the ridiculous amounts of rockets fired, even with american money helping them a lot.
Somehow a lack of sleep and going to shelters multiple times a day doesn't quite compare to being physically shot and bombed without shelter. It's nice to have your early warning and bomb shelters isn't it? Now compare your situation with the Gazans. Trying to induce sympathy when your targets are facing far far worse on a much larger scale is just odd.
I'm sure the list goes on but this at least covers the basics, wouldn't you say ?
You missed the part, that Israel did everything they could to make Fatah look bad compared to the Hamas. When Fatah went into the elections promising negotiations instead of rockets, Israel did their best to make those negotiations fail. Fatah btw accepted Israels right of existence and agreed to the two state solution and borders proposed 1967. It is time for Israel to finally accept the right of existence for a palestinean state and agree to the 1967 agreement. And yes, that includes razing the few hundred settlements they build during the last decades. But all they do is playing for time, so they get more and more areas, where they can find some idiot that can claim he was born there. (because his parents were illegal settlers)
Oh and as we are at it. as Bunzi likes to point out, how every other state would response to rockets... I have the feeling, that every other nation would also respond to their neighbor establishing settlements on the wrong side of the border...
This is one of the biggest thing I have against Israel. They could have gotten peace if they supported Fatah, but no, they chose to undermine it in favor of the Hamas. Security for Israel does not mean peace, it means winning a war, and they can only wage war if the Hamas is in power.
Pretty big assumption that Israel could have gotten peace. Personally I think they will never have peace, they will always have to defend themselves. I think in the west people gravely understimate how deep the hate really runs and how little rationality there is in this conflict.
If you are going full out with that idea, short of a genocide, nothing is going to solve the situation. An irrational conflict in Northern Ireland has been improved to a point where it is almost irrelevant. Don't get me wrong, Israel/Palestine is nowhere near the same situation and requires different measures, but it tends to show that even irrational hatred can be overcome with the right will of the parts in the conflict and their neighboring states.
A big problem that can throw a wrench in any kind of peace-effort between Palestine and Israel is the instability in Lebanon, Syria and Iraq and the sympathy and support for Hamas from those areas, but that is another issue.
You forgot the hundreds of years of bloody conflict. That analogy is not good in any respect, to be frank.
This "hundred of years of bloody conflict never existed. What Jewish communities were here beforehand coexisted with the Muslims for 1200 years till 66 years ago when the Zionists and their superior military coordination and equipment took over the area.
On July 25 2014 18:17 bluzi wrote: Gaza are not trying to build themselves as a country (Hamas isnt at least) , they get electricity and cement and weed from israel , they use the aid money to build 100M USD worh of tunnels , you could count the numbers of killed ppl , its 700 in 17 days , please show me another country that will have rockets flying on 70% of the population and will react in such moderation , the USA/Russia/China/ANY OTHER COUNTRY/ will have gone to ALL OUT WAR and just demolish Gaza to the ground , with tens of thousands dead.
Other countries, the civilized ones at least, would go in, take over and not kill civilians randomly. Going in does not mean you shoot at everything that moves. Demolishing Gaza to the ground is not only way to solve this problem, but it seems that is a wish of many in Israel as people like you keep coming here and telling us this. I cannot believe your mindset is either kill random civilians with rockets or kill all civilians with ground troops.
I guess Israel is like a child that has been abused by its parents and now only knows how to abuse others in turn.
OK , so you think its better for israel to conquer Gaza , and by doing so it make the citizens safer ? you realize they fight within the generall population ? there isnt heroic face 2 face combat (nor it shouldnt from their pov). taking over is not something israel should do , nor will any of the members of this thread will agree to. you can go to wiki and see that in the iraq invasion 7500 civilians died. please dont give me this bullshit civilized countries , all the greatest mankind catstrophies were done by such countries : German Natzies. Japan in china. Nuke bombing. and sooooooooooooooo many other examples.
my mind set is peace trust me , we elected left wing goverment for over a decade , but no negoationes succeded , they wanted to give away east jerusalem , all of gaza / west bank/ and more , and it didnt work. now the moderate had enough , and so the right is gaining momentum (like it happens in Gaza) , this is a shitty situation, but when it comes down to it , you guys just doesnt live here , and dont understand the situation as we do , its easy to criticize , but when your countries are getting into the slightest of conflicts ten of thousands die. Again i emphasize , in 20 days of this "war" , 700 ppl died in gaza (including Hamas activsts) , this is a low (and painful) number for such long duration of army activity. again no one is commenting on Egypt border being blocked due to terror in Sinai . and again i want to emphasize we are not shooting everything that moves , this is such a big missconception , see the numbers before you write such BS.
"you guys just doesnt live here , and dont understand the situation as we do"
It doesn't mean that the way we understand the situation is wrong though. Neither that your vision is right and objective.
"and again i want to emphasize we are not shooting everything that moves"
No course, we know. But we know as well that Tsahal killed 100 times more civilians than hamas did. In 2008-2009 it was 200 times, there's some progression.
I could get a high number of dead civilian if it could save thousands of other civilians, like shooting a plane with terrorists inside, you kill the passengers but you save the thousands of people who'd die if the plane had crash on a nuclear plant for example.
Nowaday Tsahal is killing hundreds to save few. It's a problem. It's not enough to blame Israel of extermination but way too much to consider it as a normal defense.
There's a problem. You can't deny it.
Hamas is only killing so few because they are not able to kill more, not because they dont want to kill more. So that comparison is pretty unfair. The tsahal you complain about is the one that is responsible for keeping hamas kill count low. At the same time hamas does its best to keep tsahal's killing of civilians high. See the difference between the two?
If Tsahal is so efficient to defend Israel, why attacking? It seems that Tsahal has the power to kill less as well.
"See the difference between the two?"
Honestly, less and less.
On the one hand, I've a terrorist group who's known for its hate of Israel and jews. On the other hand, I've a democracy who has a very good defensive system, more money, more power, more powerful friends, who knows that the opponent is not a huge threat and that attacking will kill hundreds of innocent people but...attacks anyway.
Why?
The fact that you're wearing a bulletproof vest and carrying an assault rifle isn't sufficient reason to let people fire handguns at you from some distance away. That metaphorical bulletproof vest was the only thing standing in between over a thousand civilians (if you count one casualty per rocket) and their deaths. Intent matters too.
Of course. But a bulletproof vest give you the choice to shoot (or not) considering you have not much risk to be killed, even by someone who really want to kill you.
"a thousand civilians (if you count one casualty per rocket)"
Except is't far to be one casualty per rocket, it's 214 rockets for 3 casualty in 2014, helped by a gaz station randomly hit.
but if those shots keep you from sleeping and having a normal life without going into a shelter multiple times a day, you will want to get rid of them, with or without vest. And yes, early warning and people stopping everything they are doing and going inside shelters is part of why there have been so casualties. Also don't forget, Israel is burning through tons of money on the rocket defense system. They can't reasonably just keep it up 24/7 without at least trying to reduce the ridiculous amounts of rockets fired, even with american money helping them a lot.
Somehow a lack of sleep and going to shelters multiple times a day doesn't quite compare to being physically shot and bombed without shelter. It's nice to have your early warning and bomb shelters isn't it? Now compare your situation with the Gazans. Trying to induce sympathy when your targets are facing far far worse on a much larger scale is just odd.
I was referencing the hundreds of years of bloody conflict in Ireland, but thanks for trying. That you don't seem to know what Mandatory Palestine is ends up being icing on the cake.
On July 25 2014 08:43 Nyxisto wrote: I just linked you a source from a UN website. Are you at least reading what I post before you reply? I didn't doubt anybody. I just don't think it's okay that the UN is so lax about having rockets stored in their official facilities.
You linked a source about empty school, putting doubt on the UN credibility in this matter and on the specific school that has been bombarded. What's the point in talking about empty school ? It is propaganda and you're part of it.
The school was not empty, as UN staff had to be evacuated, and the neighbouring schools hosted 1.5k refugees. The UN needs to keep their shit together, they simply can not have weapons stored in close proximity to so many people.
They did,they said they will control all their facilities, and they controlled the one that was bombarded by Israeli (before the attack). They now found two school with rockets, released a statement about it and evacuated the school. What should they do ?
The only thing you are doing is, something that would be unacceptable in any other conflict, putting doubt on the UN. It is something that the media, and people, only do about Israel : when the UN, or any other international agency, release a paper or the result of investigation on Israel, it is always okay to criticize it.
No, if Israeli forces deliberately attack a school and there were no military combatants or weapons in the building then it's illegitimate and needs to be condemned. What I don't do is sitting around in my room, mouth drooling, just waiting for the newest sensational headline what the IDF has done wrong now. All asymmetrical modern wars look like the conflict between Palestine and Israel, and a lot of them look even worse.
And although the Hamas is not carrying people literally around in front of them, leading members of the Hamas have repeatedly stated that civilians are not supposed to leave the bombed areas. It is also a fact that they have fired rockets out of areas that contained civilians and civil infrastructure. The fact that rockets have been found in UN buildings is yet another example of how the Hamas operates.
You are missing the point. This is not a war. As much as Israel tries to make it seem like a war, it's not.
This is a bunch of terrorists firing rockets into Israel, and Israel responding by bombing the general population of Gaza.
You say they're using them as human shields, that they're supposed to stay in these areas... Gaza is one of the most densely populated strips of land on Earth (Gaza City is more densely populated than New York City). There is nowhere else for them to go that isn't also being bombed. The whole thing is almost the size of Washington DC and has 1.8 million people living in it.
you are not only missing the point , you dont even know the facts ..... what do you mean by bunch of terrorists its their GOVERMENT , they gaza ppl elected them over Fatah! its their MISSILES going towards ISRAEL GENERAL POPULATION , for more then a decade (on sederot) , and now they shoot it across all the land (over 100 a day of balitic missiles), what would you do ? tell me , what line of action would you take , if your Washington DC was bombed by anyone ? let me guess , you would ship several navi carriers do half across the globe then conquer an entire country which the terrorists came from , and everyone will cheer because you are fighting a good cause! you know why Egypt is closing the borders on the south side ? because they provide guns and terror equipment to the Sinai Area , please for once in this thread , someone can give me one good way to act ? dead pepole is never ok , and never encouraged , but please one suggestion on what to do when your major cities (Tel Aviv) is being bombed.
Maybe they could choose to negotiate and surrender to the Palestinian demands (1967 or 1948 borders, it doesn't matter because Israel doesn't have legitimacy for either but that's another discussion). But of course that won't happen, instead they build even more illegal settlements. It's easier to pull off a massacre in Gaza or Lebanon every now and then and blame it on the rockets.
Again , you dont anwer a simple question when i repsond , what will your countries will do if being bombed by rockets ? I gave the example of what the US will do if being attacked by a terror organziation. you can read what Russia did in Chechenia and so on. why is Egypt closing the border ?
you are just not willing to see the other side , which makes your points so biased , i for one think the Gaze ppl are in a bad spot , and i whish i could help them get rid of hamas , get a country (which we tried to do several times) and try and develop something which isnt a terror city. i believe that if the average person can live a normal life he will not want to wager war , no one here in israel is happy about killing civilians ,we have internal debate on the legitmacy of the bombing every day because we do have morals , but you just dont understand nor you will ever know what its like to have bomb falling on you from the skies all the time , or 4 states around you attacking in an ambition to kill your entire population. again : GAZA has no settlements and no israely ppl/army inside of it for several years now , Gaza!=west bank.
If Germany were the target of terrorists from another nation, they would try to get this nation to use police against those terrorists.
If Germany were the target of a nation that was using rocket attacks on them, they would maybe probably drop dead on the spot, they would not even have the means to fight back and i doubt they would try to.
If germany had cornered 1,8 million people into a a corner of 360m² (Berlin 3,4m on 890m²), made those people prisoner and stripped them from most means to create a real life, and the history between germany and that land was full of violence and no real tries to stop that violence by germany, the german population would have overthrown their government peacefully 20 years ago. If you would have given the palestinians what they wanted 20 years ago, guess how much you would have to defend yourself now? Knowing that, why are you not stopping the settlers to destroy palestine villages and create their own homes there? Why have you not done that?
As long as you answer war with war, you will have to live in fear that you are one of 28 dead in 13 years from rockets. So, maybe don't do that?
- what's (US)America's take on Michael Scheuer?. - what's the deal with orthodox Jews related to
Tens of thousands Jews protesting the State of Israel in NYC... On June 9, 2013, tens of thousands of Orthodox Jews assembled on the streets of New York City to protest against the existence of the State of Israel, and to condemn it's current evil decree to draft yeshiva students.
On July 25 2014 08:43 Nyxisto wrote: I just linked you a source from a UN website. Are you at least reading what I post before you reply? I didn't doubt anybody. I just don't think it's okay that the UN is so lax about having rockets stored in their official facilities.
You linked a source about empty school, putting doubt on the UN credibility in this matter and on the specific school that has been bombarded. What's the point in talking about empty school ? It is propaganda and you're part of it.
The school was not empty, as UN staff had to be evacuated, and the neighbouring schools hosted 1.5k refugees. The UN needs to keep their shit together, they simply can not have weapons stored in close proximity to so many people.
They did,they said they will control all their facilities, and they controlled the one that was bombarded by Israeli (before the attack). They now found two school with rockets, released a statement about it and evacuated the school. What should they do ?
The only thing you are doing is, something that would be unacceptable in any other conflict, putting doubt on the UN. It is something that the media, and people, only do about Israel : when the UN, or any other international agency, release a paper or the result of investigation on Israel, it is always okay to criticize it.
No, if Israeli forces deliberately attack a school and there were no military combatants or weapons in the building then it's illegitimate and needs to be condemned. What I don't do is sitting around in my room, mouth drooling, just waiting for the newest sensational headline what the IDF has done wrong now. All asymmetrical modern wars look like the conflict between Palestine and Israel, and a lot of them look even worse.
And although the Hamas is not carrying people literally around in front of them, leading members of the Hamas have repeatedly stated that civilians are not supposed to leave the bombed areas. It is also a fact that they have fired rockets out of areas that contained civilians and civil infrastructure. The fact that rockets have been found in UN buildings is yet another example of how the Hamas operates.
You are missing the point. This is not a war. As much as Israel tries to make it seem like a war, it's not.
This is a bunch of terrorists firing rockets into Israel, and Israel responding by bombing the general population of Gaza.
You say they're using them as human shields, that they're supposed to stay in these areas... Gaza is one of the most densely populated strips of land on Earth (Gaza City is more densely populated than New York City). There is nowhere else for them to go that isn't also being bombed. The whole thing is almost the size of Washington DC and has 1.8 million people living in it.
you are not only missing the point , you dont even know the facts ..... what do you mean by bunch of terrorists its their GOVERMENT , they gaza ppl elected them over Fatah! its their MISSILES going towards ISRAEL GENERAL POPULATION , for more then a decade (on sederot) , and now they shoot it across all the land (over 100 a day of balitic missiles), what would you do ? tell me , what line of action would you take , if your Washington DC was bombed by anyone ? let me guess , you would ship several navi carriers do half across the globe then conquer an entire country which the terrorists came from , and everyone will cheer because you are fighting a good cause! you know why Egypt is closing the borders on the south side ? because they provide guns and terror equipment to the Sinai Area , please for once in this thread , someone can give me one good way to act ? dead pepole is never ok , and never encouraged , but please one suggestion on what to do when your major cities (Tel Aviv) is being bombed.
Maybe they could choose to negotiate and surrender to the Palestinian demands (1967 or 1948 borders, it doesn't matter because Israel doesn't have legitimacy for either but that's another discussion). But of course that won't happen, instead they build even more illegal settlements. It's easier to pull off a massacre in Gaza or Lebanon every now and then and blame it on the rockets.
Again , you dont anwer a simple question when i repsond , what will your countries will do if being bombed by rockets ? I gave the example of what the US will do if being attacked by a terror organziation. you can read what Russia did in Chechenia and so on. why is Egypt closing the border ?
you are just not willing to see the other side , which makes your points so biased , i for one think the Gaze ppl are in a bad spot , and i whish i could help them get rid of hamas , get a country (which we tried to do several times) and try and develop something which isnt a terror city. i believe that if the average person can live a normal life he will not want to wager war , no one here in israel is happy about killing civilians ,we have internal debate on the legitmacy of the bombing every day because we do have morals , but you just dont understand nor you will ever know what its like to have bomb falling on you from the skies all the time , or 4 states around you attacking in an ambition to kill your entire population. again : GAZA has no settlements and no israely ppl/army inside of it for several years now , Gaza!=west bank.
If Germany were the target of terrorists from another nation, they would try to get this nation to use police against those terrorists.
If Germany were the target of a nation that was using rocket attacks on them, they would maybe probably drop dead on the spot, they would not even have the means to fight back and i doubt they would try to.
If germany had cornered 1,8 million people into a a corner of 360m² (Berlin 3,4m on 890m²), made those people prisoner and stripped them from most means to create a real life, and the history between germany and that land was full of violence and no real tries to stop that violence by germany, the german population would have overthrown their government peacefully 20 years ago. If you would have given the palestinians what they wanted 20 years ago, guess how much you would have to defend yourself now? Knowing that, why are you not stopping the settlers to destroy palestine villages and create their own homes there? Why have you not done that?
As long as you answer war with war, you will have to live in fear that you are one of 28 dead in 13 years from rockets. So, maybe don't do that?
See this is the typical, naive western view that is based on the fact that we were able to end our centuries of wars. The same wont happen in the middle east. First of, the Arabs as a whole would never be content with anything short of the complete destruction of the state of Israel. It is an abomination in their eyes. It is a joke to assume that not building a few settlements will change that (I generally dont agree with those settlements btw). And even the disolution of the state of Israel would most likely not satisfy them. Just look at what is happening in the whole middle east. The conflict in Israel is a piece of cake compared to what happens in the rest of the region. All the killings between Shia, Sunni, Kurds etc in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, you name it. Israel is an island of peace in comparison. If this state was dissolved, the jews would be fucked. Another exodus would be the only possible consequence.
Tens of thousands Jews protesting the State of Israel in NYC... On June 9, 2013, tens of thousands of Orthodox Jews assembled on the streets of New York City to protest against the existence of the State of Israel, and to condemn it's current evil decree to draft yeshiva students.
The conservative side of Orthodox Judaism has been against Zionism for a long, long time, particularly the American Hasidic sects.
Yeah, most people forgot about it but it was secular jew, affiliated with the far left (communism and utopian socialism) who created Israel. For orthodox jew, Israel is a state that god himself will give them when they are worthy or something like that.
Pro Israeli jews, in US or in Europe today, are usually secular jew, non pratiquant.
EPT
When Fatah went into the elections promising negotiations instead of rockets, Israel did their best to make those negotiations fail. 
