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Gaza war 2014 - Page 33

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WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-25 18:31:58
July 25 2014 18:31 GMT
#641
Most arguments, that I read here, coming from pro israeli either defy common sense or have an irrationnal belief that Palestinians are all antisemitic who want to destroy Israel at all cost.
It is nothing more than common sense to believe that, if the two state solution is ratified, if the settlement are stopped, the blocus end and peace is made, Israeli will keep their weapon to protect themself. Nobody is asking for Israeli to let all their weapon down, so why even talking about it ?
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
radscorpion9
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Canada2252 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-25 19:19:08
July 25 2014 19:16 GMT
#642
I think the core problem is that Israel believes East Jerusalem is now definitively part of Israel, so much so that they've made it part of their new capital (in spite of protests from the UN). I think that, past a certain point in time even the UN will need to be realistic about calling East Jerusalem occupied territory, because there could be such a deeply established society that to uproot it in the name of historical ownership would do more harm than good, just like returning the majority of US land to native Americans would do more harm than good. The question is how much time will that take, or will the UN ever change its position?

Well I suppose they still have time to do something about it, but at this point I would rather support a peace plan that involves something like joint ownership over East Jerusalem rather than going back to pre-1967 borders. I really hope that the UN gets some "teeth" at some point in the near future. Would be cool to have the seeds of a world government
ImperialFist
Profile Joined April 2013
790 Posts
July 25 2014 19:42 GMT
#643
On July 26 2014 03:31 WhiteDog wrote:
Most arguments, that I read here, coming from pro israeli either defy common sense or have an irrationnal belief that Palestinians are all antisemitic who want to destroy Israel at all cost.
It is nothing more than common sense to believe that, if the two state solution is ratified, if the settlement are stopped, the blocus end and peace is made, Israeli will keep their weapon to protect themself. Nobody is asking for Israeli to let all their weapon down, so why even talking about it ?


Can a Palestinian be anti-Semitic? Is that even possible? The Palestinians are just as Semitic as the Jews are. Awkward...
"In the name of Holy Terra I challenge, Take up arms, for the Emperor’s Justice falls on you!"
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
July 25 2014 19:46 GMT
#644
On July 26 2014 04:42 ImperialFist wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2014 03:31 WhiteDog wrote:
Most arguments, that I read here, coming from pro israeli either defy common sense or have an irrationnal belief that Palestinians are all antisemitic who want to destroy Israel at all cost.
It is nothing more than common sense to believe that, if the two state solution is ratified, if the settlement are stopped, the blocus end and peace is made, Israeli will keep their weapon to protect themself. Nobody is asking for Israeli to let all their weapon down, so why even talking about it ?


Can a Palestinian be anti-Semitic? Is that even possible? The Palestinians are just as Semitic as the Jews are. Awkward...

Its a nice play on words but antisemitism is obviously a word specifically referring to anti-Jewish racism that has a long and deep history in Europe and a shorter history in the Muslim world.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24507 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-25 19:56:35
July 25 2014 19:56 GMT
#645
JERUSALEM (AP) — Israel's defense minister says Israel may soon broaden its ground operation in the Gaza Strip significantly.

In a statement by Yaalon's office, he is quoted as telling troops in the field that "you need to be ready for the possibility that very soon we will instruct the military to significantly broaden the ground operation in Gaza."


Source
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Adreme
Profile Joined June 2011
United States5574 Posts
July 25 2014 20:09 GMT
#646
On July 26 2014 04:16 radscorpion9 wrote:
I think the core problem is that Israel believes East Jerusalem is now definitively part of Israel, so much so that they've made it part of their new capital (in spite of protests from the UN). I think that, past a certain point in time even the UN will need to be realistic about calling East Jerusalem occupied territory, because there could be such a deeply established society that to uproot it in the name of historical ownership would do more harm than good, just like returning the majority of US land to native Americans would do more harm than good. The question is how much time will that take, or will the UN ever change its position?

Well I suppose they still have time to do something about it, but at this point I would rather support a peace plan that involves something like joint ownership over East Jerusalem rather than going back to pre-1967 borders. I really hope that the UN gets some "teeth" at some point in the near future. Would be cool to have the seeds of a world government



So using the logic that if you just occupy a territory long enough you don't really have to give it back because its yours now and the people who lived there don't get to complain?
xM(Z
Profile Joined November 2006
Romania5299 Posts
July 25 2014 20:11 GMT
#647
Americans really shit on Europeans for the latest protests. i guess they don't know that calling Europeans anti-Semites won't scare them into submission or something.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/23/anti-semitic-riots-in-europe-took-us-back-to-1938/
some events presented there didn't even happen ...
And my fury stands ready. I bring all your plans to nought. My bleak heart beats steady. 'Tis you whom I have sought.
mahrgell
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Germany3943 Posts
July 25 2014 20:12 GMT
#648
On July 26 2014 05:09 Adreme wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2014 04:16 radscorpion9 wrote:
I think the core problem is that Israel believes East Jerusalem is now definitively part of Israel, so much so that they've made it part of their new capital (in spite of protests from the UN). I think that, past a certain point in time even the UN will need to be realistic about calling East Jerusalem occupied territory, because there could be such a deeply established society that to uproot it in the name of historical ownership would do more harm than good, just like returning the majority of US land to native Americans would do more harm than good. The question is how much time will that take, or will the UN ever change its position?

Well I suppose they still have time to do something about it, but at this point I would rather support a peace plan that involves something like joint ownership over East Jerusalem rather than going back to pre-1967 borders. I really hope that the UN gets some "teeth" at some point in the near future. Would be cool to have the seeds of a world government



So using the logic that if you just occupy a territory long enough you don't really have to give it back because its yours now and the people who lived there don't get to complain?


That is exactly what Israel is trying to achieve for a few decades with their settlements as well as with Jerusalem.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-25 20:20:33
July 25 2014 20:14 GMT
#649
Yes, that's basically how countries are founded,(you'll have problems finding a country that wasn't founded through some kind of war), including the United States. In the case of the state of Israel this isn't even accurate, because migration happened while the territory was under British control and the creation of Israel happened very shortly after some skirmishes between British and Israeli forces and the UK basically agreed to give the Israelis a sovereign state. Compared to most other states Israel came into existence with relatively little force.

Not to mention that all Jews were basically driven either to the US or to Israel because after the decades of pogroms and extermination they just had no other place to live.
xM(Z
Profile Joined November 2006
Romania5299 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-25 20:16:22
July 25 2014 20:16 GMT
#650
On July 26 2014 04:56 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
JERUSALEM (AP) — Israel's defense minister says Israel may soon broaden its ground operation in the Gaza Strip significantly.

In a statement by Yaalon's office, he is quoted as telling troops in the field that "you need to be ready for the possibility that very soon we will instruct the military to significantly broaden the ground operation in Gaza."


Source

i wanted to make a point about this earlier and say: if Israelis will prolong their stay in Gaza, it means they're scared of what's coming from the east so they want to, need to and will solve the Gaza problem soon...
And my fury stands ready. I bring all your plans to nought. My bleak heart beats steady. 'Tis you whom I have sought.
xM(Z
Profile Joined November 2006
Romania5299 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-25 20:23:03
July 25 2014 20:20 GMT
#651
On July 26 2014 05:14 Nyxisto wrote:
Yes, that's basically how countries are founded,(you'll have problems finding a country that wasn't founded through some kind of war), including the United States. In the case of the state of Israel this isn't even accurate, because migration happened while the territory was under British control and the creation of Israel happened very shortly after some skirmishes between British and Israeli forces and the UK basically agreed to give the Israelis a sovereign state.

Not to mention that all Jews were basically driven either to the US or to Israel because after the decades of pogroms and extermination they just had no other place to live.

I'd like to see how that rhetoric of yours will hold up when things will be the other way around and Israel will be occupied.

Edit: or wait, why did East-Germany reunited with West-Germany?, i mean, Russians conquered it...
And my fury stands ready. I bring all your plans to nought. My bleak heart beats steady. 'Tis you whom I have sought.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-25 20:25:16
July 25 2014 20:23 GMT
#652
On July 26 2014 05:20 xM(Z wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2014 05:14 Nyxisto wrote:
Yes, that's basically how countries are founded,(you'll have problems finding a country that wasn't founded through some kind of war), including the United States. In the case of the state of Israel this isn't even accurate, because migration happened while the territory was under British control and the creation of Israel happened very shortly after some skirmishes between British and Israeli forces and the UK basically agreed to give the Israelis a sovereign state.

Not to mention that all Jews were basically driven either to the US or to Israel because after the decades of pogroms and extermination they just had no other place to live.

I'd like to see how that rhetoric of yours will hold up when things will be the other way around and Israel will be occupied.

I wasn't advocating that in modern times everybody should just go to war if they want to grab some territory, I was merely saying that you'll have trouble finding a nation that wasn't founded on some kind of territorial dispute, and that migration into what is now Israel happened with approval of the, at the time, ruling power in the region.
Chocolate
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2350 Posts
July 25 2014 20:25 GMT
#653
On July 26 2014 05:09 Adreme wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2014 04:16 radscorpion9 wrote:
I think the core problem is that Israel believes East Jerusalem is now definitively part of Israel, so much so that they've made it part of their new capital (in spite of protests from the UN). I think that, past a certain point in time even the UN will need to be realistic about calling East Jerusalem occupied territory, because there could be such a deeply established society that to uproot it in the name of historical ownership would do more harm than good, just like returning the majority of US land to native Americans would do more harm than good. The question is how much time will that take, or will the UN ever change its position?

Well I suppose they still have time to do something about it, but at this point I would rather support a peace plan that involves something like joint ownership over East Jerusalem rather than going back to pre-1967 borders. I really hope that the UN gets some "teeth" at some point in the near future. Would be cool to have the seeds of a world government



So using the logic that if you just occupy a territory long enough you don't really have to give it back because its yours now and the people who lived there don't get to complain?

Yeah that's how life works. Texas doesn't belong to Mexico, Virginia doesn't belong to the Powhatan, Russia doesn't belong to the Finns, etc. because none of those have occupied that territory in living memory. After enough time, your case for controlling that territory is that "my ancestors a long time ago used to live there" which is a shitty reason in general.

This also is a factor in how much bullshit it was for Israel to be granted Palestine, how much bullshit their wars of conquest are, and how unlikely it is for what is now Israel to be given back to Palestine.
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-25 20:29:50
July 25 2014 20:27 GMT
#654
On July 26 2014 05:25 Chocolate wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2014 05:09 Adreme wrote:
On July 26 2014 04:16 radscorpion9 wrote:
I think the core problem is that Israel believes East Jerusalem is now definitively part of Israel, so much so that they've made it part of their new capital (in spite of protests from the UN). I think that, past a certain point in time even the UN will need to be realistic about calling East Jerusalem occupied territory, because there could be such a deeply established society that to uproot it in the name of historical ownership would do more harm than good, just like returning the majority of US land to native Americans would do more harm than good. The question is how much time will that take, or will the UN ever change its position?

Well I suppose they still have time to do something about it, but at this point I would rather support a peace plan that involves something like joint ownership over East Jerusalem rather than going back to pre-1967 borders. I really hope that the UN gets some "teeth" at some point in the near future. Would be cool to have the seeds of a world government



So using the logic that if you just occupy a territory long enough you don't really have to give it back because its yours now and the people who lived there don't get to complain?

Yeah that's how life works. Texas doesn't belong to Mexico, Virginia doesn't belong to the Powhatan, Russia doesn't belong to the Finns, etc. because none of those have occupied that territory in living memory. After enough time, your case for controlling that territory is that "my ancestors a long time ago used to live there" which is a shitty reason in general.

This also is a factor in how much bullshit it was for Israel to be granted Palestine, how much bullshit their wars of conquest are, and how unlikely it is for what is now Israel to be given back to Palestine.


Guess crimea doesn't belong to ukraine then, by that logic. Yet, quite alot of posters in here were outraged by what russia pulled.

edit: or as was said before me, east germany/west germany.

There's a difference between occupation and annexion. Germany was occupied, israel (and russia in the other conflict) are annexing land.

Edit: note, i'm not talking about what they were granted back in the day. But there's quite a difference between what was granted and where israel is now.
On track to MA1950A.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-25 20:31:59
July 25 2014 20:29 GMT
#655
On July 26 2014 05:27 m4ini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2014 05:25 Chocolate wrote:
On July 26 2014 05:09 Adreme wrote:
On July 26 2014 04:16 radscorpion9 wrote:
I think the core problem is that Israel believes East Jerusalem is now definitively part of Israel, so much so that they've made it part of their new capital (in spite of protests from the UN). I think that, past a certain point in time even the UN will need to be realistic about calling East Jerusalem occupied territory, because there could be such a deeply established society that to uproot it in the name of historical ownership would do more harm than good, just like returning the majority of US land to native Americans would do more harm than good. The question is how much time will that take, or will the UN ever change its position?

Well I suppose they still have time to do something about it, but at this point I would rather support a peace plan that involves something like joint ownership over East Jerusalem rather than going back to pre-1967 borders. I really hope that the UN gets some "teeth" at some point in the near future. Would be cool to have the seeds of a world government



So using the logic that if you just occupy a territory long enough you don't really have to give it back because its yours now and the people who lived there don't get to complain?

Yeah that's how life works. Texas doesn't belong to Mexico, Virginia doesn't belong to the Powhatan, Russia doesn't belong to the Finns, etc. because none of those have occupied that territory in living memory. After enough time, your case for controlling that territory is that "my ancestors a long time ago used to live there" which is a shitty reason in general.

This also is a factor in how much bullshit it was for Israel to be granted Palestine, how much bullshit their wars of conquest are, and how unlikely it is for what is now Israel to be given back to Palestine.


Guess crimea doesn't belong to ukraine then, by that logic. Yet, quite alot of posters in here were outraged by what russia pulled.

There is quite some difference between how things worked 70 years ago and how they do now. At the time of Israel's foundation the UN barely existed.Right now Russia is breaking international law that have been existing for quite some time.

I can understand how Kings were fighting each other in the middle ages and accept it as a fact of that time. That doesn't mean I'm advocating it happening now and I can't judge territorial disputes from the past by today's standards.
Agathon
Profile Joined February 2011
France1505 Posts
July 25 2014 20:30 GMT
#656
On July 26 2014 05:11 xM(Z wrote:
Americans really shit on Europeans for the latest protests. i guess they don't know that calling Europeans anti-Semites won't scare them into submission or something.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/23/anti-semitic-riots-in-europe-took-us-back-to-1938/
some events presented there didn't even happen ...


It's not americans in general. It's just a well know right wing newspaper. Please don't answer stupid generalisation by stupid generalisation.

"C'est au pied du mur, qu'on voit le mieux...le mur".
Chocolate
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2350 Posts
July 25 2014 20:34 GMT
#657
On July 26 2014 05:27 m4ini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2014 05:25 Chocolate wrote:
On July 26 2014 05:09 Adreme wrote:
On July 26 2014 04:16 radscorpion9 wrote:
I think the core problem is that Israel believes East Jerusalem is now definitively part of Israel, so much so that they've made it part of their new capital (in spite of protests from the UN). I think that, past a certain point in time even the UN will need to be realistic about calling East Jerusalem occupied territory, because there could be such a deeply established society that to uproot it in the name of historical ownership would do more harm than good, just like returning the majority of US land to native Americans would do more harm than good. The question is how much time will that take, or will the UN ever change its position?

Well I suppose they still have time to do something about it, but at this point I would rather support a peace plan that involves something like joint ownership over East Jerusalem rather than going back to pre-1967 borders. I really hope that the UN gets some "teeth" at some point in the near future. Would be cool to have the seeds of a world government



So using the logic that if you just occupy a territory long enough you don't really have to give it back because its yours now and the people who lived there don't get to complain?

Yeah that's how life works. Texas doesn't belong to Mexico, Virginia doesn't belong to the Powhatan, Russia doesn't belong to the Finns, etc. because none of those have occupied that territory in living memory. After enough time, your case for controlling that territory is that "my ancestors a long time ago used to live there" which is a shitty reason in general.

This also is a factor in how much bullshit it was for Israel to be granted Palestine, how much bullshit their wars of conquest are, and how unlikely it is for what is now Israel to be given back to Palestine.


Guess crimea doesn't belong to ukraine then, by that logic. Yet, quite alot of posters in here were outraged by what russia pulled.

edit: or as was said before me, east germany/west germany.

There's a difference between occupation and annexion. Germany was occupied, israel (and russia in the other conflict) are annexing land.

Edit: note, i'm not talking about what they were granted back in the day. But there's quite a difference between what was granted and where israel is now.

It depends on who lives there, Crimeans should get self-determination and all that good stuff. It's all about who lives in a territory (or very recently lived there), not who used to.

Also the outcry over Crimea is that Russia is known for fixing elections and thus any poll given to Crimeans that would just so happen to advance Russia's agenda is highly suspect. As for Germany, I don't understand the point. Russians generally weren't brought in to live there; east Germany stayed German, there was simply a political division.
xM(Z
Profile Joined November 2006
Romania5299 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-25 20:40:49
July 25 2014 20:38 GMT
#658
On July 26 2014 05:30 Agathon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2014 05:11 xM(Z wrote:
Americans really shit on Europeans for the latest protests. i guess they don't know that calling Europeans anti-Semites won't scare them into submission or something.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/23/anti-semitic-riots-in-europe-took-us-back-to-1938/
some events presented there didn't even happen ...


It's not americans in general. It's just a well know right wing newspaper. Please don't answer stupid generalisation by stupid generalisation.


i read the same stuff in other 3 American newspapers - huffingtonpost and couple others that i forgot their name. it's not one paper and it's not a right wing one.

Edit: you can take it to mean American newspapers if you're so offended by the alleged generalization.
And my fury stands ready. I bring all your plans to nought. My bleak heart beats steady. 'Tis you whom I have sought.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-25 20:43:02
July 25 2014 20:42 GMT
#659
On July 26 2014 05:30 Agathon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2014 05:11 xM(Z wrote:
Americans really shit on Europeans for the latest protests. i guess they don't know that calling Europeans anti-Semites won't scare them into submission or something.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/23/anti-semitic-riots-in-europe-took-us-back-to-1938/
some events presented there didn't even happen ...


It's not americans in general. It's just a well know right wing newspaper. Please don't answer stupid generalisation by stupid generalisation.


Haha, the Washington Post is anything but right wing. And don't confuse editorials for the political leanings of the paper itself.
Chocolate
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2350 Posts
July 25 2014 20:42 GMT
#660
On July 26 2014 05:38 xM(Z wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2014 05:30 Agathon wrote:
On July 26 2014 05:11 xM(Z wrote:
Americans really shit on Europeans for the latest protests. i guess they don't know that calling Europeans anti-Semites won't scare them into submission or something.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/23/anti-semitic-riots-in-europe-took-us-back-to-1938/
some events presented there didn't even happen ...


It's not americans in general. It's just a well know right wing newspaper. Please don't answer stupid generalisation by stupid generalisation.


i read the same stuff in other 3 American newspapers - huffingtonpost and couple others that i forgot their name. it's not one paper and it's not a right wing one.

Edit: you can take it to mean American newspapers if you're so offended by the alleged generalization.

The population generally supports the existence of Israel (I think 95% of conservatives and 80% of liberals) so it makes economic sense for newspapers to tell people what they want to hear.

If you look at america.aljazeera.com you will get quite a different impression
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