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On October 02 2013 01:03 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 00:55 Nevuk wrote:On October 02 2013 00:44 MstrJinbo wrote:On October 02 2013 00:42 Nevuk wrote:On October 02 2013 00:28 Mercy13 wrote:On October 02 2013 00:14 riyanme wrote:On October 02 2013 00:02 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On October 01 2013 23:47 riyanme wrote:On October 01 2013 23:07 Orek wrote:
"Impossible n'est pas français." -Napoléon Bonaparte
"Compromise n'est pas american politics." -US politicians what does this mean? -impossible isnt french -N.B. - compromise isnt american politics - US politicians. way to get screwed by the dudes you empowered by voting for them. also it baffles me to see americans refusing universal healthcare. I cant figure why you would not want it. thanks... im not american so i dont get the real issue here... like as he said, why would anyone not want a health care? as a foreinger who doesn't know the obama care... what are the cons? The main criticisms with merit that I have heard are: 1. The government cannot afford the subsidies that will be required for poor people to buy insurance on the exchanges. 2. The medical device tax (intended to help pay for those subsidies, along with other costs of the ACA) will hurt manufacturers and cause the US to lose jobs overseas. 3. The ACA requires small business owners with over a certain number of employees to provide health insurance for those employees. This may cost small businesses a lot, and they will hire fewer people as a result. Personally, I think these concerns are valid, and the ACA should be amended to address them. However, causing a shut down and threatening a default are tactics that are reckless and immoral, so I'm with the Dems on this one. On point #2 a few senate democrats have said they were willing to negotiate on that, if it were not for the fact that the house decided to use a government shutdown as leverage. Sets a bad precedent and all. edit - Also, the ACA isn't even close to universal health care. Bad precidence? Congress has been doing this stuff for decades. It's an established tactic. It's true that this is the 18th government shutdown, but the majority of the previous ones were resolved within a day or two and bore no resemblance to this issue (and were in the 70s..). If you want to use Gingrich as an example of a precedent then um. Not much to say there. The debt ceiling might be what you're thinking of (that is an established tactic). The CR has enough votes to pass in the house (the bill the senate wants passed), Boehner is refusing to bring it to the floor for a vote because of the Hastert Rule, the one that states that the majority of the majority party must support the bill in order to hold a vote (ostensibly that's the reason, he's broken the rule in the past). I really don't see why he is doing this outside of some bizarre desperate gamble to avoid being primaried, retain the speaker position, or just sabotage the tea party members of his party. Here is some reading material on past govt shutdowns http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2013/09/30/history-government-shutdowns/JCbyamnf0ifg6DSCpEsTkK/story.html it's a really common tactic used by both sides.
Is it a valid tactic when either side does it?
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On October 02 2013 00:42 dwoobydoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 00:35 jeremysaint wrote:
I notice that the only support for republicans is from people in the usa. Foreigners support democrats or are (rarely) indifferent. Coincidentally im sure, foreigners are also overwhelmingly better informed on usa politics than americans. Foreigners are spoonfed anti-republican propaganda every day.
Nah, it's more like a lot of propaganda doesn't reach us because it's more important to manipulate potential voters than random foreigners.
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On October 02 2013 01:08 CannonsNCarriers wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 01:03 MstrJinbo wrote:On October 02 2013 00:55 Nevuk wrote:On October 02 2013 00:44 MstrJinbo wrote:On October 02 2013 00:42 Nevuk wrote:On October 02 2013 00:28 Mercy13 wrote:On October 02 2013 00:14 riyanme wrote:On October 02 2013 00:02 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On October 01 2013 23:47 riyanme wrote:On October 01 2013 23:07 Orek wrote:
"Impossible n'est pas français." -Napoléon Bonaparte
"Compromise n'est pas american politics." -US politicians what does this mean? -impossible isnt french -N.B. - compromise isnt american politics - US politicians. way to get screwed by the dudes you empowered by voting for them. also it baffles me to see americans refusing universal healthcare. I cant figure why you would not want it. thanks... im not american so i dont get the real issue here... like as he said, why would anyone not want a health care? as a foreinger who doesn't know the obama care... what are the cons? The main criticisms with merit that I have heard are: 1. The government cannot afford the subsidies that will be required for poor people to buy insurance on the exchanges. 2. The medical device tax (intended to help pay for those subsidies, along with other costs of the ACA) will hurt manufacturers and cause the US to lose jobs overseas. 3. The ACA requires small business owners with over a certain number of employees to provide health insurance for those employees. This may cost small businesses a lot, and they will hire fewer people as a result. Personally, I think these concerns are valid, and the ACA should be amended to address them. However, causing a shut down and threatening a default are tactics that are reckless and immoral, so I'm with the Dems on this one. On point #2 a few senate democrats have said they were willing to negotiate on that, if it were not for the fact that the house decided to use a government shutdown as leverage. Sets a bad precedent and all. edit - Also, the ACA isn't even close to universal health care. Bad precidence? Congress has been doing this stuff for decades. It's an established tactic. It's true that this is the 18th government shutdown, but the majority of the previous ones were resolved within a day or two and bore no resemblance to this issue (and were in the 70s..). If you want to use Gingrich as an example of a precedent then um. Not much to say there. The debt ceiling might be what you're thinking of (that is an established tactic). The CR has enough votes to pass in the house (the bill the senate wants passed), Boehner is refusing to bring it to the floor for a vote because of the Hastert Rule, the one that states that the majority of the majority party must support the bill in order to hold a vote (ostensibly that's the reason, he's broken the rule in the past). I really don't see why he is doing this outside of some bizarre desperate gamble to avoid being primaried, retain the speaker position, or just sabotage the tea party members of his party. Here is some reading material on past govt shutdowns http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2013/09/30/history-government-shutdowns/JCbyamnf0ifg6DSCpEsTkK/story.html it's a really common tactic used by both sides. Is it a valid tactic when either side does it?
Valid is your word not mine. No one is disputing the legality of it if that is what you are asking.
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Man that article is so neutral and unbiased...
Anyways, I think that this can potentially be a pretty minor problem in the grand scheme of things if the government is back up and running sometime soon. If this is a more long term thing, it'll cause some problems for sure.
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On October 02 2013 01:16 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 01:08 CannonsNCarriers wrote:On October 02 2013 01:03 MstrJinbo wrote:On October 02 2013 00:55 Nevuk wrote:On October 02 2013 00:44 MstrJinbo wrote:On October 02 2013 00:42 Nevuk wrote:On October 02 2013 00:28 Mercy13 wrote:On October 02 2013 00:14 riyanme wrote:On October 02 2013 00:02 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On October 01 2013 23:47 riyanme wrote:
[quote]
what does this mean? -impossible isnt french -N.B. - compromise isnt american politics - US politicians. way to get screwed by the dudes you empowered by voting for them. also it baffles me to see americans refusing universal healthcare. I cant figure why you would not want it. thanks... im not american so i dont get the real issue here... like as he said, why would anyone not want a health care? as a foreinger who doesn't know the obama care... what are the cons? The main criticisms with merit that I have heard are: 1. The government cannot afford the subsidies that will be required for poor people to buy insurance on the exchanges. 2. The medical device tax (intended to help pay for those subsidies, along with other costs of the ACA) will hurt manufacturers and cause the US to lose jobs overseas. 3. The ACA requires small business owners with over a certain number of employees to provide health insurance for those employees. This may cost small businesses a lot, and they will hire fewer people as a result. Personally, I think these concerns are valid, and the ACA should be amended to address them. However, causing a shut down and threatening a default are tactics that are reckless and immoral, so I'm with the Dems on this one. On point #2 a few senate democrats have said they were willing to negotiate on that, if it were not for the fact that the house decided to use a government shutdown as leverage. Sets a bad precedent and all. edit - Also, the ACA isn't even close to universal health care. Bad precidence? Congress has been doing this stuff for decades. It's an established tactic. It's true that this is the 18th government shutdown, but the majority of the previous ones were resolved within a day or two and bore no resemblance to this issue (and were in the 70s..). If you want to use Gingrich as an example of a precedent then um. Not much to say there. The debt ceiling might be what you're thinking of (that is an established tactic). The CR has enough votes to pass in the house (the bill the senate wants passed), Boehner is refusing to bring it to the floor for a vote because of the Hastert Rule, the one that states that the majority of the majority party must support the bill in order to hold a vote (ostensibly that's the reason, he's broken the rule in the past). I really don't see why he is doing this outside of some bizarre desperate gamble to avoid being primaried, retain the speaker position, or just sabotage the tea party members of his party. Here is some reading material on past govt shutdowns http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2013/09/30/history-government-shutdowns/JCbyamnf0ifg6DSCpEsTkK/story.html it's a really common tactic used by both sides. Is it a valid tactic when either side does it? Valid is your word not mine. No one is disputing the legality of it if that is what you are asking.
Fine. "Should" either side do it? Is it a morally right thing to do?
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On October 02 2013 00:01 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 23:55 LittleRedBoy wrote:
A government shutdown really isn't a big deal in my opinion. I doubt I'm going to notice anything at all to be honest. Yeah, well it's not like the american economy is shaky even without the government shutdown. And the financial industry LOVES the uncertainty political instability and all the fun that comes with it - like slowing economic recovery all around the world! And oh boy oh boy, your politicians look like grown ups who can solve the great problems that are ahead of them.But I guess you are right. Business as usual.
Yeah, well, most of the problems the politicians are tasked with solving were created by these politicians in the first place. Case in point, this shutdown is over problems with the implementation of Obamacare.
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On October 02 2013 00:40 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 00:28 jellyjello wrote:On October 02 2013 00:02 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On October 01 2013 23:47 riyanme wrote:On October 01 2013 23:07 Orek wrote:
"Impossible n'est pas français." -Napoléon Bonaparte
"Compromise n'est pas american politics." -US politicians what does this mean? -impossible isnt french -N.B. - compromise isnt american politics - US politicians. way to get screwed by the dudes you empowered by voting for them. also it baffles me to see americans refusing universal healthcare. I cant figure why you would not want it. I've seen how the universal healthcare works - my wife has been on it, and after all those years of mistreatment I simply cannot trust it anymore.This sounds like a cliche to some, but living in overseas for so many years made me realize all the little things we've always bitched about were actually awesome compared to what I have now. Sorry to hear that, which universal healthcare system have you used if you don't mind me asking? I bet there are quite big differences when comparing I dunno, the British NHS with the French, or Austrian system. Point is, there is not "the universal healthcare system" - it's policitians who put it in place with the will of the people, and different countries have different sets of resources available.
Many people I know bitch about our universal healthcare system (Canada). But none, I believe, question the fact that health should be free and accessible. We are only bitching about how big of a burden it has become.
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On October 02 2013 00:55 LittleRedBoy wrote:They've all gone bonkers. Congress has been messing things up for years and the chickens are now coming home to roost. No, the REPUBLICANS have gone bonkers.
They demand practically the entire policy of Romney's campaign, without offering anything in return other than to not sabotage the government.
The Tea Party movement is a radical and extreme cult. The Democratic Party is moderate to the point of being boring.
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i think im sick but, I find it ironic that the healthcare issue seems to be doing what osama planned to with the towers.
Two towers fall and americans pull together, but mention healthcare a little while later and they are at each others throats.
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Well, at leat they keep paying the military, or they maybe we would have civil war breaking out in the US oO.
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Any Canadians interested in a quick land grab before the US notices? I'll organize a militia in quebec/ontario to grab vermont and Maine. Can someone in BC organize a land grab on Colorado?
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On October 02 2013 01:33 XenOmega wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 00:40 Doublemint wrote:On October 02 2013 00:28 jellyjello wrote:On October 02 2013 00:02 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On October 01 2013 23:47 riyanme wrote:On October 01 2013 23:07 Orek wrote:
"Impossible n'est pas français." -Napoléon Bonaparte
"Compromise n'est pas american politics." -US politicians what does this mean? -impossible isnt french -N.B. - compromise isnt american politics - US politicians. way to get screwed by the dudes you empowered by voting for them. also it baffles me to see americans refusing universal healthcare. I cant figure why you would not want it. I've seen how the universal healthcare works - my wife has been on it, and after all those years of mistreatment I simply cannot trust it anymore.This sounds like a cliche to some, but living in overseas for so many years made me realize all the little things we've always bitched about were actually awesome compared to what I have now. Sorry to hear that, which universal healthcare system have you used if you don't mind me asking? I bet there are quite big differences when comparing I dunno, the British NHS with the French, or Austrian system. Point is, there is not "the universal healthcare system" - it's policitians who put it in place with the will of the people, and different countries have different sets of resources available. Many people I know bitch about our universal healthcare system (Canada). But none, I believe, question the fact that health should be free and accessible. We are only bitching about how big of a burden it has become.
I agree. I don't know what all the ideological fuzz is about. You can argue all day long how communist we are, but fact is that "our" (meaning the Canadian/European) healthcare model just works. It's cheap and good. We aren't slaves and our states are not some kind of enourmous freedom eating monster.
As far as i understand the Affordable Care Act would enable about 20 million people to get access to insurance. I don't get how anybody would think that this is not a good thing.
Another point is that people elected Obama/the democrats. It's fine if the oppositional party does not agree with what the governing party wants, but at least they should respect the voters will.
For me it looks like a minority of extremist people is blockading everything just for the sake of stopping the government from functioning.
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On October 02 2013 01:43 EAGER-beaver wrote:
Any Canadians interested in a quick land grab before the US notices? I'll organize a militia in quebec/ontario to grab vermont and Maine. Can someone in BC organize a land grab on Colorado?
Washington would suffice if someone wanted their legalized marijuana, colorado isn't on the border so that would be quite the land grab.
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I posted this to my facebook after finding a very similar statement on reddit.
What are they going to do next? Shut down the government because they don't like the existence of the EPA, HUD, or Food Stamps? This is crazy. Why does the Republican party always make themselves look like fools? Is it so much to ask that they don't just hand the elections to the Democrats?
Bummer town.
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On October 02 2013 01:45 Livelovedie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 01:43 EAGER-beaver wrote:
Any Canadians interested in a quick land grab before the US notices? I'll organize a militia in quebec/ontario to grab vermont and Maine. Can someone in BC organize a land grab on Colorado? Washington would suffice if someone wanted their legalized marijuana, colorado isn't on the border so that would be quite the land grab.
That shits comming regardless of washington, Colorado makes lots of missles, canada would need those to stave off the moose cultist to the north.
Man it must be weird in the states today...
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On October 02 2013 01:43 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 01:33 XenOmega wrote:On October 02 2013 00:40 Doublemint wrote:On October 02 2013 00:28 jellyjello wrote:On October 02 2013 00:02 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On October 01 2013 23:47 riyanme wrote:On October 01 2013 23:07 Orek wrote:
"Impossible n'est pas français." -Napoléon Bonaparte
"Compromise n'est pas american politics." -US politicians what does this mean? -impossible isnt french -N.B. - compromise isnt american politics - US politicians. way to get screwed by the dudes you empowered by voting for them. also it baffles me to see americans refusing universal healthcare. I cant figure why you would not want it. I've seen how the universal healthcare works - my wife has been on it, and after all those years of mistreatment I simply cannot trust it anymore.This sounds like a cliche to some, but living in overseas for so many years made me realize all the little things we've always bitched about were actually awesome compared to what I have now. Sorry to hear that, which universal healthcare system have you used if you don't mind me asking? I bet there are quite big differences when comparing I dunno, the British NHS with the French, or Austrian system. Point is, there is not "the universal healthcare system" - it's policitians who put it in place with the will of the people, and different countries have different sets of resources available. Many people I know bitch about our universal healthcare system (Canada). But none, I believe, question the fact that health should be free and accessible. We are only bitching about how big of a burden it has become. I agree. I don't know what all the ideological fuzz is about. You can argue all day long how communist we are, but fact is that "our" (meaning the Canadian/European) healthcare model just works. It's cheap and good. We aren't slaves and our states are not some kind of enourmous freedom eating monster. As far as i understand the Affordable Care Act would enable about 20 million people to get access to insurance. I don't get how anybody would think that this is not a good thing. Another point is that people elected Obama/the democrats. It's fine if the oppositional party does not agree with what the governing party wants, but at least they should respect the voters will. For me it looks like a minority of extremist people is blockading everything just for the sake of stopping the government from functioning.
Most of the 20 million already had access to insurance. The ACA basically forces them to buy it from private insurers and subsidizes the rest. And you are also overstating public support for the law. According to polling there is little popular support for the law itself.
Edit: I mean the population is divided on ACA/Obamacare. It has both a lot of supporters and non-supporters
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On October 02 2013 01:50 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 01:43 Nyxisto wrote:On October 02 2013 01:33 XenOmega wrote:On October 02 2013 00:40 Doublemint wrote:On October 02 2013 00:28 jellyjello wrote:On October 02 2013 00:02 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On October 01 2013 23:47 riyanme wrote:On October 01 2013 23:07 Orek wrote:
"Impossible n'est pas français." -Napoléon Bonaparte
"Compromise n'est pas american politics." -US politicians what does this mean? -impossible isnt french -N.B. - compromise isnt american politics - US politicians. way to get screwed by the dudes you empowered by voting for them. also it baffles me to see americans refusing universal healthcare. I cant figure why you would not want it. I've seen how the universal healthcare works - my wife has been on it, and after all those years of mistreatment I simply cannot trust it anymore.This sounds like a cliche to some, but living in overseas for so many years made me realize all the little things we've always bitched about were actually awesome compared to what I have now. Sorry to hear that, which universal healthcare system have you used if you don't mind me asking? I bet there are quite big differences when comparing I dunno, the British NHS with the French, or Austrian system. Point is, there is not "the universal healthcare system" - it's policitians who put it in place with the will of the people, and different countries have different sets of resources available. Many people I know bitch about our universal healthcare system (Canada). But none, I believe, question the fact that health should be free and accessible. We are only bitching about how big of a burden it has become. I agree. I don't know what all the ideological fuzz is about. You can argue all day long how communist we are, but fact is that "our" (meaning the Canadian/European) healthcare model just works. It's cheap and good. We aren't slaves and our states are not some kind of enourmous freedom eating monster. As far as i understand the Affordable Care Act would enable about 20 million people to get access to insurance. I don't get how anybody would think that this is not a good thing. Another point is that people elected Obama/the democrats. It's fine if the oppositional party does not agree with what the governing party wants, but at least they should respect the voters will. For me it looks like a minority of extremist people is blockading everything just for the sake of stopping the government from functioning. Most of the 20 million already had access to insurance. The ACA basically forces them to buy it from private insurers and subsidizes the rest. And you are also overstating public support for the law. According to polling there is little popular support for the law itself.
So the people who already can afford insurance will pay for more insurance and the people who dont have insurance will have insurance? yea...lose lose there..
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Just out of curiosity, does imigration services (people traveling to or from US) also gets affected ?
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On October 02 2013 01:50 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 01:43 Nyxisto wrote:On October 02 2013 01:33 XenOmega wrote:On October 02 2013 00:40 Doublemint wrote:On October 02 2013 00:28 jellyjello wrote:On October 02 2013 00:02 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On October 01 2013 23:47 riyanme wrote:On October 01 2013 23:07 Orek wrote:
"Impossible n'est pas français." -Napoléon Bonaparte
"Compromise n'est pas american politics." -US politicians what does this mean? -impossible isnt french -N.B. - compromise isnt american politics - US politicians. way to get screwed by the dudes you empowered by voting for them. also it baffles me to see americans refusing universal healthcare. I cant figure why you would not want it. I've seen how the universal healthcare works - my wife has been on it, and after all those years of mistreatment I simply cannot trust it anymore.This sounds like a cliche to some, but living in overseas for so many years made me realize all the little things we've always bitched about were actually awesome compared to what I have now. Sorry to hear that, which universal healthcare system have you used if you don't mind me asking? I bet there are quite big differences when comparing I dunno, the British NHS with the French, or Austrian system. Point is, there is not "the universal healthcare system" - it's policitians who put it in place with the will of the people, and different countries have different sets of resources available. Many people I know bitch about our universal healthcare system (Canada). But none, I believe, question the fact that health should be free and accessible. We are only bitching about how big of a burden it has become. I agree. I don't know what all the ideological fuzz is about. You can argue all day long how communist we are, but fact is that "our" (meaning the Canadian/European) healthcare model just works. It's cheap and good. We aren't slaves and our states are not some kind of enourmous freedom eating monster. As far as i understand the Affordable Care Act would enable about 20 million people to get access to insurance. I don't get how anybody would think that this is not a good thing. Another point is that people elected Obama/the democrats. It's fine if the oppositional party does not agree with what the governing party wants, but at least they should respect the voters will. For me it looks like a minority of extremist people is blockading everything just for the sake of stopping the government from functioning. Most of the 20 million already had access to insurance. The ACA basically forces them to buy it from private insurers and subsidizes the rest. And you are also overstating public support for the law. According to polling there is little popular support for the law itself. Edit: I mean the population is divided on ACA/Obamacare. It has both a lot of supporters and non-supporters
From what i could find on the internet, most studies seem to agree that the ACA will make insurance cheaper for a lot of people, and may also reduce the cost of government spending on ensurance.
"
Several studies on insurance premiums expect that with the subsidies offered under the ACA, more people will pay less (than they did prior to the reforms) than those who will pay more, and that those premiums will be more stable (even in changing health circumstances) and transparent, thanks to the regulations on insurance."
If i assume that not all of these studies are just made up, it seems like you make the reform sound much worse than it actually is.
And subsidizes for the healthcare sector aren't all that bad. The healthcare sector exists to keep people healthy after all, at least i don't think it should be run like an oil company.
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http://www.commonwealthfund.org/~/media/Files/Publications/Issue Brief/2011/Jul/1532_Squires_US_hlt_sys_comparison_12_nations_intl_brief_v2.pdf
Analysis of healthcare spending in the 12 richest industrialised countrys.
Lots of interesting data,charts and analysis in there.
Would be interesting to add life expectancy charts. They could even adjust it for monney spend : Usa life expectancy is lower then it is in the netherlands or scandinavia but it is probably dragged down by the bottem 50% of spenders on healthcare.
Rich people spend well above average on healthcare i presume (with private clinics and such), and am wondering if that extra spending translates in a significant higher life expectancy,guess this could be food for a different study.
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EPT
