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1071 Posts
On August 08 2013 00:49 DoubleReed wrote:
Russia also has an incredibly high death rate, especially men. Life expentancy of men is massively disparate from women. You want to talk about longevity, start there.
no it's them gays obviously as everyone knows.
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On August 08 2013 00:14 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 00:01 ETisME wrote:everyone seems to mis-reading this. It's not about population growth or equal right limited freedom etc Russia letting snowden to stay resident in the country is a public slap to the US, even if Putin said something like don't leak anything about our friend, the US and you can stay. Basically the US needs something as a retribution, this is one of them. The cleverness of this is actually Russia is NOT rejecting the gays, they are merely saying no to propaganda. This way, even though Russia will be the ugly man here, they aren't gonna get that bad of an image. And the US will be slapping its own face if it takes about Russia is limiting freedom of speech because of Snowden case US has already been humiliating itself a lot because of Snowden, including forcing a presidential plane of another country to land because of a false report that Snowden might be on the plane http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/02/world/americas/bolivia-presidential-plane Or it could be that discriminating against homosexuals is objectively wrong, regardless of what is going on with Snowden. And institutional homophobia in Russia goes far beyond this, although this law defines anything that indicates homosexuality might be a valid life choice as propaganda which is pretty horrific. It's indefensible, it's immoral, it's certainly not protecting children and it has literally nothing to do with Snowden.
I am not arguing about whether Russia is treating gays fairly or not. I know how good you can write about what Russia is doing is immoral etc but that's not the point.
Most of these big announcements aren't just there suddenly and of no reason at all.
Just look at this thread in general. Quite a number of people are already saying Russia isn't doing too bad, they are rejecting the gay's entry, they are against propaganda.
Russia is trying to please the US to get over some of the damage the Snowden case has caused. Politics and international relationship are a lot more complicated than a simple event or ideology
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On August 08 2013 00:47 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 00:42 Plansix wrote:On August 08 2013 00:32 Feartheguru wrote:On August 08 2013 00:28 Plansix wrote:On August 08 2013 00:22 Feartheguru wrote:On August 08 2013 00:17 Plansix wrote:On August 08 2013 00:12 Feartheguru wrote:On August 07 2013 23:46 Plansix wrote:On August 07 2013 23:40 Feartheguru wrote:On August 07 2013 23:21 MidKnight wrote:
Yeah, just like we can see from some of the people posting a huge problem is simply lack of understanding of homosexuality.
Some people do actually believe that "more people will be become gay if we accept that being gay is not a bad thing". That's obviously a completely nonsensical and ludicrous statement if you're educated on the matter, but a lot of people do think that way and make arguments based on that assumption which is simply wrong. Of course, any kind of study which conflicts with their beliefs is deemed as "western propaganda". It's interesting to observe.
If people from that region realized that sexual attraction is not a choice and that there's nothing to suggest that the % of population which is gay increased in the recent times due to it being more accepted in society (only that more people are "coming out of the closet" and are more comfortable with accepting and embracing who they are instead of pretending to be straight and living their lives in misery), tolerance would increase. It's just that these ridiculous ideas are so deeply ingrained into the culture of these countries, that people just keep on believing them. The number of gay people would not increase, but the number of outwardly gay people would. In a country like Russia with a plumetting birthrate, that actually is a big deal. How will this ever be a problem? How will more openly gay people EVER stop people from having kids? Its not like men are going to leave their wives on mass once they know they are can be openly gay. This could be the worst argument ever. More gay people will not stay in the closet and thus not go into a traditional marriage and have children? Obviously gay people don't stop straight people from having kids. This likely is the worst rebuttle ever. Because you provide no evidence to back up those facts. Your argument is "If they can be openly gay, they won't fuck women and then we won't get babies. Our population problem will continue due to this." Russia's population problem has nothing to do with gay anything. Maybe they should work on having straight couples have more than 1 child. First of all I never claimed Russia's population problem "continues due to this" (although I did suggested it might be exacerbated by it), so stop putting words in my mouth... Openly gay couples have less children (through biological means, adoption doesn't count) than normal couples do. This is so obvious I'm not gonna waste time providing evidence. Its not obvious is any way. There is no proof that preventing someone from being openly gay causes them to enter into relationships with the opposite sex and have children. The few people who do enter those relationships are likely in denied as to their sexuality and would not live openly even if it as an option. Your argument is beyond flawed. It can be boiled down to: Gay people have to be fucking someone. If they can't be in an open gay relationship, they must be fucking someone of the opposite sex. Fucking the opposite sex leads to babies. Openly gay couples means their will be less babies, because they will fuck fewer people of the opposite sex. Are you gonna strawman every post I make, if so just don't respond to this. (Or if it'd make you feel better you can get the last word, I'm ok with that) In societies where homosexuality is not accepted, some of them DO enter into traditional marriages to avoid social stigma, or to feel like they are living a normal life. How is this anything but undeniable fact? It isn't deniable, you are 100% correct on that. However, your orgional argument was: "The number of gay people would not increase, but the number of outwardly gay people would. In a country like Russia with a plumetting birthrate, that actually is a big deal." This argument centers around the idea that there are a large number of gay people in traditional relationships due to the fact that can cannot live openly. People are arguing that this is not a signifigant number in any way and would have no effect on the population. As you have provided no evidence and are only relying on the fact that there must be some gay people in traditional relationships, people are pointing out the flaws in the argument. Yes, you are correct that their are people who are gay in traditional relationships all over, that was never in question. However, you have failed to prove that those people are in large enough numbers to have an effect on population growth across the Nation of Russia. And common sense would say that this is likely not the case. Ok, I apologize for the misunderstanding here. I wrote that purely in the sense that since the population issue is such a "big deal" for Russia, anything that might exacerbate it further is a major issue for them. I did not intent to suggest that allowing gays to be open would make a substantive difference. So I had no idea why you were trying to suggest I meant that until you quoted what I original said and how it can easily be interpreted that way.
No problem, it seemed like a weird argument to be so invested in. I have had the same problems when going back to an origional post and see "Oh man, that does look silly if you read it like that." Though I may not have been as gracious as you are about it.
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1071 Posts
On August 08 2013 00:50 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 00:14 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 00:01 ETisME wrote:everyone seems to mis-reading this. It's not about population growth or equal right limited freedom etc Russia letting snowden to stay resident in the country is a public slap to the US, even if Putin said something like don't leak anything about our friend, the US and you can stay. Basically the US needs something as a retribution, this is one of them. The cleverness of this is actually Russia is NOT rejecting the gays, they are merely saying no to propaganda. This way, even though Russia will be the ugly man here, they aren't gonna get that bad of an image. And the US will be slapping its own face if it takes about Russia is limiting freedom of speech because of Snowden case US has already been humiliating itself a lot because of Snowden, including forcing a presidential plane of another country to land because of a false report that Snowden might be on the plane http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/02/world/americas/bolivia-presidential-plane Or it could be that discriminating against homosexuals is objectively wrong, regardless of what is going on with Snowden. And institutional homophobia in Russia goes far beyond this, although this law defines anything that indicates homosexuality might be a valid life choice as propaganda which is pretty horrific. It's indefensible, it's immoral, it's certainly not protecting children and it has literally nothing to do with Snowden. I am not arguing about whether Russia is treating gays fairly or not. I know how good you can write about what Russia is doing is immoral etc but that's not the point. Most of these big announcements aren't just there suddenly and of no reason at all. Just look at this thread in general. Quite a number of people are already saying Russia isn't doing too bad, they are rejecting the gay's entry, they are against propaganda. Russia is trying to please the US to get over some of the damage the Snowden case has caused. Politics and international relationship are a lot more complicated than a simple event or ideology
the russian police stopped recording hate crimes if f.e. gays are beaten to death. u can kill gays and get away with it. is that what u call "being against propaganda"? it's more than that
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On August 08 2013 00:52 Denda Reloaded wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 00:50 ETisME wrote:On August 08 2013 00:14 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 00:01 ETisME wrote:everyone seems to mis-reading this. It's not about population growth or equal right limited freedom etc Russia letting snowden to stay resident in the country is a public slap to the US, even if Putin said something like don't leak anything about our friend, the US and you can stay. Basically the US needs something as a retribution, this is one of them. The cleverness of this is actually Russia is NOT rejecting the gays, they are merely saying no to propaganda. This way, even though Russia will be the ugly man here, they aren't gonna get that bad of an image. And the US will be slapping its own face if it takes about Russia is limiting freedom of speech because of Snowden case US has already been humiliating itself a lot because of Snowden, including forcing a presidential plane of another country to land because of a false report that Snowden might be on the plane http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/02/world/americas/bolivia-presidential-plane Or it could be that discriminating against homosexuals is objectively wrong, regardless of what is going on with Snowden. And institutional homophobia in Russia goes far beyond this, although this law defines anything that indicates homosexuality might be a valid life choice as propaganda which is pretty horrific. It's indefensible, it's immoral, it's certainly not protecting children and it has literally nothing to do with Snowden. I am not arguing about whether Russia is treating gays fairly or not. I know how good you can write about what Russia is doing is immoral etc but that's not the point. Most of these big announcements aren't just there suddenly and of no reason at all. Just look at this thread in general. Quite a number of people are already saying Russia isn't doing too bad, they are rejecting the gay's entry, they are against propaganda. Russia is trying to please the US to get over some of the damage the Snowden case has caused. Politics and international relationship are a lot more complicated than a simple event or ideology the russian police stopped recording hate crimes if f.e. gays are beaten to death. u can kill gays and get away with it. is that what u call "being against propaganda"? it's more than that
I somehow doubt the police actually don't care if someone is murdered. They might not record the murder as a "hatecrime", but surely they can't ignore a body? Please note, I have absolutely no clue - it just seems mindblowing if they cover up murders.
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1071 Posts
On August 08 2013 01:10 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 00:52 Denda Reloaded wrote:On August 08 2013 00:50 ETisME wrote:On August 08 2013 00:14 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 00:01 ETisME wrote:everyone seems to mis-reading this. It's not about population growth or equal right limited freedom etc Russia letting snowden to stay resident in the country is a public slap to the US, even if Putin said something like don't leak anything about our friend, the US and you can stay. Basically the US needs something as a retribution, this is one of them. The cleverness of this is actually Russia is NOT rejecting the gays, they are merely saying no to propaganda. This way, even though Russia will be the ugly man here, they aren't gonna get that bad of an image. And the US will be slapping its own face if it takes about Russia is limiting freedom of speech because of Snowden case US has already been humiliating itself a lot because of Snowden, including forcing a presidential plane of another country to land because of a false report that Snowden might be on the plane http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/02/world/americas/bolivia-presidential-plane Or it could be that discriminating against homosexuals is objectively wrong, regardless of what is going on with Snowden. And institutional homophobia in Russia goes far beyond this, although this law defines anything that indicates homosexuality might be a valid life choice as propaganda which is pretty horrific. It's indefensible, it's immoral, it's certainly not protecting children and it has literally nothing to do with Snowden. I am not arguing about whether Russia is treating gays fairly or not. I know how good you can write about what Russia is doing is immoral etc but that's not the point. Most of these big announcements aren't just there suddenly and of no reason at all. Just look at this thread in general. Quite a number of people are already saying Russia isn't doing too bad, they are rejecting the gay's entry, they are against propaganda. Russia is trying to please the US to get over some of the damage the Snowden case has caused. Politics and international relationship are a lot more complicated than a simple event or ideology the russian police stopped recording hate crimes if f.e. gays are beaten to death. u can kill gays and get away with it. is that what u call "being against propaganda"? it's more than that I somehow doubt the police actually don't care if someone is murdered. They might not record the murder as a "hatecrime", but surely they can't ignore a body? Please note, I have absolutely no clue - it just seems mindblowing if they cover up murders.
russia is not just "against propaganda" they would exterminate gays if they could. well there were alot of beatings (one was a nationalist group that hunts down gay teens and then tortures them). a few men were killed. most of those aren't even recorded. i doubt that they react on them. simply nobody cares about hate crimes against gays over there, so there won't be noone to change it.
they aren't actively hiding it or covering it up i think, they secretly find it good when they are killed off and don't bother to punish the ppl who murder them or torture teens wtf?
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On August 08 2013 01:10 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 00:52 Denda Reloaded wrote:On August 08 2013 00:50 ETisME wrote:On August 08 2013 00:14 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 00:01 ETisME wrote:everyone seems to mis-reading this. It's not about population growth or equal right limited freedom etc Russia letting snowden to stay resident in the country is a public slap to the US, even if Putin said something like don't leak anything about our friend, the US and you can stay. Basically the US needs something as a retribution, this is one of them. The cleverness of this is actually Russia is NOT rejecting the gays, they are merely saying no to propaganda. This way, even though Russia will be the ugly man here, they aren't gonna get that bad of an image. And the US will be slapping its own face if it takes about Russia is limiting freedom of speech because of Snowden case US has already been humiliating itself a lot because of Snowden, including forcing a presidential plane of another country to land because of a false report that Snowden might be on the plane http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/02/world/americas/bolivia-presidential-plane Or it could be that discriminating against homosexuals is objectively wrong, regardless of what is going on with Snowden. And institutional homophobia in Russia goes far beyond this, although this law defines anything that indicates homosexuality might be a valid life choice as propaganda which is pretty horrific. It's indefensible, it's immoral, it's certainly not protecting children and it has literally nothing to do with Snowden. I am not arguing about whether Russia is treating gays fairly or not. I know how good you can write about what Russia is doing is immoral etc but that's not the point. Most of these big announcements aren't just there suddenly and of no reason at all. Just look at this thread in general. Quite a number of people are already saying Russia isn't doing too bad, they are rejecting the gay's entry, they are against propaganda. Russia is trying to please the US to get over some of the damage the Snowden case has caused. Politics and international relationship are a lot more complicated than a simple event or ideology the russian police stopped recording hate crimes if f.e. gays are beaten to death. u can kill gays and get away with it. is that what u call "being against propaganda"? it's more than that I somehow doubt the police actually don't care if someone is murdered. They might not record the murder as a "hatecrime", but surely they can't ignore a body? Please note, I have absolutely no clue - it just seems mindblowing if they cover up murders.
They don't have to cover it up as just not really devote resources to it. They just have to not particularly care.
Edit: this isn't at all unusual for cops in any country. Think of it from their point of view. "Why should I care if some [insert slur] gets murdered?"
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1071 Posts
On August 08 2013 01:17 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 01:10 Ghostcom wrote:On August 08 2013 00:52 Denda Reloaded wrote:On August 08 2013 00:50 ETisME wrote:On August 08 2013 00:14 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 00:01 ETisME wrote:everyone seems to mis-reading this. It's not about population growth or equal right limited freedom etc Russia letting snowden to stay resident in the country is a public slap to the US, even if Putin said something like don't leak anything about our friend, the US and you can stay. Basically the US needs something as a retribution, this is one of them. The cleverness of this is actually Russia is NOT rejecting the gays, they are merely saying no to propaganda. This way, even though Russia will be the ugly man here, they aren't gonna get that bad of an image. And the US will be slapping its own face if it takes about Russia is limiting freedom of speech because of Snowden case US has already been humiliating itself a lot because of Snowden, including forcing a presidential plane of another country to land because of a false report that Snowden might be on the plane http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/02/world/americas/bolivia-presidential-plane Or it could be that discriminating against homosexuals is objectively wrong, regardless of what is going on with Snowden. And institutional homophobia in Russia goes far beyond this, although this law defines anything that indicates homosexuality might be a valid life choice as propaganda which is pretty horrific. It's indefensible, it's immoral, it's certainly not protecting children and it has literally nothing to do with Snowden. I am not arguing about whether Russia is treating gays fairly or not. I know how good you can write about what Russia is doing is immoral etc but that's not the point. Most of these big announcements aren't just there suddenly and of no reason at all. Just look at this thread in general. Quite a number of people are already saying Russia isn't doing too bad, they are rejecting the gay's entry, they are against propaganda. Russia is trying to please the US to get over some of the damage the Snowden case has caused. Politics and international relationship are a lot more complicated than a simple event or ideology the russian police stopped recording hate crimes if f.e. gays are beaten to death. u can kill gays and get away with it. is that what u call "being against propaganda"? it's more than that I somehow doubt the police actually don't care if someone is murdered. They might not record the murder as a "hatecrime", but surely they can't ignore a body? Please note, I have absolutely no clue - it just seems mindblowing if they cover up murders. They don't have to cover it up as just not really devote resources to it. They just have to not particularly care.
yes indeed.
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On August 07 2013 22:58 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2013 22:50 MikeMM wrote:On August 07 2013 22:27 Denda Reloaded wrote:On August 07 2013 22:18 MikeMM wrote:On August 07 2013 22:05 Denda Reloaded wrote:On August 07 2013 21:56 MikeMM wrote:On August 07 2013 21:51 marvellosity wrote:On August 07 2013 21:48 MikeMM wrote:On August 07 2013 03:54 ComaDose wrote:On August 07 2013 03:49 Feartheguru wrote:
[quote]
I would like to support the opinion stated ever so eloquently by the contributor called LaContra. It is indeed not the homophobia of one man or possibly one government, it is the homophobia of a whole nation and it is but one part of an ingrained and integral part of the cultural make-up of Eastern European and Russian nations, one that is not going to disappear overnight based on a simple gesture from a nation not long ago considered the enemy and even now considered at best spoiled and liberal.
You may wish for a simple show of solidarity to an oppressed majority or for a show of protest against the Russian political system, however what you will be showing to the overwhelming majority of Russian people is simply that you consider your beliefs, motivations and ways of life better than theirs, you will be showing ingratitude and a bullish attitude. I am really sorry that I can not explain this better, but your wish for a sign of solidarity simply reads to me as childishly spitting in the face of your host (Russian people), because he is unable to accommodate your wish for profound change by a certain deadline.
I don't want a profound change by a certain deadline, I want them to stop actively moving backwards. Why do you think Russia is moving backwards regarding this issue. Maybe its USA that took the wrong course? Just immagine that every single person in USA is gay. You would suggest to let them be? But the country would die in one generation if everybody is gay. Gayness isn't catching. Sorry about that. I know it is not catching, it was theoretical question. And by the way you didnt have answer for it, did you? the fact that those laws won't suddenly change genetics or ensure a lower rate of homosexuals in a state should answer all your questions. laws that are incredibly baseless and against every single detail of science don't make a country look forward-going. Russia is going backwards, sorry :S OK we are talking about genetics now. From genetics perspective gays are normal people or mistake of nature? i just said that none of ur basic laws will change that, get over it. it may even be a mutation, who cares. gays are humans and deserve the same rights + and the right to be happy whatsoever. if all people would be born male we would die out, yes. but some moronic law wouldn't help it. people are born gay or straight, there's nothing more to discuss. laws can oppress gays maybe, but it sure won't get them to impregnate females. the birthrate will continue to fall, russia focusses on the wrong problem. i don't understand how people can seriously think that the us took the wrong direction (i'm not from the US be4 u start hating) concerning that issue. start to accept human nature, whether it's "normal" or not. If you think I hate gays as a whole you are wrong. I support the idea that all humans deservs equal rights. I am not aware that in Russia rights of gay are violated. And this law only forbids propaganda involvement of minors and the youth. There is big difference between tolerance toward gays and propaganda of gay movement. Really? Beacuse the word "propaganda" is normally used to discribe promoting ideas that people don't like. It is really hard to be tolerant toward gays, but then prohibit their ability to protest or post things in support of their rights.
lol propaganda is not just promoting ideas people don't like. It's a form of media manipulation to sway public opinion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda
Propaganda is a form of communication aimed towards influencing the attitude of the community toward some cause or position by presenting only one side of an argument. Propaganda statements may be partly false and partly true. Propaganda is usually repeated and dispersed over a wide variety of media in order to create the chosen result in audience attitudes.
A modern example involving Edward Snowden.....http://www.juancole.com/2013/06/government-whistleblower-snowden.html
Anyways, I kinda view this whole issue as "their house, their rules". Even though I don't really agree with their views on same sex relationships, I can at least understand where they're coming from, particularly for a country with an underpopulation problem.
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On August 08 2013 00:52 Denda Reloaded wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 00:50 ETisME wrote:On August 08 2013 00:14 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 00:01 ETisME wrote:everyone seems to mis-reading this. It's not about population growth or equal right limited freedom etc Russia letting snowden to stay resident in the country is a public slap to the US, even if Putin said something like don't leak anything about our friend, the US and you can stay. Basically the US needs something as a retribution, this is one of them. The cleverness of this is actually Russia is NOT rejecting the gays, they are merely saying no to propaganda. This way, even though Russia will be the ugly man here, they aren't gonna get that bad of an image. And the US will be slapping its own face if it takes about Russia is limiting freedom of speech because of Snowden case US has already been humiliating itself a lot because of Snowden, including forcing a presidential plane of another country to land because of a false report that Snowden might be on the plane http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/02/world/americas/bolivia-presidential-plane Or it could be that discriminating against homosexuals is objectively wrong, regardless of what is going on with Snowden. And institutional homophobia in Russia goes far beyond this, although this law defines anything that indicates homosexuality might be a valid life choice as propaganda which is pretty horrific. It's indefensible, it's immoral, it's certainly not protecting children and it has literally nothing to do with Snowden. I am not arguing about whether Russia is treating gays fairly or not. I know how good you can write about what Russia is doing is immoral etc but that's not the point. Most of these big announcements aren't just there suddenly and of no reason at all. Just look at this thread in general. Quite a number of people are already saying Russia isn't doing too bad, they are rejecting the gay's entry, they are against propaganda. Russia is trying to please the US to get over some of the damage the Snowden case has caused. Politics and international relationship are a lot more complicated than a simple event or ideology the russian police stopped recording hate crimes if f.e. gays are beaten to death. u can kill gays and get away with it. is that what u call "being against propaganda"? it's more than that
I think you are completely missing my point.
What I am saying is that their official stance on this issue is not that important. It's only meant as a way to downplay Russia a little so that the US can save some face after she takes in Snowden.
Whether the gays are treated fairly or brutally murdered isn't exactly the point I am talking about
Why the Russia chose to announce this statement public-ally at this sensitive time is my main point.
Just look at how suddenly everyone's attention to Russia is negative and the US seemingly better as they have just passed the gay marriage right in some states
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1071 Posts
wasn't all the negative attention switched back to the US as the whole snowden debate started?
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russia is sounding better and better
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On August 08 2013 01:43 AnomalySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2013 22:58 Plansix wrote:On August 07 2013 22:50 MikeMM wrote:On August 07 2013 22:27 Denda Reloaded wrote:On August 07 2013 22:18 MikeMM wrote:On August 07 2013 22:05 Denda Reloaded wrote:On August 07 2013 21:56 MikeMM wrote:On August 07 2013 21:51 marvellosity wrote:On August 07 2013 21:48 MikeMM wrote:On August 07 2013 03:54 ComaDose wrote:
[quote]
I don't want a profound change by a certain deadline, I want them to stop actively moving backwards. Why do you think Russia is moving backwards regarding this issue. Maybe its USA that took the wrong course? Just immagine that every single person in USA is gay. You would suggest to let them be? But the country would die in one generation if everybody is gay. Gayness isn't catching. Sorry about that. I know it is not catching, it was theoretical question. And by the way you didnt have answer for it, did you? the fact that those laws won't suddenly change genetics or ensure a lower rate of homosexuals in a state should answer all your questions. laws that are incredibly baseless and against every single detail of science don't make a country look forward-going. Russia is going backwards, sorry :S OK we are talking about genetics now. From genetics perspective gays are normal people or mistake of nature? i just said that none of ur basic laws will change that, get over it. it may even be a mutation, who cares. gays are humans and deserve the same rights + and the right to be happy whatsoever. if all people would be born male we would die out, yes. but some moronic law wouldn't help it. people are born gay or straight, there's nothing more to discuss. laws can oppress gays maybe, but it sure won't get them to impregnate females. the birthrate will continue to fall, russia focusses on the wrong problem. i don't understand how people can seriously think that the us took the wrong direction (i'm not from the US be4 u start hating) concerning that issue. start to accept human nature, whether it's "normal" or not. If you think I hate gays as a whole you are wrong. I support the idea that all humans deservs equal rights. I am not aware that in Russia rights of gay are violated. And this law only forbids propaganda involvement of minors and the youth. There is big difference between tolerance toward gays and propaganda of gay movement. Really? Beacuse the word "propaganda" is normally used to discribe promoting ideas that people don't like. It is really hard to be tolerant toward gays, but then prohibit their ability to protest or post things in support of their rights. I can at least understand where they're coming from, particularly for a country with an underpopulation problem.
Could you clarify? I'd rather make sure I understand you correctly before I respond.
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On August 08 2013 04:53 Powster wrote:
russia is sounding better and better
go. please. leave my continent.
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On August 08 2013 01:17 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 01:10 Ghostcom wrote:On August 08 2013 00:52 Denda Reloaded wrote:On August 08 2013 00:50 ETisME wrote:On August 08 2013 00:14 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 00:01 ETisME wrote:everyone seems to mis-reading this. It's not about population growth or equal right limited freedom etc Russia letting snowden to stay resident in the country is a public slap to the US, even if Putin said something like don't leak anything about our friend, the US and you can stay. Basically the US needs something as a retribution, this is one of them. The cleverness of this is actually Russia is NOT rejecting the gays, they are merely saying no to propaganda. This way, even though Russia will be the ugly man here, they aren't gonna get that bad of an image. And the US will be slapping its own face if it takes about Russia is limiting freedom of speech because of Snowden case US has already been humiliating itself a lot because of Snowden, including forcing a presidential plane of another country to land because of a false report that Snowden might be on the plane http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/02/world/americas/bolivia-presidential-plane Or it could be that discriminating against homosexuals is objectively wrong, regardless of what is going on with Snowden. And institutional homophobia in Russia goes far beyond this, although this law defines anything that indicates homosexuality might be a valid life choice as propaganda which is pretty horrific. It's indefensible, it's immoral, it's certainly not protecting children and it has literally nothing to do with Snowden. I am not arguing about whether Russia is treating gays fairly or not. I know how good you can write about what Russia is doing is immoral etc but that's not the point. Most of these big announcements aren't just there suddenly and of no reason at all. Just look at this thread in general. Quite a number of people are already saying Russia isn't doing too bad, they are rejecting the gay's entry, they are against propaganda. Russia is trying to please the US to get over some of the damage the Snowden case has caused. Politics and international relationship are a lot more complicated than a simple event or ideology the russian police stopped recording hate crimes if f.e. gays are beaten to death. u can kill gays and get away with it. is that what u call "being against propaganda"? it's more than that I somehow doubt the police actually don't care if someone is murdered. They might not record the murder as a "hatecrime", but surely they can't ignore a body? Please note, I have absolutely no clue - it just seems mindblowing if they cover up murders. They don't have to cover it up as just not really devote resources to it. They just have to not particularly care. Edit: this isn't at all unusual for cops in any country. Think of it from their point of view. "Why should I care if some [insert slur] gets murdered?"
That line of thought is just so alien to me. My mind has once again been boggled  Thanks for explaining to both of you though.
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On August 07 2013 21:48 MikeMM wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2013 03:54 ComaDose wrote:On August 07 2013 03:49 Feartheguru wrote:On August 07 2013 03:39 Paljas wrote:On August 07 2013 03:20 Kimaker wrote:On August 07 2013 03:08 qotsager wrote:On August 07 2013 01:34 Kimaker wrote:
It's not like the law is actively pursuing people and putting them in camps for being gay, it's just prohibiting those annoying parades.
even IF that law "only" does that, note it is formulated extremely vaguely and therefor might turn into a convenient excuse for doing just what you said it was not supposed to, there is some really messed up shit going on (as several people have mentioned), directed against the homosexual community, that needs to stop. and if you deem those parades annoying, we should probably outrule any kind of parade ever, cause someone is gonna be annoyed by them. Oh God...shouldn't have written anything.... I'm not saying this from the perspective of "This is what I believe". I'm framing it in terms of Russian sovereignty and different cultural values. What would you have us do? Drive tanks into Russia to protect gay rights? Boycott the Olympics? (never gonna happen in this political climate). If you read my first post all the way through I'm less concerned with Russia and more concerned with how this could be taken advantage of by Western nations (particularly the US) since being upset is just...I don't know, it feels futile? yeah, obama should thank putin for discriminating gays, becasue the USA can take advantage of it. or, you know, he could act like a decent human being and be upset. even tho this feels futile to you. I would like to support the opinion stated ever so eloquently by the contributor called LaContra. It is indeed not the homophobia of one man or possibly one government, it is the homophobia of a whole nation and it is but one part of an ingrained and integral part of the cultural make-up of Eastern European and Russian nations, one that is not going to disappear overnight based on a simple gesture from a nation not long ago considered the enemy and even now considered at best spoiled and liberal. You may wish for a simple show of solidarity to an oppressed majority or for a show of protest against the Russian political system, however what you will be showing to the overwhelming majority of Russian people is simply that you consider your beliefs, motivations and ways of life better than theirs, you will be showing ingratitude and a bullish attitude. I am really sorry that I can not explain this better, but your wish for a sign of solidarity simply reads to me as childishly spitting in the face of your host (Russian people), because he is unable to accommodate your wish for profound change by a certain deadline. I don't want a profound change by a certain deadline, I want them to stop actively moving backwards. Why do you think Russia is moving backwards regarding this issue. Maybe its USA that took the wrong course? Just immagine that every single person in USA is gay. You would suggest to let them be? But the country would die in one generation if everybody is gay.
oh wow. So you are implying that gays don't want kids? Which is totally wrong. Go read at least some basic stuff about homosexuals before judging them.
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1071 Posts
On August 08 2013 05:07 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 01:17 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 01:10 Ghostcom wrote:On August 08 2013 00:52 Denda Reloaded wrote:On August 08 2013 00:50 ETisME wrote:On August 08 2013 00:14 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 00:01 ETisME wrote:everyone seems to mis-reading this. It's not about population growth or equal right limited freedom etc Russia letting snowden to stay resident in the country is a public slap to the US, even if Putin said something like don't leak anything about our friend, the US and you can stay. Basically the US needs something as a retribution, this is one of them. The cleverness of this is actually Russia is NOT rejecting the gays, they are merely saying no to propaganda. This way, even though Russia will be the ugly man here, they aren't gonna get that bad of an image. And the US will be slapping its own face if it takes about Russia is limiting freedom of speech because of Snowden case US has already been humiliating itself a lot because of Snowden, including forcing a presidential plane of another country to land because of a false report that Snowden might be on the plane http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/02/world/americas/bolivia-presidential-plane Or it could be that discriminating against homosexuals is objectively wrong, regardless of what is going on with Snowden. And institutional homophobia in Russia goes far beyond this, although this law defines anything that indicates homosexuality might be a valid life choice as propaganda which is pretty horrific. It's indefensible, it's immoral, it's certainly not protecting children and it has literally nothing to do with Snowden. I am not arguing about whether Russia is treating gays fairly or not. I know how good you can write about what Russia is doing is immoral etc but that's not the point. Most of these big announcements aren't just there suddenly and of no reason at all. Just look at this thread in general. Quite a number of people are already saying Russia isn't doing too bad, they are rejecting the gay's entry, they are against propaganda. Russia is trying to please the US to get over some of the damage the Snowden case has caused. Politics and international relationship are a lot more complicated than a simple event or ideology the russian police stopped recording hate crimes if f.e. gays are beaten to death. u can kill gays and get away with it. is that what u call "being against propaganda"? it's more than that I somehow doubt the police actually don't care if someone is murdered. They might not record the murder as a "hatecrime", but surely they can't ignore a body? Please note, I have absolutely no clue - it just seems mindblowing if they cover up murders. They don't have to cover it up as just not really devote resources to it. They just have to not particularly care. Edit: this isn't at all unusual for cops in any country. Think of it from their point of view. "Why should I care if some [insert slur] gets murdered?" That line of thought is just so alien to me. My mind has once again been boggled Thanks for explaining to both of you though.
np <33 it's only 80% as fucked up as it sounds maybe, coz some countries actually kill 4 beign gay
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We let the North Koreans, who routinely imprison and murder their own citizens by the tens of thousands play in the Olympics...
but pass a law against the gays, and that's where we put our foot down.
Wasn't the whole point of the Olympics to be a distinctly non-political event?
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On August 08 2013 05:19 sc2superfan101 wrote:
We let the North Koreans, who routinely imprison and murder their own citizens by the tens of thousands play in the Olympics...
but pass a law against the gays, and that's where we put our foot down.
Wasn't the whole point of the Olympics to be a distinctly non-political event?
Pffff, we've never taken the apolitical thing that seriously. Honestly if NK was hosting the Olympics we probably wouldn't attend. Think about if Saudi Arabia hosted. Would we attend?
But this isn't a law against gays. It's a law against free speech. And jeopardizes the athletes themselves.
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On August 08 2013 05:19 sc2superfan101 wrote:
We let the North Koreans, who routinely imprison and murder their own citizens by the tens of thousands play in the Olympics...
but pass a law against the gays, and that's where we put our foot down.
Wasn't the whole point of the Olympics to be a distinctly non-political event?
you should totally go support all the injustices that russel your jimmies.
do you think enforcing a new controversial law on invited athletes is less political than being upset about it?
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