EPTUK Politics Mega-thread - Page 296
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bardtown
England2313 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On March 18 2017 22:14 bardtown wrote: If you had watched the select committee you would know that it wasn't in the commons, and you might be more informed about what he actually said as opposed to just going with the headline you read in The Guardian. He very competently answered questions on a vast range of topics relating to the technicalities of Brexit. You didn't even get the date right. Also, maybe you didn't notice but the bill went through both houses unamended, just like I told you it would immediately after the court decision. 1) I don't know why you point out The Guardian, but I got the information from you. 2) My apologies, I meant the Commons selection committee. I just got back from a holiday, so excuse the jetlag. 3) It's oustanding that the secretary supposedly in charge of Brexit has made no economic assessment or indeed seemingly any assessment other than trotting out the Theresa May line. What exactly have Theresa May's government been doing other than 6 months of silence and fighting the courts over British democratic principles? 4)+ Show Spoiler + On March 17 2017 09:15 bardtown wrote: http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/a44440b6-2864-4e28-9150-518e1ddfa5bc I recommend watching the Brexit Select Committee to people who are interested in understanding the process in more detail. Benn and co. vs Davis is the kind of healthy opposition you don't get to see in PMQs. Starts at 9.30 btw. Might also give you an idea why I was so pleased with TM's decision to make DD the Brexit secretary. 5) I never disputed that it wouldn't go through unamended, but lamented the the lack of guarantees to both EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens in the EU, and total lack of real discussion and parliamentary oversight. Actions such as David Davis appearing in the Commons select committee should have occured way beforehand, not after; it is an effect of Theresa May pushing through Article 50 in an undemocratic roughshod style. | ||
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bardtown
England2313 Posts
If you lament the lack of guarantees for EU/UK citizens you should look to the EU for refusing a reciprocal agreement which the UK offered at the outset. Even if the EU refused to guarantee those rights for UK citizens I feel like the UK would guarantee them unilaterally, but there are governments in the EU that may use the rights of UK citizens as a bargaining chip against some other demand they have, such as continued free movement. There's a pretty good case for waiting until the agreement can be made bilaterally on that basis. And again, I can't see how parliament voting in favour of a bill created by the government to enact the explicit democratic will of the British people can be considered undemocratic. The UK voted to leave the EU. Leaving the EU is done through A50. Ergo, the UK voted for the government to trigger A50. It makes perfect sense for the commons to back the bill unamended on that basis. And if they didn't, there would be a general election returning a Tory majority of ~100 seats at current estimates, and then they would. | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
This site is not currently active.Thank You. Typical British culture. Thank you for what? :D | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On March 18 2017 20:14 bardtown wrote: Yeah, it's still there. The government has been forced to align itself with the public on this issue, though, and it seems to me that they are reaping the rewards. Theresa May is far more popular than other party leaders and the Tories are polling over 40% which they couldn't have dreamed of until recently. Also, a lot of the negative rhetoric is dying out. Prior to the referendum Euroscepticism was portrayed as a kind of niche, radical view. That's not sustainable, now, so the conversation has become more level and less accusatory. A lot will depend on the outcome of the actual exit, I think. If everything goes well then the establishment will be forced to concede that the referendum was a success, whereas if it goes badly then I suspect they will do everything they can to stop more referendums being held. Good to know, thanks. On March 18 2017 21:27 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I wouldn't use bardtown as an information source except one of general incoherence. The is no fundamental incoherence, except one which naturally occurs when the populationa are split nearly 50/50. He only knows how to speak in soundbites. 52% against 48% is somehow "the people". He happily talks about "taking back control", but is angry when British democracy is at work confirming that yes, a bill must be subject to a discussion and a vote through parliament. He is against the existance of the House of Lords when it provides negatives to Brexit and for it's existance when it places forth positives. He is pleased David Davis's appearance in the commons yesterday even though what was made apparent was how our brexit secretary made no assessment of leaving the EU, in which one has to wonder what exactly has May's government been doing over the last 6 months! He has some strange narrative against "the establishment" whatever that may be. The referendum occured as a result of David Cameron trying to focus the effort of the conservative party away from obsessing over the EU and miscalculated. Its not a matter of people choosing "wrong" but that in effect the current government of May, who is unelected, are pushing through a bill without proper democratic oversight or indeed any form of real analysis. He offered me something well-reasoned, which I was hoping for, and not soundbites. I can't judge for things in the past, just on his fundamental point. The polling at outset and how inevitable the Leave vote was viewed to fail, and I refer to a bevy of articles in advance of the vote here, really underlies a disconnect between the populace and the "correct view" of London and metros. So I accept something of a mismatch that thankfully is headed towards a resolution when both sides approach the table again (aka how much are we willing to pay EU and for what in a trade deal, how much home sovereignty must we pledger in order to bring half of Britain back to the fold). I'm not inclined to check the truth of House of Lords reverses, or David Davis, or analyzing history of narratives: I don't follow this thread minutely enough. If you want to offer your genuine perspective given there exists some measure of incongruity between leadership and the voting public, bardtown proposes a fundamental one, I'm all ears. | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
The number of EU nationals registering as nurses in England has dropped by 92% since the Brexit referendum in June, and a record number are quitting the NHS, it can be revealed. Nursing degree applications slump after NHS bursaries abolished Read more The shock figures have prompted warnings that Theresa May’s failure to offer assurances to foreigners living in the UK is exacerbating a staffing crisis in the health service. Only 96 nurses joined the NHS from other European nations in December 2016 – a drop from 1,304 in July, the month after the referendum. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/mar/18/nhs-eu-nurses-quit-record-numbers As I said many times, the UK shot itself in the foot. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11519 Posts
Except of course, they don't want to be nurses for the pay nurses get. | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
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Zaros
United Kingdom3692 Posts
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farvacola
United States18828 Posts
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On March 19 2017 22:26 Zaros wrote: Sorry, I didn't realise that we live in totalitarian country where we cannot criticise the people or the policies of a government that affect us.Is this the UK politics thread or the im upset about the UK so lets insult it thread? I live in UK. I am proud to be British, and even though I recognise that this is merely an accident of birth, I feel familiarity and warmth in our customs and culture and language and have preference towards our spread and preservation of said culture. It's also a British custom to mock the shit out of people we disagree with and not to follow whatever the government tells us to do. | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6215 Posts
Prime Minister Theresa May will file divorce papers to leave the European Union on March 29, launching two years of complex negotiations that will pit the U.K.’s need for a trade deal against the bloc’s view that Britain shouldn’t benefit from Brexit. More than 40 years after the U.K. joined the EU and nine months since it voted to quit it, Britain’s envoy to the bloc, Tim Barrow, informed EU President Donald Tusk on Monday of her plan to invoke Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty, the mechanism for quitting that has never been used. At stake in the looming talks is whether Britain -- the world’s sixth biggest economy -- can regain powers over immigration and lawmaking without derailing trade with its largest market or threatening London’s status as the region’s leading financial center. England’s 310-year-old union with Scotland is also in jeopardy, while the border separating Northern Ireland -- a U.K. province -- from the Republic of Ireland could become a hard one. “We are on the threshold of the most important negotiation for this country for a generation,” Brexit Secretary David Davis said in a statement after the date was announced by May’s spokesman, James Slack. “The government is clear in its aims: a deal that works for every nation and region of the U.K. and indeed for all of Europe –- a new, positive partnership between the U.K. and our friends and allies in the European Union.” www.bloomberg.com | ||
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Deleuze
United Kingdom2102 Posts
Looks like EG marketing now has a job with UK Gov. That's a fine announcement of an announcement. | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
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bardtown
England2313 Posts
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On March 19 2017 22:28 farvacola wrote: As is the case with the US thread, the difference between the two is not so easy to spot We need Kwark in here to explain the difference between shitty US imperialism and refined UK imperialism. | ||
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bardtown
England2313 Posts
On March 21 2017 10:01 Shield wrote: So if leavers are such democrats, why don't they propose a Brexit referendum? Soft Brexit and hard Brexit. People will choose. Or are you afraid of democracy in this case? It was made perfectly clear that leaving the EU meant regaining control of borders, trade and legislation. That can only happen outside the single market. Notice how only Remain voters talk about soft Brexit. It's just an excuse to try and stop the result of the referendum being carried out. Even if there was a referendum it would come back in favour of leaving the single market, but the government that called for the referendum would completely lose the confidence of leave voters who are in no small part responsible for their 19 point lead in the opinion polls. | ||
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