EPTUK Politics Mega-thread - Page 294
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
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MyTHicaL
France1070 Posts
On March 17 2017 09:15 bardtown wrote: http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/a44440b6-2864-4e28-9150-518e1ddfa5bc I recommend watching the Brexit Select Committee to people who are interested in understanding the process in more detail. Benn and co. vs Davis is the kind of healthy opposition you don't get to see in PMQs. Starts at 9.30 btw. Might also give you an idea why I was so pleased with TM's decision to make DD the Brexit secretary. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/15/brexit-government-assessed-impact-leaving-eu-deal-david-davis At least he's honest about this one element? That and actually stating immigration will not be dropping by any significant amount. I, and most of the EU, do not give a shit about Brexit if you continue to allow free movment of people. In regards to Scotland they can take it through the Scottish parliament for a vote and then the subsequent court systems. | ||
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bardtown
England2313 Posts
On March 17 2017 15:49 showstealer1829 wrote: I still have the same questions on Scotland's referendum as I did when the Brexit vote happened. I get the moral arguments and all and I believe they should be able to have a vote if they want but I was watching an interview with Salmond on Australian TV last night and his argument for May allowing the vote was "If she doesn't it will kill the Tories in Scotland." The Tories are already dead in Scotland. What can the SNP do if May tells them to jump in a loch till Brexit is complete? I mean politically here, tell everyone to vote for the SNP at the next UK election so they win the 3 seats in Westminster they don't ALREADY have? Tell people to vote Labor? The guys who led the campaign to keep them in the last time? I mean I get they're probably going to get it but I don't see how they can till after Brexit has happened. The SNP are banking on May turning down the referendum increasing support for independence. There is no way they legitimately believed they could get a vote before Brexit, and even if they did there would be years of transition before Scotland actually left so they would still be subject to Brexit regardless. It's a little transparent and May is in line with the majority view in Scotland so it's not clear that this tactic will pay off. | ||
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MyTHicaL
France1070 Posts
The exact same thing can be said about Brexit. There will be years of transition in regards to leaving the EU no matter what outcome is achieved. It would surprise me if May could even point to 5 Scottish cities on a map. | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4751 Posts
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Acrofales
Spain18278 Posts
On March 18 2017 00:38 Silvanel wrote: Come on even i can point 5 Scotish cities... You can? I can only even name 3... well, I can name a 4th, but am not even sure it's a city and not just a town. In fact, does Scotland even have more than 3 cities?! | ||
KwarK
United States43960 Posts
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Acrofales
Spain18278 Posts
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LightSpectra
United States2531 Posts
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KwarK
United States43960 Posts
If they want to hold another vote in 20 years then that's fine, they can go ahead. But if they hold another one next year and independence wins then Westminster would be well within their rights to say "fine, best out of three, we'll hold the next one in five years". It's clearly not about the will of the Scottish people for the SNP, they asked the Scottish people and the Scottish people said they wanted to be in the UK. The SNP think they know better for ideological reasons so they're going to keep asking until the Scottish people get it "right" and then insist that everyone respect that result. | ||
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MyTHicaL
France1070 Posts
Upon electing the most unelectable pillock of western society let us, now, as americans comment on something we literally know nothing about, why? Because we don't even know what the capital of many of these upstart european countries are. However we do fear them because, heck, they are actually stronger economically than we see ourselves are, forgetting the fact that they actually made us what we are. Go america fuck yeah. | ||
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KwarK
United States43960 Posts
On March 18 2017 03:11 MyTHicaL wrote: but a 52/48 referendum vote is? Nope. Referendums as a matter of deciding policy are dumb for exactly this reason. Especially when the status quo is one of the two options so you can't just do nothing when the result is pretty evenly split because that'd be favouring one side. There is no real mandate for leaving, but unfortunately less of a mandate for staying. If the elected government of the British people decide to take us out of the EU then that is their right. The lesson from all of this won't be that the British wanted to leave the EU, after all, it was near evenly divided and a good number didn't even vote. It'll be not to hold referendums on important issues because how people feel on any given day is not a good way of deciding national policy. But if you insist upon holding a referendum against all better judgement and you then lose it then don't subsequently decide to invalidate the result. If you want it to be best out of five, or whatever, then say that before you hold the first one. edit: In response to your edit, I'm British you pillock. | ||
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MyTHicaL
France1070 Posts
Edit: You mean ur English, congrats. I care so much. ,In typical NA fashion that means you most probably have parents or grandparents, etc. Who are from there. Not actually having lived there yourself. again congrats; | ||
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LightSpectra
United States2531 Posts
Somebody illustrated this to me years ago with a pretty compelling argument. You and nine friends go out for a snack and decide on a FPTP vote on what to have. 8 people vote for different flavors of ice cream. 2 people vote for raw barnacles (in the original version, it was something, ah, a bit vulgar, but moving on...). Guess what you're eating? The problem with the 2016 USA presidential election was that many people voted for Trump out of spite against Clinton, but they certainly would have voted for just about anybody else over those two. The problem with the Brexit referendum was that many people voted for Leave under the impression they would get a soft-Brexit. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22291 Posts
On March 18 2017 03:18 MyTHicaL wrote: never wanted it to happen in the first place. Trump, brexit, prove that recent democracy doesnt work. Most people are stupid or over emotional. Edit: You mean ur English, congrats. I care so much. ,In typical NA fashion that means you most probably have parents or grandparents, etc. Who are from there. Not actually having lived there yourself. again congrats; ... Kwark is a Brit who moves to America a few years (has it been that long?). | ||
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KwarK
United States43960 Posts
On March 18 2017 03:21 Gorsameth wrote: ... Kwark is a Brit who moves to America a few years (has it been that long?). It has been. Crazy how the time flies. Decided to do it in 2012, spent 2013 filing paperwork, flew out early 2014. I actually have a green card hearing in two hours to renew it because it's been two years since I got my first green card (over three since I got here, it's a slow and fucked up process). | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
On March 18 2017 03:18 MyTHicaL wrote: never wanted it to happen in the first place. Trump, brexit, prove that recent democracy doesnt work. Most people are stupid or over emotional. Edit: You mean ur English, congrats. I care so much. ,In typical NA fashion that means you most probably have parents or grandparents, etc. Who are from there. Not actually having lived there yourself. again congrats; “Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.” Churchill Democracy is as good as the society. Invest in people's education and you might get better democracy. Also, my country was communist from 1944 to 1989. I can tell you there is NO better way of government that is known to man than democracy. | ||
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bardtown
England2313 Posts
At the start of the campaign the one thing that made me reluctant to leave was the Ukraine situation. The EU may still have a positive role to play for such countries, and I hope we can support their progress from outside; but the UK is not a fledgling democracy that needs supranational controls to keep it on track. On the contrary, British democracy was made lethargic and unresponsive by the EU. Have a little faith in the decision that people made in the face of all manner of threat. Also, really, compare this to countries that refuse to give their people a vote and ask where you'd rather be. The refusal of establishment parties in Europe to even consider hearing the people's views on this subject just shows that they know the EU cannot stand up to real democratic pressure. I doubt there are many who would vote to leave, but the EU should be forced to justify its existence to the people. Maybe then it wouldn't be such a catastrophic mess. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22291 Posts
On March 18 2017 06:18 bardtown wrote: Give it time and keep an open mind. As I see it Brexit was the greatest vindication of the democratic process we have seen in recent times. The people voted against the vested interests of the entire establishment to put their country back on the course they want it on. More fundamentally, even, they voted to have the power to decide that course for themselves. When all the economists and political parties were trying to stop the people doing something and they did it anyway, it seems clear to me that there was a fundamental incoherence in our political system that could only be addressed through a referendum. At the start of the campaign the one thing that made me reluctant to leave was the Ukraine situation. The EU may still have a positive role to play for such countries, and I hope we can support their progress from outside; but the UK is not a fledgling democracy that needs supranational controls to keep it on track. On the contrary, British democracy was made lethargic and unresponsive by the EU. Have a little faith in the decision that people made in the face of all manner of threat. Where the winning side repeatedly pulled out lies, at the thinnest of margins and a not insignificant number of 'winners' regretting their choice. Yes, a clear vindication of the democratic process... | ||
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KwarK
United States43960 Posts
On March 18 2017 06:18 bardtown wrote: The people voted against the vested interests of the entire establishment to put their country back on the course they want it on. The people that voted for both in almost equal numbers. The people that didn't vote didn't vote for either. Don't get too carried away with your revolution against the establishment narrative and "the people". The people that cared disagreed more than they agreed and a lot of the people just didn't care. | ||
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