On June 28 2013 12:43 CTStalker wrote: Forcing people to speak (or not speak) a given language is insane. Montreal is very politically and socially different than anywhere else in quebec. Even if every person in Montreal stopped speaking French, it wouldn't affect the rest of the province.
Montreal is where a lot of us suburbanites and students congregate every day. A massive lump of the population would be directly affected, and then all the business with the other administrative regions would have to take place in English, which means that a lot of people would lose their jobs because they only speak French and do business with Montreal in French...
There are a lot of things to consider. Montreal is hardly disconnected from the rest.
Also, if you don't start to learn English fast, you lose a lot of job opportunities, pretty much ALL the good job opportunities.
On June 28 2013 12:33 Xialos wrote: The level of ignorance in this thread is pretty high holybanana. Don't you guys realize that Quebec is the only place on the continent where people speak french (excluding some minor exceptions..)? Quebec is surrounded by an enormous amount of english speakers comparatively to it's french speaker population. If Quebec does not fight, french will disappear. Just look at Montreal, it's getting worst everyday. Remember that Quebec is not a country, so don't compare it to France or belgium.
On June 28 2013 12:14 Slaughter wrote: The thing that seems crazy to me is to have official policies about restrictions on language spoken.
I mean, what if a customer comes in and can't speak french? Do they just keep speaking French until they leave?
Well it does say they can't speak English with one another.
I don't want to defend this, but my mother is a business owner here in Quebec and she speaks very little English. A few years ago, it made her uncomfortable when two of her employees (who were as comfortable in both languages) sometimes spoke English with one another when she was close, as if they didn't want her to understand. She eventually found out that they were complaining about her and even calling her names because she didn't understand the language unless it was spoken very articulately.
On June 28 2013 12:17 Slaughter wrote: Because in a place where both languages are spoken isn't a bit douchey to prohibit one when both are commonly spoken?
Why are they so concerned about pushing French in the first place?
About your second question, the whole rhetoric is about preserving the language, which doesn't sound important to many people but you might thing differently if you were put in a position where you can't get service in your own language.
It just seems funny to me. I have studied about situations where a language is dying and measures were taken to keep it alive and revive it as part of a cultural tradition. Those however were all in third world countries where colonization happened and native culture was suppressed so it seems amusing that a western language in a 1st world country is facing the same.
I'd like to know more about this, is there like a growing "English only" population that is trying to push out the traditional French?
There are a lot of people in Montreal who speak little to no French because it's possible to live here while only speaking English. However, there's no conscious desire to push the French out, not generally. However, Montreal being a (small) economic hub, the English population is growing there, faster than the French population.
So essentially the business is increasingly conducted in English and the place of French-speaking Quebecers is just declining naturally. We're still very much present in our suburbs but money is a big deal and so the suburbs are not quite as relevant as Montreal itself, obviously.
French is on the decline, basically, and I believe that it would be declining faster if French-speaking Quebecers weren't using their majority to artificially maintain it alive. But I think you can only do so much, and our language will continue to fade away because we're a small cell of a few millions surrounded by some 350 millions anglophones in the US and the rest of Canada.
It's inevitable and it's not really bad when you think about it, but people have an emotional attachment to their culture and the particularities of their nation.
If education, politics, media and all the hard and soft industries are required to operate in French, I don't know if you have much to worry about. The language may evolve to take on more English elements, but it won't be English replacing your language. It's going to be a French to be proud of and unique to the cultural history of Quebec.
On June 28 2013 12:14 Slaughter wrote: The thing that seems crazy to me is to have official policies about restrictions on language spoken.
I mean, what if a customer comes in and can't speak french? Do they just keep speaking French until they leave?
Well it does say they can't speak English with one another.
I don't want to defend this, but my mother is a business owner here in Quebec and she speaks very little English. A few years ago, it made her uncomfortable when two of her employees (who were as comfortable in both languages) sometimes spoke English with one another when she was close, as if they didn't want her to understand. She eventually found out that they were complaining about her and even calling her names because she didn't understand the language unless it was spoken very articulately.
On June 28 2013 12:17 Slaughter wrote: Because in a place where both languages are spoken isn't a bit douchey to prohibit one when both are commonly spoken?
Why are they so concerned about pushing French in the first place?
About your second question, the whole rhetoric is about preserving the language, which doesn't sound important to many people but you might thing differently if you were put in a position where you can't get service in your own language.
It just seems funny to me. I have studied about situations where a language is dying and measures were taken to keep it alive and revive it as part of a cultural tradition. Those however were all in third world countries where colonization happened and native culture was suppressed so it seems amusing that a western language in a 1st world country is facing the same.
I'd like to know more about this, is there like a growing "English only" population that is trying to push out the traditional French?
There are a lot of people in Montreal who speak little to no French because it's possible to live here while only speaking English. However, there's no conscious desire to push the French out, not generally. However, Montreal being a (small) economic hub, the English population is growing there, faster than the French population.
So essentially the business is increasingly conducted in English and the place of French-speaking Quebecers is just declining naturally. We're still very much present in our suburbs but money is a big deal and so the suburbs are not quite as relevant as Montreal itself, obviously.
French is on the decline, basically, and I believe that it would be declining faster if French-speaking Quebecers weren't using their majority to artificially maintain it alive. But I think you can only do so much, and our language will continue to fade away because we're a small cell of a few millions surrounded by some 350 millions anglophones in the US and the rest of Canada.
It's inevitable and it's not really bad when you think about it, but people have an emotional attachment to their culture and the particularities of their nation.
If education, politics, media and all the hard and soft industries are required to operate in French, I don't know if you have much to worry about. The language may evolve to take on more English elements, but it won't be English replacing your language. It's going to be a French to be proud of and unique to the cultural history of Quebec.
Just my opinion.
Well I'm not too worried about it, but the thing it it's not just elements of English making their way into French, although that does happen, but the fact that some people just go on and live their life in English. I'm one of those people, and I'm not alone. Most of my work takes place in English. High end business takes place in English.
Francophone parents oftentimes would like to send their kids to school in English because they learn their French at home and they learn the tools to have a job in school, might as well.
I don't think French is going to die off anytime soon, far from it. But it's being less and less prevalent. The fact of the matter is, our French is largely useless, and the world is not driven by artifacts like that. People want efficiency, not old cultural relics
On June 28 2013 12:43 CTStalker wrote: Forcing people to speak (or not speak) a given language is insane. Montreal is very politically and socially different than anywhere else in quebec. Even if every person in Montreal stopped speaking French, it wouldn't affect the rest of the province.
Montreal is where a lot of us suburbanites and students congregate every day. A massive lump of the population would be directly affected, and then all the business with the other administrative regions would have to take place in English, which means that a lot of people would lose their jobs because they only speak French and do business with Montreal in French...
There are a lot of things to consider. Montreal is hardly disconnected from the rest.
Also, if you don't start to learn English fast, you lose a lot of job opportunities, pretty much ALL the good job opportunities.
When Quebecers consider language policies, they seem to decide that they must either supress English, or give up French.
I think that's the easiest solution possible, and that it is short sighted.
Isn't the language police an example of bureaucracy running amok?
On June 28 2013 12:43 CTStalker wrote: Forcing people to speak (or not speak) a given language is insane. Montreal is very politically and socially different than anywhere else in quebec. Even if every person in Montreal stopped speaking French, it wouldn't affect the rest of the province.
LOL? You should really delete this post, it's just utterly wrong. Montreal is the metropol of Quebec, it influences the entire province. Socially, politically, economically, etc...
On June 28 2013 12:43 CTStalker wrote: Forcing people to speak (or not speak) a given language is insane. Montreal is very politically and socially different than anywhere else in quebec. Even if every person in Montreal stopped speaking French, it wouldn't affect the rest of the province.
Montreal is where a lot of us suburbanites and students congregate every day. A massive lump of the population would be directly affected, and then all the business with the other administrative regions would have to take place in English, which means that a lot of people would lose their jobs because they only speak French and do business with Montreal in French...
There are a lot of things to consider. Montreal is hardly disconnected from the rest.
Also, if you don't start to learn English fast, you lose a lot of job opportunities, pretty much ALL the good job opportunities.
When Quebecers consider language policies, they seem to decide that they must either supress English, or give up French.
I think that's the easiest solution possible, and that it is short sighted.
Isn't the language police an example of bureaucracy running amok?
All apparent suppression of English is just a biproduct of the attempt to promote French, and I see no other ways to do that. (And I'm not saying that I support it). If that's the easiest solutions, what are better ones?
As for the language police thing, I don't think it's bureaucracy running amok, just ideology with no clear direction because there's no good solution for this identity crisis.
On June 28 2013 12:14 Slaughter wrote: The thing that seems crazy to me is to have official policies about restrictions on language spoken.
I mean, what if a customer comes in and can't speak french? Do they just keep speaking French until they leave?
Well it does say they can't speak English with one another.
I don't want to defend this, but my mother is a business owner here in Quebec and she speaks very little English. A few years ago, it made her uncomfortable when two of her employees (who were as comfortable in both languages) sometimes spoke English with one another when she was close, as if they didn't want her to understand. She eventually found out that they were complaining about her and even calling her names because she didn't understand the language unless it was spoken very articulately.
On June 28 2013 12:17 Slaughter wrote: Because in a place where both languages are spoken isn't a bit douchey to prohibit one when both are commonly spoken?
Why are they so concerned about pushing French in the first place?
About your second question, the whole rhetoric is about preserving the language, which doesn't sound important to many people but you might thing differently if you were put in a position where you can't get service in your own language.
It just seems funny to me. I have studied about situations where a language is dying and measures were taken to keep it alive and revive it as part of a cultural tradition. Those however were all in third world countries where colonization happened and native culture was suppressed so it seems amusing that a western language in a 1st world country is facing the same.
I'd like to know more about this, is there like a growing "English only" population that is trying to push out the traditional French?
There are a lot of people in Montreal who speak little to no French because it's possible to live here while only speaking English. However, there's no conscious desire to push the French out, not generally. However, Montreal being a (small) economic hub, the English population is growing there, faster than the French population.
So essentially the business is increasingly conducted in English and the place of French-speaking Quebecers is just declining naturally. We're still very much present in our suburbs but money is a big deal and so the suburbs are not quite as relevant as Montreal itself, obviously.
French is on the decline, basically, and I believe that it would be declining faster if French-speaking Quebecers weren't using their majority to artificially maintain it alive. But I think you can only do so much, and our language will continue to fade away because we're a small cell of a few millions surrounded by some 350 millions anglophones in the US and the rest of Canada.
It's inevitable and it's not really bad when you think about it, but people have an emotional attachment to their culture and the particularities of their nation.
If education, politics, media and all the hard and soft industries are required to operate in French, I don't know if you have much to worry about. The language may evolve to take on more English elements, but it won't be English replacing your language. It's going to be a French to be proud of and unique to the cultural history of Quebec.
Just my opinion.
Well I'm not too worried about it, but the thing it it's not just elements of English making their way into French, although that does happen, but the fact that some people just go on and live their life in English. I'm one of those people, and I'm not alone. Most of my work takes place in English. High end business takes place in English.
Francophone parents oftentimes would like to send their kids to school in English because they learn their French at home and they learn the tools to have a job in school, might as well.
I don't think French is going to die off anytime soon, far from it. But it's being less and less prevalent. The fact of the matter is, our French is largely useless, and the world is not driven by artifacts like that. People want efficiency, not old cultural relics
Since I don't know much on how things work in Quebec, I can see how one would be concerned if that's the case.
I support your efforts to keep the language alive, but unfortunately I don't know how the Anglophone encroachment can be stopped. Reminds me of Gaelic in Ireland, which seems to be a lost cause.
Also immigrant enclaves in Ontario with people that never bother to learn English will eventually become dominated by English starting as the generations roll on.
I live in quebec, in town neighboring St-Lambert, and both in the workplace and in every day life I speak french of english whenever I please and this kind of bs has never happened to me. There's an IGA in my home town (which I'd say is 40% english) and an obvious first job for many of my english speakng friends, and it wasn't a problem for them. They spoke what the client spoke and between them it didn't matter.
These kind of things happen to societies with evolving cultures. Montreal is a hub for multiethnicity but the farther you are from it the more you'll find the french equivalent of rednecks. Some people are resistant to change creating these isolated abuse of power in the workplace, and the media blows it out of proportions.
On June 28 2013 12:14 Slaughter wrote: The thing that seems crazy to me is to have official policies about restrictions on language spoken.
I mean, what if a customer comes in and can't speak french? Do they just keep speaking French until they leave?
Well it does say they can't speak English with one another.
I don't want to defend this, but my mother is a business owner here in Quebec and she speaks very little English. A few years ago, it made her uncomfortable when two of her employees (who were as comfortable in both languages) sometimes spoke English with one another when she was close, as if they didn't want her to understand. She eventually found out that they were complaining about her and even calling her names because she didn't understand the language unless it was spoken very articulately.
On June 28 2013 12:17 Slaughter wrote: Because in a place where both languages are spoken isn't a bit douchey to prohibit one when both are commonly spoken?
Why are they so concerned about pushing French in the first place?
About your second question, the whole rhetoric is about preserving the language, which doesn't sound important to many people but you might thing differently if you were put in a position where you can't get service in your own language.
It just seems funny to me. I have studied about situations where a language is dying and measures were taken to keep it alive and revive it as part of a cultural tradition. Those however were all in third world countries where colonization happened and native culture was suppressed so it seems amusing that a western language in a 1st world country is facing the same.
I'd like to know more about this, is there like a growing "English only" population that is trying to push out the traditional French?
There are a lot of people in Montreal who speak little to no French because it's possible to live here while only speaking English. However, there's no conscious desire to push the French out, not generally. However, Montreal being a (small) economic hub, the English population is growing there, faster than the French population.
So essentially the business is increasingly conducted in English and the place of French-speaking Quebecers is just declining naturally. We're still very much present in our suburbs but money is a big deal and so the suburbs are not quite as relevant as Montreal itself, obviously.
French is on the decline, basically, and I believe that it would be declining faster if French-speaking Quebecers weren't using their majority to artificially maintain it alive. But I think you can only do so much, and our language will continue to fade away because we're a small cell of a few millions surrounded by some 350 millions anglophones in the US and the rest of Canada.
It's inevitable and it's not really bad when you think about it, but people have an emotional attachment to their culture and the particularities of their nation.
If education, politics, media and all the hard and soft industries are required to operate in French, I don't know if you have much to worry about. The language may evolve to take on more English elements, but it won't be English replacing your language. It's going to be a French to be proud of and unique to the cultural history of Quebec.
Just my opinion.
Well I'm not too worried about it, but the thing it it's not just elements of English making their way into French, although that does happen, but the fact that some people just go on and live their life in English. I'm one of those people, and I'm not alone. Most of my work takes place in English. High end business takes place in English.
Francophone parents oftentimes would like to send their kids to school in English because they learn their French at home and they learn the tools to have a job in school, might as well.
I don't think French is going to die off anytime soon, far from it. But it's being less and less prevalent. The fact of the matter is, our French is largely useless, and the world is not driven by artifacts like that. People want efficiency, not old cultural relics
Since I don't know much on how things work in Quebec, I can see how one would be concerned if that's the case.
I support your efforts to keep the language alive, but unfortunately I don't know how the Anglophone encroachment can be stopped. Reminds me of Gaelic in Ireland, which seems to be a lost cause.
Also immigrant enclaves in Ontario with people that never bother to learn English will eventually become dominated by English starting as the generations roll on.
I don't think there's a solution wherein everybody wins.
As it is, the French majority is a bit oppressive to the anglophones in an effort to preserve the language.
On the other hand, multiculturalism is good, but it would obviously favor English... the clear advantages is that it would not be oppressive to anybody... but a lot of francophones would be very saddened by the fact that in the end, the British invaders won and we didn't protect our culture.
We're talking about the slow death of a culture versus the oppression of people... I'd say that oppression is much worse, but obviously it's not easy to think about these things rationally, especially not when the nationalism tends to be strong around here, it's passed down generations. Let's just say that I mellowed out. You can find posts of mine on TL where I express radically different views.
On June 28 2013 12:57 dabom88 wrote: Is this even constitutional? Seems like it'd be rather simple to bring up in court if it wasn't.
Nope it's perfectly legal, why you ask? because Quebec "never signed the constitution" as many people actually BRAG about.
We're still completely bound by it, get your facts straight. And the reason why some people brag (?) about the fact that we haven't signed the constitution is because it was essentially secretly put into law, essentially illegally, without Quebec's consent.
Also Gendron is a complete nutcase in more than one way.
Maybe he is a nutcase but that doesn't change the validity of his statements. There is an extreme insecurity of French speakers in Quebec, it is completely unjustified. Also a lot of the bitterness towards Quebec is not even about the language issue but more about the economic situation. Our politicians bend over and hand them the Vaseline and then we wonder why the Quebec government is never satisfied with what they have.
On June 28 2013 12:33 Xialos wrote: The level of ignorance in this thread is pretty high holybanana. Don't you guys realize that Quebec is the only place on the continent where people speak french (excluding some minor exceptions..)? Quebec is surrounded by an enormous amount of english speakers comparatively to it's french speaker population. If Quebec does not fight, french will disappear. Just look at Montreal, it's getting worst everyday. Remember that Quebec is not a country, so don't compare it to France or belgium.
then it disappears from the general populace? you'd rather waste resources by forcing people to speak and conduct themselves in a language that ceases to be relevant. what a joke.
if you want to preserve your heritage or whatever and learn french, no one's stopping you.
On June 28 2013 12:33 Xialos wrote: The level of ignorance in this thread is pretty high holybanana. Don't you guys realize that Quebec is the only place on the continent where people speak french (excluding some minor exceptions..)? Quebec is surrounded by an enormous amount of english speakers comparatively to it's french speaker population. If Quebec does not fight, french will disappear. Just look at Montreal, it's getting worst everyday. Remember that Quebec is not a country, so don't compare it to France or belgium.
then it disappears from the general populace? you'd rather waste resources by forcing people to speak and conduct themselves in a language that ceases to be relevant. what a joke.
if you want to preserve your heritage or whatever and learn french, no one's stopping you.
The problem is the people have a deep emotional connection with their "tool of communication". I understand I may not be the best person to talk to in order to best understand them because i'm what is usually referred to as an "individualist" but that's how it is.
On June 28 2013 13:21 Dawski wrote: Maybe he is a nutcase but that doesn't change the validity of his statements. There is an extreme insecurity of French speakers in Quebec, it is completely unjustified. Also a lot of the bitterness towards Quebec is not even about the language issue but more about the economic situation. Our politicians bend over and hand them the Vaseline and then we wonder why the Quebec government is never satisfied with what they have.
His statements are not valid. I know a fair bit about the history of Quebec and Canada because I need to for my job (which I won't get into). The guy tries to suggest that we weren't treated poorly by the anglophone majority which is completely bullshit. For roughly the last 50-60 years, the situation has been fair, but it's completely insane to suggest that everything should be fine and dandy now. The worst is behind us, but the tensions are still going on.
Gendron is a small times simpleton, he really is. And I'm not saying that because his views are opposed to mine. I rarely say this and mean it, but this man is literally unintelligent.
As for the economic thing, you have to understand that the government of Quebec is fighting for us. It's never advantageous to say thanks in politics... ask for more to make it difficult for them to take it back. It only makes sense.
On June 28 2013 13:24 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: So could you be arrested in Quebec if speaking English is illegal?
No, speaking English is not illegal. At worst, you can get fined if you refuse to have a French sign for a business instead of any other language, or such things. But you'd never get arrested unless you were loudly disturbing the peace in English
EPT
