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On March 13 2017 23:16 MyTHicaL wrote:
Spain has already back tracked on what they previously stated. Also Spain should try to understand that Scotland is not Catalunia, Scotland was independent 300 years ago, forced into this arrangement.
Polling is at 50% now. During the first referendum it was 28 and then rose to 45.
25% of all food/beverage export revenue comes from Scotland. 90% of water; Scotland. The list goes on but with only 5.2 million people it can easily support itself. Guarantees have been given by the EU already, including further investment into Scotland's infrastructure. Water, oil, tourism, farming, fisheries, whisky, 5.2 million people.
Thing is if they make and bottle whisky in Aberdeenshire but ship it to Liverpool to then export internationally; English media counts this entire business as if it is exporting to England. I just hope the torries continue to antagonise them which is something likely to happen.
I don't see how the SNP is an embarassment vs. T.May or Boris Johnson who every other day contradicts basic logic.
Catalonia was its own country some 800 years ago and if you count Aragon as most of its Spanish land was Catalonian then it was an independent until 1500. Even from then on it enjoyed a large amount of autonomy and faced separatist revolts whenever this was threatened. Seeing as Spain arrests anyone who even tries to organize a referendum i'm sure they won't hesitate to say no to Scotland.
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On March 13 2017 23:52 Zaros wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2017 23:16 MyTHicaL wrote:
Spain has already back tracked on what they previously stated. Also Spain should try to understand that Scotland is not Catalunia, Scotland was independent 300 years ago, forced into this arrangement.
Polling is at 50% now. During the first referendum it was 28 and then rose to 45.
25% of all food/beverage export revenue comes from Scotland. 90% of water; Scotland. The list goes on but with only 5.2 million people it can easily support itself. Guarantees have been given by the EU already, including further investment into Scotland's infrastructure. Water, oil, tourism, farming, fisheries, whisky, 5.2 million people.
Thing is if they make and bottle whisky in Aberdeenshire but ship it to Liverpool to then export internationally; English media counts this entire business as if it is exporting to England. I just hope the torries continue to antagonise them which is something likely to happen.
I don't see how the SNP is an embarassment vs. T.May or Boris Johnson who every other day contradicts basic logic. Catalonia was its own country some 800 years ago and if you count Aragon as most of its Spanish land was Catalonian then it was an independent until 1500. Even from then on it enjoyed a large amount of autonomy and faced separatist revolts whenever this was threatened. Seeing as Spain arrests anyone who even tries to organize a referendum i'm sure they won't hesitate to say no to Scotland.
If the EU keeps getting more centralised then the resistance to that should become smaller over time. It won't matter if you are from Spain or Catalonia as long as both are in the EU. Long time to get to that point though, likely would have many regions splitting out of their countries if it happened, isn't only Spain that is the case with. That isn't now though, so as said, doubt Scotland gets in. :/
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Scotland and England is not Catalunia/Spain. I am way too lazy to explain why. All I can suggest is that you simply go and visit the place or at least speak to people who truly understand it. It isn't a historical argument I'm referencing. Scotland has never been just the UK or Britain. Relligion complicated things, the orange parade, etc. To join the EU you must meet the many requirements. Scotland has all of them, currently being a member of the EU. Why don't you just google this stuff it's pretty easy to find.
It is beyond insulting that you people are going to compare this to Catalunia, Basque, or Corse. Ignorance is bliss.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/13/nicola-sturgeon-fires-starting-gun-on-second-scottish-independence-referendum
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On March 14 2017 01:27 MyTHicaL wrote:Scotland and England is not Catalunia/Spain. I am way too lazy to explain why. All I can suggest is that you simply go and visit the place or at least speak to people who truly understand it. It isn't a historical argument I'm referencing. Scotland has never been just the UK or Britain. Relligion complicated things, the orange parade, etc. To join the EU you must meet the many requirements. Scotland has all of them, currently being a member of the EU. Why don't you just google this stuff it's pretty easy to find. It is beyond insulting that you people are going to compare this to Catalunia, Basque, or Corse. Ignorance is bliss. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/13/nicola-sturgeon-fires-starting-gun-on-second-scottish-independence-referendum
No they are not the same but to suggest Spain will do anything but reject Scotland at least on remaining a member of the EU if it leaves the UK would be silly. It's perfectly possible for Scotland to rejoin the EU but that would have its own consequences like adopting the Euro.
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Yep they can feel perfectly free to shoot themselves in the foot. A. Because it is against the entire EU mentality to not allow Scotland an easy passage in. B. It would further weaken the UKs Brexit negotiation ability. C. Would send a clear message to Catalunia that Spain is willing to be petty, most probably resulting in increased support for their independence. No; I don't think that Spain's pride overwhelm its' logic, unlike other countries abreviated with a U as the first word.
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Why does Scotland favor EU membership in general? Is it mostly as a means to temper the influence of their local hegemon?
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It's the largest economy in the world, one that is even willing to invest in the poorer countries. Its' left leaning, so is Scotland. There are a lot of reasons. I know you are scared of the EU and therefore against it, I'd imagine most dominant minded Americans are. The EU might not be perfect, but it's a leap in the right direction.
Basically maternity/paternity leave, Health care, R&D, increased public spending, etc. Are a lot better to Scotland than austerity + tax breaks + more austerity. Brussels has provided more favourable legislation than a torry government ever will.
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On March 13 2017 22:27 bardtown wrote:
She will get it. But if Brexit is a risk, Scottish independence is relatively much more severe (for Scotland). They have a huge deficit which England pays for and no guarantee that they would be in the EU outside the UK, anyway. It's pretty likely that if there is a new referendum then Spain will take a harder stance against their having any automatic membership. Their case for leaving the UK now is really quite weak, but if the Scots want to do so for ideological reasons then that's a different matter. I can get behind that.
I fluctuate between what I want the result to be because I like having Scotland in the UK, but it would be nice to be rid of the embarrassment that is the SNP.
Seriously, like, if anything, scotland has been feeding all the £££ to Westminster all these years from oil and gas; do you know why some english moved up to scotland for their NHS service? Do you see what is the population in scotland and have you ever link that to the per capita spending/deficit, and then compare to the blood sucking westminster?
Like, seriously, how can one spill out some utter upside down words and still try to sound like as it is all normal and acceptable??
I don't scotland will get second referendum, not in 2017; westminster simply cannot afford this right now (nor ever, but they can delay it).
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On March 15 2017 10:30 BurningSera wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2017 22:27 bardtown wrote:
She will get it. But if Brexit is a risk, Scottish independence is relatively much more severe (for Scotland). They have a huge deficit which England pays for and no guarantee that they would be in the EU outside the UK, anyway. It's pretty likely that if there is a new referendum then Spain will take a harder stance against their having any automatic membership. Their case for leaving the UK now is really quite weak, but if the Scots want to do so for ideological reasons then that's a different matter. I can get behind that.
I fluctuate between what I want the result to be because I like having Scotland in the UK, but it would be nice to be rid of the embarrassment that is the SNP. Seriously, like, if anything, scotland has been feeding all the £££ to Westminster all these years from oil and gas; do you know why some english moved up to scotland for their NHS service? Do you see what is the population in scotland and have you ever link that to the per capita spending/deficit, and then compare to the blood sucking westminster? Like, seriously, how can one spill out some utter upside down words and still try to sound like as it is all normal and acceptable?? I don't scotland will get second referendum, not in 2017; westminster simply cannot afford this right now (nor ever, but they can delay it).
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/aug/24/scottish-finances-worsen-fall-oil-revenues-15bn-deficit
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/04/scottish-economy-grows-far-more-slowly-than-uk-as-a-whole
Sorry but you don't just get to make things up and present them as reality. Trying to become an oil nation in 2017 is backwards.
Many people travel in both directions for healthcare. Provisions are better for different treatments in different places. I personally receive medication on the English NHS that is not yet available in Scotland or Wales.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/scots-want-to-remain-in-uk-new-poll-reveals-57256ptzs
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/15/nicola-sturgeon-abandons-bid-remain-eu-poll-shows-record-level/
Leave voters going for the sensible option once again 
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Interesting how there's a Leave-Yes camp lol
Anti-EU, but now wants to split from the UK and get back in the EU?
That, or they are really serious about taking back control.
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Look at the date on that poll. FFS bardtown stop linking old polls and pretending that they're relevent. That was before any sort of official hard brexit announcement.
So are all your other links. It's just so pointless debating this with someone from cambridge. Seriously you have no idea.
Bottom line is there are still a lot of natural resources in Scotland, along with both renewable energy, a small consumer market, tourism, etc. And not even 1/10 of the population of England. It's really pointless to fearmonger about how poorer off Scotland will be without control from Westminster, not to mention hypocritical because those are the exact same arguemnts that the Remain camp used in regards to the EU.
Do you just copy T. May? It's actually begun to be relatively funny to see her quotes of how great the UK is and how unnecessary the European Union is followed by quotes of how the Union of Britain is absolutely necessary to Scotland.
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Those polls are all from the last few days, though? If you're talking about the economic data, that's published annually and is therefore also the most recent available.
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On March 15 2017 10:30 BurningSera wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2017 22:27 bardtown wrote:
She will get it. But if Brexit is a risk, Scottish independence is relatively much more severe (for Scotland). They have a huge deficit which England pays for and no guarantee that they would be in the EU outside the UK, anyway. It's pretty likely that if there is a new referendum then Spain will take a harder stance against their having any automatic membership. Their case for leaving the UK now is really quite weak, but if the Scots want to do so for ideological reasons then that's a different matter. I can get behind that.
I fluctuate between what I want the result to be because I like having Scotland in the UK, but it would be nice to be rid of the embarrassment that is the SNP. Seriously, like, if anything, scotland has been feeding all the £££ to Westminster all these years from oil and gas; do you know why some english moved up to scotland for their NHS service? Do you see what is the population in scotland and have you ever link that to the per capita spending/deficit, and then compare to the blood sucking westminster? Like, seriously, how can one spill out some utter upside down words and still try to sound like as it is all normal and acceptable?? I don't scotland will get second referendum, not in 2017; westminster simply cannot afford this right now (nor ever, but they can delay it).
In the past Scotland was about equal in the proportion of money it got because of oil. But idk if you missed it, but the oil industry has rather changed and NE oil is fucked. Plug in the current oil price to the SNP's own figures pre-ref1 and you'll see Scotland will be financially worse off independent. (There are other changes to account for too, of course.) Pretty hard to have that glorious socialist utopia when you're poorer...
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On March 15 2017 21:07 bardtown wrote:
Those polls are all from the last few days, though? If you're talking about the economic data, that's published annually and is therefore also the most recent available.
The YouGov poll clearly states "3,166 Scottish adults surveyed between August 29 and December 16, 2016".
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On March 15 2017 22:20 Deleuze wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2017 21:07 bardtown wrote:
Those polls are all from the last few days, though? If you're talking about the economic data, that's published annually and is therefore also the most recent available. The YouGov poll clearly states "3,166 Scottish adults surveyed between August 29 and December 16, 2016".
Oh but I'm only including that one to show the movement of certain groups of voters. The most recent poll (the Times one) has fewer in favour of independence.
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In regards to the great NHS. I was admitted to Addenbrookes three times, every time over 4 hour waiting time, the machines and services are outdated. They are actually better equipped in my town (both in wait time, getting appointments, actual machinery, etc) in France of a whopping 20K inhabitants including the surrounding villages. And Addenbrookes was supposed to be the best public hospital of the UK rofl.
The NHS of the UK is pathetic, but Scotland's is less pathetic than that of England. It is what happens when you apply austerity measures to a health system.
You're forgetting to mention the whole "Independence support at its' highest levels ever" headline news of the BBC that you love to quote.
I just wish they'd stop over 70s voting in referendums.. It doesn't make any sense.
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I don't even know what wait times are supposed to be... you go to the ER or have an appointment and then need to wait for hours?
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In the UK they aim to keep it below the 4hour threshold (lol). Obviously if you have a knife wound or car crash you will (or should) get immediate attention. This is more for non immediate life threatening injuries like a broken ankle, arm, pneumonia, X problem, and I guess hypochondriacs get an honourable mention (but they exist in every country).
A big problem is not enough GPs (it takes like 3 weeks to book an appointment in advance) so sometimes are forced to use the ER for less serious issues. Certain councils have greater problems than others.
And yeah sometimes for various reasons if you have an appointment for an X-ray for example you could be forced to wait several hours.. Just an understaffed/over worked/under funded health care system, you get out of it only what you put in. The way juniour doctors are treated, and the all mighty brilliant brexit idea means they will have even more staffing issues in the near future. This is not my opinion it is statistically proven both quantitatevly and qualitatevly from sources all across the health sector from doctors to admins to the red cross so..
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On March 16 2017 01:21 MyTHicaL wrote:
In regards to the great NHS. I was admitted to Addenbrookes three times, every time over 4 hour waiting time, the machines and services are outdated. They are actually better equipped in my town (both in wait time, getting appointments, actual machinery, etc) in France of a whopping 20K inhabitants including the surrounding villages. And Addenbrookes was supposed to be the best public hospital of the UK rofl.
The NHS of the UK is pathetic, but Scotland's is less pathetic than that of England. It is what happens when you apply austerity measures to a health system.
You're forgetting to mention the whole "Independence support at its' highest levels ever" headline news of the BBC that you love to quote.
I just wish they'd stop over 70s voting in referendums.. It doesn't make any sense.
There is massive funding disparity in the UK, with the SNP giving the NE (for example) 10% less funding per capita than it does for the central belt. So thinking that Scotland has a unified level of care is a mistake. The NHS (at least in NE) is utterly fucked under the SNP.
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EPT
