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No he's/it's not. Hence me saying it's me being in Lala Land. I just like the guy, and if something is destined to fail (like Brexit from the beginning), might as well do it as charming as possible.
And you're correct, at least from my opinion, a third (at minimum) sizeable party is urgently needed. Not just because of Brexit, but because the british political system just doesn't work in crisis.
I disagree with swooping though. It sure could happen, UKIP certainly rose like a star in 2015 - but look what happened. They're basically a synonym for incompetence, with Farage ridiculed by basically everyone apart from the 20 people that marched with him. I personally would rather see "not swooping" but "permanent".
That being said, thanks to first past the post, chances are pretty slim either way. UKIP being a great example again, where Tories got 330 seats for 11 million votes, while UKIP got one seat for 4 million votes. Not that i'm sad about it, UKIP was aids in political form, just trying to make a point about the hilarity of the FPTP system and how this realistically prevents change.
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On March 31 2019 21:22 m4ini wrote:
No he's/it's not. Hence me saying it's me being in Lala Land. I just like the guy, and if something is destined to fail (like Brexit from the beginning), might as well do it as charming as possible.
And you're correct, at least from my opinion, a third (at minimum) sizeable party is urgently needed. Not just because of Brexit, but because the british political system just doesn't work in crisis.
I disagree with swooping though. It sure could happen, UKIP certainly rose like a star in 2015 - but look what happened. They're basically a synonym for incompetence, with Farage ridiculed by basically everyone apart from the 20 people that marched with him. I personally would rather see "not swooping" but "permanent".
That being said, thanks to first past the post, chances are pretty slim either way. UKIP being a great example again, where Tories got 330 seats for 11 million votes, while UKIP got one seat for 4 million votes. Not that i'm sad about it, UKIP was aids in political form, just trying to make a point about the hilarity of the FPTP system and how this realistically prevents change.
Sorry for such a short shitty reply to your previous post, was at work and can barely type on my phone. I was about to write a longer one now but finding the right words, terms and expressions in English takes ages for me so I resign from the discussion. Just know that I still disagree with you! 
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Don't worry, i wasn't offended or something - it's an internet discussion, at the end of the day the entire point is disagreeing and not coming to a conclusion - that's how it works. Would otherwise be boring anyway.
English isn't my mother tongue either btw, i just happen to live in the UK. That's right, i'm one of those "damn immuhgrants" stealing all the jobs. I got like 27 of them, all hidden in the basement, soon to be buried in the yard.
But, i'm okay with agreeing to disagree. That's what opinions are.
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United Kingdom10004 Posts
There seems to be alot of support in parliament for a customs union. I think this would be a good way forward if May's deal isn't going to work.
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On March 31 2019 21:22 m4ini wrote:
No he's/it's not. Hence me saying it's me being in Lala Land. I just like the guy, and if something is destined to fail (like Brexit from the beginning), might as well do it as charming as possible.
And you're correct, at least from my opinion, a third (at minimum) sizeable party is urgently needed. Not just because of Brexit, but because the british political system just doesn't work in crisis.
I disagree with swooping though. It sure could happen, UKIP certainly rose like a star in 2015 - but look what happened. They're basically a synonym for incompetence, with Farage ridiculed by basically everyone apart from the 20 people that marched with him. I personally would rather see "not swooping" but "permanent".
That being said, thanks to first past the post, chances are pretty slim either way. UKIP being a great example again, where Tories got 330 seats for 11 million votes, while UKIP got one seat for 4 million votes. Not that i'm sad about it, UKIP was aids in political form, just trying to make a point about the hilarity of the FPTP system and how this realistically prevents change.
Well Farage created his own party, the Brexit party.So while you’d expect anti eu support to be high if they delay the exit and call an election the UKIP and brexit party vote could split.I prefer the preferential vote system we have in australia personally.
Plus a bunch of Labour mps created their own party, ‘Change UK’ (CUK) which ironically seeks no change.Anti Brexit Want a second referendum.So i guess if you don’t want to leave the EU vote for the CUK party.
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On April 01 2019 18:19 Jockmcplop wrote:
There seems to be alot of support in parliament for a customs union. I think this would be a good way forward if May's deal isn't going to work. If I read right the customs union isn't an actual solution. Its just the commitment that whatever deal the UK eventually does get includes a customs union.
Plus as with any solution it would require a long extension and the UK participating in EU elections, which will probably run into more trouble in Parliament.
11 days until a hard Brexit.
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On April 01 2019 18:19 Jockmcplop wrote:
There seems to be alot of support in parliament for a customs union. I think this would be a good way forward if May's deal isn't going to work.
Yeah, however, a large part of conservatives have already said they would do basically anything to prevent such a "soft" Brexit:
"The so-called “pizza club” of pro-Brexit cabinet ministers, led by the House of Commons leader Andrea Leadsom, held an emergency conference call on Saturday night to coordinate their response to the crisis and agreed to block efforts to join a customs union."
Source:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/31/ministers-try-to-force-mays-hand-over-brexit-as-cabinet-rift-widens
I think Tory's could indeed split over this decision. And since that is the one thing May is trying to avoid as hell, I struggle to believe that she will implement such a solution. I mean, if I understand the process correctly, parliament has no easy way to circumvent government and implement a solution, right?
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On April 01 2019 18:40 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2019 18:19 Jockmcplop wrote:
There seems to be alot of support in parliament for a customs union. I think this would be a good way forward if May's deal isn't going to work. If I read right the customs union isn't an actual solution. Its just the commitment that whatever deal the UK eventually does get includes a customs union. Plus as with any solution it would require a long extension and the UK participating in EU elections, which will probably run into more trouble in Parliament. 11 days until a hard Brexit.
According to media, allegedly (i say allegedly because i'm inherently hesitant when it's "sources close to") officials said that the UK would be able to leave on may 22nd if they back a customs union.
With Downing Street’s agreement, a reference to the intention to negotiate an ambitious customs deal would be swiftly written into the political declaration and formally signed off at the EU leaders’ summit on 10 April.
Brussels would then expect all the necessary withdrawal legislation to be passed by parliament by the end of May to avoid the holding of European elections in Britain.
As i said, not much to go by, but seems probable.
In other news, the german deputy foreign minister seems to be tired of it.
Brexit is a big shitshow, I say that now very undiplomatically ...
I don’t know if William Shakespeare could have come up with such a tragedy but who will foot the bill?
Roth dismissed the UK cabinet as members of an out-of-touch elite. He said 90% of the cabinet had “no idea how workers think, live, work and behave” and that it would not be these politicians “born with silver spoons in their mouths, who went to private schools and elite universities” who would suffer from Brexit.
Can't say he's wrong. At least not flatout, there's quite a few "normal MPs", but the majority of, lets call them, "the voices of leave", he's spot on there.
edit: how far out of touch fringe ultras are is shown by a recent twitter thread by Steve Baker (don't want to link 6 tweets, just look for it) - he's arguing that the ERG etc were very open to compromise because they did things like: accept that they had to pay their bill, accept "the Art 50 route" and then accepted the implementation period, accepted ECJ jurisdiction over EU citizens rights etc.
I mean.. lol. To be clear, as an example, the "Art 50 route" as he puts it was an international treaty. So the ERG is arguing that they deserve a medal for, you know, "accepting" that breaking international treaties (something that Mogg is openly advertising for) might be a bad idea.
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On April 01 2019 18:51 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2019 18:40 Gorsameth wrote:On April 01 2019 18:19 Jockmcplop wrote:
There seems to be alot of support in parliament for a customs union. I think this would be a good way forward if May's deal isn't going to work. If I read right the customs union isn't an actual solution. Its just the commitment that whatever deal the UK eventually does get includes a customs union. Plus as with any solution it would require a long extension and the UK participating in EU elections, which will probably run into more trouble in Parliament. 11 days until a hard Brexit. According to media, allegedly (i say allegedly because i'm inherently hesitant when it's "sources close to") officials said that the UK would be able to leave on may 22nd if they back a customs union. Show nested quote +With Downing Street’s agreement, a reference to the intention to negotiate an ambitious customs deal would be swiftly written into the political declaration and formally signed off at the EU leaders’ summit on 10 April.
Brussels would then expect all the necessary withdrawal legislation to be passed by parliament by the end of May to avoid the holding of European elections in Britain.
As i said, not much to go by, but seems probable. Oh sure, you can leave in time, but you won't have negotiated a customs union with the EU by 22nd May. So you would have an indefinite period of hard brexit while trying to negotiate with the EU. And what happens to Ireland during that time?
Or would there be a backstop in place while the negotiations are ongoing?
It feels like another fairy-tale PM's tell each other to pretend they are not in a sinking pile of shit.
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On April 01 2019 19:10 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2019 18:51 m4ini wrote:On April 01 2019 18:40 Gorsameth wrote:On April 01 2019 18:19 Jockmcplop wrote:
There seems to be alot of support in parliament for a customs union. I think this would be a good way forward if May's deal isn't going to work. If I read right the customs union isn't an actual solution. Its just the commitment that whatever deal the UK eventually does get includes a customs union. Plus as with any solution it would require a long extension and the UK participating in EU elections, which will probably run into more trouble in Parliament. 11 days until a hard Brexit. According to media, allegedly (i say allegedly because i'm inherently hesitant when it's "sources close to") officials said that the UK would be able to leave on may 22nd if they back a customs union. With Downing Street’s agreement, a reference to the intention to negotiate an ambitious customs deal would be swiftly written into the political declaration and formally signed off at the EU leaders’ summit on 10 April.
Brussels would then expect all the necessary withdrawal legislation to be passed by parliament by the end of May to avoid the holding of European elections in Britain.
As i said, not much to go by, but seems probable. Oh sure, you can leave in time, but you won't have negotiated a customs union with the EU by 22nd May. So you would have an indefinite period of hard brexit while trying to negotiate with the EU. And what happens to Ireland during that time? Or would there be a backstop in place while the negotiations are ongoing? It feels like another fairy-tale PM's tell each other to pretend they are not in a sinking pile of shit.
Ahm, there's not much to negotiate in a customs union. A customs union is a customs union. A backstop isn't needed if the UK stays in a customs union.
That's also not really MPs saying that, but according to the article, it's the EU saying that. I just realised that i didn't quote that part, so it's my fault. "Sources close to" didn't mean UK government.
Britain could be out of the EU by 22 May if the Commons backs a customs union in Monday night’s indicatives votes, according to officials close to the Brexit negotiations in Brussels.
My bad.
edit: there's no "period of hard brexit" either, since if that is accepted/voted for, there's still the 18 months implementation period starting on May 22nd (in this case), where details would be hammered out. That was always gonna happen regardless of what deal the UK went for (apart from no-deal).
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On April 01 2019 19:19 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2019 19:10 Gorsameth wrote:On April 01 2019 18:51 m4ini wrote:On April 01 2019 18:40 Gorsameth wrote:On April 01 2019 18:19 Jockmcplop wrote:
There seems to be alot of support in parliament for a customs union. I think this would be a good way forward if May's deal isn't going to work. If I read right the customs union isn't an actual solution. Its just the commitment that whatever deal the UK eventually does get includes a customs union. Plus as with any solution it would require a long extension and the UK participating in EU elections, which will probably run into more trouble in Parliament. 11 days until a hard Brexit. According to media, allegedly (i say allegedly because i'm inherently hesitant when it's "sources close to") officials said that the UK would be able to leave on may 22nd if they back a customs union. With Downing Street’s agreement, a reference to the intention to negotiate an ambitious customs deal would be swiftly written into the political declaration and formally signed off at the EU leaders’ summit on 10 April.
Brussels would then expect all the necessary withdrawal legislation to be passed by parliament by the end of May to avoid the holding of European elections in Britain.
As i said, not much to go by, but seems probable. Oh sure, you can leave in time, but you won't have negotiated a customs union with the EU by 22nd May. So you would have an indefinite period of hard brexit while trying to negotiate with the EU. And what happens to Ireland during that time? Or would there be a backstop in place while the negotiations are ongoing? It feels like another fairy-tale PM's tell each other to pretend they are not in a sinking pile of shit. Ahm, there's not much to negotiate in a customs union. A customs union is a customs union. A backstop isn't needed if the UK stays in a customs union. That's also not really MPs saying that, but according to the article, it's the EU saying that. I just realised that i didn't quote that part, so it's my fault. "Sources close to" didn't mean UK government. Show nested quote +Britain could be out of the EU by 22 May if the Commons backs a customs union in Monday night’s indicatives votes, according to officials close to the Brexit negotiations in Brussels.
My bad. edit: there's no "period of hard brexit" either, since if that is accepted/voted for, there's still the 18 months implementation period starting on May 22nd (in this case), where details would be hammered out. That was always gonna happen regardless of what deal the UK went for (apart from no-deal). Yeah, I was thinking of a different trade arrangement.
Its possible and indeed the most likely but it would mean no separate trade deals the UK was looking forward to, and the financial sector will be fucked because it doesn't include the free movement of capital.
I guess we'll see what happens today.
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Yeah, didn't mean to say it was a great idea (though, it'd probably still better than Mays deal and infinitely better than no deal).
No separate trade deals is also correct, and looking at the current state of it, i'm not sure how that's a bad thing considering that the UK has done jack in that regard and already is being pre-lubed by the big guys. The last few months really shouldn't fill anyone with confidence in regards to the UKs "negotiating capabilities".
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United Kingdom10004 Posts
If MPs back a customs union we really will be finally admitting defeat in this whole thing. Its Brexit without the freedom. Its a loss of benefits for literally zero gain, and yet its still our best option at the moment.
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On April 01 2019 19:37 Jockmcplop wrote:
If MPs back a customs union we really will be finally admitting defeat in this whole thing. Its Brexit without the freedom. Its a loss of benefits for literally zero gain, and yet its still our best option at the moment. technically you lose the freedom of movement which is what Brexit was all about, stop them damn foreigners from taking your jobs.
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On April 01 2019 19:37 Jockmcplop wrote:
If MPs back a customs union we really will be finally admitting defeat in this whole thing. Its Brexit without the freedom. Its a loss of benefits for literally zero gain, and yet its still our best option at the moment.
Technically incorrect.
Immigration, yadayada.
What you mean is "single market".
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United Kingdom10004 Posts
Immigration is not going to be greatly affected by Brexit.
That's probably going to upset some people but I can't even see how they would cut down on immigration.
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On April 01 2019 19:45 Jockmcplop wrote:
Immigration is not going to be greatly affected by Brexit.
That's probably going to upset some people but I can't even see how they would cut down on immigration.
.. eh? You can't see how they would cut down on immigration if europeans (especially dem pesky polish and romas etc) aren't allowed to just get onto a train and move to the UK?
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United Kingdom10004 Posts
On April 01 2019 19:59 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2019 19:45 Jockmcplop wrote:
Immigration is not going to be greatly affected by Brexit.
That's probably going to upset some people but I can't even see how they would cut down on immigration.
.. eh? You can't see how they would cut down on immigration if europeans (especially dem pesky polish and romas etc) aren't allowed to just get onto a train and move to the UK?
Genuinely? Yeah.
The fact is Eastern Europeans are a huge part of the UK labour market, and are pretty much needed to keep things going, especially when we shit our economy down the drain with Brexit.
It may have some small effect on immigration numbers, and policy will be different but our government has already cut immigration down to just about the lowest possible amount. The NHS is already struggling to find staff due to our ridiculous immigration policies, too much further movement on that will cause huge, permanent issues.
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Why is immigration even a problem in the UK?
Customs union means only goods, no capital , services or labour right?
Seems awfully complicated, specially when EU regulates the trade for UK with them having no say in it
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On April 01 2019 20:34 Harris1st wrote:
Why is immigration even a problem in the UK?
Customs union means only goods, no capital , services or labour right?
Seems awfully complicated, specially when EU regulates the trade for UK with them having no say in it
Not even Ken Clarke who tabled the proposal think it's a good option but at this point it's about damage mitigation. I can't see how either CU or Norway+ are sustainable long term solutions.
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EPT
