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On May 10 2015 04:44 WhiteDog wrote:
The Europe is the most hated institution of europe, and still governing like everything is okay. Heck more than half of the deputee that France sent to europe are for the end of europe lol.
The EU could make it rain Manna from the heavens and everybody would hate them. Opinion about the EU has very little to do with what the EU actually does(which isn't that much really) and more with the fact that every European success has been claimed by national governments while every failure is being shifted on Brussels.
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On May 10 2015 04:47 KelsierSC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2015 04:44 WhiteDog wrote:On May 10 2015 04:41 Nyxisto wrote:On May 10 2015 04:33 WhiteDog wrote:On May 10 2015 04:27 Nyxisto wrote:
I think it's a little weird that the UK on a European level stresses the importance of sovereignty this much while it is the exact same thing that has nearly driven Scotland out of their own Union, with the exact same argument, namely that the larger structure only has their own best interest at heart and is hurting the periphery. I don't think you can be in favour of a strong unified UK and try to weaken European integration at the same time. The UK is an exemple of democracy. Look at the last election, most head of the movement that did wrong just left the momvent, taking responsability for the loss. It's pretty impossible to compare it to the EU, which is not a democratic institution. Just take it into consideration : Scotland is in the UK since way more than any european countries, and they can leave after just a vote, while there are no possible way to permit a country from leaving the euro. I'm not sure that is the kind of democracy I want. Breaking up a country that has hundreds of years of common history or more just because you're currently unhappy maybe isn't the smartest decision. You can vote yourself out really quickly but you're not going to get back in again that fast. And about politicians leaving, on the one hand people always ask for more honesty in politics,but if you want that you can't just chop everybody's head off. I'd rather see some politician correct their mistakes than to swap them out every two years. What you'd rather do or desire is irrelevant to the point. The fact is, most european countries are plagued with politician that never leave office despite various blunder - current France is a good exemple of that, with a president having lost all elections since his own and having 19 % of support in all polls. The Europe is the most hated institution of europe, and still governing like everything is okay. Heck more than half of the deputee that France sent to europe are for the end of europe lol. On May 10 2015 04:42 KelsierSC wrote:On May 10 2015 04:38 WhiteDog wrote:On May 10 2015 04:35 KelsierSC wrote:On May 10 2015 04:33 WhiteDog wrote:On May 10 2015 04:27 Nyxisto wrote:
I think it's a little weird that the UK on a European level stresses the importance of sovereignty this much while it is the exact same thing that has nearly driven Scotland out of their own Union, with the exact same argument, namely that the larger structure only has their own best interest at heart and is hurting the periphery. I don't think you can be in favour of a strong unified UK and try to weaken European integration at the same time. The UK is an exemple of democracy. Look at the last election, most head of the movement that did wrong just left the momvent, taking responsability for the loss. It's pretty impossible to compare it to the EU, which is not a democratic institution. Just take it into consideration : Scotland is in the UK since way more than any european countries, and they can leave after just a vote, while there are no possible way to permit a country from leaving the euro. ugh what? You think you can change europe from the inside ? You think the citizen of england believe that they can influence the evolution of europe through their vote ? well the link between the United Kingdom and Brussels was a major discussion point during the election campaign so yes. People who believe that are naïve. well we will see what happens over the next few years.
The next few years ? Do you know how many years people have been arguing for a chance of europe ? Mitterand was already arguing for a chance of europe in 1987... lol.
On May 10 2015 04:49 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2015 04:44 WhiteDog wrote:
The Europe is the most hated institution of europe, and still governing like everything is okay. Heck more than half of the deputee that France sent to europe are for the end of europe lol.
The EU could make it rain Manna from the heavens and everybody would hate them. Opinion about the EU has very little to do with what the EU actually does(which isn't that much really) and more with the fact that every European success has been claimed by national governments while every failure is being shifted on Brussels.
The EU didn't do anything and is the region that lost the most due to its own incapacity to face the crisis. How can you even consider it a good argument to point out the supposed good that the europe give to its people considering the unemployment rate and the current situation is mindblowing.
And your arguments are false, people also dislike their government. I just showed you french heavily resent the current president (just like they resented the previous government) for not doing what he was elected for.
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United Kingdom10443 Posts
I'm proud that the UK decided to reelect the government that continues with the economic plan that has been succesful so far. Despite the Austerity measures,most of the country has tightened its collective belt and carried on.
Hopefully other european countries will follow this model rather than elect ; short sighted, anti-austerity parties. Who will plunge their countries into deeper decline.
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United Kingdom10443 Posts
On May 10 2015 04:49 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2015 04:47 KelsierSC wrote:On May 10 2015 04:44 WhiteDog wrote:On May 10 2015 04:41 Nyxisto wrote:On May 10 2015 04:33 WhiteDog wrote:On May 10 2015 04:27 Nyxisto wrote:
I think it's a little weird that the UK on a European level stresses the importance of sovereignty this much while it is the exact same thing that has nearly driven Scotland out of their own Union, with the exact same argument, namely that the larger structure only has their own best interest at heart and is hurting the periphery. I don't think you can be in favour of a strong unified UK and try to weaken European integration at the same time. The UK is an exemple of democracy. Look at the last election, most head of the movement that did wrong just left the momvent, taking responsability for the loss. It's pretty impossible to compare it to the EU, which is not a democratic institution. Just take it into consideration : Scotland is in the UK since way more than any european countries, and they can leave after just a vote, while there are no possible way to permit a country from leaving the euro. I'm not sure that is the kind of democracy I want. Breaking up a country that has hundreds of years of common history or more just because you're currently unhappy maybe isn't the smartest decision. You can vote yourself out really quickly but you're not going to get back in again that fast. And about politicians leaving, on the one hand people always ask for more honesty in politics,but if you want that you can't just chop everybody's head off. I'd rather see some politician correct their mistakes than to swap them out every two years. What you'd rather do or desire is irrelevant to the point. The fact is, most european countries are plagued with politician that never leave office despite various blunder - current France is a good exemple of that, with a president having lost all elections since his own and having 19 % of support in all polls. The Europe is the most hated institution of europe, and still governing like everything is okay. Heck more than half of the deputee that France sent to europe are for the end of europe lol. On May 10 2015 04:42 KelsierSC wrote:On May 10 2015 04:38 WhiteDog wrote:On May 10 2015 04:35 KelsierSC wrote:On May 10 2015 04:33 WhiteDog wrote:On May 10 2015 04:27 Nyxisto wrote:
I think it's a little weird that the UK on a European level stresses the importance of sovereignty this much while it is the exact same thing that has nearly driven Scotland out of their own Union, with the exact same argument, namely that the larger structure only has their own best interest at heart and is hurting the periphery. I don't think you can be in favour of a strong unified UK and try to weaken European integration at the same time. The UK is an exemple of democracy. Look at the last election, most head of the movement that did wrong just left the momvent, taking responsability for the loss. It's pretty impossible to compare it to the EU, which is not a democratic institution. Just take it into consideration : Scotland is in the UK since way more than any european countries, and they can leave after just a vote, while there are no possible way to permit a country from leaving the euro. ugh what? You think you can change europe from the inside ? You think the citizen of england believe that they can influence the evolution of europe through their vote ? well the link between the United Kingdom and Brussels was a major discussion point during the election campaign so yes. People who believe that are naïve. well we will see what happens over the next few years. The next few years ? Do you know how many years people have been arguing for a chance of europe ? Mitterand was already arguing for a chance of europe in 1987... lol.
I'm talking about the UK government and electorate.
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On May 10 2015 04:49 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2015 04:47 KelsierSC wrote:On May 10 2015 04:44 WhiteDog wrote:On May 10 2015 04:41 Nyxisto wrote:On May 10 2015 04:33 WhiteDog wrote:On May 10 2015 04:27 Nyxisto wrote:
I think it's a little weird that the UK on a European level stresses the importance of sovereignty this much while it is the exact same thing that has nearly driven Scotland out of their own Union, with the exact same argument, namely that the larger structure only has their own best interest at heart and is hurting the periphery. I don't think you can be in favour of a strong unified UK and try to weaken European integration at the same time. The UK is an exemple of democracy. Look at the last election, most head of the movement that did wrong just left the momvent, taking responsability for the loss. It's pretty impossible to compare it to the EU, which is not a democratic institution. Just take it into consideration : Scotland is in the UK since way more than any european countries, and they can leave after just a vote, while there are no possible way to permit a country from leaving the euro. I'm not sure that is the kind of democracy I want. Breaking up a country that has hundreds of years of common history or more just because you're currently unhappy maybe isn't the smartest decision. You can vote yourself out really quickly but you're not going to get back in again that fast. And about politicians leaving, on the one hand people always ask for more honesty in politics,but if you want that you can't just chop everybody's head off. I'd rather see some politician correct their mistakes than to swap them out every two years. What you'd rather do or desire is irrelevant to the point. The fact is, most european countries are plagued with politician that never leave office despite various blunder - current France is a good exemple of that, with a president having lost all elections since his own and having 19 % of support in all polls. The Europe is the most hated institution of europe, and still governing like everything is okay. Heck more than half of the deputee that France sent to europe are for the end of europe lol. On May 10 2015 04:42 KelsierSC wrote:On May 10 2015 04:38 WhiteDog wrote:On May 10 2015 04:35 KelsierSC wrote:On May 10 2015 04:33 WhiteDog wrote:On May 10 2015 04:27 Nyxisto wrote:
I think it's a little weird that the UK on a European level stresses the importance of sovereignty this much while it is the exact same thing that has nearly driven Scotland out of their own Union, with the exact same argument, namely that the larger structure only has their own best interest at heart and is hurting the periphery. I don't think you can be in favour of a strong unified UK and try to weaken European integration at the same time. The UK is an exemple of democracy. Look at the last election, most head of the movement that did wrong just left the momvent, taking responsability for the loss. It's pretty impossible to compare it to the EU, which is not a democratic institution. Just take it into consideration : Scotland is in the UK since way more than any european countries, and they can leave after just a vote, while there are no possible way to permit a country from leaving the euro. ugh what? You think you can change europe from the inside ? You think the citizen of england believe that they can influence the evolution of europe through their vote ? well the link between the United Kingdom and Brussels was a major discussion point during the election campaign so yes. People who believe that are naïve. well we will see what happens over the next few years. The next few years ? Do you know how many years people have been arguing for a chance of europe ? Mitterand was already arguing for a chance of europe in 1987... lol. Show nested quote +On May 10 2015 04:49 Nyxisto wrote:On May 10 2015 04:44 WhiteDog wrote:
The Europe is the most hated institution of europe, and still governing like everything is okay. Heck more than half of the deputee that France sent to europe are for the end of europe lol.
The EU could make it rain Manna from the heavens and everybody would hate them. Opinion about the EU has very little to do with what the EU actually does(which isn't that much really) and more with the fact that every European success has been claimed by national governments while every failure is being shifted on Brussels. The EU didn't do anything and is the region that lost the most due to its own incapacity to face the crisis. How can you even consider it a good argument to point out the supposed good that the europe give to its people considering the unemployment rate and the current situation is mindblowing. And your arguments are false, people also dislike their government. I just showed you french heavily resent the current president (just like they resented the previous government) for not doing what he was elected for.
Has there ever been a country where everyone was happy with the government? Seems pretty much impossible to me.
Edit: And by everyone I of course mean most people or the popular opinion 
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On May 10 2015 05:03 jello_biafra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2015 04:49 WhiteDog wrote:On May 10 2015 04:47 KelsierSC wrote:On May 10 2015 04:44 WhiteDog wrote:On May 10 2015 04:41 Nyxisto wrote:On May 10 2015 04:33 WhiteDog wrote:On May 10 2015 04:27 Nyxisto wrote:
I think it's a little weird that the UK on a European level stresses the importance of sovereignty this much while it is the exact same thing that has nearly driven Scotland out of their own Union, with the exact same argument, namely that the larger structure only has their own best interest at heart and is hurting the periphery. I don't think you can be in favour of a strong unified UK and try to weaken European integration at the same time. The UK is an exemple of democracy. Look at the last election, most head of the movement that did wrong just left the momvent, taking responsability for the loss. It's pretty impossible to compare it to the EU, which is not a democratic institution. Just take it into consideration : Scotland is in the UK since way more than any european countries, and they can leave after just a vote, while there are no possible way to permit a country from leaving the euro. I'm not sure that is the kind of democracy I want. Breaking up a country that has hundreds of years of common history or more just because you're currently unhappy maybe isn't the smartest decision. You can vote yourself out really quickly but you're not going to get back in again that fast. And about politicians leaving, on the one hand people always ask for more honesty in politics,but if you want that you can't just chop everybody's head off. I'd rather see some politician correct their mistakes than to swap them out every two years. What you'd rather do or desire is irrelevant to the point. The fact is, most european countries are plagued with politician that never leave office despite various blunder - current France is a good exemple of that, with a president having lost all elections since his own and having 19 % of support in all polls. The Europe is the most hated institution of europe, and still governing like everything is okay. Heck more than half of the deputee that France sent to europe are for the end of europe lol. On May 10 2015 04:42 KelsierSC wrote:On May 10 2015 04:38 WhiteDog wrote:On May 10 2015 04:35 KelsierSC wrote:On May 10 2015 04:33 WhiteDog wrote:On May 10 2015 04:27 Nyxisto wrote:
I think it's a little weird that the UK on a European level stresses the importance of sovereignty this much while it is the exact same thing that has nearly driven Scotland out of their own Union, with the exact same argument, namely that the larger structure only has their own best interest at heart and is hurting the periphery. I don't think you can be in favour of a strong unified UK and try to weaken European integration at the same time. The UK is an exemple of democracy. Look at the last election, most head of the movement that did wrong just left the momvent, taking responsability for the loss. It's pretty impossible to compare it to the EU, which is not a democratic institution. Just take it into consideration : Scotland is in the UK since way more than any european countries, and they can leave after just a vote, while there are no possible way to permit a country from leaving the euro. ugh what? You think you can change europe from the inside ? You think the citizen of england believe that they can influence the evolution of europe through their vote ? well the link between the United Kingdom and Brussels was a major discussion point during the election campaign so yes. People who believe that are naïve. well we will see what happens over the next few years. The next few years ? Do you know how many years people have been arguing for a chance of europe ? Mitterand was already arguing for a chance of europe in 1987... lol. On May 10 2015 04:49 Nyxisto wrote:On May 10 2015 04:44 WhiteDog wrote:
The Europe is the most hated institution of europe, and still governing like everything is okay. Heck more than half of the deputee that France sent to europe are for the end of europe lol.
The EU could make it rain Manna from the heavens and everybody would hate them. Opinion about the EU has very little to do with what the EU actually does(which isn't that much really) and more with the fact that every European success has been claimed by national governments while every failure is being shifted on Brussels. The EU didn't do anything and is the region that lost the most due to its own incapacity to face the crisis. How can you even consider it a good argument to point out the supposed good that the europe give to its people considering the unemployment rate and the current situation is mindblowing. And your arguments are false, people also dislike their government. I just showed you french heavily resent the current president (just like they resented the previous government) for not doing what he was elected for. Has there ever been a country where everyone was happy with the government? Seems pretty much impossible to me.
The current level of resentment and abstention from voting are way higher than it was 20 or 30 years ago in europe tho. It's pretty clear if you look at it.
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On May 10 2015 04:49 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2015 04:47 KelsierSC wrote:On May 10 2015 04:44 WhiteDog wrote:On May 10 2015 04:41 Nyxisto wrote:On May 10 2015 04:33 WhiteDog wrote:On May 10 2015 04:27 Nyxisto wrote:
I think it's a little weird that the UK on a European level stresses the importance of sovereignty this much while it is the exact same thing that has nearly driven Scotland out of their own Union, with the exact same argument, namely that the larger structure only has their own best interest at heart and is hurting the periphery. I don't think you can be in favour of a strong unified UK and try to weaken European integration at the same time. The UK is an exemple of democracy. Look at the last election, most head of the movement that did wrong just left the momvent, taking responsability for the loss. It's pretty impossible to compare it to the EU, which is not a democratic institution. Just take it into consideration : Scotland is in the UK since way more than any european countries, and they can leave after just a vote, while there are no possible way to permit a country from leaving the euro. I'm not sure that is the kind of democracy I want. Breaking up a country that has hundreds of years of common history or more just because you're currently unhappy maybe isn't the smartest decision. You can vote yourself out really quickly but you're not going to get back in again that fast. And about politicians leaving, on the one hand people always ask for more honesty in politics,but if you want that you can't just chop everybody's head off. I'd rather see some politician correct their mistakes than to swap them out every two years. What you'd rather do or desire is irrelevant to the point. The fact is, most european countries are plagued with politician that never leave office despite various blunder - current France is a good exemple of that, with a president having lost all elections since his own and having 19 % of support in all polls. The Europe is the most hated institution of europe, and still governing like everything is okay. Heck more than half of the deputee that France sent to europe are for the end of europe lol. On May 10 2015 04:42 KelsierSC wrote:On May 10 2015 04:38 WhiteDog wrote:On May 10 2015 04:35 KelsierSC wrote:On May 10 2015 04:33 WhiteDog wrote:On May 10 2015 04:27 Nyxisto wrote:
I think it's a little weird that the UK on a European level stresses the importance of sovereignty this much while it is the exact same thing that has nearly driven Scotland out of their own Union, with the exact same argument, namely that the larger structure only has their own best interest at heart and is hurting the periphery. I don't think you can be in favour of a strong unified UK and try to weaken European integration at the same time. The UK is an exemple of democracy. Look at the last election, most head of the movement that did wrong just left the momvent, taking responsability for the loss. It's pretty impossible to compare it to the EU, which is not a democratic institution. Just take it into consideration : Scotland is in the UK since way more than any european countries, and they can leave after just a vote, while there are no possible way to permit a country from leaving the euro. ugh what? You think you can change europe from the inside ? You think the citizen of england believe that they can influence the evolution of europe through their vote ? well the link between the United Kingdom and Brussels was a major discussion point during the election campaign so yes. People who believe that are naïve. well we will see what happens over the next few years. The next few years ? Do you know how many years people have been arguing for a chance of europe ? Mitterand was already arguing for a chance of europe in 1987... lol. Show nested quote +On May 10 2015 04:49 Nyxisto wrote:On May 10 2015 04:44 WhiteDog wrote:
The Europe is the most hated institution of europe, and still governing like everything is okay. Heck more than half of the deputee that France sent to europe are for the end of europe lol.
The EU could make it rain Manna from the heavens and everybody would hate them. Opinion about the EU has very little to do with what the EU actually does(which isn't that much really) and more with the fact that every European success has been claimed by national governments while every failure is being shifted on Brussels. The EU didn't do anything and is the region that lost the most due to its own incapacity to face the crisis. How can you even consider it a good argument to point out the supposed good that the europe give to its people considering the unemployment rate and the current situation is mindblowing. And your arguments are false, people also dislike their government. I just showed you french heavily resent the current president (just like they resented the previous government) for not doing what he was elected for.
What do you even mean by "the region that lost the most"? Whatever it is, it is of course all the fault of the EU.
France unemployment rate
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NbAWI2g.gif)
GDP per capita, Japan for reference (a developed economy like France)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qfAjpty.gif)
Feel free to point out the catastrophic influence of the EU in the historic numbers.
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On May 14 2015 04:27 Maenander wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2015 04:49 WhiteDog wrote:On May 10 2015 04:47 KelsierSC wrote:On May 10 2015 04:44 WhiteDog wrote:On May 10 2015 04:41 Nyxisto wrote:On May 10 2015 04:33 WhiteDog wrote:On May 10 2015 04:27 Nyxisto wrote:
I think it's a little weird that the UK on a European level stresses the importance of sovereignty this much while it is the exact same thing that has nearly driven Scotland out of their own Union, with the exact same argument, namely that the larger structure only has their own best interest at heart and is hurting the periphery. I don't think you can be in favour of a strong unified UK and try to weaken European integration at the same time. The UK is an exemple of democracy. Look at the last election, most head of the movement that did wrong just left the momvent, taking responsability for the loss. It's pretty impossible to compare it to the EU, which is not a democratic institution. Just take it into consideration : Scotland is in the UK since way more than any european countries, and they can leave after just a vote, while there are no possible way to permit a country from leaving the euro. I'm not sure that is the kind of democracy I want. Breaking up a country that has hundreds of years of common history or more just because you're currently unhappy maybe isn't the smartest decision. You can vote yourself out really quickly but you're not going to get back in again that fast. And about politicians leaving, on the one hand people always ask for more honesty in politics,but if you want that you can't just chop everybody's head off. I'd rather see some politician correct their mistakes than to swap them out every two years. What you'd rather do or desire is irrelevant to the point. The fact is, most european countries are plagued with politician that never leave office despite various blunder - current France is a good exemple of that, with a president having lost all elections since his own and having 19 % of support in all polls. The Europe is the most hated institution of europe, and still governing like everything is okay. Heck more than half of the deputee that France sent to europe are for the end of europe lol. On May 10 2015 04:42 KelsierSC wrote:On May 10 2015 04:38 WhiteDog wrote:On May 10 2015 04:35 KelsierSC wrote:On May 10 2015 04:33 WhiteDog wrote:On May 10 2015 04:27 Nyxisto wrote:
I think it's a little weird that the UK on a European level stresses the importance of sovereignty this much while it is the exact same thing that has nearly driven Scotland out of their own Union, with the exact same argument, namely that the larger structure only has their own best interest at heart and is hurting the periphery. I don't think you can be in favour of a strong unified UK and try to weaken European integration at the same time. The UK is an exemple of democracy. Look at the last election, most head of the movement that did wrong just left the momvent, taking responsability for the loss. It's pretty impossible to compare it to the EU, which is not a democratic institution. Just take it into consideration : Scotland is in the UK since way more than any european countries, and they can leave after just a vote, while there are no possible way to permit a country from leaving the euro. ugh what? You think you can change europe from the inside ? You think the citizen of england believe that they can influence the evolution of europe through their vote ? well the link between the United Kingdom and Brussels was a major discussion point during the election campaign so yes. People who believe that are naïve. well we will see what happens over the next few years. The next few years ? Do you know how many years people have been arguing for a chance of europe ? Mitterand was already arguing for a chance of europe in 1987... lol. On May 10 2015 04:49 Nyxisto wrote:On May 10 2015 04:44 WhiteDog wrote:
The Europe is the most hated institution of europe, and still governing like everything is okay. Heck more than half of the deputee that France sent to europe are for the end of europe lol.
The EU could make it rain Manna from the heavens and everybody would hate them. Opinion about the EU has very little to do with what the EU actually does(which isn't that much really) and more with the fact that every European success has been claimed by national governments while every failure is being shifted on Brussels. The EU didn't do anything and is the region that lost the most due to its own incapacity to face the crisis. How can you even consider it a good argument to point out the supposed good that the europe give to its people considering the unemployment rate and the current situation is mindblowing. And your arguments are false, people also dislike their government. I just showed you french heavily resent the current president (just like they resented the previous government) for not doing what he was elected for. What do you even mean by "the region that lost the most"? Whatever it is, it is of course all the fault of the EU. France unemployment rate GDP per capita, Japan for reference (a developed economy like France) Feel free to point out the catastrophic influence of the EU in the historic numbers.
Japan has been an economic basket case for 2 decades now its hardly a great comparison to be making.
In other news
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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
he was a good man. one of the few politicians i could listen talk about something without going "well this is just terrible"
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United States43533 Posts
On June 02 2015 19:11 marvellosity wrote:he was a good man. one of the few politicians i could listen talk about something without going "well this is just terrible"
When the expenses scandal hit and the thieves cried out "everyone was doing it, it was just a perk of the job" as if that made their robbing from the public purse somehow better Charles Kennedy was the one who shamed them without saying a word. He was an honest politician and that makes him rarer than a unicorn.
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United States43533 Posts
So, some background. One of the core issues the SNP has always cared about was that Westminster, the sovereign Parliament of the UK, was dominated by the English and therefore Westminster is not able to adequately represent Scotland. For example if Maggie wanted to give the Poll Tax a trial run in Scotland then she was able to, despite the fact that the Scottish didn't want it. They were right about how undemocratic this was and everyone generally accepted that they were right and so Scotland were given their own parliament with their own elected representatives in it for dealing with Scottish issues.
And so we end up with an odd system where Scottish issues are dealt with by the Scottish in the Scottish parliament and English issues are dealt with by the British and Northern Irish at Westminster (along with issues that impact the entire UK). And today the SNP have announced that they are going to use their voting block to overrule the Conservative Party, currently the government of the UK, on an issue that specifically only impacts the English and Welsh and was also one of their manifesto promises.
This is literally everything the SNP were founded to stop. The SNP were right that the arrogant "we know how to rule Scotland better than those Scots" attitude was bullshit. They were right that Scotland needed its own parliament to deal with Scottish issues. And yet here they are, sitting in Westminster announcing that they know so much better than the English MPs about how to rule England that they're going to overrule the Conservative Party which was elected to a huge majority in England, albeit only a narrow one across the UK. Conservatives have 322 seats in England (I believe, don't quote me on that) out of 533.
It's a bit of a constitutional crisis.
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On July 15 2015 01:04 KwarK wrote:
So, some background. One of the core issues the SNP has always cared about was that Westminster, the sovereign Parliament of the UK, was dominated by the English and therefore Westminster is not able to adequately represent Scotland. For example if Maggie wanted to give the Poll Tax a trial run in Scotland then she was able to, despite the fact that the Scottish didn't want it. They were right about how undemocratic this was and everyone generally accepted that they were right and so Scotland were given their own parliament with their own elected representatives in it for dealing with Scottish issues.
And so we end up with an odd system where Scottish issues are dealt with by the Scottish in the Scottish parliament and English issues are dealt with by the British and Northern Irish at Westminster (along with issues that impact the entire UK). And today the SNP have announced that they are going to use their voting block to overrule the Conservative Party, currently the government of the UK, on an issue that specifically only impacts the English and Welsh and was also one of their manifesto promises.
This is literally everything the SNP were founded to stop. The SNP were right that the arrogant "we know how to rule Scotland better than those Scots" attitude was bullshit. They were right that Scotland needed its own parliament to deal with Scottish issues. And yet here they are, sitting in Westminster announcing that they know so much better than the English MPs about how to rule England that they're going to overrule the Conservative Party which was elected to a huge majority in England, albeit only a narrow one across the UK. Conservatives have 322 seats in England (I believe, don't quote me on that) out of 533.
It's a bit of a constitutional crisis.
Thank God they chose the right issue to do this with.
TBH its probably worth it to stop the horrific abuse of animals by rich cunts.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33520547
Speaking of democracy, almost 3/4 of the population are against making fox hunting legal.
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United States43533 Posts
I'd rather fox hunting came back than this. I don't support fox hunting but their stance here is indefensible. There would be nothing wrong with taking a moral stance against fox hunting, campaigning against it but refusing to vote on English matters because it's part of their core philosophy.
Nobody anywhere is meant to care more about regional democracy than the SNP, the hypocrisy is absolutely breathtaking.
Out of curiousity, if the SNP had stayed out but the EU had stepped in and overruled Westminster would you still be fine with it?
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On July 15 2015 01:42 KwarK wrote:
I'd rather fox hunting came back than this. I don't support fox hunting but their stance here is indefensible. There would be nothing wrong with taking a moral stance against fox hunting, campaigning against it but refusing to vote on English matters because it's part of their core philosophy.
Nobody anywhere is meant to care more about regional democracy than the SNP, the hypocrisy is absolutely breathtaking.
Out of curiousity, if the SNP had stayed out but the EU had stepped in and overruled Westminster would you still be fine with it?
I'm not fine with it, i'm saying at least they chose an issue where they are definitely 100% in the right to do it.
It is a total abuse of their power, but it could have been used to cause harm instead of good, and it wasn't, so for now all I can say is 'it could be worse'.
ps If it was the EU I would have exactly the same opinion. Its an abuse of power for a good reason, but the fact that this can happen is worrying.
EDIT: I also can see the huge irony of this situation after Cameron's campaign which focused heavily on how Labour would be held to ransom by the SNP.
lol
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On July 15 2015 01:42 KwarK wrote:
I'd rather fox hunting came back than this. I don't support fox hunting but their stance here is indefensible. There would be nothing wrong with taking a moral stance against fox hunting, campaigning against it but refusing to vote on English matters because it's part of their core philosophy.
Nobody anywhere is meant to care more about regional democracy than the SNP, the hypocrisy is absolutely breathtaking.
Out of curiousity, if the SNP had stayed out but the EU had stepped in and overruled Westminster would you still be fine with it?
You would seriously prefer animals were tortured than SNP MPs voted to prevent it at the expense of some moral high ground? Who gives a shit about their stance, fox hunting is barbaric.
If you want to base your argument about the fox hunting ban on the democratic will of British people, bear in mind that 74% of British people are against fox hunting being legalised. Source
I agree that it's a bizarre situation where EVEL hasn't gone through (yet) and Scotland MPs seem to wield disproportionate power over English laws, where English MPs cannot do the same to Scotland. I also think Scotland should not allow multiple hounds, like they do currently (the irony of the situation being that the bill would only bring English fox hunting rules in line with Scottish ones).
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United States43533 Posts
Yes, I choose a functional representative democracy over foxes. I don't think that's a hugely tough one.
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On July 15 2015 08:59 KwarK wrote:
Yes, I choose a functional representative democracy over foxes. I don't think that's a hugely tough one.
That's not the decision you have to make though. I think you're portraying it as though this vote is a make-or-break on the principles of Britain's representative democracy, and that's just not the case. Regardless of whether SNP MPs vote on this one bill, the state of our representative democracy is tragic.
Does it not seem more dangerous to our representative democracy that, if it hadn't been for the interference of SNP MPs, the parliament would have passed a bill which 74% of people are against?
Again, it seems inevitable now that EVEL will pass regardless, so this interfering from Scottish MPs has a short lifespan.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/local/cache-vignettes/L540xH859/abstention-a7864.png)
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