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On August 25 2017 01:23 Jockmcplop wrote: I wish bardtown was still here because the prevalence of Muslim gangs abusing children in the UK is not a coincidence. Its a real problem and a problem that could have been addressed a long time ago if only the authorities and people in social services weren't terrified of being called Islamophobic. Its the darkest consequence of political correctness I've ever seen (i'm generally in favour of political correctness).
What's been written about bardtown on this page of this thread is both proof of this point and a demostration of why these gangs were allowed to get away with it for so long.
I would suggest people watch this:
For more detailed information.
While you can maybe say that the reason this was allowed to continue at an organization level was due to politically correct politicians being afraid to reignite the race wars, you cannot say that the reason these people are scum sex abusers is because they are pakistani muslims.
You see, that is doing it the wrong way round. They weren't grooming and abusing children because they are Pakistani muslims any more than Catholic priests were abusing children because they are Catholic priests. However, the large support network exists because the community was disinterested in stopping them.
Now I haven't read enough background to know exactly who were the people turning a blind eye to the Rochdale ring. Should the British Pakistani community police itself? Clearly they should be willing to speak up to the police about abuses they see. And if they don't then that's a problem. But it's not exactly a new problem either. There are hundreds of subcommunities where the mutual bonds within the community win out over the larger society. The Catholic church was one of them. Irish in Liverpool (and other British cities) during the 80s and 90s surely sheltered IRA members. And of course, gypsies around the world are quite (in)famous for putting their own community above participation in the country's society at large.
These communities are rightfully criticized when shit hits the fan for not doing enough to prevent/stop it. But I don't see the link between that, and a link to the (1) Muslim community in England in general, or (2) even more generally, their religion. Also, the solution in the past has generally been to work WITH the communities to find out how to solve this. Because I'm almost certain that just as the Catholic church doesn't actually want sex offending priests, the British Pakistani community doesn't want a ring of sex offenders in their midst. Yet most of what I have seen is using this to create more of an us vs. them mentality in which all Muslims are grouped with the sex offenders in a larger case to portray Muslims as the root of all these problems.
Isn't political correctness just a cover for the police failing to respond to hundreds of reports? They failed to respond to reports because of fears for their own careers and reputation. If it only took that to stop them, what will they do in a political corruption scandal or reporting corruption within their ranks?
@Acrofales That's all pretty fair. I never suggested a causal link between Pakistani muslims and child abuse gangs. There is a link of some kind though. My personal feeling is more that there was a tight community of child abusers who spread across the country as they learned that nothing was being done about it. There is no doubt that they were predominantly Pakistani muslims though. The biggest problem I have is that for even pointing that out, the first reflex of many is to think 'racist' straight away. The louder those people shout, the harder it becomes to do anything about it.
This case says alot more about how clumsy political correctness can be, and the horrible consequences of that, than it does about either Pakistanis or Muslims.
On August 25 2017 02:22 Plansix wrote: Isn't political correctness just a cover for the police failing to respond to hundreds of reports? They failed to respond to reports because of fears for their own careers and reputation. If it only took that to stop them, what will they do in a political corruption scandal or reporting corruption within their ranks?
Its possible, but I can see it being a genuine link. The reason I say this is because of the Stephen Lawrence case in the UK. This was a racist murder that exposed massive institutional racism in our biggest police force. It was really an absolutely huge deal that shook the UK police nationwide. I think that must have been in the backs of the minds of senior police officers when deciding on policy going into the 2010s.
I'm not suggesting that the evil PC left is ruining our country. The Lawrence inquiry was not only absolutely right but necessary in exposing how racist our police were,and the uproar was justified. Its more that PC can have unintended consequences and that we should be careful of that as much as we can.
There's no easy fix for it. You expect the police to act professionally at all times but they are humans and pressure - especially political pressure on high calibre jobs - does have an effect on how people go about things.
I agree with you that that fears of being accused of racism creates a problem for police. I just don’t think political correctness is the right term to be using for these types of situations. Because that is just a weak police departments protecting themselves at the expense of the citizens. They would do the same thing if any other case involved some other hot button issue. They would just bury it, rather than put their careers on the line.
On August 25 2017 02:38 Plansix wrote: I agree with you that that fears of being accused of racism creates a problem for police. I just don’t think political correctness is the right term to be using for these types of situations. Because that is just a weak police departments protecting themselves at the expense of the citizens. They would do the same thing if any other case involved some other hot button issue. They would just bury it, rather than put their careers on the line.
Hmm... I'm not sure about this. The question is whether or not the police would have been called racist for investigating specifically the link between Pakistani men and child abuse. I feel like they would have, before Rochdale anyway. I think both can be true anyway. Sure the police were weak. They were weak, unprofessional and stupid. That doesn't mean that there wasn't some kind of link between rampant accusations of racism for any measures taken specifically against a certain population or demographic and their weakness. You have to bear in mind that this wasn't just one police force. This was forces all over the country refusing to look at whether or not there was a pattern. Some cases were being identified and investigated but the idea that there was a pattern of behaviour between a some men of a specific racial group and child abuse was never investigated until the media and right wing politicians got involved.
My view on this is that it is easy to blame abstract forces, like political correctness for systematic problems with the police force. But how do you reduce the abstract force of Political Correctness? Is it even possible? Would it do anything? None of it sounds like a path to a solution.
The police ignored hundreds of reports because they didn’t want to be called racist. They didn’t want to deal with the political fallout and that should be the story. Because if you remove political correctness, that same police department would still be just as shitty. There is a person in that department that made the decision to ignore those reports and they are the problem.
On August 25 2017 03:06 Plansix wrote: My view on this is that it is easy to blame abstract forces, like political correctness for systematic problems with the police force. But how do you reduce the abstract force of Political Correctness? Is it even possible? Would it do anything? None of it sounds like a path to a solution.
The police ignored hundreds of reports because they didn’t want to be called racist. They didn’t want to deal with the political fallout and that should be the story. Because if you remove political correctness, that same police department would still be just as shitty. There is a person in that department that made the decision to ignore those reports and they are the problem.
This would be true except it doesn't fit the case. There were multiple people in multiple departments, from the police, the court system, the media who all showed exactly the same reaction for the same reason. Political correctness is only abstract if you choose not to see it as concrete. We can call it 'political pressure to not be seen to be racist' if you want but that is just a different and more unwieldy way of saying the exact same thing.
It poses a difficult question but an important one, which may have a solution: How much should we insulate those with the power to make these decisions from accusations of racism, if at all? Also How do we make sure that the fear of accusations of racism doesn't affect how high ranking players in the police/politics do their job?
The accusations of racism are simply another form of political pressure. Similar to charging a popular public figure with sexual assault. The solution may be to simply provide more avenues for people to bring complaints and charges. If the police fail to act on their reports, create a clear and transparent path for them to escalate those reports. This isn’t a new issue or one that is limited simply to racism.
On August 25 2017 04:16 Plansix wrote: The accusations of racism are simply another form of political pressure. Similar to charging a popular public figure with sexual assault. The solution may be to simply provide more avenues for people to bring complaints and charges. If the police fail to act on their reports, create a clear and transparent path for them to escalate those reports. This isn’t a new issue or one that is limited simply to racism.
Its very different to charging a popular public figure with sexual assault. No-one would fear doing their job properly because they might get accused of sexual assault.
We have to find a way to remove the taboo of speaking honestly and clearly about problems which may occur within certain demographic groups. If people refuse to look at that and just focus on individuals, the bigger problems will never be addressed. You could say that there were over a hundred individuals who were sexually assaulting young girls. That tells you something. If you say that over 95% of them were Pakistani men working in the night time economy that tells you much,much more and allows you to start working on solving the problem.
In the same way, if you say that this case was just down to a few bad policemen, you are correct, but no closer to stopping a repeat of the situation. If you say that political pressure influenced the ability or will of these people to do their jobs properly you are much closer to a solution.
As an American, I have a pretty low view of police in general, so its colors more view on this. I understand that the UK is very different and I shouldn’t view it through that lens. But in the two cases in front of me right now I mostly see the police failing at their job with difference causes. And the solution to both of those problems seems to be “Get better police.” Because 10 years from now they will just fail for another, completely different reason.
And to be clear, I don’t think its just a few bad policemen. It takes effort to ignore over 100 reports of criminal wrong doing. That is an entire department putting itself above the people they serve.
On August 25 2017 03:06 Plansix wrote: My view on this is that it is easy to blame abstract forces, like political correctness for systematic problems with the police force. But how do you reduce the abstract force of Political Correctness? Is it even possible? Would it do anything? None of it sounds like a path to a solution.
The police ignored hundreds of reports because they didn’t want to be called racist. They didn’t want to deal with the political fallout and that should be the story. Because if you remove political correctness, that same police department would still be just as shitty. There is a person in that department that made the decision to ignore those reports and they are the problem.
How do we make sure that the fear of accusations of racism doesn't affect how high ranking players in the police/politics do their job?
By investigation all accusations in the same manner without bias.
By building a case on evidence collected in a lawful manner.
Then shitbags get convicted on the merit of evidence rather than race or background. Even if it turns out there is a preponderence towards a certain population (which will always happen anyway) the process should be imparital enough to dispell any accusations of racism.
Of course this requires compentent, impartial police, which will never happen because they are people too.
On August 25 2017 03:06 Plansix wrote: My view on this is that it is easy to blame abstract forces, like political correctness for systematic problems with the police force. But how do you reduce the abstract force of Political Correctness? Is it even possible? Would it do anything? None of it sounds like a path to a solution.
The police ignored hundreds of reports because they didn’t want to be called racist. They didn’t want to deal with the political fallout and that should be the story. Because if you remove political correctness, that same police department would still be just as shitty. There is a person in that department that made the decision to ignore those reports and they are the problem.
How do we make sure that the fear of accusations of racism doesn't affect how high ranking players in the police/politics do their job?
By investigation all accusations in the same manner without bias.
By building a case on evidence collected in a lawful manner.
Then shitbags get convicted on the merit of evidence rather than race or background. Even if it turns out there is a preponderence towards a certain population (which will always happen anyway) the process should be imparital enough to dispell any accusations of racism.
Of course this requires compentent, impartial police, which will never happen because they are people too.
I think the point here is that they got investigated. They even made arrests. What they (willfully) didn't do is connect the dots between the cases that would have made it clear that the case was far bigger than the "isolated incidents" indicated. The reason given for not doing that is because the connecting factor that linked the cases was one of race, and pointing that out was career suicide.
I mean, imagine the inverse: there were a load of actually isolated incidents of Pakistanis molesting children. Someone points out that it is an awful coincidence that all these crimes are committed by Pakistani men, and maybe they are somehow organized. This is investigated and it turns out that no, there was no organization. And in actual fact, it was just a statistical fluke, because since then the statistics have reverted to child molesters being a representative sample of the British population. Outcries go up from the Pakistani community that it's race warfare, and that they are systematically targeted by the police. The first thing the cops do is fire everybody involved.
With 20/20 hindsight it's easy to say "it's clearly the former, and it's ridiculous the police systematically and willfully buried that lead". But when the police first started doing that, it was obviously far from clear that there was indeed a widespread Pakistani child grooming ring operating throughout England.
And when they started digging they found other links, but they actually had to start digging. At first the only connection was that a rather large number of sex crimes were being perpetrated by middle-aged Pakistani men. And good luck pointing that out to your boss who is still afraid of the race riots of the 80s.
Any passing yanks can also use the case to get a sense of just how incestuous, influential and out of touch our newspapers are.
The Stephen Lawrence case was pushed by the daily mail, if it wasn't for them his murder would have been another statistic instead of a watershed in British policing. "But wait a minute" you might say "you're saying that the British press are horrific, this sounds like a good thing that they did". To which the answer is "yes, the daily mail did a good thing, but they did it because... wait for it... Stephen Lawrence's dad did some decorating for Paul Dacre, proprietor of the daily mail"
The daily routine of any newspaper is structured around meetings, known as conferences, but, to quote a regular attender of them, the Mail’s meetings resemble “this weird fucking feudal court” that Dacre (“this shy and awkward, slightly scared chap”) has built around him to make himself more secure. He obtains most of his knowledge of the world via these toadying assemblies rather than any direct contact with humanity beyond the walls of Northcliffe House. The Mail’s campaign to bring the murderers of Stephen Lawrence to book was exceptional for several reasons, not least its origins: Dacre knew the boy’s father, Neville Lawrence, as a decorator who had done work on his home. The joke among Mail journalists was that their editor had had “a near-life experience”.
If you, dear septic, ever get a chance to grab a genuine copy of the daily mail I would thoroughly recommend it so you can see why one American I know said the British Press was "Basically pravda, only way more evil".
It'll also provide you a clue as to why we would do something to incredibly foolish as Brexit. It's because a lot of tiny men and women like Dacre felt the pond they were swimming in was a little large so they are draining it to fuel their own desires to be god kings of a puddle. Britain will gain all the sovereignty from Europe that Mexico enjoys from the U.S. The real "Sovereignty" that "we" will be enjoying is the sovereign right of cunts like David Davis ("thick as mince, lazy as a toad and vain as Narcissus") to treat our laws as strong suggestions.
Looks like you never read this thread before. This thread was always just bardtown vs the world. Since one side of this match got banned, the other got bored and the great empire was forgotten.
Well, to start a discussion, do you think British people are more tolerant of immigrants? I've heard and noticed some Americans and Australians are very protectionist about who enters their country. Yeah, there are such people in every country but the UK feels different? There are more immigrants from outside the EU than people from the EU.
On September 09 2017 07:48 sc-darkness wrote: Well, to start a discussion, do you think British people are more tolerant of immigrants? I've heard and noticed some Americans and Australians are very protectionist about who enters their country. Yeah, there are such people in every country but the UK feels different? There are more immigrants from outside the EU than people from the EU.
I don't think you can generalise the UK, US, or Australia.
EPT
