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On August 08 2013 04:55 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 01:43 AnomalySC2 wrote:On August 07 2013 22:58 Plansix wrote:On August 07 2013 22:50 MikeMM wrote:On August 07 2013 22:27 Denda Reloaded wrote:On August 07 2013 22:18 MikeMM wrote:On August 07 2013 22:05 Denda Reloaded wrote:On August 07 2013 21:56 MikeMM wrote:On August 07 2013 21:51 marvellosity wrote:On August 07 2013 21:48 MikeMM wrote:
[quote]
Why do you think Russia is moving backwards regarding this issue.
Maybe its USA that took the wrong course?
Just immagine that every single person in USA is gay.
You would suggest to let them be?
But the country would die in one generation if everybody is gay. Gayness isn't catching. Sorry about that. I know it is not catching, it was theoretical question. And by the way you didnt have answer for it, did you? the fact that those laws won't suddenly change genetics or ensure a lower rate of homosexuals in a state should answer all your questions. laws that are incredibly baseless and against every single detail of science don't make a country look forward-going. Russia is going backwards, sorry :S OK we are talking about genetics now. From genetics perspective gays are normal people or mistake of nature? i just said that none of ur basic laws will change that, get over it. it may even be a mutation, who cares. gays are humans and deserve the same rights + and the right to be happy whatsoever. if all people would be born male we would die out, yes. but some moronic law wouldn't help it. people are born gay or straight, there's nothing more to discuss. laws can oppress gays maybe, but it sure won't get them to impregnate females. the birthrate will continue to fall, russia focusses on the wrong problem. i don't understand how people can seriously think that the us took the wrong direction (i'm not from the US be4 u start hating) concerning that issue. start to accept human nature, whether it's "normal" or not. If you think I hate gays as a whole you are wrong. I support the idea that all humans deservs equal rights. I am not aware that in Russia rights of gay are violated. And this law only forbids propaganda involvement of minors and the youth. There is big difference between tolerance toward gays and propaganda of gay movement. Really? Beacuse the word "propaganda" is normally used to discribe promoting ideas that people don't like. It is really hard to be tolerant toward gays, but then prohibit their ability to protest or post things in support of their rights. I can at least understand where they're coming from, particularly for a country with an underpopulation problem. Could you clarify? I'd rather make sure I understand you correctly before I respond.
Countries that have issues with population tend to favor pro-natal policies. In the past, these have been implemented to have a larger standing army or for larger workforces, etc. Pro-natal policies tend to focus around people having multiple children either from the majority ethnicity in the population in order to maintain the population or from the minority slice of the population pie within the population.
The effects of these pro-natal ideals tend to be serious dislike for things that prevent baby birth. These can include: birth control of any kind, lack of government aid for parental abiltity to afford more children, and homosexuality. He's not saying they are right to be this against homosexuality, what he is saying is that the anti-homosexuality attitude has some kind of a background.
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On August 08 2013 07:24 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 07:17 radscorpion9 wrote:On August 08 2013 05:50 sc2superfan101 wrote:On August 08 2013 05:46 ComaDose wrote:On August 08 2013 05:39 sc2superfan101 wrote:On August 08 2013 05:31 ComaDose wrote:On August 08 2013 05:19 sc2superfan101 wrote:
We let the North Koreans, who routinely imprison and murder their own citizens by the tens of thousands play in the Olympics...
but pass a law against the gays, and that's where we put our foot down.
Wasn't the whole point of the Olympics to be a distinctly non-political event? do you think enforcing a new controversial law on invited athletes is less political than being upset about it? Every single country enforces their laws on the athletes who come to participate. are you responding to my question? is your point that we should be fixing the bigger social injustices surrounding the Olympics first? or that we should ignore all problems with the Olympics? My point is that athletics (and athletes) in general should stay out of Geo-political debates. Russia has some ridiculous laws, and this is one of them. You won't get any argument there out of me. Should we use the Olympics as a tool to solve political disputes or make political statements about Russia's nonsensical policies? No. Everyone has a right to protest, including athletes. Athletes are people too, and they have rights. Why shouldn't they use the olympics as a tool to voice their concerns? Aside from the fact that they might end up in a Russian jail, who exactly does it hurt? All the people at home who like being entertained? A country's national pride in its medal count? Its the athletes themselves who stand to lose anything. I say if they're willing to put it on the line to express their beliefs in a high-profile way they should have the right. I would be interested in hearing what reasons you have, because so far it just seems to be a personal opinion based on arbitrary preferences. I agree that people generally shouldn't comment on complex affairs that they know nothing about, but this is a law that is obviously wrong to any sane individual. Athletes are just as capable as anyone else in this regard. did you just call majority of russians insane? just saying, people just love to ride their high horse with their higher moral values and shit on anyone that doesnt think "rationally". people are shaped by the environment they live in, fortunately america has seen plenty of blood to learn their lesson, yet you expect others who hasnt gone through "puberty"(certain experience) to understand and if they dont understand, they're bigoted idiots to russians, this is sane, rational thing to do, protecting what they think is correct. it takes time for them as whole to change their mind supporting equality for all, becoming progressive, however that doesnt mean you get to call them idiots, bigots, fools going back in time. they're just being human.
...????
Because humans can't be idiots, bigots, or fools going back in time? It's not like these things are mutually exclusive.
And again, this is an anti-free-speech law. Not an anti-gay law.
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On August 08 2013 07:28 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 07:24 jinorazi wrote:On August 08 2013 07:17 radscorpion9 wrote:On August 08 2013 05:50 sc2superfan101 wrote:On August 08 2013 05:46 ComaDose wrote:On August 08 2013 05:39 sc2superfan101 wrote:On August 08 2013 05:31 ComaDose wrote:On August 08 2013 05:19 sc2superfan101 wrote:
We let the North Koreans, who routinely imprison and murder their own citizens by the tens of thousands play in the Olympics...
but pass a law against the gays, and that's where we put our foot down.
Wasn't the whole point of the Olympics to be a distinctly non-political event? do you think enforcing a new controversial law on invited athletes is less political than being upset about it? Every single country enforces their laws on the athletes who come to participate. are you responding to my question? is your point that we should be fixing the bigger social injustices surrounding the Olympics first? or that we should ignore all problems with the Olympics? My point is that athletics (and athletes) in general should stay out of Geo-political debates. Russia has some ridiculous laws, and this is one of them. You won't get any argument there out of me. Should we use the Olympics as a tool to solve political disputes or make political statements about Russia's nonsensical policies? No. Everyone has a right to protest, including athletes. Athletes are people too, and they have rights. Why shouldn't they use the olympics as a tool to voice their concerns? Aside from the fact that they might end up in a Russian jail, who exactly does it hurt? All the people at home who like being entertained? A country's national pride in its medal count? Its the athletes themselves who stand to lose anything. I say if they're willing to put it on the line to express their beliefs in a high-profile way they should have the right. I would be interested in hearing what reasons you have, because so far it just seems to be a personal opinion based on arbitrary preferences. I agree that people generally shouldn't comment on complex affairs that they know nothing about, but this is a law that is obviously wrong to any sane individual. Athletes are just as capable as anyone else in this regard. did you just call majority of russians insane? just saying, people just love to ride their high horse with their higher moral values and shit on anyone that doesnt think "rationally". people are shaped by the environment they live in, fortunately america has seen plenty of blood to learn their lesson, yet you expect others who hasnt gone through "puberty"(certain experience) to understand and if they dont understand, they're bigoted idiots to russians, this is sane, rational thing to do, protecting what they think is correct. it takes time for them as whole to change their mind supporting equality for all, becoming progressive, however that doesnt mean you get to call them idiots, bigots, fools going back in time. they're just being human. ...???? Because humans can't be idiots, bigots, or fools going back in time? It's not like these things are mutually exclusive. And again, this is an anti-free-speech law. Not an anti-gay law.
no, i was just pointing out humans are idiots, bigots and fools and people are pointing out the obvious like its mind boggling. and as above, its both anti-gay and anti-speech.
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On August 08 2013 07:30 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 07:28 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:24 jinorazi wrote:On August 08 2013 07:17 radscorpion9 wrote:On August 08 2013 05:50 sc2superfan101 wrote:On August 08 2013 05:46 ComaDose wrote:On August 08 2013 05:39 sc2superfan101 wrote:On August 08 2013 05:31 ComaDose wrote:On August 08 2013 05:19 sc2superfan101 wrote:
We let the North Koreans, who routinely imprison and murder their own citizens by the tens of thousands play in the Olympics...
but pass a law against the gays, and that's where we put our foot down.
Wasn't the whole point of the Olympics to be a distinctly non-political event? do you think enforcing a new controversial law on invited athletes is less political than being upset about it? Every single country enforces their laws on the athletes who come to participate. are you responding to my question? is your point that we should be fixing the bigger social injustices surrounding the Olympics first? or that we should ignore all problems with the Olympics? My point is that athletics (and athletes) in general should stay out of Geo-political debates. Russia has some ridiculous laws, and this is one of them. You won't get any argument there out of me. Should we use the Olympics as a tool to solve political disputes or make political statements about Russia's nonsensical policies? No. Everyone has a right to protest, including athletes. Athletes are people too, and they have rights. Why shouldn't they use the olympics as a tool to voice their concerns? Aside from the fact that they might end up in a Russian jail, who exactly does it hurt? All the people at home who like being entertained? A country's national pride in its medal count? Its the athletes themselves who stand to lose anything. I say if they're willing to put it on the line to express their beliefs in a high-profile way they should have the right. I would be interested in hearing what reasons you have, because so far it just seems to be a personal opinion based on arbitrary preferences. I agree that people generally shouldn't comment on complex affairs that they know nothing about, but this is a law that is obviously wrong to any sane individual. Athletes are just as capable as anyone else in this regard. did you just call majority of russians insane? just saying, people just love to ride their high horse with their higher moral values and shit on anyone that doesnt think "rationally". people are shaped by the environment they live in, fortunately america has seen plenty of blood to learn their lesson, yet you expect others who hasnt gone through "puberty"(certain experience) to understand and if they dont understand, they're bigoted idiots to russians, this is sane, rational thing to do, protecting what they think is correct. it takes time for them as whole to change their mind supporting equality for all, becoming progressive, however that doesnt mean you get to call them idiots, bigots, fools going back in time. they're just being human. ...???? Because humans can't be idiots, bigots, or fools going back in time? It's not like these things are mutually exclusive. And again, this is an anti-free-speech law. Not an anti-gay law. no, i was just pointing out humans are idiots, bigots and fools and people are pointing out the obvious like its mind boggling.
you may say nature but i say society.
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On August 08 2013 07:31 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 07:30 jinorazi wrote:On August 08 2013 07:28 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:24 jinorazi wrote:On August 08 2013 07:17 radscorpion9 wrote:On August 08 2013 05:50 sc2superfan101 wrote:On August 08 2013 05:46 ComaDose wrote:On August 08 2013 05:39 sc2superfan101 wrote:On August 08 2013 05:31 ComaDose wrote:On August 08 2013 05:19 sc2superfan101 wrote:
We let the North Koreans, who routinely imprison and murder their own citizens by the tens of thousands play in the Olympics...
but pass a law against the gays, and that's where we put our foot down.
Wasn't the whole point of the Olympics to be a distinctly non-political event? do you think enforcing a new controversial law on invited athletes is less political than being upset about it? Every single country enforces their laws on the athletes who come to participate. are you responding to my question? is your point that we should be fixing the bigger social injustices surrounding the Olympics first? or that we should ignore all problems with the Olympics? My point is that athletics (and athletes) in general should stay out of Geo-political debates. Russia has some ridiculous laws, and this is one of them. You won't get any argument there out of me. Should we use the Olympics as a tool to solve political disputes or make political statements about Russia's nonsensical policies? No. Everyone has a right to protest, including athletes. Athletes are people too, and they have rights. Why shouldn't they use the olympics as a tool to voice their concerns? Aside from the fact that they might end up in a Russian jail, who exactly does it hurt? All the people at home who like being entertained? A country's national pride in its medal count? Its the athletes themselves who stand to lose anything. I say if they're willing to put it on the line to express their beliefs in a high-profile way they should have the right. I would be interested in hearing what reasons you have, because so far it just seems to be a personal opinion based on arbitrary preferences. I agree that people generally shouldn't comment on complex affairs that they know nothing about, but this is a law that is obviously wrong to any sane individual. Athletes are just as capable as anyone else in this regard. did you just call majority of russians insane? just saying, people just love to ride their high horse with their higher moral values and shit on anyone that doesnt think "rationally". people are shaped by the environment they live in, fortunately america has seen plenty of blood to learn their lesson, yet you expect others who hasnt gone through "puberty"(certain experience) to understand and if they dont understand, they're bigoted idiots to russians, this is sane, rational thing to do, protecting what they think is correct. it takes time for them as whole to change their mind supporting equality for all, becoming progressive, however that doesnt mean you get to call them idiots, bigots, fools going back in time. they're just being human. ...???? Because humans can't be idiots, bigots, or fools going back in time? It's not like these things are mutually exclusive. And again, this is an anti-free-speech law. Not an anti-gay law. no, i was just pointing out humans are idiots, bigots and fools and people are pointing out the obvious like its mind boggling. you may say nature but i say society.
yeah i took out "nature" and originally used it since bigotry is abundant throughout human history.
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On August 08 2013 07:30 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 07:28 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:24 jinorazi wrote:On August 08 2013 07:17 radscorpion9 wrote:On August 08 2013 05:50 sc2superfan101 wrote:On August 08 2013 05:46 ComaDose wrote:On August 08 2013 05:39 sc2superfan101 wrote:On August 08 2013 05:31 ComaDose wrote:On August 08 2013 05:19 sc2superfan101 wrote:
We let the North Koreans, who routinely imprison and murder their own citizens by the tens of thousands play in the Olympics...
but pass a law against the gays, and that's where we put our foot down.
Wasn't the whole point of the Olympics to be a distinctly non-political event? do you think enforcing a new controversial law on invited athletes is less political than being upset about it? Every single country enforces their laws on the athletes who come to participate. are you responding to my question? is your point that we should be fixing the bigger social injustices surrounding the Olympics first? or that we should ignore all problems with the Olympics? My point is that athletics (and athletes) in general should stay out of Geo-political debates. Russia has some ridiculous laws, and this is one of them. You won't get any argument there out of me. Should we use the Olympics as a tool to solve political disputes or make political statements about Russia's nonsensical policies? No. Everyone has a right to protest, including athletes. Athletes are people too, and they have rights. Why shouldn't they use the olympics as a tool to voice their concerns? Aside from the fact that they might end up in a Russian jail, who exactly does it hurt? All the people at home who like being entertained? A country's national pride in its medal count? Its the athletes themselves who stand to lose anything. I say if they're willing to put it on the line to express their beliefs in a high-profile way they should have the right. I would be interested in hearing what reasons you have, because so far it just seems to be a personal opinion based on arbitrary preferences. I agree that people generally shouldn't comment on complex affairs that they know nothing about, but this is a law that is obviously wrong to any sane individual. Athletes are just as capable as anyone else in this regard. did you just call majority of russians insane? just saying, people just love to ride their high horse with their higher moral values and shit on anyone that doesnt think "rationally". people are shaped by the environment they live in, fortunately america has seen plenty of blood to learn their lesson, yet you expect others who hasnt gone through "puberty"(certain experience) to understand and if they dont understand, they're bigoted idiots to russians, this is sane, rational thing to do, protecting what they think is correct. it takes time for them as whole to change their mind supporting equality for all, becoming progressive, however that doesnt mean you get to call them idiots, bigots, fools going back in time. they're just being human. ...???? Because humans can't be idiots, bigots, or fools going back in time? It's not like these things are mutually exclusive. And again, this is an anti-free-speech law. Not an anti-gay law. no, i was just pointing out humans are idiots, bigots and fools and people are pointing out the obvious like its mind boggling. and as above, its both anti-gay and anti-speech.
Don't you think it's weird to say how obvious something is while castigating them for calling other people idiots and fools going back in time?
Think about that one for a second.
Clearly, it's not obvious.
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On August 08 2013 07:31 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 07:31 ComaDose wrote:On August 08 2013 07:30 jinorazi wrote:On August 08 2013 07:28 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:24 jinorazi wrote:On August 08 2013 07:17 radscorpion9 wrote:On August 08 2013 05:50 sc2superfan101 wrote:On August 08 2013 05:46 ComaDose wrote:On August 08 2013 05:39 sc2superfan101 wrote:On August 08 2013 05:31 ComaDose wrote:
[quote]
do you think enforcing a new controversial law on invited athletes is less political than being upset about it? Every single country enforces their laws on the athletes who come to participate. are you responding to my question? is your point that we should be fixing the bigger social injustices surrounding the Olympics first? or that we should ignore all problems with the Olympics? My point is that athletics (and athletes) in general should stay out of Geo-political debates. Russia has some ridiculous laws, and this is one of them. You won't get any argument there out of me. Should we use the Olympics as a tool to solve political disputes or make political statements about Russia's nonsensical policies? No. Everyone has a right to protest, including athletes. Athletes are people too, and they have rights. Why shouldn't they use the olympics as a tool to voice their concerns? Aside from the fact that they might end up in a Russian jail, who exactly does it hurt? All the people at home who like being entertained? A country's national pride in its medal count? Its the athletes themselves who stand to lose anything. I say if they're willing to put it on the line to express their beliefs in a high-profile way they should have the right. I would be interested in hearing what reasons you have, because so far it just seems to be a personal opinion based on arbitrary preferences. I agree that people generally shouldn't comment on complex affairs that they know nothing about, but this is a law that is obviously wrong to any sane individual. Athletes are just as capable as anyone else in this regard. did you just call majority of russians insane? just saying, people just love to ride their high horse with their higher moral values and shit on anyone that doesnt think "rationally". people are shaped by the environment they live in, fortunately america has seen plenty of blood to learn their lesson, yet you expect others who hasnt gone through "puberty"(certain experience) to understand and if they dont understand, they're bigoted idiots to russians, this is sane, rational thing to do, protecting what they think is correct. it takes time for them as whole to change their mind supporting equality for all, becoming progressive, however that doesnt mean you get to call them idiots, bigots, fools going back in time. they're just being human. ...???? Because humans can't be idiots, bigots, or fools going back in time? It's not like these things are mutually exclusive. And again, this is an anti-free-speech law. Not an anti-gay law. no, i was just pointing out humans are idiots, bigots and fools and people are pointing out the obvious like its mind boggling. you may say nature but i say society. yeah i took out "nature" and originally used it since bigotry is abundant throughout human history.
oh cool you even did that before i hit quote and i just didn't notice
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On August 08 2013 07:33 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 07:30 jinorazi wrote:On August 08 2013 07:28 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:24 jinorazi wrote:On August 08 2013 07:17 radscorpion9 wrote:On August 08 2013 05:50 sc2superfan101 wrote:On August 08 2013 05:46 ComaDose wrote:On August 08 2013 05:39 sc2superfan101 wrote:On August 08 2013 05:31 ComaDose wrote:On August 08 2013 05:19 sc2superfan101 wrote:
We let the North Koreans, who routinely imprison and murder their own citizens by the tens of thousands play in the Olympics...
but pass a law against the gays, and that's where we put our foot down.
Wasn't the whole point of the Olympics to be a distinctly non-political event? do you think enforcing a new controversial law on invited athletes is less political than being upset about it? Every single country enforces their laws on the athletes who come to participate. are you responding to my question? is your point that we should be fixing the bigger social injustices surrounding the Olympics first? or that we should ignore all problems with the Olympics? My point is that athletics (and athletes) in general should stay out of Geo-political debates. Russia has some ridiculous laws, and this is one of them. You won't get any argument there out of me. Should we use the Olympics as a tool to solve political disputes or make political statements about Russia's nonsensical policies? No. Everyone has a right to protest, including athletes. Athletes are people too, and they have rights. Why shouldn't they use the olympics as a tool to voice their concerns? Aside from the fact that they might end up in a Russian jail, who exactly does it hurt? All the people at home who like being entertained? A country's national pride in its medal count? Its the athletes themselves who stand to lose anything. I say if they're willing to put it on the line to express their beliefs in a high-profile way they should have the right. I would be interested in hearing what reasons you have, because so far it just seems to be a personal opinion based on arbitrary preferences. I agree that people generally shouldn't comment on complex affairs that they know nothing about, but this is a law that is obviously wrong to any sane individual. Athletes are just as capable as anyone else in this regard. did you just call majority of russians insane? just saying, people just love to ride their high horse with their higher moral values and shit on anyone that doesnt think "rationally". people are shaped by the environment they live in, fortunately america has seen plenty of blood to learn their lesson, yet you expect others who hasnt gone through "puberty"(certain experience) to understand and if they dont understand, they're bigoted idiots to russians, this is sane, rational thing to do, protecting what they think is correct. it takes time for them as whole to change their mind supporting equality for all, becoming progressive, however that doesnt mean you get to call them idiots, bigots, fools going back in time. they're just being human. ...???? Because humans can't be idiots, bigots, or fools going back in time? It's not like these things are mutually exclusive. And again, this is an anti-free-speech law. Not an anti-gay law. no, i was just pointing out humans are idiots, bigots and fools and people are pointing out the obvious like its mind boggling. and as above, its both anti-gay and anti-speech. Don't you think it's weird to say how obvious something is while castigating them for calling other people idiots and fools going back in time? Think about that one for a second. Clearly, it's not obvious.
i dont know how to articulate it
i'm not surprised such law came to be, i dont like it and i oppose it however i dont call russians idiots or bigots because it depends on the perspective. the idea is bigotry but not the people, hard to explain :/
i'm talking in general sense, i'm sure there are westboros of russia but the general people are just acting the way they're "suppose" to behave.
the people are merely acting on what they believe as a society, that doesnt make them idiots or fools however the society is shaped on ideas that is somewhat obsolete to many modern thinkers. however thats just the way it is, so look past the bigotry and try to see common ground (from usa perspective, been there done that so lets try to see what works and what doesnt and try to work it) rather than fighting it head on.
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On August 08 2013 07:24 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 07:17 radscorpion9 wrote:On August 08 2013 05:50 sc2superfan101 wrote:On August 08 2013 05:46 ComaDose wrote:On August 08 2013 05:39 sc2superfan101 wrote:On August 08 2013 05:31 ComaDose wrote:On August 08 2013 05:19 sc2superfan101 wrote:
We let the North Koreans, who routinely imprison and murder their own citizens by the tens of thousands play in the Olympics...
but pass a law against the gays, and that's where we put our foot down.
Wasn't the whole point of the Olympics to be a distinctly non-political event? do you think enforcing a new controversial law on invited athletes is less political than being upset about it? Every single country enforces their laws on the athletes who come to participate. are you responding to my question? is your point that we should be fixing the bigger social injustices surrounding the Olympics first? or that we should ignore all problems with the Olympics? My point is that athletics (and athletes) in general should stay out of Geo-political debates. Russia has some ridiculous laws, and this is one of them. You won't get any argument there out of me. Should we use the Olympics as a tool to solve political disputes or make political statements about Russia's nonsensical policies? No. Everyone has a right to protest, including athletes. Athletes are people too, and they have rights. Why shouldn't they use the olympics as a tool to voice their concerns? Aside from the fact that they might end up in a Russian jail, who exactly does it hurt? All the people at home who like being entertained? A country's national pride in its medal count? Its the athletes themselves who stand to lose anything. I say if they're willing to put it on the line to express their beliefs in a high-profile way they should have the right. I would be interested in hearing what reasons you have, because so far it just seems to be a personal opinion based on arbitrary preferences. I agree that people generally shouldn't comment on complex affairs that they know nothing about, but this is a law that is obviously wrong to any sane individual. Athletes are just as capable as anyone else in this regard. did you just call majority of russians insane? just saying, people just love to ride their high horse with their higher moral values and shit on anyone that doesnt think "rationally". people are shaped by the environment they live in, fortunately america has seen plenty of blood to learn their lesson, yet you expect others who hasnt gone through "puberty"(certain experience) to understand and if they dont understand, they're bigoted idiots to russians, this is sane, rational thing to do, protecting what they think is correct. it takes time for them as whole to change their mind supporting equality for all, becoming progressive, however that doesnt mean you get to call them idiots, bigots, fools going back in time. they're just being human.
Moral relativism is rubbish. We don't owe anything to outdated philosophies. Fact is, this is another example of singling out a group and giving them less rights. There has never been a single issue of such a nature that didn't eventually end up being seen as wrong. They are a nation that is taking a lot longer than other modern nations to get with the program.
I don't see why you don't think they should be criticized for it. What is the harm? What is bad about pointing out the outdatedness of their philosophies?
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On August 08 2013 07:46 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 07:24 jinorazi wrote:On August 08 2013 07:17 radscorpion9 wrote:On August 08 2013 05:50 sc2superfan101 wrote:On August 08 2013 05:46 ComaDose wrote:On August 08 2013 05:39 sc2superfan101 wrote:On August 08 2013 05:31 ComaDose wrote:On August 08 2013 05:19 sc2superfan101 wrote:
We let the North Koreans, who routinely imprison and murder their own citizens by the tens of thousands play in the Olympics...
but pass a law against the gays, and that's where we put our foot down.
Wasn't the whole point of the Olympics to be a distinctly non-political event? do you think enforcing a new controversial law on invited athletes is less political than being upset about it? Every single country enforces their laws on the athletes who come to participate. are you responding to my question? is your point that we should be fixing the bigger social injustices surrounding the Olympics first? or that we should ignore all problems with the Olympics? My point is that athletics (and athletes) in general should stay out of Geo-political debates. Russia has some ridiculous laws, and this is one of them. You won't get any argument there out of me. Should we use the Olympics as a tool to solve political disputes or make political statements about Russia's nonsensical policies? No. Everyone has a right to protest, including athletes. Athletes are people too, and they have rights. Why shouldn't they use the olympics as a tool to voice their concerns? Aside from the fact that they might end up in a Russian jail, who exactly does it hurt? All the people at home who like being entertained? A country's national pride in its medal count? Its the athletes themselves who stand to lose anything. I say if they're willing to put it on the line to express their beliefs in a high-profile way they should have the right. I would be interested in hearing what reasons you have, because so far it just seems to be a personal opinion based on arbitrary preferences. I agree that people generally shouldn't comment on complex affairs that they know nothing about, but this is a law that is obviously wrong to any sane individual. Athletes are just as capable as anyone else in this regard. did you just call majority of russians insane? just saying, people just love to ride their high horse with their higher moral values and shit on anyone that doesnt think "rationally". people are shaped by the environment they live in, fortunately america has seen plenty of blood to learn their lesson, yet you expect others who hasnt gone through "puberty"(certain experience) to understand and if they dont understand, they're bigoted idiots to russians, this is sane, rational thing to do, protecting what they think is correct. it takes time for them as whole to change their mind supporting equality for all, becoming progressive, however that doesnt mean you get to call them idiots, bigots, fools going back in time. they're just being human. Moral relativism is rubbish. We don't owe anything to outdated philosophies. Fact is, this is another example of singling out a group and giving them less rights. There has never been a single issue of such a nature that didn't eventually end up being seen as wrong. They are a nation that is taking a lot longer than other modern nations to get with the program. I don't see why you don't think they should be criticized for it. What is the harm? What is bad about pointing out the outdatedness of their philosophies?
i guess that depends on how its done. if outdated philosophies need to be weeded out, and if its done aggressively, what kind of outcome would it have? do you think majority of earth population would just say "ohhh i see" or would they fight it? religion is a major force in human civilization yet it is "outdated", how do we change this? is it even possible? i'm just saying people are the way they are and i dont know if new ideas can be forced on people. it takes time and sacrifice and there is no short cut imo.
i agree outdated philosophy rule majority, however we can't force this upgraded philosophy on people, i dont think it'll work...so lets work within this confinement we're in instead of openly saying they're wrong, we're right.
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On August 08 2013 07:51 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 07:46 Mohdoo wrote:On August 08 2013 07:24 jinorazi wrote:On August 08 2013 07:17 radscorpion9 wrote:On August 08 2013 05:50 sc2superfan101 wrote:On August 08 2013 05:46 ComaDose wrote:On August 08 2013 05:39 sc2superfan101 wrote:On August 08 2013 05:31 ComaDose wrote:On August 08 2013 05:19 sc2superfan101 wrote:
We let the North Koreans, who routinely imprison and murder their own citizens by the tens of thousands play in the Olympics...
but pass a law against the gays, and that's where we put our foot down.
Wasn't the whole point of the Olympics to be a distinctly non-political event? do you think enforcing a new controversial law on invited athletes is less political than being upset about it? Every single country enforces their laws on the athletes who come to participate. are you responding to my question? is your point that we should be fixing the bigger social injustices surrounding the Olympics first? or that we should ignore all problems with the Olympics? My point is that athletics (and athletes) in general should stay out of Geo-political debates. Russia has some ridiculous laws, and this is one of them. You won't get any argument there out of me. Should we use the Olympics as a tool to solve political disputes or make political statements about Russia's nonsensical policies? No. Everyone has a right to protest, including athletes. Athletes are people too, and they have rights. Why shouldn't they use the olympics as a tool to voice their concerns? Aside from the fact that they might end up in a Russian jail, who exactly does it hurt? All the people at home who like being entertained? A country's national pride in its medal count? Its the athletes themselves who stand to lose anything. I say if they're willing to put it on the line to express their beliefs in a high-profile way they should have the right. I would be interested in hearing what reasons you have, because so far it just seems to be a personal opinion based on arbitrary preferences. I agree that people generally shouldn't comment on complex affairs that they know nothing about, but this is a law that is obviously wrong to any sane individual. Athletes are just as capable as anyone else in this regard. did you just call majority of russians insane? just saying, people just love to ride their high horse with their higher moral values and shit on anyone that doesnt think "rationally". people are shaped by the environment they live in, fortunately america has seen plenty of blood to learn their lesson, yet you expect others who hasnt gone through "puberty"(certain experience) to understand and if they dont understand, they're bigoted idiots to russians, this is sane, rational thing to do, protecting what they think is correct. it takes time for them as whole to change their mind supporting equality for all, becoming progressive, however that doesnt mean you get to call them idiots, bigots, fools going back in time. they're just being human. Moral relativism is rubbish. We don't owe anything to outdated philosophies. Fact is, this is another example of singling out a group and giving them less rights. There has never been a single issue of such a nature that didn't eventually end up being seen as wrong. They are a nation that is taking a lot longer than other modern nations to get with the program. I don't see why you don't think they should be criticized for it. What is the harm? What is bad about pointing out the outdatedness of their philosophies? i guess that depends on how its done. if outdated philosophies need to be weeded out, and if its done aggressively, what kind of outcome would it have? do you think majority of earth population would just say "ohhh i see" or would they fight it? religion is a major force in human civilization yet it is "outdated", how do we change this? is it even possible? i'm just saying people are the way they are and i dont know if new ideas can be forced on people. it takes time and sacrifice and there is no short cut imo. i agree outdated philosophy rule majority, however we can't force this upgraded philosophy on people, i dont think it'll work...so lets work within this confinement we're in instead of openly saying they're wrong, we're right.
People don't need to immediately say "ohhh I see". And it doesn't need to be everyone at once. But consider the extent to which we see religious groups try to spread their messages and influence politics. They are very aggressive. Why should we be any less so? There is not a disadvantage to pushing hard for people to see that discrimination is wrong. There is no disadvantage to offending people, especially when you consider how offensive the ideas being perpetuated by the opposition are. While I understand your point that being aggressive won't immediately make people see the light(lol), there is no disadvantage, and I do think it is helpful.
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On August 08 2013 08:14 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 07:51 jinorazi wrote:On August 08 2013 07:46 Mohdoo wrote:On August 08 2013 07:24 jinorazi wrote:On August 08 2013 07:17 radscorpion9 wrote:On August 08 2013 05:50 sc2superfan101 wrote:On August 08 2013 05:46 ComaDose wrote:On August 08 2013 05:39 sc2superfan101 wrote:On August 08 2013 05:31 ComaDose wrote:On August 08 2013 05:19 sc2superfan101 wrote:
We let the North Koreans, who routinely imprison and murder their own citizens by the tens of thousands play in the Olympics...
but pass a law against the gays, and that's where we put our foot down.
Wasn't the whole point of the Olympics to be a distinctly non-political event? do you think enforcing a new controversial law on invited athletes is less political than being upset about it? Every single country enforces their laws on the athletes who come to participate. are you responding to my question? is your point that we should be fixing the bigger social injustices surrounding the Olympics first? or that we should ignore all problems with the Olympics? My point is that athletics (and athletes) in general should stay out of Geo-political debates. Russia has some ridiculous laws, and this is one of them. You won't get any argument there out of me. Should we use the Olympics as a tool to solve political disputes or make political statements about Russia's nonsensical policies? No. Everyone has a right to protest, including athletes. Athletes are people too, and they have rights. Why shouldn't they use the olympics as a tool to voice their concerns? Aside from the fact that they might end up in a Russian jail, who exactly does it hurt? All the people at home who like being entertained? A country's national pride in its medal count? Its the athletes themselves who stand to lose anything. I say if they're willing to put it on the line to express their beliefs in a high-profile way they should have the right. I would be interested in hearing what reasons you have, because so far it just seems to be a personal opinion based on arbitrary preferences. I agree that people generally shouldn't comment on complex affairs that they know nothing about, but this is a law that is obviously wrong to any sane individual. Athletes are just as capable as anyone else in this regard. did you just call majority of russians insane? just saying, people just love to ride their high horse with their higher moral values and shit on anyone that doesnt think "rationally". people are shaped by the environment they live in, fortunately america has seen plenty of blood to learn their lesson, yet you expect others who hasnt gone through "puberty"(certain experience) to understand and if they dont understand, they're bigoted idiots to russians, this is sane, rational thing to do, protecting what they think is correct. it takes time for them as whole to change their mind supporting equality for all, becoming progressive, however that doesnt mean you get to call them idiots, bigots, fools going back in time. they're just being human. Moral relativism is rubbish. We don't owe anything to outdated philosophies. Fact is, this is another example of singling out a group and giving them less rights. There has never been a single issue of such a nature that didn't eventually end up being seen as wrong. They are a nation that is taking a lot longer than other modern nations to get with the program. I don't see why you don't think they should be criticized for it. What is the harm? What is bad about pointing out the outdatedness of their philosophies? i guess that depends on how its done. if outdated philosophies need to be weeded out, and if its done aggressively, what kind of outcome would it have? do you think majority of earth population would just say "ohhh i see" or would they fight it? religion is a major force in human civilization yet it is "outdated", how do we change this? is it even possible? i'm just saying people are the way they are and i dont know if new ideas can be forced on people. it takes time and sacrifice and there is no short cut imo. i agree outdated philosophy rule majority, however we can't force this upgraded philosophy on people, i dont think it'll work...so lets work within this confinement we're in instead of openly saying they're wrong, we're right. People don't need to immediately say "ohhh I see". And it doesn't need to be everyone at once. But consider the extent to which we see religious groups try to spread their messages and influence politics. They are very aggressive. Why should we be any less so? There is not a disadvantage to pushing hard for people to see that discrimination is wrong. There is no disadvantage to offending people, especially when you consider how offensive the ideas being perpetuated by the opposition are. While I understand your point that being aggressive won't immediately make people see the light(lol), there is no disadvantage, and I do think it is helpful.
i agree, there wont be any progress if such opposing opinion isn't heard however, it should be voiced with consideration.
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On August 08 2013 07:33 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 07:30 jinorazi wrote:On August 08 2013 07:28 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:24 jinorazi wrote:On August 08 2013 07:17 radscorpion9 wrote:On August 08 2013 05:50 sc2superfan101 wrote:On August 08 2013 05:46 ComaDose wrote:On August 08 2013 05:39 sc2superfan101 wrote:On August 08 2013 05:31 ComaDose wrote:On August 08 2013 05:19 sc2superfan101 wrote:
We let the North Koreans, who routinely imprison and murder their own citizens by the tens of thousands play in the Olympics...
but pass a law against the gays, and that's where we put our foot down.
Wasn't the whole point of the Olympics to be a distinctly non-political event? do you think enforcing a new controversial law on invited athletes is less political than being upset about it? Every single country enforces their laws on the athletes who come to participate. are you responding to my question? is your point that we should be fixing the bigger social injustices surrounding the Olympics first? or that we should ignore all problems with the Olympics? My point is that athletics (and athletes) in general should stay out of Geo-political debates. Russia has some ridiculous laws, and this is one of them. You won't get any argument there out of me. Should we use the Olympics as a tool to solve political disputes or make political statements about Russia's nonsensical policies? No. Everyone has a right to protest, including athletes. Athletes are people too, and they have rights. Why shouldn't they use the olympics as a tool to voice their concerns? Aside from the fact that they might end up in a Russian jail, who exactly does it hurt? All the people at home who like being entertained? A country's national pride in its medal count? Its the athletes themselves who stand to lose anything. I say if they're willing to put it on the line to express their beliefs in a high-profile way they should have the right. I would be interested in hearing what reasons you have, because so far it just seems to be a personal opinion based on arbitrary preferences. I agree that people generally shouldn't comment on complex affairs that they know nothing about, but this is a law that is obviously wrong to any sane individual. Athletes are just as capable as anyone else in this regard. did you just call majority of russians insane? just saying, people just love to ride their high horse with their higher moral values and shit on anyone that doesnt think "rationally". people are shaped by the environment they live in, fortunately america has seen plenty of blood to learn their lesson, yet you expect others who hasnt gone through "puberty"(certain experience) to understand and if they dont understand, they're bigoted idiots to russians, this is sane, rational thing to do, protecting what they think is correct. it takes time for them as whole to change their mind supporting equality for all, becoming progressive, however that doesnt mean you get to call them idiots, bigots, fools going back in time. they're just being human. ...???? Because humans can't be idiots, bigots, or fools going back in time? It's not like these things are mutually exclusive. And again, this is an anti-free-speech law. Not an anti-gay law. no, i was just pointing out humans are idiots, bigots and fools and people are pointing out the obvious like its mind boggling. and as above, its both anti-gay and anti-speech. Don't you think it's weird to say how obvious something is while castigating them for calling other people idiots and fools going back in time? Think about that one for a second. Clearly, it's not obvious.
Do you agree that this is anti-gay as well as anti-free speech law?
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On August 08 2013 08:39 Roe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 07:33 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:30 jinorazi wrote:On August 08 2013 07:28 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:24 jinorazi wrote:On August 08 2013 07:17 radscorpion9 wrote:On August 08 2013 05:50 sc2superfan101 wrote:On August 08 2013 05:46 ComaDose wrote:On August 08 2013 05:39 sc2superfan101 wrote:On August 08 2013 05:31 ComaDose wrote:
[quote]
do you think enforcing a new controversial law on invited athletes is less political than being upset about it? Every single country enforces their laws on the athletes who come to participate. are you responding to my question? is your point that we should be fixing the bigger social injustices surrounding the Olympics first? or that we should ignore all problems with the Olympics? My point is that athletics (and athletes) in general should stay out of Geo-political debates. Russia has some ridiculous laws, and this is one of them. You won't get any argument there out of me. Should we use the Olympics as a tool to solve political disputes or make political statements about Russia's nonsensical policies? No. Everyone has a right to protest, including athletes. Athletes are people too, and they have rights. Why shouldn't they use the olympics as a tool to voice their concerns? Aside from the fact that they might end up in a Russian jail, who exactly does it hurt? All the people at home who like being entertained? A country's national pride in its medal count? Its the athletes themselves who stand to lose anything. I say if they're willing to put it on the line to express their beliefs in a high-profile way they should have the right. I would be interested in hearing what reasons you have, because so far it just seems to be a personal opinion based on arbitrary preferences. I agree that people generally shouldn't comment on complex affairs that they know nothing about, but this is a law that is obviously wrong to any sane individual. Athletes are just as capable as anyone else in this regard. did you just call majority of russians insane? just saying, people just love to ride their high horse with their higher moral values and shit on anyone that doesnt think "rationally". people are shaped by the environment they live in, fortunately america has seen plenty of blood to learn their lesson, yet you expect others who hasnt gone through "puberty"(certain experience) to understand and if they dont understand, they're bigoted idiots to russians, this is sane, rational thing to do, protecting what they think is correct. it takes time for them as whole to change their mind supporting equality for all, becoming progressive, however that doesnt mean you get to call them idiots, bigots, fools going back in time. they're just being human. ...???? Because humans can't be idiots, bigots, or fools going back in time? It's not like these things are mutually exclusive. And again, this is an anti-free-speech law. Not an anti-gay law. no, i was just pointing out humans are idiots, bigots and fools and people are pointing out the obvious like its mind boggling. and as above, its both anti-gay and anti-speech. Don't you think it's weird to say how obvious something is while castigating them for calling other people idiots and fools going back in time? Think about that one for a second. Clearly, it's not obvious. Do you agree that this is anti-gay as well as anti-free speech law?
Yea, but the reason it's such a big deal is that it's anti-free-speech. That people will be jailed just for talking about things. That the measures for what constitutes "propaganda" is hilariously arbitrary.
Countries have anti-gay laws all the damn time. America still has a bunch of anti-gay laws. It's not that crazy for countries to have anti-gay laws. But the law they have? Yea, that's crazy. And it's primarily because it's anti-free-speech.
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On August 08 2013 10:44 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 08:39 Roe wrote:On August 08 2013 07:33 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:30 jinorazi wrote:On August 08 2013 07:28 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:24 jinorazi wrote:On August 08 2013 07:17 radscorpion9 wrote:On August 08 2013 05:50 sc2superfan101 wrote:On August 08 2013 05:46 ComaDose wrote:On August 08 2013 05:39 sc2superfan101 wrote:
[quote]
Every single country enforces their laws on the athletes who come to participate. are you responding to my question? is your point that we should be fixing the bigger social injustices surrounding the Olympics first? or that we should ignore all problems with the Olympics? My point is that athletics (and athletes) in general should stay out of Geo-political debates. Russia has some ridiculous laws, and this is one of them. You won't get any argument there out of me. Should we use the Olympics as a tool to solve political disputes or make political statements about Russia's nonsensical policies? No. Everyone has a right to protest, including athletes. Athletes are people too, and they have rights. Why shouldn't they use the olympics as a tool to voice their concerns? Aside from the fact that they might end up in a Russian jail, who exactly does it hurt? All the people at home who like being entertained? A country's national pride in its medal count? Its the athletes themselves who stand to lose anything. I say if they're willing to put it on the line to express their beliefs in a high-profile way they should have the right. I would be interested in hearing what reasons you have, because so far it just seems to be a personal opinion based on arbitrary preferences. I agree that people generally shouldn't comment on complex affairs that they know nothing about, but this is a law that is obviously wrong to any sane individual. Athletes are just as capable as anyone else in this regard. did you just call majority of russians insane? just saying, people just love to ride their high horse with their higher moral values and shit on anyone that doesnt think "rationally". people are shaped by the environment they live in, fortunately america has seen plenty of blood to learn their lesson, yet you expect others who hasnt gone through "puberty"(certain experience) to understand and if they dont understand, they're bigoted idiots to russians, this is sane, rational thing to do, protecting what they think is correct. it takes time for them as whole to change their mind supporting equality for all, becoming progressive, however that doesnt mean you get to call them idiots, bigots, fools going back in time. they're just being human. ...???? Because humans can't be idiots, bigots, or fools going back in time? It's not like these things are mutually exclusive. And again, this is an anti-free-speech law. Not an anti-gay law. no, i was just pointing out humans are idiots, bigots and fools and people are pointing out the obvious like its mind boggling. and as above, its both anti-gay and anti-speech. Don't you think it's weird to say how obvious something is while castigating them for calling other people idiots and fools going back in time? Think about that one for a second. Clearly, it's not obvious. Do you agree that this is anti-gay as well as anti-free speech law? Yea, but the reason it's such a big deal is that it's anti-free-speech. That people will be jailed just for talking about things. That the measures for what constitutes "propaganda" is hilariously arbitrary. Countries have anti-gay laws all the damn time. America still has a bunch of anti-gay laws. It's not that crazy for countries to have anti-gay laws. But the law they have? Yea, that's crazy. And it's primarily because it's anti-free-speech.
I think both anti-gay laws and anti-freespeech laws are crazy.
Both violate what I consider basic human rights.
History won't look kindly on either, IMHO.
That being said, it's not like the current Russian state or previous incarnations were predicated on any sort of humanist ideals.
The Russian-Soviet construct is responsible for one of the most horrific death tolls among non-combatants of any regime in history.
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On August 02 2013 07:01 teddyoojo wrote:
in soviet russia, time moves backwards...
HAHAHAHHAHA made my day
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On August 08 2013 07:17 radscorpion9 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 05:50 sc2superfan101 wrote:On August 08 2013 05:46 ComaDose wrote:On August 08 2013 05:39 sc2superfan101 wrote:On August 08 2013 05:31 ComaDose wrote:On August 08 2013 05:19 sc2superfan101 wrote:
We let the North Koreans, who routinely imprison and murder their own citizens by the tens of thousands play in the Olympics...
but pass a law against the gays, and that's where we put our foot down.
Wasn't the whole point of the Olympics to be a distinctly non-political event? do you think enforcing a new controversial law on invited athletes is less political than being upset about it? Every single country enforces their laws on the athletes who come to participate. are you responding to my question? is your point that we should be fixing the bigger social injustices surrounding the Olympics first? or that we should ignore all problems with the Olympics? My point is that athletics (and athletes) in general should stay out of Geo-political debates. Russia has some ridiculous laws, and this is one of them. You won't get any argument there out of me. Should we use the Olympics as a tool to solve political disputes or make political statements about Russia's nonsensical policies? No. Everyone has a right to protest, including athletes. Athletes are people too, and they have rights. Why shouldn't they use the olympics as a tool to voice their concerns? Aside from the fact that they might end up in a Russian jail, who exactly does it hurt? All the people at home who like being entertained? A country's national pride in its medal count? Its the athletes themselves who stand to lose anything. I say if they're willing to put it on the line to express their beliefs in a high-profile way they should have the right. I would be interested in hearing what reasons you have, because so far it just seems to be a personal opinion based on arbitrary preferences. I agree that people generally shouldn't comment on complex affairs that they know nothing about, but this is a law that is obviously wrong to any sane individual. Athletes are just as capable as anyone else in this regard.
Of course athlete's have the right to protest, and I'm sure some will. I think the hypocrisy of it is unbelievable, as they don't bother protesting much more heinous breaches of human rights and dignity, but it's not surprising that people as uninformed as athlete's usually are will jump on the popular, hot-button issue of the day and ignore the real problems of the world.
Why should they not bother protesting? The same reason any uninformed, public persona should not bother protesting. They are uninformed and their protesting will only add to the buzz of pop-politics. And if they spent their entire lives protesting every wrong in the world they would have no time for their athletics.
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"Gay propaganda" means "saying homosexuals are normal people" or "saying homosexuals aren't evil," it's not just a repressive law on speech it's a law intended to make it harder to humanize gays and easier to dehumanize them.
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Russian Federation221 Posts
On August 08 2013 07:23 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 06:39 ftm wrote:
I really don't get why this is a deal-breaker? Isn't gay rights about tolerance and open mindedness? And, if it is, then aren't we supposed to be tolerant and open-minded towards those who don't support gay rights?
RIP in peace post-modern tolerance. *places hand on heart, looks down in earnest sadness* ????? What the hell are you talking about? This is a law that bans open support for gay rights. It's an anti-free-speech law. And you're saying it's intolerant to reject that????? I have to be tolerant of people silencing me???? What the hell kind of warped language are you using? You shouldn't be able to use words with the way you treat them.
What the hell are you talking about?
Gays in Russia have as many rights as other people.
They have right to work, study, have medical care and other various rights.
And about the issue of silencing.
All the countries silence opposition.
Didnt USA silence Maning and Snowden?
This law doesn’t prevent gays from demanding their rights, it prevents them from demanding privileges.
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EPT
