According to the audio they released, seems like they cannot talk to each other in English because it is a "work environment in Quebec". Seems to me a little weird and possibly too far? Just curious what everybody thought about it.
All she wanted was a part-time job, but what a South Shore teenager got was a hard lesson about language in Quebec.
Meaghan Moran, 17, got a job working at an IGA on Sir-Wilfrid-Laurier Blvd. in Saint-Lambert. She was told that she didn't have the right to speak English at the store. A fluently bilingual Anglophone, she told CTV Montreal she picked up on some language tension one day.
“One of the guys I was working with is English and I knew him and he said, ‘No, talk to me in French because we're not allowed speaking English on the floor,” she said, adding that she quickly heard what her friend and ex-employee Alex Caldwell knew: employees don't feel comfortable speaking English anywhere in the store. “I was warned by a friend in the lunchroom to watch what I say and keep my English down, because the management didn't like it and she got a warning,” said Caldwell. That didn’t sit well with Moran.
“It's just about the principle. You should be able to speak whatever you like. I understand if they want to impose (some rules) -- I'm not going to talk to clients in English, I would talk to them in French -- but if I want to talk to my friend on my break in English, I should be allowed,” she said. “It's becoming too restrictive.”
It reminds me when the word "pasta" wasn't allowed on restaurant menus.
Thoughts? Any other countries have similar rules? Thanks for the inputs
Quebec does have a language gestapo to enforce francophone as the primary language ... but this is the first ive heard of something like this going so far.
Probably just a terrible management, on the floor and during work, I can understand why the management would want the workers speaking french since its the primary language but during lunch breaks..that's stretching it. Probably an ego problem from the bosses lol
On June 28 2013 10:37 Hier wrote: Yup, sounds like Quebec. Children at schools and kindergartens are forbidden to speak English.
The Quebec language police have been ridiculous since they were established in 1961. They seem to have really stepped it up in the last 4-5 years though.
I think it's an interesting topic. Both the Quebec government and the nunavut government get to enforce all sorts of weird cultural rules like this.
Technically the official language of Quebec is french, they sort of voted out english. I think also every sign has to be in french, you can't have english alone but you can have french alone, things like that.. And I'm not just talking street signs, I'm talking businesses too. I'm not sure how I feel about it. There's a lot of history in how things turned out there and I'll be honest, back in the day I usually fell asleep in history class.. So I don't know enough about it.
Montrealer here. Indeed, I am not supposed to have conversations in English with my coworkers during my shifts as the working environment should be in French.
It sucks that I can`t speak comfortably to my manager as she is more fluent in English. Makes no sense but its the law here.
On June 28 2013 10:39 TheUnderking wrote: The Quebec language police have been ridiculous since they were established in 1961. They seem to have really stepped it up in the last 4-5 years though.
Well its not that bad apart from the word pasta and banning spoons with the word "moooosic"
Last time I checked Canada was BOTH english and french. If a customer speaks to you in one of the languages, you should respond in that language. No need to inforce rules like this in a business in Canada IMO.
On June 28 2013 10:43 RedMorning wrote: Last time I checked Canada was BOTH english and french. If a customer speaks to you in one of the languages, you should respond in that language. No need to inforce rules like this in a business in Canada IMO.
The only officially bi-lingual province is New Brunswick.
As to Quebec: moved there, moved out two years later, will never go back. I was refused jobs because my French had the wrong accent. Yeah.
I live in Quebec, i'm born french and now can perfectly talk both languauges and I find this languages problems silly as fuck. It's even worse than you guys outside of Quebec may think. Also, mtl is about 50% french and 50% english...
On June 28 2013 10:39 TheUnderking wrote: The Quebec language police have been ridiculous since they were established in 1961. They seem to have really stepped it up in the last 4-5 years though.
Well its not that bad apart from the word pasta and banning spoons with the word "moooosic"
Wait... When was the word "pasta" banned? Also, yeah, it's ridiculous to enforce what the employees speak on lunch break. Are employees allowed to leave the store during their lunch breaks? Or are they required to stay there, and bring a lunch in ahead of time?
On June 28 2013 10:39 TheUnderking wrote: The Quebec language police have been ridiculous since they were established in 1961. They seem to have really stepped it up in the last 4-5 years though.
Well its not that bad apart from the word pasta and banning spoons with the word "moooosic"
Wait... When was the word "pasta" banned? Also, yeah, it's ridiculous to enforce what the employees speak on lunch break. Are employees allowed to leave the store during their lunch breaks? Or are they required to stay there, and bring a lunch in ahead of time?
iirc there are no legal restrictions about languages during breaks. This particular manager seems like an extremist more than anything.
On June 28 2013 10:51 Uncultured wrote: They are your employer. They pay you do do whatever the fuck they like. You do it, or you don't get paid. That's how I feel about this.
On June 28 2013 10:51 Uncultured wrote: They are your employer. They pay you do do whatever the fuck they like. You do it, or you don't get paid. That's how I feel about this.
On June 28 2013 10:51 Uncultured wrote: They are your employer. They pay you do do whatever the fuck they like. You do it, or you don't get paid. That's how I feel about this.
Tell me more about the 1800's.
those were the days of freedom and responsibility man!
On June 28 2013 10:51 Uncultured wrote: They are your employer. They pay you do do whatever the fuck they like. You do it, or you don't get paid. That's how I feel about this.
On June 28 2013 10:51 Uncultured wrote: They are your employer. They pay you do do whatever the fuck they like. You do it, or you don't get paid. That's how I feel about this.
In most jobs with hourly wages, you clock out when you take your lunch. Therefore, it would be illegal for your employer to require you to do anything during that period of time, since working off the clock is illegal.
On June 28 2013 10:51 Uncultured wrote: They are your employer. They pay you do do whatever the fuck they like. You do it, or you don't get paid. That's how I feel about this.
On June 28 2013 10:56 Tien wrote: St Lambert is very english as well.
This made me lol, as I was watching the video, I was kind of surprised to find out that people spoke English there... I often speak English outside of Montreal with clerks and waitresses out of habit (my family hates me for that, but who cares) and I often correct myself back into French.
I still think shit sucks, where I work, we often make fun of this very situation, and just poke fun at each other because we have a lot of French employees (from France) and even they don't understand why Quebec makes such a big deal about the language.
On June 28 2013 10:51 Uncultured wrote: They are your employer. They pay you do do whatever the fuck they like. You do it, or you don't get paid. That's how I feel about this.
People have rights and stuff.
People don't have the right to a job. People don't have to do what they're told by their employer to do. If this were happening to every job, that would be one thing. This is only happening for that one job that decided to do this. You can choose not to work there.
On one hand, this kind of aggressive language policing seems like a losing battle in the age of the internet and whatnot. On the other hand as someone who graduated from a Canadian high school with no real third language skills (ie, languages that I had the option to take) I wish that bilingualism was more widespread. Certainly wish I spoke more languages and being forced to do so would have been one way to get my lazy dumbass to do it.
On June 28 2013 10:51 Uncultured wrote: They are your employer. They pay you do do whatever the fuck they like. You do it, or you don't get paid. That's how I feel about this.
People have rights and stuff.
People don't have the right to a job. People don't have to do what they're told by their employer to do. If this were happening to every job, that would be one thing. This is only happening for that one job that decided to do this. You can choose not to work there.
On June 28 2013 10:51 Uncultured wrote: They are your employer. They pay you do do whatever the fuck they like. You do it, or you don't get paid. That's how I feel about this.
People have rights and stuff.
People don't have the right to a job. People don't have to do what they're told by their employer to do. If this were happening to every job, that would be one thing. This is only happening for that one job that decided to do this. You can choose not to work there.
What if there is at least one other employer who does this? Where do you draw the line?
Personally, I am okay with it until 16.539 employers do it.
On June 28 2013 10:51 Uncultured wrote: They are your employer. They pay you do do whatever the fuck they like. You do it, or you don't get paid. That's how I feel about this.
People have rights and stuff.
People don't have the right to a job. People don't have to do what they're told by their employer to do. If this were happening to every job, that would be one thing. This is only happening for that one job that decided to do this. You can choose not to work there.
People have the right to not be discriminated in their workplace just as they are supposed to be free of discrimination outside of the workplace. Asking your staff to follow company policy and speak a specific language when dealing with your customers is one thing. Telling them what they can do in their own time is something you can't do.
On June 28 2013 10:51 Uncultured wrote: They are your employer. They pay you do do whatever the fuck they like. You do it, or you don't get paid. That's how I feel about this.
People have rights and stuff.
People don't have the right to a job. People don't have to do what they're told by their employer to do. If this were happening to every job, that would be one thing. This is only happening for that one job that decided to do this. You can choose not to work there.
So what would prevent everyone else from doing this, by your logic, then? And if everyone else did this, what would you do?
On June 28 2013 10:51 Uncultured wrote: They are your employer. They pay you do do whatever the fuck they like. You do it, or you don't get paid. That's how I feel about this.
People have rights and stuff.
People don't have the right to a job. People don't have to do what they're told by their employer to do. If this were happening to every job, that would be one thing. This is only happening for that one job that decided to do this. You can choose not to work there.
So what would prevent everyone else from doing this, by your logic, then? And if everyone else did this, what would you do?
Prevent them from doing this? Not having any workers. Terrible public opinion. Loss of sales/revenue due to bad business practice. I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying that is how it happens.
On June 28 2013 10:51 Uncultured wrote: They are your employer. They pay you do do whatever the fuck they like. You do it, or you don't get paid. That's how I feel about this.
People have rights and stuff.
People don't have the right to a job. People don't have to do what they're told by their employer to do. If this were happening to every job, that would be one thing. This is only happening for that one job that decided to do this. You can choose not to work there.
People have the right to not be discriminated in their workplace just as they are supposed to be free of discrimination outside of the workplace. Asking your staff to follow company policy and speak a specific language when dealing with your customers is one thing. Telling them what they can do in their own time is something you can't do.
If it's on their own time it's horseshit, and I agree with you completely. But if it's referring to speaking to customers, then I understand it.
On June 28 2013 10:51 Uncultured wrote: They are your employer. They pay you do do whatever the fuck they like. You do it, or you don't get paid. That's how I feel about this.
People have rights and stuff.
People don't have the right to a job. People don't have to do what they're told by their employer to do. If this were happening to every job, that would be one thing. This is only happening for that one job that decided to do this. You can choose not to work there.
So what would prevent everyone else from doing this, by your logic, then? And if everyone else did this, what would you do?
Prevent them from doing this? Not having any workers. Terrible public opinion. Loss of sales/revenue due to bad business practice. I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying that is how it happens.
I don't understand the point you're making.
Obviously this happens otherwise this thread and news article wouldn't exist.
On June 28 2013 10:51 Uncultured wrote: They are your employer. They pay you do do whatever the fuck they like. You do it, or you don't get paid. That's how I feel about this.
People have rights and stuff.
People don't have the right to a job. People don't have to do what they're told by their employer to do. If this were happening to every job, that would be one thing. This is only happening for that one job that decided to do this. You can choose not to work there.
People have the right to not be discriminated in their workplace just as they are supposed to be free of discrimination outside of the workplace. Asking your staff to follow company policy and speak a specific language when dealing with your customers is one thing. Telling them what they can do in their own time is something you can't do.
If it's on their own time it's horseshit, and I agree with you completely. But if it's referring to speaking to customers, then I understand it.
The whole complaint of the article though was the employee being unallowed to speak it in the break room/to other employees. Breaks are your own time.
I can understand management not wanting employees talking in english infront of customers but when not dealing with it who cares?
On June 28 2013 10:51 Uncultured wrote: They are your employer. They pay you do do whatever the fuck they like. You do it, or you don't get paid. That's how I feel about this.
Seriously? Really should think this one through...
On June 28 2013 10:51 Uncultured wrote: They are your employer. They pay you do do whatever the fuck they like. You do it, or you don't get paid. That's how I feel about this.
People have rights and stuff.
People don't have the right to a job. People don't have to do what they're told by their employer to do. If this were happening to every job, that would be one thing. This is only happening for that one job that decided to do this. You can choose not to work there.
People have the right to not be discriminated in their workplace just as they are supposed to be free of discrimination outside of the workplace. Asking your staff to follow company policy and speak a specific language when dealing with your customers is one thing. Telling them what they can do in their own time is something you can't do.
If it's on their own time it's horseshit, and I agree with you completely. But if it's referring to speaking to customers, then I understand it.
The whole complaint of the article though was the employee being unallowed to speak it in the break room/to other employees. Breaks are your own time.
I can understand management not wanting employees talking in english infront of customers but when not dealing with it who cares?
I'm sorry then, I totally misread the OP. I though reference to "the floor" meant in front of customers/the selling floor of the business.
Pauline Marois's retardedly stubborn government is totally ruining the province and the reputation of Canada as an open, free and democratic country. Pathetic policies that are irrationally founded on a completely dead sovereignist movement. And that's assuming that the severely butchered pseudo-french that the quebeckers speak here in Quebec is considered French in the first place. What a failure.
On June 28 2013 10:51 Uncultured wrote: They are your employer. They pay you do do whatever the fuck they like. You do it, or you don't get paid. That's how I feel about this.
People have rights and stuff.
People don't have the right to a job. People don't have to do what they're told by their employer to do. If this were happening to every job, that would be one thing. This is only happening for that one job that decided to do this. You can choose not to work there.
People have the right to not be discriminated in their workplace just as they are supposed to be free of discrimination outside of the workplace. Asking your staff to follow company policy and speak a specific language when dealing with your customers is one thing. Telling them what they can do in their own time is something you can't do.
If it's on their own time it's horseshit, and I agree with you completely. But if it's referring to speaking to customers, then I understand it.
Read the article, please.
Obviously everyone would understand if the policy only applied to customers.
It's funny, I travelled through Quebec last year and there was a weird tension between the English and French. There was a definite antipathy for me in some places when I spoke English. My Aussie accent couldn't even save me
On June 28 2013 11:10 RowdierBob wrote: It's funny, I travelled through Quebec last year and there was a weird tension between the English and French. There was a definite antipathy for me in some places when I spoke English. My Aussie accent couldn't even save me
It wasn't because you spoke English, it was because you're an Aussie. Sorry, mate!
On June 28 2013 10:51 Uncultured wrote: They are your employer. They pay you do do whatever the fuck they like. You do it, or you don't get paid. That's how I feel about this.
Said no slave ever....
Seriously that is the most ignorant belief....
I work in southern California and I used to work in a Mexican restaurant, me being pretty much the only white guy who worked there. Most of the Mexican's would speak in Spanish to each other and English to the customers. One of my coworkers (a high strung elder white woman) would always get mad at them for speaking Spanish because she was convinced they were talking about her. If she took a moment to learn a little Spanish she could tell that 99% of the time they were talking about sports or music.
It's weird for some people to speak their second language to others they know speak their first. My gf is from S. Korea, and she never talks to the other Koreans we know in English even if i'm around. They all speak pretty good English, but it's unconformable for them to speak to each other.
It's way overboard for people to force you to speak a language if you are talking on your break. I could understand talking to customers, and it should be ok to talk to customers in English if they engage the English conversation.
On June 28 2013 10:51 Uncultured wrote: They are your employer. They pay you do do whatever the fuck they like. You do it, or you don't get paid. That's how I feel about this.
People have rights and stuff.
People don't have the right to a job. People don't have to do what they're told by their employer to do. If this were happening to every job, that would be one thing. This is only happening for that one job that decided to do this. You can choose not to work there.
People have the right to not be discriminated in their workplace just as they are supposed to be free of discrimination outside of the workplace. Asking your staff to follow company policy and speak a specific language when dealing with your customers is one thing. Telling them what they can do in their own time is something you can't do.
If it's on their own time it's horseshit, and I agree with you completely. But if it's referring to speaking to customers, then I understand it.
Read the article, please.
Obviously everyone would understand if the policy only applied to customers.
I'm retarded, forgive me for not reading the article. The OP was very limited in this regard. My bad.
On June 28 2013 10:51 Uncultured wrote: They are your employer. They pay you do do whatever the fuck they like. You do it, or you don't get paid. That's how I feel about this.
Said no slave ever....
Seriously that is the most ignorant belief....
Slaves don't get paid, what's your point? Also, please understand my argument was from a ignorant belief that this was about speaking to customers, not to other coworkers during break time. I've since been corrected.
On June 28 2013 11:15 kukarachaa wrote: Silly rule, but they have every right to enforce it. Doesn't matter if it happens during breaks, it is still on company's property.
Constitutional lawyer and human rights expert Julius Grey said he thinks it's a clear violation of freedom of expression and equality.
“I do not see how it serves any purpose for a person who is capable of serving the public in French, and does because that's a duty and that's a given, to speak French other than English or Spanish or Italian to his friend on his break. It's a demand that simply doesn't have a sufficient justification to justify going against basic rights,” said Grey.
The store's administration explained it this way in an audio recording: “Mme. Menard is French Canadian, who signs the paycheques. She's asking that inside these walls people speak the language of work which is Quebec's language. It's the law.”
It's not the law, however.
Office québécois de la langue française spokesperson Martin Bergeron said there is no provision in the French language charter that prevents employees from speaking English to each other during the course of a workday.
It can probably be challenged in the courts and I would bet my money on it being found unconstitutional.
On June 28 2013 11:09 sorrowptoss wrote: Pauline Marois's retardedly stubborn government is totally ruining the province and the reputation of Canada as an open, free and democratic country. Pathetic policies that are irrationally founded on a completely dead sovereignist movement. And that's assuming that the severely butchered pseudo-french that the quebeckers speak here in Quebec is considered French in the first place. What a failure.
Why insult our pseudo-french? It wouldn't be that way if we hadn't gotten fucked until like the 60's... It always makes me laugh when people criticize our butchered language... guess how it got like that. We got shit on for well over a hundred years because why be humane with a conquered people?
We have a fair share of racists and bigots (that sticks for a while after a culture gets told to "speak white [english]" for speaking French in public in Montreal all the way up to the 60's). This anger toward the English-speaking canadians has led to a huge portion of the rest of Canada to treat us like scum and discriminating against us too. You people are just disgusting as our shitheads sometimes.
On June 28 2013 11:15 kukarachaa wrote: Silly rule, but they have every right to enforce it. Doesn't matter if it happens during breaks, it is still on company's property.
Constitutional lawyer and human rights expert Julius Grey said he thinks it's a clear violation of freedom of expression and equality.
“I do not see how it serves any purpose for a person who is capable of serving the public in French, and does because that's a duty and that's a given, to speak French other than English or Spanish or Italian to his friend on his break. It's a demand that simply doesn't have a sufficient justification to justify going against basic rights,” said Grey.
The store's administration explained it this way in an audio recording: “Mme. Menard is French Canadian, who signs the paycheques. She's asking that inside these walls people speak the language of work which is Quebec's language. It's the law.”
It's not the law, however.
Office québécois de la langue française spokesperson Martin Bergeron said there is no provision in the French language charter that prevents employees from speaking English to each other during the course of a workday.
It can probably be challenged in the courts and I would bet my money on it being found unconstitutional.
Or he could just add the manager's name, phone number, and address to the OP and have the internet mobs flood him with phone calls criticising his ridiculous policy :D. + Show Spoiler +
On June 28 2013 11:10 RowdierBob wrote: It's funny, I travelled through Quebec last year and there was a weird tension between the English and French. There was a definite antipathy for me in some places when I spoke English. My Aussie accent couldn't even save me
It wasn't because you spoke English, it was because you're an Aussie. Sorry, mate!
On June 28 2013 11:15 kukarachaa wrote: Silly rule, but they have every right to enforce it. Doesn't matter if it happens during breaks, it is still on company's property.
Constitutional lawyer and human rights expert Julius Grey said he thinks it's a clear violation of freedom of expression and equality.
“I do not see how it serves any purpose for a person who is capable of serving the public in French, and does because that's a duty and that's a given, to speak French other than English or Spanish or Italian to his friend on his break. It's a demand that simply doesn't have a sufficient justification to justify going against basic rights,” said Grey.
The store's administration explained it this way in an audio recording: “Mme. Menard is French Canadian, who signs the paycheques. She's asking that inside these walls people speak the language of work which is Quebec's language. It's the law.”
It's not the law, however.
Office québécois de la langue française spokesperson Martin Bergeron said there is no provision in the French language charter that prevents employees from speaking English to each other during the course of a workday.
It can probably be challenged in the courts and I would bet my money on it being found unconstitutional.
Or he could just add the manager's name, phone number, and address to the OP and have the internet mobs flood him with phone calls criticising his ridiculous policy :D. + Show Spoiler +
just kidding
She's not gonna understand that gibberish English.
On June 28 2013 10:35 a176 wrote: Quebec does have a language gestapo to enforce francophone as the primary language ... but this is the first ive heard of something like this going so far.
This language issue is really ridiculous, its entirely authoritarian and foreign. It's like something out of Russia, or whatever. How the fuck do these notions survive in an otherwise civilized society?
On June 28 2013 11:09 sorrowptoss wrote: Pauline Marois's retardedly stubborn government is totally ruining the province and the reputation of Canada as an open, free and democratic country. Pathetic policies that are irrationally founded on a completely dead sovereignist movement. And that's assuming that the severely butchered pseudo-french that the quebeckers speak here in Quebec is considered French in the first place. What a failure.
Why insult our pseudo-french? It wouldn't be that way if we hadn't gotten fucked until like the 60's... It always makes me laugh when people criticize our butchered language... guess how it got like that. We got shit on for well over a hundred years because why be humane with a conquered people?
We have a fair share of racists and bigots (that sticks for a while after a culture gets told to "speak white [english]" for speaking French in public in Montreal all the way up to the 60's). This anger toward the English-speaking canadians has led to a huge portion of the rest of Canada to treat us like scum and discriminating against us too. You people are just disgusting as our shitheads sometimes.
Get a grip. A minority population of french speakers living around a larger english population? No shit your language is going to be influenced dramatically.
On June 28 2013 11:09 sorrowptoss wrote: Pauline Marois's retardedly stubborn government is totally ruining the province and the reputation of Canada as an open, free and democratic country. Pathetic policies that are irrationally founded on a completely dead sovereignist movement. And that's assuming that the severely butchered pseudo-french that the quebeckers speak here in Quebec is considered French in the first place. What a failure.
Why insult our pseudo-french? It wouldn't be that way if we hadn't gotten fucked until like the 60's... It always makes me laugh when people criticize our butchered language... guess how it got like that. We got shit on for well over a hundred years because why be humane with a conquered people?
We have a fair share of racists and bigots (that sticks for a while after a culture gets told to "speak white [english]" for speaking French in public in Montreal all the way up to the 60's). This anger toward the English-speaking canadians has led to a huge portion of the rest of Canada to treat us like scum and discriminating against us too. You people are just disgusting as our shitheads sometimes.
Well it's funny because automotically assumed that I wasn't from Quebec. I'm from Montreal and I'm currently living in Montreal and I am more francophone than anglophone. I'm just being dead honest with the french that I myself speak. I'm not trying to be mean or anything either.
On June 28 2013 10:35 a176 wrote: Quebec does have a language gestapo to enforce francophone as the primary language ... but this is the first ive heard of something like this going so far.
This language issue is really ridiculous, its entirely authoritarian and foreign. It's like something out of Russia, or whatever. How the fuck do these notions survive in an otherwise civilized society?
Well I like to think that most measures of promotion of French are not too bad, although some laws are indeed pretty ridiculous.
But the reason why these notions survive in an otherwise civilized society is because there's a backwash of bad blood that remains from the old days when Quebecers were oppressed. It doesn't justify it at all because it's no longer the case, but that's why. Let's not forget that the rivality is still strong. It's easy to be a simpleton and view the quebecers as the bad guys and the canadians as perfectly great people who are irritated at those mean quebecer dicks... But both sides feel like the others are disrespectful to them, which only feeds the fire.
Perhaps quebecers are more guilty but it's not going to stop. Just reading this thread, it's quite obvious that many, many people, even Canadians, are incredibly bitter against pretty much the whole lot of us. Insulting our French for instance is just a dick move.
On June 28 2013 11:15 kukarachaa wrote: Silly rule, but they have every right to enforce it. Doesn't matter if it happens during breaks, it is still on company's property.
Constitutional lawyer and human rights expert Julius Grey said he thinks it's a clear violation of freedom of expression and equality.
“I do not see how it serves any purpose for a person who is capable of serving the public in French, and does because that's a duty and that's a given, to speak French other than English or Spanish or Italian to his friend on his break. It's a demand that simply doesn't have a sufficient justification to justify going against basic rights,” said Grey.
The store's administration explained it this way in an audio recording: “Mme. Menard is French Canadian, who signs the paycheques. She's asking that inside these walls people speak the language of work which is Quebec's language. It's the law.”
It's not the law, however.
Office québécois de la langue française spokesperson Martin Bergeron said there is no provision in the French language charter that prevents employees from speaking English to each other during the course of a workday.
It can probably be challenged in the courts and I would bet my money on it being found unconstitutional.
Or he could just add the manager's name, phone number, and address to the OP and have the internet mobs flood him with phone calls criticising his ridiculous policy :D. + Show Spoiler +
just kidding
She's not gonna understand that gibberish English.
On June 28 2013 11:09 sorrowptoss wrote: Pauline Marois's retardedly stubborn government is totally ruining the province and the reputation of Canada as an open, free and democratic country. Pathetic policies that are irrationally founded on a completely dead sovereignist movement. And that's assuming that the severely butchered pseudo-french that the quebeckers speak here in Quebec is considered French in the first place. What a failure.
Why insult our pseudo-french? It wouldn't be that way if we hadn't gotten fucked until like the 60's... It always makes me laugh when people criticize our butchered language... guess how it got like that. We got shit on for well over a hundred years because why be humane with a conquered people?
We have a fair share of racists and bigots (that sticks for a while after a culture gets told to "speak white [english]" for speaking French in public in Montreal all the way up to the 60's). This anger toward the English-speaking canadians has led to a huge portion of the rest of Canada to treat us like scum and discriminating against us too. You people are just disgusting as our shitheads sometimes.
Well it's funny because automotically assumed that I wasn't from Quebec. I'm from Montreal and I'm currently living in Montreal and I am more francophone than anglophone. I'm just being dead honest with the french that I myself speak. I'm not trying to be mean or anything either.
I don't think it's useful to talk down our language... it's admittedly butchered French but I don't think anyone can blame us for having butchered it. Things were lined up for that language to die off.
On June 28 2013 10:35 a176 wrote: Quebec does have a language gestapo to enforce francophone as the primary language ... but this is the first ive heard of something like this going so far.
This language issue is really ridiculous, its entirely authoritarian and foreign. It's like something out of Russia, or whatever. How the fuck do these notions survive in an otherwise civilized society?
Well I like to think that most measures of promotion of French are not too bad, although some laws are indeed pretty ridiculous.
But the reason why these notions survive in an otherwise civilized society is because there's a backwash of bad blood that remains from the old days when Quebecers were oppressed. It doesn't justify it at all because it's no longer the case, but that's why. Let's not forget that the rivality is still strong. It's easy to be a simpleton and view the quebecers as the bad guys and the canadians as perfectly great people who are irritated at those mean quebecer dicks... But both sides feel like the others are disrespectful to them, which only feeds the fire.
Perhaps quebecers are more guilty but it's not going to stop. Just reading this thread, it's quite obvious that many, many people, even Canadians, are incredibly bitter against pretty much the whole lot of us. Insulting our French for instance is just a dick move.
Were bitter about Quebec politics, no one holds enmity towards individual quebecers though. No one hears 'oh hes from Quebec' and thinks less of anyone. And I blame politicians outside of Quebec just as much as ones inside it for the current state of affairs. If we hadn't bent over backwards so often and given validation to more and more demands, I think we'd be in a hell of a lot better position.
On June 28 2013 11:09 sorrowptoss wrote: Pauline Marois's retardedly stubborn government is totally ruining the province and the reputation of Canada as an open, free and democratic country. Pathetic policies that are irrationally founded on a completely dead sovereignist movement. And that's assuming that the severely butchered pseudo-french that the quebeckers speak here in Quebec is considered French in the first place. What a failure.
Why insult our pseudo-french? It wouldn't be that way if we hadn't gotten fucked until like the 60's... It always makes me laugh when people criticize our butchered language... guess how it got like that. We got shit on for well over a hundred years because why be humane with a conquered people?
We have a fair share of racists and bigots (that sticks for a while after a culture gets told to "speak white [english]" for speaking French in public in Montreal all the way up to the 60's). This anger toward the English-speaking canadians has led to a huge portion of the rest of Canada to treat us like scum and discriminating against us too. You people are just disgusting as our shitheads sometimes.
Well it's funny because automotically assumed that I wasn't from Quebec. I'm from Montreal and I'm currently living in Montreal and I am more francophone than anglophone. I'm just being dead honest with the french that I myself speak. I'm not trying to be mean or anything either.
I don't think it's useful to talk down our language... it's admittedly butchered French but I don't think anyone can blame us for having butchered it. Things were lined up for that language to die off.
Yes I agree, but what I was saying was that Pauline Marois isn't making it any better, especially with the new policies.
On June 28 2013 10:35 a176 wrote: Quebec does have a language gestapo to enforce francophone as the primary language ... but this is the first ive heard of something like this going so far.
This language issue is really ridiculous, its entirely authoritarian and foreign. It's like something out of Russia, or whatever. How the fuck do these notions survive in an otherwise civilized society?
Well I like to think that most measures of promotion of French are not too bad, although some laws are indeed pretty ridiculous.
But the reason why these notions survive in an otherwise civilized society is because there's a backwash of bad blood that remains from the old days when Quebecers were oppressed. It doesn't justify it at all because it's no longer the case, but that's why. Let's not forget that the rivality is still strong. It's easy to be a simpleton and view the quebecers as the bad guys and the canadians as perfectly great people who are irritated at those mean quebecer dicks... But both sides feel like the others are disrespectful to them, which only feeds the fire.
Perhaps quebecers are more guilty but it's not going to stop. Just reading this thread, it's quite obvious that many, many people, even Canadians, are incredibly bitter against pretty much the whole lot of us. Insulting our French for instance is just a dick move.
Were bitter about Quebec politics, no one holds enmity towards individual quebecers though. No one heres 'oh hes from Quebec' and thinks less of anyone. And I blame politicians outside of Quebec just as much as ones inside it for the current state of affairs. If we hadn't bent over backwards so often and given validation to more and more demands, I think we'd be in a hell of a lot better position.
Well then many will argue that we elect our politicians democratically and so they have popular support. The thing is, obviously we vote for an entire platform, and so some laws which are undesirable for most of us still make it through the assemblée nationale, unfortunately.
On June 28 2013 11:09 sorrowptoss wrote: Pauline Marois's retardedly stubborn government is totally ruining the province and the reputation of Canada as an open, free and democratic country. Pathetic policies that are irrationally founded on a completely dead sovereignist movement. And that's assuming that the severely butchered pseudo-french that the quebeckers speak here in Quebec is considered French in the first place. What a failure.
Why insult our pseudo-french? It wouldn't be that way if we hadn't gotten fucked until like the 60's... It always makes me laugh when people criticize our butchered language... guess how it got like that. We got shit on for well over a hundred years because why be humane with a conquered people?
We have a fair share of racists and bigots (that sticks for a while after a culture gets told to "speak white [english]" for speaking French in public in Montreal all the way up to the 60's). This anger toward the English-speaking canadians has led to a huge portion of the rest of Canada to treat us like scum and discriminating against us too. You people are just disgusting as our shitheads sometimes.
Well it's funny because automotically assumed that I wasn't from Quebec. I'm from Montreal and I'm currently living in Montreal and I am more francophone than anglophone. I'm just being dead honest with the french that I myself speak. I'm not trying to be mean or anything either.
I don't think it's useful to talk down our language... it's admittedly butchered French but I don't think anyone can blame us for having butchered it. Things were lined up for that language to die off.
Yes I agree, but what I was saying was that Pauline Marois isn't making it any better, especially with the new policies.
True.
On June 28 2013 11:48 MooMu wrote: Languages evolve. It's just a "dialect".
On June 28 2013 10:35 a176 wrote: Quebec does have a language gestapo to enforce francophone as the primary language ... but this is the first ive heard of something like this going so far.
This language issue is really ridiculous, its entirely authoritarian and foreign. It's like something out of Russia, or whatever. How the fuck do these notions survive in an otherwise civilized society?
Well I like to think that most measures of promotion of French are not too bad, although some laws are indeed pretty ridiculous.
But the reason why these notions survive in an otherwise civilized society is because there's a backwash of bad blood that remains from the old days when Quebecers were oppressed. It doesn't justify it at all because it's no longer the case, but that's why. Let's not forget that the rivality is still strong. It's easy to be a simpleton and view the quebecers as the bad guys and the canadians as perfectly great people who are irritated at those mean quebecer dicks... But both sides feel like the others are disrespectful to them, which only feeds the fire.
Perhaps quebecers are more guilty but it's not going to stop. Just reading this thread, it's quite obvious that many, many people, even Canadians, are incredibly bitter against pretty much the whole lot of us. Insulting our French for instance is just a dick move.
Were bitter about Quebec politics, no one holds enmity towards individual quebecers though. No one heres 'oh hes from Quebec' and thinks less of anyone. And I blame politicians outside of Quebec just as much as ones inside it for the current state of affairs. If we hadn't bent over backwards so often and given validation to more and more demands, I think we'd be in a hell of a lot better position.
Well then many will argue that we elect our politicians democratically and so they have popular support. The thing is, obviously we vote for an entire platform, and so some laws which are undesirable for most of us still make it through the assemblée nationale, unfortunately.
Yep. I did read that provincial politics are increasingly falling on right-left divides as opposed to nationalist/federalist lines, is that true? Things will eventually sort themselves out politically..
On June 28 2013 10:35 a176 wrote: Quebec does have a language gestapo to enforce francophone as the primary language ... but this is the first ive heard of something like this going so far.
This language issue is really ridiculous, its entirely authoritarian and foreign. It's like something out of Russia, or whatever. How the fuck do these notions survive in an otherwise civilized society?
Well I like to think that most measures of promotion of French are not too bad, although some laws are indeed pretty ridiculous.
But the reason why these notions survive in an otherwise civilized society is because there's a backwash of bad blood that remains from the old days when Quebecers were oppressed. It doesn't justify it at all because it's no longer the case, but that's why. Let's not forget that the rivality is still strong. It's easy to be a simpleton and view the quebecers as the bad guys and the canadians as perfectly great people who are irritated at those mean quebecer dicks... But both sides feel like the others are disrespectful to them, which only feeds the fire.
Perhaps quebecers are more guilty but it's not going to stop. Just reading this thread, it's quite obvious that many, many people, even Canadians, are incredibly bitter against pretty much the whole lot of us. Insulting our French for instance is just a dick move.
Were bitter about Quebec politics, no one holds enmity towards individual quebecers though. No one heres 'oh hes from Quebec' and thinks less of anyone. And I blame politicians outside of Quebec just as much as ones inside it for the current state of affairs. If we hadn't bent over backwards so often and given validation to more and more demands, I think we'd be in a hell of a lot better position.
Well then many will argue that we elect our politicians democratically and so they have popular support. The thing is, obviously we vote for an entire platform, and so some laws which are undesirable for most of us still make it through the assemblée nationale, unfortunately.
Yep. I did read that provincial politics are increasingly falling on right-left divides as opposed to nationalist/federalist lines, is that true? Things will eventually sort themselves out politically..
There are efforts to bring the debate back to the left/right, but the separation/federalism debate is still going on, and since there aren't many parties, many people have views which are fundamentally incompatible with at least one axis of all serious political platforms which are offered. They still vote and they hate it.
If you're on the left in Quebec, as many of us, there's only the PQ, which is also a separatist party... so if you want to vote for the left, you're also voting for the a rather confused QC nationalist party. The alternative is the right - and fuck that IMO.
Um I might be misunderstanding things but this seems perfectly natural to me? I'm a phd student in the US and groups lead by Chinese PIs with mostly Chinese students are still expected to work in English for the benefit of the non Chinese people in the group, as they damn well should. If French is the official language in Montreal expecting people to work in French makes a lot of sense.
On June 28 2013 10:35 a176 wrote: Quebec does have a language gestapo to enforce francophone as the primary language ... but this is the first ive heard of something like this going so far.
This language issue is really ridiculous, its entirely authoritarian and foreign. It's like something out of Russia, or whatever. How the fuck do these notions survive in an otherwise civilized society?
Well I like to think that most measures of promotion of French are not too bad, although some laws are indeed pretty ridiculous.
But the reason why these notions survive in an otherwise civilized society is because there's a backwash of bad blood that remains from the old days when Quebecers were oppressed. It doesn't justify it at all because it's no longer the case, but that's why. Let's not forget that the rivality is still strong. It's easy to be a simpleton and view the quebecers as the bad guys and the canadians as perfectly great people who are irritated at those mean quebecer dicks... But both sides feel like the others are disrespectful to them, which only feeds the fire.
Perhaps quebecers are more guilty but it's not going to stop. Just reading this thread, it's quite obvious that many, many people, even Canadians, are incredibly bitter against pretty much the whole lot of us. Insulting our French for instance is just a dick move.
Were bitter about Quebec politics, no one holds enmity towards individual quebecers though. No one heres 'oh hes from Quebec' and thinks less of anyone. And I blame politicians outside of Quebec just as much as ones inside it for the current state of affairs. If we hadn't bent over backwards so often and given validation to more and more demands, I think we'd be in a hell of a lot better position.
Well then many will argue that we elect our politicians democratically and so they have popular support. The thing is, obviously we vote for an entire platform, and so some laws which are undesirable for most of us still make it through the assemblée nationale, unfortunately.
Yep. I did read that provincial politics are increasingly falling on right-left divides as opposed to nationalist/federalist lines, is that true? Things will eventually sort themselves out politically..
There are efforts to bring the debate back to the left/right, but the separation/federalism debate is still going on, and since there aren't many parties, many people have views which are fundamentally incompatible with at least one axis of all serious political platforms which are offered. They still vote and they hate it.
If you're on the left in Quebec, as many of us, there's only the PQ, which is also a separatist party... so if you want to vote for the left, you're also voting for the a rather confused QC nationalist party. The alternative is the right - and fuck that IMO.
I'm personally quite boned.
Y'all took well to that orange party, though, in the last election, no? I knew you were all a bunch of pinko communists.
On June 28 2013 11:54 KlaCkoN wrote: Um I might be misunderstanding things but this seems perfectly natural to me? I'm a phd student in the US and groups lead by Chinese PIs with mostly Chinese students are still expected to work in English for the benefit of the non Chinese people in the group, as they damn well should. If French is the official language in Montreal expecting people to work in French makes a lot of sense.
Please read the OP. The employees are expected to speak French even on their lunch breaks. Last I checked, employees aren't working when they're eating lunch (at the place where I work, employees clock out when they go to lunch, so it would be illegal for a manager to require them to do any duties of employment).
On June 28 2013 10:35 a176 wrote: Quebec does have a language gestapo to enforce francophone as the primary language ... but this is the first ive heard of something like this going so far.
This language issue is really ridiculous, its entirely authoritarian and foreign. It's like something out of Russia, or whatever. How the fuck do these notions survive in an otherwise civilized society?
Well I like to think that most measures of promotion of French are not too bad, although some laws are indeed pretty ridiculous.
But the reason why these notions survive in an otherwise civilized society is because there's a backwash of bad blood that remains from the old days when Quebecers were oppressed. It doesn't justify it at all because it's no longer the case, but that's why. Let's not forget that the rivality is still strong. It's easy to be a simpleton and view the quebecers as the bad guys and the canadians as perfectly great people who are irritated at those mean quebecer dicks... But both sides feel like the others are disrespectful to them, which only feeds the fire.
Perhaps quebecers are more guilty but it's not going to stop. Just reading this thread, it's quite obvious that many, many people, even Canadians, are incredibly bitter against pretty much the whole lot of us. Insulting our French for instance is just a dick move.
Were bitter about Quebec politics, no one holds enmity towards individual quebecers though. No one heres 'oh hes from Quebec' and thinks less of anyone. And I blame politicians outside of Quebec just as much as ones inside it for the current state of affairs. If we hadn't bent over backwards so often and given validation to more and more demands, I think we'd be in a hell of a lot better position.
Well then many will argue that we elect our politicians democratically and so they have popular support. The thing is, obviously we vote for an entire platform, and so some laws which are undesirable for most of us still make it through the assemblée nationale, unfortunately.
Yep. I did read that provincial politics are increasingly falling on right-left divides as opposed to nationalist/federalist lines, is that true? Things will eventually sort themselves out politically..
There are efforts to bring the debate back to the left/right, but the separation/federalism debate is still going on, and since there aren't many parties, many people have views which are fundamentally incompatible with at least one axis of all serious political platforms which are offered. They still vote and they hate it.
If you're on the left in Quebec, as many of us, there's only the PQ, which is also a separatist party... so if you want to vote for the left, you're also voting for the a rather confused QC nationalist party. The alternative is the right - and fuck that IMO.
I'm personally quite boned.
Y'all took well to that orange party, though, in the last election, no? I knew you were all a bunch of pinko communists.
Well Quebecers have a lot of feels and Layton looked like a great guy. But I think you can understand why we'd vote for the NDP, being dem crazy socialists.
That said that's a federal party and it's a different story entirely. If anything, the wild decline of the Bloc Quebecois should be encouraging.
On June 28 2013 10:35 a176 wrote: Quebec does have a language gestapo to enforce francophone as the primary language ... but this is the first ive heard of something like this going so far.
This language issue is really ridiculous, its entirely authoritarian and foreign. It's like something out of Russia, or whatever. How the fuck do these notions survive in an otherwise civilized society?
Well I like to think that most measures of promotion of French are not too bad, although some laws are indeed pretty ridiculous.
But the reason why these notions survive in an otherwise civilized society is because there's a backwash of bad blood that remains from the old days when Quebecers were oppressed. It doesn't justify it at all because it's no longer the case, but that's why. Let's not forget that the rivality is still strong. It's easy to be a simpleton and view the quebecers as the bad guys and the canadians as perfectly great people who are irritated at those mean quebecer dicks... But both sides feel like the others are disrespectful to them, which only feeds the fire.
Perhaps quebecers are more guilty but it's not going to stop. Just reading this thread, it's quite obvious that many, many people, even Canadians, are incredibly bitter against pretty much the whole lot of us. Insulting our French for instance is just a dick move.
Were bitter about Quebec politics, no one holds enmity towards individual quebecers though. No one heres 'oh hes from Quebec' and thinks less of anyone. And I blame politicians outside of Quebec just as much as ones inside it for the current state of affairs. If we hadn't bent over backwards so often and given validation to more and more demands, I think we'd be in a hell of a lot better position.
Well then many will argue that we elect our politicians democratically and so they have popular support. The thing is, obviously we vote for an entire platform, and so some laws which are undesirable for most of us still make it through the assemblée nationale, unfortunately.
Yep. I did read that provincial politics are increasingly falling on right-left divides as opposed to nationalist/federalist lines, is that true? Things will eventually sort themselves out politically..
There are efforts to bring the debate back to the left/right, but the separation/federalism debate is still going on, and since there aren't many parties, many people have views which are fundamentally incompatible with at least one axis of all serious political platforms which are offered. They still vote and they hate it.
If you're on the left in Quebec, as many of us, there's only the PQ, which is also a separatist party... so if you want to vote for the left, you're also voting for the a rather confused QC nationalist party. The alternative is the right - and fuck that IMO.
I'm personally quite boned.
Y'all took well to that orange party, though, in the last election, no? I knew you were all a bunch of pinko communists.
Well Quebecers have a lot of feels and Layton looked like a great guy. But I think you can understand why we'd vote for the NDP, being dem crazy socialists.
That said that's a federal party and it's a different story entirely. If anything, the wild decline of the Bloc Quebecois should be encouraging.
I'm very curious of the next election results in Quebec. It seemed to me people there voted more for Layton than the party, but the backlash, if I can call it that, against the separatists probably contributed a lot to that result.
On June 28 2013 11:54 KlaCkoN wrote: Um I might be misunderstanding things but this seems perfectly natural to me? I'm a phd student in the US and groups lead by Chinese PIs with mostly Chinese students are still expected to work in English for the benefit of the non Chinese people in the group, as they damn well should. If French is the official language in Montreal expecting people to work in French makes a lot of sense.
Please read the OP. The employees are expected to speak French even on their lunch breaks. Last I checked, employees aren't working when they're eating lunch (at the place where I work, employees clock out when they go to lunch, so it would be illegal for a manager to require them to do any duties of employment).
I did read it. And yes it still makes sense? A work environment where people regularly speak a non official language is just weird. It's not like people don't discuss work at lunch break, and speaking English would shut out people not fluent in it, thus putting them at a serious disadvantage in the company game.
Eh? Seems really fine to me, it's a private employer, they have the right to choose what official language you have to speak while working at their institution. Seems really over blown. When I apply for a job or a transfer or internship at another school or area I'm pretty much expected to learn that language and converse in it solely. It's not so much a freedom issue as a cultural identity and practicality issue.
So for instance in Shenzhen starting from the 90's, the government wanted to enforce one common dialect across the country so that the country can finally have an official language instead of having hundreds of regional dialects where it's impossible for foreigners to learn. So they made it compulsory for everyone to speak this specific dialect, even though Shenzhen is right next to Hong Kong and with in the Guangdong Province which speaks Cantonese. All schools enforced it rather strictly, but it standardized the language and preserved a sense of national identity in a extremely developmental city that was to be one of China's most important commercial centers.
That dialect is Mandarin, now seen as the official language of mainland China, and synonymous with "Chinese".
Living near Mexico, I can't imagine any employer trying to prohibit Spanish employees from communicating with each other in Spanish. Granted, it would make a lot of employees notably less efficient since they'd be speaking broken English to one another...
On June 28 2013 10:35 a176 wrote: Quebec does have a language gestapo to enforce francophone as the primary language ... but this is the first ive heard of something like this going so far.
This language issue is really ridiculous, its entirely authoritarian and foreign. It's like something out of Russia, or whatever. How the fuck do these notions survive in an otherwise civilized society?
Well I like to think that most measures of promotion of French are not too bad, although some laws are indeed pretty ridiculous.
But the reason why these notions survive in an otherwise civilized society is because there's a backwash of bad blood that remains from the old days when Quebecers were oppressed. It doesn't justify it at all because it's no longer the case, but that's why. Let's not forget that the rivality is still strong. It's easy to be a simpleton and view the quebecers as the bad guys and the canadians as perfectly great people who are irritated at those mean quebecer dicks... But both sides feel like the others are disrespectful to them, which only feeds the fire.
Perhaps quebecers are more guilty but it's not going to stop. Just reading this thread, it's quite obvious that many, many people, even Canadians, are incredibly bitter against pretty much the whole lot of us. Insulting our French for instance is just a dick move.
Were bitter about Quebec politics, no one holds enmity towards individual quebecers though. No one heres 'oh hes from Quebec' and thinks less of anyone. And I blame politicians outside of Quebec just as much as ones inside it for the current state of affairs. If we hadn't bent over backwards so often and given validation to more and more demands, I think we'd be in a hell of a lot better position.
Well then many will argue that we elect our politicians democratically and so they have popular support. The thing is, obviously we vote for an entire platform, and so some laws which are undesirable for most of us still make it through the assemblée nationale, unfortunately.
Yep. I did read that provincial politics are increasingly falling on right-left divides as opposed to nationalist/federalist lines, is that true? Things will eventually sort themselves out politically..
There are efforts to bring the debate back to the left/right, but the separation/federalism debate is still going on, and since there aren't many parties, many people have views which are fundamentally incompatible with at least one axis of all serious political platforms which are offered. They still vote and they hate it.
If you're on the left in Quebec, as many of us, there's only the PQ, which is also a separatist party... so if you want to vote for the left, you're also voting for the a rather confused QC nationalist party. The alternative is the right - and fuck that IMO.
I'm personally quite boned.
Y'all took well to that orange party, though, in the last election, no? I knew you were all a bunch of pinko communists.
Well Quebecers have a lot of feels and Layton looked like a great guy. But I think you can understand why we'd vote for the NDP, being dem crazy socialists.
That said that's a federal party and it's a different story entirely. If anything, the wild decline of the Bloc Quebecois should be encouraging.
I'm very curious of the next election results in Quebec. It seemed to me people there voted more for Layton than the party, but the backlash, if I can call it that, against the separatists probably contributed a lot to that result.
Yes Layton's personality got the NDP a lot of support. I'm curious about the next federal elections also, I really don't know what's going to happen. It seems like we're going to be out of options.
On June 28 2013 11:10 RowdierBob wrote: It's funny, I travelled through Quebec last year and there was a weird tension between the English and French. There was a definite antipathy for me in some places when I spoke English. My Aussie accent couldn't even save me
It wasn't because you spoke English, it was because you're an Aussie. Sorry, mate!
Canadians hate Aussies too? I really know nothing about Canada, except that there are penguins and they hate Americans.
On June 28 2013 11:54 KlaCkoN wrote: Um I might be misunderstanding things but this seems perfectly natural to me? I'm a phd student in the US and groups lead by Chinese PIs with mostly Chinese students are still expected to work in English for the benefit of the non Chinese people in the group, as they damn well should. If French is the official language in Montreal expecting people to work in French makes a lot of sense.
Please read the OP. The employees are expected to speak French even on their lunch breaks. Last I checked, employees aren't working when they're eating lunch (at the place where I work, employees clock out when they go to lunch, so it would be illegal for a manager to require them to do any duties of employment).
I did read it. And yes it still makes sense? A work environment where people regularly speak a non official language is just weird. It's not like people don't discuss work at lunch break, and speaking English would shut out people not fluent in it, thus putting them at a serious disadvantage in the company game.
I don't know where you work, but at my work place employees are absolutely not required to discuss work during lunch (I work in a store, by the way). I think it's unreasonable for a manager to be that controlling about what employees can do when they're off the clock. Especially if there's a break room, in which case the customers wouldn't have to be traumatized by hearing a language that is different from their native one.
On June 28 2013 11:54 KlaCkoN wrote: Um I might be misunderstanding things but this seems perfectly natural to me? I'm a phd student in the US and groups lead by Chinese PIs with mostly Chinese students are still expected to work in English for the benefit of the non Chinese people in the group, as they damn well should. If French is the official language in Montreal expecting people to work in French makes a lot of sense.
Please read the OP. The employees are expected to speak French even on their lunch breaks. Last I checked, employees aren't working when they're eating lunch (at the place where I work, employees clock out when they go to lunch, so it would be illegal for a manager to require them to do any duties of employment).
But, why? They're still in the break room, on their employer's property.
edit: Let me phrase that a little better. They're still in the break room, "...at the work place."
On June 28 2013 12:14 Slaughter wrote: The thing that seems crazy to me is to have official policies about restrictions on language spoken.
I mean, what if a customer comes in and can't speak french? Do they just keep speaking French until they leave?
Well it does say they can't speak English with one another.
I don't want to defend this, but my mother is a business owner here in Quebec and she speaks very little English. A few years ago, it made her uncomfortable when two of her employees (who were as comfortable in both languages) sometimes spoke English with one another when she was close, as if they didn't want her to understand. She eventually found out that they were complaining about her and even calling her names because she didn't understand the language unless it was spoken very articulately.
On June 28 2013 12:17 Slaughter wrote: Because in a place where both languages are spoken isn't a bit douchey to prohibit one when both are commonly spoken?
Why are they so concerned about pushing French in the first place?
About your second question, the whole rhetoric is about preserving the language, which doesn't sound important to many people but you might thing differently if you were put in a position where you can't get service in your own language in Canada.
That said, I won't deny that some laws are excessively prohibitive. This one rule was for one grocery store though, and it's all kinds of wrong.
On June 28 2013 11:54 KlaCkoN wrote: Um I might be misunderstanding things but this seems perfectly natural to me? I'm a phd student in the US and groups lead by Chinese PIs with mostly Chinese students are still expected to work in English for the benefit of the non Chinese people in the group, as they damn well should. If French is the official language in Montreal expecting people to work in French makes a lot of sense.
Please read the OP. The employees are expected to speak French even on their lunch breaks. Last I checked, employees aren't working when they're eating lunch (at the place where I work, employees clock out when they go to lunch, so it would be illegal for a manager to require them to do any duties of employment).
But, why? They're still in the break room, on their employer's property.
edit: Let me phrase that a little better. They're still in the break room, "...at the work place."
Sure, it is the employer's property and they are free to do as they please. However, they will be judged based on what they do. And I'm judging that manager to be an uptight control freak.
On June 28 2013 10:51 Uncultured wrote: They are your employer. They pay you do do whatever the fuck they like. You do it, or you don't get paid. That's how I feel about this.
Seriously? Really should think this one through...
Why is everyone jumping on this guy? I think he's on the money. Liberals love to talk about "rights", but is there a more basic right than the freedom to choose your own actions? If I refuse to hire someone who doesn't speak Swahili, I haven't stopped him from doing anything. He's free to speak Swahili, and I'm free not to hire him. If you force me to hire him, then you're not protecting his freedom to speak whatever language he chooses. You're infringing mine to hire whatever person I choose. Why is that a lesser freedom?
On June 28 2013 12:14 Slaughter wrote: The thing that seems crazy to me is to have official policies about restrictions on language spoken.
I mean, what if a customer comes in and can't speak french? Do they just keep speaking French until they leave?
Well it does say they can't speak English with one another.
I don't want to defend this, but my mother is a business owner here in Quebec and she speaks very little English. A few years ago, it made her uncomfortable when two of her employees (who were as comfortable in both languages) sometimes spoke English with one another when she was close, as if they didn't want her to understand. She eventually found out that they were complaining about her and even calling her names because she didn't understand the language unless it was spoken very articulately.
On June 28 2013 12:17 Slaughter wrote: Because in a place where both languages are spoken isn't a bit douchey to prohibit one when both are commonly spoken?
Why are they so concerned about pushing French in the first place?
About your second question, the whole rhetoric is about preserving the language, which doesn't sound important to many people but you might thing differently if you were put in a position where you can't get service in your own language.
It just seems funny to me. I have studied about situations where a language is dying and measures were taken to keep it alive and revive it as part of a cultural tradition. Those however were all in third world countries where colonization happened and native culture was suppressed so it seems amusing that a western language in a 1st world country is facing the same.
I'd like to know more about this, is there like a growing "English only" population that is trying to push out the traditional French?
On June 28 2013 12:14 Slaughter wrote: The thing that seems crazy to me is to have official policies about restrictions on language spoken.
I mean, what if a customer comes in and can't speak french? Do they just keep speaking French until they leave?
Well it does say they can't speak English with one another.
I don't want to defend this, but my mother is a business owner here in Quebec and she speaks very little English. A few years ago, it made her uncomfortable when two of her employees (who were as comfortable in both languages) sometimes spoke English with one another when she was close, as if they didn't want her to understand. She eventually found out that they were complaining about her and even calling her names because she didn't understand the language unless it was spoken very articulately.
No need to police the language in order to remedy this issue, though. That's a straight up workplace harassment issue. I can talk shit about my colleagues behind their back without resorting to a different language to do so.
On June 28 2013 12:14 Slaughter wrote: The thing that seems crazy to me is to have official policies about restrictions on language spoken.
I mean, what if a customer comes in and can't speak french? Do they just keep speaking French until they leave?
lol that's what I would do if the company had a ridiculous policy. The store I work at has a policy that the cashier must do the following with every transaction:
1) Ask the customer if they found everything they were looking for. 2) Ask the customer if they'd like to donate a dollar to some random charity. 3) Ask the customer if they'd like to join the email coupon club. 4) Tell the customer about the bounce-back coupon that gets issued with every transaction.
Now I've never gotten scolded for using my common sense about when to omit those steps (i.e. customer is talking on the phone, customer is in the middle of a conversation with a friend who's shopping with them). However, if I did, I'd start being an annoying jackass about always following that protocol to the letter and we'd see how business turned out when every customer got a bunch of verbage spewed at them, regardless of whether they were in the mood to hear it.
The level of ignorance in this thread is pretty high holybanana. Don't you guys realize that Quebec is the only place on the continent where people speak french (excluding some minor exceptions..)? Quebec is surrounded by an enormous amount of english speakers comparatively to it's french speaker population. If Quebec does not fight, french will disappear. Just look at Montreal, it's getting worst everyday. Remember that Quebec is not a country, so don't compare it to France or belgium.
On June 28 2013 12:14 Slaughter wrote: The thing that seems crazy to me is to have official policies about restrictions on language spoken.
I mean, what if a customer comes in and can't speak french? Do they just keep speaking French until they leave?
Well it does say they can't speak English with one another.
I don't want to defend this, but my mother is a business owner here in Quebec and she speaks very little English. A few years ago, it made her uncomfortable when two of her employees (who were as comfortable in both languages) sometimes spoke English with one another when she was close, as if they didn't want her to understand. She eventually found out that they were complaining about her and even calling her names because she didn't understand the language unless it was spoken very articulately.
On June 28 2013 12:17 Slaughter wrote: Because in a place where both languages are spoken isn't a bit douchey to prohibit one when both are commonly spoken?
Why are they so concerned about pushing French in the first place?
About your second question, the whole rhetoric is about preserving the language, which doesn't sound important to many people but you might thing differently if you were put in a position where you can't get service in your own language.
It just seems funny to me. I have studied about situations where a language is dying and measures were taken to keep it alive and revive it as part of a cultural tradition. Those however were all in third world countries where colonization happened and native culture was suppressed so it seems amusing that a western language in a 1st world country is facing the same.
I'd like to know more about this, is there like a growing "English only" population that is trying to push out the traditional French?
There are a lot of people in Montreal who speak little to no French because it's possible to live here while only speaking English. However, there's no conscious desire to push the French out, not generally. However, Montreal being a (small) economic hub, the English population is growing there, faster than the French population.
So essentially the business is increasingly conducted in English and the place of French-speaking Quebecers is just declining naturally. We're still very much present in our suburbs but money is a big deal and so the suburbs are not quite as relevant as Montreal itself, obviously.
French is on the decline, basically, and I believe that it would be declining faster if French-speaking Quebecers weren't using their majority to artificially maintain it alive. But I think you can only do so much, and our language will continue to fade away because we're a small cell of a few millions surrounded by some 350 millions anglophones in the US and the rest of Canada.
It's inevitable and it's not really bad when you think about it, but people have an emotional attachment to their culture and the particularities of their nation.
On June 28 2013 10:51 Uncultured wrote: They are your employer. They pay you do do whatever the fuck they like. You do it, or you don't get paid. That's how I feel about this.
Seriously? Really should think this one through...
Why is everyone jumping on this guy? I think he's on the money. Liberals love to talk about "rights", but is there a more basic right than the freedom to choose your own actions? If I refuse to hire someone who doesn't speak Swahili, I haven't stopped him from doing anything. He's free to speak Swahili, and I'm free not to hire him. If you force me to hire him, then you're not protecting his freedom to speak whatever language he chooses. You're infringing mine to hire whatever person I choose. Why is that a lesser freedom?
These workers have the freedom to speak English on their break without interference by their employer. The employer has the freedom to fire them for breaking her policy of No English on the work site. They have the freedom to sue for wrongful dismissal. It's a pretty free society.
Freedom is also curtailed to a degree to benefit society over the individual's right to act like a fucking barbarian. For example, you're not free to deny employment based on the colour of one's skin.
On June 28 2013 10:51 Uncultured wrote: They are your employer. They pay you do do whatever the fuck they like. You do it, or you don't get paid. That's how I feel about this.
lol
Boss: "after you finish stocking these shelves, suck milk out of my asshole." Uncultured: "YES BOSS!"
this is why Quebec gets shit on by people in other provinces constantly. there are 2 official languages in canada, you can speak either english, or french, or both.
On June 28 2013 10:51 Uncultured wrote: They are your employer. They pay you do do whatever the fuck they like. You do it, or you don't get paid. That's how I feel about this.
lol
Boss: "after you finish stocking these shelves, suck milk out of my asshole." Uncultured: "YES BOSS!"
Well the devil's advocate would say leave and find a job where you don't have to suck milk out of your boss's asshole. Admittedly it may not pay as well.
On June 28 2013 12:33 Xialos wrote: The level of ignorance in this thread is pretty high holybanana. Don't you guys realize that Quebec is the only place on the continent where people speak french (excluding some minor exceptions..)? Quebec is surrounded by an enormous amount of english speakers comparatively to it's french speaker population. If Quebec does not fight, french will disappear. Just look at Montreal, it's getting worst everyday. Remember that Quebec is not a country, so don't compare it to France or belgium.
New Brunswick has plenty of Francophone speakers, and they don't prohibit the use of either French or English.
There is no defense for prohibiting the use of a language, aside from arenas like a school room, for educational purposes.
On June 28 2013 12:14 Slaughter wrote: The thing that seems crazy to me is to have official policies about restrictions on language spoken.
I mean, what if a customer comes in and can't speak french? Do they just keep speaking French until they leave?
Well it does say they can't speak English with one another.
I don't want to defend this, but my mother is a business owner here in Quebec and she speaks very little English. A few years ago, it made her uncomfortable when two of her employees (who were as comfortable in both languages) sometimes spoke English with one another when she was close, as if they didn't want her to understand. She eventually found out that they were complaining about her and even calling her names because she didn't understand the language unless it was spoken very articulately.
On June 28 2013 12:17 Slaughter wrote: Because in a place where both languages are spoken isn't a bit douchey to prohibit one when both are commonly spoken?
Why are they so concerned about pushing French in the first place?
About your second question, the whole rhetoric is about preserving the language, which doesn't sound important to many people but you might thing differently if you were put in a position where you can't get service in your own language.
It just seems funny to me. I have studied about situations where a language is dying and measures were taken to keep it alive and revive it as part of a cultural tradition. Those however were all in third world countries where colonization happened and native culture was suppressed so it seems amusing that a western language in a 1st world country is facing the same.
I'd like to know more about this, is there like a growing "English only" population that is trying to push out the traditional French?
There are a lot of people in Montreal who speak little to no French because it's possible to live here while only speaking English. However, there's no conscious desire to push the French out, not generally. However, Montreal being a (small) economic hub, the English population is growing there, faster than the French population.
So essentially the business is increasingly conducted in English and the place of French-speaking Quebecers is just declining naturally. We're still very much present in our suburbs but money is a big deal.
French is on the decline, basically, and I believe that it would be declining faster if French-speaking Quebecers weren't using their majority to artificially maintain it alive. But I think you can only do so much, and our language will continue to fade away because we're a small cell of a few millions surrounded by some 350 millions anglophones in the US and the rest of Canada.
It's inevitable and it's not really bad when you think about it, but people have an emotional attachment to their culture and the particularities of their nation.
Thanks for the summary. Its interesting, I knew that French was still prominently spoken in Quebec but I wasn't aware that it was as big an issue as it appears to be. I always figured the vast majority of people there were just bilingual and didn't really care that much either way.
Forcing people to speak (or not speak) a given language is insane. Montreal is very politically and socially different than anywhere else in quebec. Even if every person in Montreal stopped speaking French, it wouldn't affect the rest of the province.
On June 28 2013 12:43 CTStalker wrote: Forcing people to speak (or not speak) a given language is insane. Montreal is very politically and socially different than anywhere else in quebec. Even if every person in Montreal stopped speaking French, it wouldn't affect the rest of the province.
Montreal is where a lot of us suburbanites and students congregate every day. A massive lump of the population would be directly affected, and then all the business with the other administrative regions would have to take place in English, which means that a lot of people would lose their jobs because they only speak French and do business with Montreal in French...
There are a lot of things to consider. Montreal is hardly disconnected from the rest.
Also, if you don't start to learn English fast, you lose a lot of job opportunities, pretty much ALL the good job opportunities.
On June 28 2013 12:33 Xialos wrote: The level of ignorance in this thread is pretty high holybanana. Don't you guys realize that Quebec is the only place on the continent where people speak french (excluding some minor exceptions..)? Quebec is surrounded by an enormous amount of english speakers comparatively to it's french speaker population. If Quebec does not fight, french will disappear. Just look at Montreal, it's getting worst everyday. Remember that Quebec is not a country, so don't compare it to France or belgium.
On June 28 2013 12:14 Slaughter wrote: The thing that seems crazy to me is to have official policies about restrictions on language spoken.
I mean, what if a customer comes in and can't speak french? Do they just keep speaking French until they leave?
Well it does say they can't speak English with one another.
I don't want to defend this, but my mother is a business owner here in Quebec and she speaks very little English. A few years ago, it made her uncomfortable when two of her employees (who were as comfortable in both languages) sometimes spoke English with one another when she was close, as if they didn't want her to understand. She eventually found out that they were complaining about her and even calling her names because she didn't understand the language unless it was spoken very articulately.
On June 28 2013 12:17 Slaughter wrote: Because in a place where both languages are spoken isn't a bit douchey to prohibit one when both are commonly spoken?
Why are they so concerned about pushing French in the first place?
About your second question, the whole rhetoric is about preserving the language, which doesn't sound important to many people but you might thing differently if you were put in a position where you can't get service in your own language.
It just seems funny to me. I have studied about situations where a language is dying and measures were taken to keep it alive and revive it as part of a cultural tradition. Those however were all in third world countries where colonization happened and native culture was suppressed so it seems amusing that a western language in a 1st world country is facing the same.
I'd like to know more about this, is there like a growing "English only" population that is trying to push out the traditional French?
There are a lot of people in Montreal who speak little to no French because it's possible to live here while only speaking English. However, there's no conscious desire to push the French out, not generally. However, Montreal being a (small) economic hub, the English population is growing there, faster than the French population.
So essentially the business is increasingly conducted in English and the place of French-speaking Quebecers is just declining naturally. We're still very much present in our suburbs but money is a big deal and so the suburbs are not quite as relevant as Montreal itself, obviously.
French is on the decline, basically, and I believe that it would be declining faster if French-speaking Quebecers weren't using their majority to artificially maintain it alive. But I think you can only do so much, and our language will continue to fade away because we're a small cell of a few millions surrounded by some 350 millions anglophones in the US and the rest of Canada.
It's inevitable and it's not really bad when you think about it, but people have an emotional attachment to their culture and the particularities of their nation.
If education, politics, media and all the hard and soft industries are required to operate in French, I don't know if you have much to worry about. The language may evolve to take on more English elements, but it won't be English replacing your language. It's going to be a French to be proud of and unique to the cultural history of Quebec.
On June 28 2013 12:14 Slaughter wrote: The thing that seems crazy to me is to have official policies about restrictions on language spoken.
I mean, what if a customer comes in and can't speak french? Do they just keep speaking French until they leave?
Well it does say they can't speak English with one another.
I don't want to defend this, but my mother is a business owner here in Quebec and she speaks very little English. A few years ago, it made her uncomfortable when two of her employees (who were as comfortable in both languages) sometimes spoke English with one another when she was close, as if they didn't want her to understand. She eventually found out that they were complaining about her and even calling her names because she didn't understand the language unless it was spoken very articulately.
On June 28 2013 12:17 Slaughter wrote: Because in a place where both languages are spoken isn't a bit douchey to prohibit one when both are commonly spoken?
Why are they so concerned about pushing French in the first place?
About your second question, the whole rhetoric is about preserving the language, which doesn't sound important to many people but you might thing differently if you were put in a position where you can't get service in your own language.
It just seems funny to me. I have studied about situations where a language is dying and measures were taken to keep it alive and revive it as part of a cultural tradition. Those however were all in third world countries where colonization happened and native culture was suppressed so it seems amusing that a western language in a 1st world country is facing the same.
I'd like to know more about this, is there like a growing "English only" population that is trying to push out the traditional French?
There are a lot of people in Montreal who speak little to no French because it's possible to live here while only speaking English. However, there's no conscious desire to push the French out, not generally. However, Montreal being a (small) economic hub, the English population is growing there, faster than the French population.
So essentially the business is increasingly conducted in English and the place of French-speaking Quebecers is just declining naturally. We're still very much present in our suburbs but money is a big deal and so the suburbs are not quite as relevant as Montreal itself, obviously.
French is on the decline, basically, and I believe that it would be declining faster if French-speaking Quebecers weren't using their majority to artificially maintain it alive. But I think you can only do so much, and our language will continue to fade away because we're a small cell of a few millions surrounded by some 350 millions anglophones in the US and the rest of Canada.
It's inevitable and it's not really bad when you think about it, but people have an emotional attachment to their culture and the particularities of their nation.
If education, politics, media and all the hard and soft industries are required to operate in French, I don't know if you have much to worry about. The language may evolve to take on more English elements, but it won't be English replacing your language. It's going to be a French to be proud of and unique to the cultural history of Quebec.
Just my opinion.
Well I'm not too worried about it, but the thing it it's not just elements of English making their way into French, although that does happen, but the fact that some people just go on and live their life in English. I'm one of those people, and I'm not alone. Most of my work takes place in English. High end business takes place in English.
Francophone parents oftentimes would like to send their kids to school in English because they learn their French at home and they learn the tools to have a job in school, might as well.
I don't think French is going to die off anytime soon, far from it. But it's being less and less prevalent. The fact of the matter is, our French is largely useless, and the world is not driven by artifacts like that. People want efficiency, not old cultural relics
On June 28 2013 12:43 CTStalker wrote: Forcing people to speak (or not speak) a given language is insane. Montreal is very politically and socially different than anywhere else in quebec. Even if every person in Montreal stopped speaking French, it wouldn't affect the rest of the province.
Montreal is where a lot of us suburbanites and students congregate every day. A massive lump of the population would be directly affected, and then all the business with the other administrative regions would have to take place in English, which means that a lot of people would lose their jobs because they only speak French and do business with Montreal in French...
There are a lot of things to consider. Montreal is hardly disconnected from the rest.
Also, if you don't start to learn English fast, you lose a lot of job opportunities, pretty much ALL the good job opportunities.
When Quebecers consider language policies, they seem to decide that they must either supress English, or give up French.
I think that's the easiest solution possible, and that it is short sighted.
Isn't the language police an example of bureaucracy running amok?
On June 28 2013 12:43 CTStalker wrote: Forcing people to speak (or not speak) a given language is insane. Montreal is very politically and socially different than anywhere else in quebec. Even if every person in Montreal stopped speaking French, it wouldn't affect the rest of the province.
LOL? You should really delete this post, it's just utterly wrong. Montreal is the metropol of Quebec, it influences the entire province. Socially, politically, economically, etc...
On June 28 2013 12:43 CTStalker wrote: Forcing people to speak (or not speak) a given language is insane. Montreal is very politically and socially different than anywhere else in quebec. Even if every person in Montreal stopped speaking French, it wouldn't affect the rest of the province.
Montreal is where a lot of us suburbanites and students congregate every day. A massive lump of the population would be directly affected, and then all the business with the other administrative regions would have to take place in English, which means that a lot of people would lose their jobs because they only speak French and do business with Montreal in French...
There are a lot of things to consider. Montreal is hardly disconnected from the rest.
Also, if you don't start to learn English fast, you lose a lot of job opportunities, pretty much ALL the good job opportunities.
When Quebecers consider language policies, they seem to decide that they must either supress English, or give up French.
I think that's the easiest solution possible, and that it is short sighted.
Isn't the language police an example of bureaucracy running amok?
All apparent suppression of English is just a biproduct of the attempt to promote French, and I see no other ways to do that. (And I'm not saying that I support it). If that's the easiest solutions, what are better ones?
As for the language police thing, I don't think it's bureaucracy running amok, just ideology with no clear direction because there's no good solution for this identity crisis.
On June 28 2013 12:14 Slaughter wrote: The thing that seems crazy to me is to have official policies about restrictions on language spoken.
I mean, what if a customer comes in and can't speak french? Do they just keep speaking French until they leave?
Well it does say they can't speak English with one another.
I don't want to defend this, but my mother is a business owner here in Quebec and she speaks very little English. A few years ago, it made her uncomfortable when two of her employees (who were as comfortable in both languages) sometimes spoke English with one another when she was close, as if they didn't want her to understand. She eventually found out that they were complaining about her and even calling her names because she didn't understand the language unless it was spoken very articulately.
On June 28 2013 12:17 Slaughter wrote: Because in a place where both languages are spoken isn't a bit douchey to prohibit one when both are commonly spoken?
Why are they so concerned about pushing French in the first place?
About your second question, the whole rhetoric is about preserving the language, which doesn't sound important to many people but you might thing differently if you were put in a position where you can't get service in your own language.
It just seems funny to me. I have studied about situations where a language is dying and measures were taken to keep it alive and revive it as part of a cultural tradition. Those however were all in third world countries where colonization happened and native culture was suppressed so it seems amusing that a western language in a 1st world country is facing the same.
I'd like to know more about this, is there like a growing "English only" population that is trying to push out the traditional French?
There are a lot of people in Montreal who speak little to no French because it's possible to live here while only speaking English. However, there's no conscious desire to push the French out, not generally. However, Montreal being a (small) economic hub, the English population is growing there, faster than the French population.
So essentially the business is increasingly conducted in English and the place of French-speaking Quebecers is just declining naturally. We're still very much present in our suburbs but money is a big deal and so the suburbs are not quite as relevant as Montreal itself, obviously.
French is on the decline, basically, and I believe that it would be declining faster if French-speaking Quebecers weren't using their majority to artificially maintain it alive. But I think you can only do so much, and our language will continue to fade away because we're a small cell of a few millions surrounded by some 350 millions anglophones in the US and the rest of Canada.
It's inevitable and it's not really bad when you think about it, but people have an emotional attachment to their culture and the particularities of their nation.
If education, politics, media and all the hard and soft industries are required to operate in French, I don't know if you have much to worry about. The language may evolve to take on more English elements, but it won't be English replacing your language. It's going to be a French to be proud of and unique to the cultural history of Quebec.
Just my opinion.
Well I'm not too worried about it, but the thing it it's not just elements of English making their way into French, although that does happen, but the fact that some people just go on and live their life in English. I'm one of those people, and I'm not alone. Most of my work takes place in English. High end business takes place in English.
Francophone parents oftentimes would like to send their kids to school in English because they learn their French at home and they learn the tools to have a job in school, might as well.
I don't think French is going to die off anytime soon, far from it. But it's being less and less prevalent. The fact of the matter is, our French is largely useless, and the world is not driven by artifacts like that. People want efficiency, not old cultural relics
Since I don't know much on how things work in Quebec, I can see how one would be concerned if that's the case.
I support your efforts to keep the language alive, but unfortunately I don't know how the Anglophone encroachment can be stopped. Reminds me of Gaelic in Ireland, which seems to be a lost cause.
Also immigrant enclaves in Ontario with people that never bother to learn English will eventually become dominated by English starting as the generations roll on.
I live in quebec, in town neighboring St-Lambert, and both in the workplace and in every day life I speak french of english whenever I please and this kind of bs has never happened to me. There's an IGA in my home town (which I'd say is 40% english) and an obvious first job for many of my english speakng friends, and it wasn't a problem for them. They spoke what the client spoke and between them it didn't matter.
These kind of things happen to societies with evolving cultures. Montreal is a hub for multiethnicity but the farther you are from it the more you'll find the french equivalent of rednecks. Some people are resistant to change creating these isolated abuse of power in the workplace, and the media blows it out of proportions.
On June 28 2013 12:14 Slaughter wrote: The thing that seems crazy to me is to have official policies about restrictions on language spoken.
I mean, what if a customer comes in and can't speak french? Do they just keep speaking French until they leave?
Well it does say they can't speak English with one another.
I don't want to defend this, but my mother is a business owner here in Quebec and she speaks very little English. A few years ago, it made her uncomfortable when two of her employees (who were as comfortable in both languages) sometimes spoke English with one another when she was close, as if they didn't want her to understand. She eventually found out that they were complaining about her and even calling her names because she didn't understand the language unless it was spoken very articulately.
On June 28 2013 12:17 Slaughter wrote: Because in a place where both languages are spoken isn't a bit douchey to prohibit one when both are commonly spoken?
Why are they so concerned about pushing French in the first place?
About your second question, the whole rhetoric is about preserving the language, which doesn't sound important to many people but you might thing differently if you were put in a position where you can't get service in your own language.
It just seems funny to me. I have studied about situations where a language is dying and measures were taken to keep it alive and revive it as part of a cultural tradition. Those however were all in third world countries where colonization happened and native culture was suppressed so it seems amusing that a western language in a 1st world country is facing the same.
I'd like to know more about this, is there like a growing "English only" population that is trying to push out the traditional French?
There are a lot of people in Montreal who speak little to no French because it's possible to live here while only speaking English. However, there's no conscious desire to push the French out, not generally. However, Montreal being a (small) economic hub, the English population is growing there, faster than the French population.
So essentially the business is increasingly conducted in English and the place of French-speaking Quebecers is just declining naturally. We're still very much present in our suburbs but money is a big deal and so the suburbs are not quite as relevant as Montreal itself, obviously.
French is on the decline, basically, and I believe that it would be declining faster if French-speaking Quebecers weren't using their majority to artificially maintain it alive. But I think you can only do so much, and our language will continue to fade away because we're a small cell of a few millions surrounded by some 350 millions anglophones in the US and the rest of Canada.
It's inevitable and it's not really bad when you think about it, but people have an emotional attachment to their culture and the particularities of their nation.
If education, politics, media and all the hard and soft industries are required to operate in French, I don't know if you have much to worry about. The language may evolve to take on more English elements, but it won't be English replacing your language. It's going to be a French to be proud of and unique to the cultural history of Quebec.
Just my opinion.
Well I'm not too worried about it, but the thing it it's not just elements of English making their way into French, although that does happen, but the fact that some people just go on and live their life in English. I'm one of those people, and I'm not alone. Most of my work takes place in English. High end business takes place in English.
Francophone parents oftentimes would like to send their kids to school in English because they learn their French at home and they learn the tools to have a job in school, might as well.
I don't think French is going to die off anytime soon, far from it. But it's being less and less prevalent. The fact of the matter is, our French is largely useless, and the world is not driven by artifacts like that. People want efficiency, not old cultural relics
Since I don't know much on how things work in Quebec, I can see how one would be concerned if that's the case.
I support your efforts to keep the language alive, but unfortunately I don't know how the Anglophone encroachment can be stopped. Reminds me of Gaelic in Ireland, which seems to be a lost cause.
Also immigrant enclaves in Ontario with people that never bother to learn English will eventually become dominated by English starting as the generations roll on.
I don't think there's a solution wherein everybody wins.
As it is, the French majority is a bit oppressive to the anglophones in an effort to preserve the language.
On the other hand, multiculturalism is good, but it would obviously favor English... the clear advantages is that it would not be oppressive to anybody... but a lot of francophones would be very saddened by the fact that in the end, the British invaders won and we didn't protect our culture.
We're talking about the slow death of a culture versus the oppression of people... I'd say that oppression is much worse, but obviously it's not easy to think about these things rationally, especially not when the nationalism tends to be strong around here, it's passed down generations. Let's just say that I mellowed out. You can find posts of mine on TL where I express radically different views.
On June 28 2013 12:57 dabom88 wrote: Is this even constitutional? Seems like it'd be rather simple to bring up in court if it wasn't.
Nope it's perfectly legal, why you ask? because Quebec "never signed the constitution" as many people actually BRAG about.
We're still completely bound by it, get your facts straight. And the reason why some people brag (?) about the fact that we haven't signed the constitution is because it was essentially secretly put into law, essentially illegally, without Quebec's consent.
Also Gendron is a complete nutcase in more than one way.
Maybe he is a nutcase but that doesn't change the validity of his statements. There is an extreme insecurity of French speakers in Quebec, it is completely unjustified. Also a lot of the bitterness towards Quebec is not even about the language issue but more about the economic situation. Our politicians bend over and hand them the Vaseline and then we wonder why the Quebec government is never satisfied with what they have.
On June 28 2013 12:33 Xialos wrote: The level of ignorance in this thread is pretty high holybanana. Don't you guys realize that Quebec is the only place on the continent where people speak french (excluding some minor exceptions..)? Quebec is surrounded by an enormous amount of english speakers comparatively to it's french speaker population. If Quebec does not fight, french will disappear. Just look at Montreal, it's getting worst everyday. Remember that Quebec is not a country, so don't compare it to France or belgium.
then it disappears from the general populace? you'd rather waste resources by forcing people to speak and conduct themselves in a language that ceases to be relevant. what a joke.
if you want to preserve your heritage or whatever and learn french, no one's stopping you.
On June 28 2013 12:33 Xialos wrote: The level of ignorance in this thread is pretty high holybanana. Don't you guys realize that Quebec is the only place on the continent where people speak french (excluding some minor exceptions..)? Quebec is surrounded by an enormous amount of english speakers comparatively to it's french speaker population. If Quebec does not fight, french will disappear. Just look at Montreal, it's getting worst everyday. Remember that Quebec is not a country, so don't compare it to France or belgium.
then it disappears from the general populace? you'd rather waste resources by forcing people to speak and conduct themselves in a language that ceases to be relevant. what a joke.
if you want to preserve your heritage or whatever and learn french, no one's stopping you.
The problem is the people have a deep emotional connection with their "tool of communication". I understand I may not be the best person to talk to in order to best understand them because i'm what is usually referred to as an "individualist" but that's how it is.
On June 28 2013 13:21 Dawski wrote: Maybe he is a nutcase but that doesn't change the validity of his statements. There is an extreme insecurity of French speakers in Quebec, it is completely unjustified. Also a lot of the bitterness towards Quebec is not even about the language issue but more about the economic situation. Our politicians bend over and hand them the Vaseline and then we wonder why the Quebec government is never satisfied with what they have.
His statements are not valid. I know a fair bit about the history of Quebec and Canada because I need to for my job (which I won't get into). The guy tries to suggest that we weren't treated poorly by the anglophone majority which is completely bullshit. For roughly the last 50-60 years, the situation has been fair, but it's completely insane to suggest that everything should be fine and dandy now. The worst is behind us, but the tensions are still going on.
Gendron is a small times simpleton, he really is. And I'm not saying that because his views are opposed to mine. I rarely say this and mean it, but this man is literally unintelligent.
As for the economic thing, you have to understand that the government of Quebec is fighting for us. It's never advantageous to say thanks in politics... ask for more to make it difficult for them to take it back. It only makes sense.
On June 28 2013 13:24 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: So could you be arrested in Quebec if speaking English is illegal?
No, speaking English is not illegal. At worst, you can get fined if you refuse to have a French sign for a business instead of any other language, or such things. But you'd never get arrested unless you were loudly disturbing the peace in English
On June 28 2013 13:21 Dawski wrote: Maybe he is a nutcase but that doesn't change the validity of his statements. There is an extreme insecurity of French speakers in Quebec, it is completely unjustified. Also a lot of the bitterness towards Quebec is not even about the language issue but more about the economic situation. Our politicians bend over and hand them the Vaseline and then we wonder why the Quebec government is never satisfied with what they have.
His statements are not valid. I know a fair bit about the history of Quebec and Canada because I need to for my job (which I won't get into). The guy tries to suggest that we weren't treated poorly by the anglophone majority which is completely bullshit. For roughly the last 50-60 years, the situation has been fair, but it's completely insane to suggest that everything should be fine and dandy now. The worst is behind us, but the tensions are still going on.
Gendron is a small times simpleton, he really is. And I'm not saying that because his views are opposed to mine. I rarely say this and mean it, but this man is literally unintelligent.
As for the economic thing, you have to understand that the government of Quebec is fighting for us. It's never advantageous to say thanks in politics... ask for more to make it difficult for them to take it back. It only makes sense.
The whole point is that the tensions should not still be going on after 60 years of being treated "fair". I put it in quotations because this system has taken the same road of many others, overcompensation. Instead of seeing an oppression and wanting to make it fair, they see it and want things to tip into their favor now to make up for it. The reason why the tensions continue is because of this environment and media that these people grow up in which just continue the cycle.
On the economics thing you completely lost me. When do provincial leaders ever have to fight for their people with the federal? You can't work together with the federal and other provinces in order to secure financial stability to all provinces? There have been cases where Quebec businesses bragged they only do business within Quebec borders in order to strengthen Quebec. Quebec fights Canada to give it everything because it can, and then bites the hand that feeds.
On June 28 2013 13:21 Dawski wrote: Maybe he is a nutcase but that doesn't change the validity of his statements. There is an extreme insecurity of French speakers in Quebec, it is completely unjustified. Also a lot of the bitterness towards Quebec is not even about the language issue but more about the economic situation. Our politicians bend over and hand them the Vaseline and then we wonder why the Quebec government is never satisfied with what they have.
His statements are not valid. I know a fair bit about the history of Quebec and Canada because I need to for my job (which I won't get into). The guy tries to suggest that we weren't treated poorly by the anglophone majority which is completely bullshit. For roughly the last 50-60 years, the situation has been fair, but it's completely insane to suggest that everything should be fine and dandy now. The worst is behind us, but the tensions are still going on.
Gendron is a small times simpleton, he really is. And I'm not saying that because his views are opposed to mine. I rarely say this and mean it, but this man is literally unintelligent.
As for the economic thing, you have to understand that the government of Quebec is fighting for us. It's never advantageous to say thanks in politics... ask for more to make it difficult for them to take it back. It only makes sense.
On June 28 2013 13:24 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: So could you be arrested in Quebec if speaking English is illegal?
No, speaking English is not illegal. At worst, you can get fined if you refuse to have a French sign for a business instead of any other language, or such things. But you'd never get arrested unless you were loudly disturbing the peace in English
I'm a 23 year old non-Quebecer. Why is it that some of my tax dollars fuel a dispute that exists from hundreds of years ago that I've had no part of?
On June 28 2013 13:21 Dawski wrote: Maybe he is a nutcase but that doesn't change the validity of his statements. There is an extreme insecurity of French speakers in Quebec, it is completely unjustified. Also a lot of the bitterness towards Quebec is not even about the language issue but more about the economic situation. Our politicians bend over and hand them the Vaseline and then we wonder why the Quebec government is never satisfied with what they have.
His statements are not valid. I know a fair bit about the history of Quebec and Canada because I need to for my job (which I won't get into). The guy tries to suggest that we weren't treated poorly by the anglophone majority which is completely bullshit. For roughly the last 50-60 years, the situation has been fair, but it's completely insane to suggest that everything should be fine and dandy now. The worst is behind us, but the tensions are still going on.
Gendron is a small times simpleton, he really is. And I'm not saying that because his views are opposed to mine. I rarely say this and mean it, but this man is literally unintelligent.
As for the economic thing, you have to understand that the government of Quebec is fighting for us. It's never advantageous to say thanks in politics... ask for more to make it difficult for them to take it back. It only makes sense.
The whole point is that the tensions should not still be going on after 60 years of being treated "fair". I put it in quotations because this system has taken the same road of many others, overcompensation. Instead of seeing an oppression and wanting to make it fair, they see it and want things to tip into their favor now to make up for it. The reason why the tensions continue is because of this environment and media that these people grow up in which just continue the cycle.
I don't think anybody wants to be compensated, it's straight anger and bad blood, plus the current tensions which are just a domino effect.
On the economics thing you completely lost me. When do provincial leaders ever have to fight for their people with the federal? You can't work together with the federal and other provinces in order to secure financial stability to all provinces? There have been cases where Quebec businesses bragged they only do business within Quebec borders in order to strengthen Quebec. Quebec fights Canada to give it everything because it can, and then bites the hand that feeds.
There's a constant tug-o-war between provinces and the fed for certain things, especially in Canada since the federal taxes more than it needs to and then redistributes the money into the provinces. I think that it's people's negative view of Quebec which makes this view of yours so prevalent though... All the provinces are fighting for more transfers from the fed, but it's more annoying to hear about when it's those douchebags from the east.
On June 28 2013 13:21 Dawski wrote: Maybe he is a nutcase but that doesn't change the validity of his statements. There is an extreme insecurity of French speakers in Quebec, it is completely unjustified. Also a lot of the bitterness towards Quebec is not even about the language issue but more about the economic situation. Our politicians bend over and hand them the Vaseline and then we wonder why the Quebec government is never satisfied with what they have.
His statements are not valid. I know a fair bit about the history of Quebec and Canada because I need to for my job (which I won't get into). The guy tries to suggest that we weren't treated poorly by the anglophone majority which is completely bullshit. For roughly the last 50-60 years, the situation has been fair, but it's completely insane to suggest that everything should be fine and dandy now. The worst is behind us, but the tensions are still going on.
Gendron is a small times simpleton, he really is. And I'm not saying that because his views are opposed to mine. I rarely say this and mean it, but this man is literally unintelligent.
As for the economic thing, you have to understand that the government of Quebec is fighting for us. It's never advantageous to say thanks in politics... ask for more to make it difficult for them to take it back. It only makes sense.
On June 28 2013 13:24 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: So could you be arrested in Quebec if speaking English is illegal?
No, speaking English is not illegal. At worst, you can get fined if you refuse to have a French sign for a business instead of any other language, or such things. But you'd never get arrested unless you were loudly disturbing the peace in English
I'm a 23 year old non-Quebecer. Why is it that some of my tax dollars fuel a dispute that exists from hundreds of years ago that I've had no part of?
I'm a 23 year old Quebecer, why do mine? Well because we don't live in a vacuum and the actions or our ancestors make differences that have made it to the present.
On June 28 2013 13:49 zbedlam wrote: Now I know why most US people I talk to have a strong dislike for french canadians.
Guess they are mad their language becoming obsolete, can't say I blame them.
I think it's strange because when you dislike a classification of people, it generally makes you a douchebag... but for some reason the hatred of french Canadians is acceptable.
So you think that Quebec should be able to treat the feds the way they do because "in your completely non-fact opinion" the other provinces do the same? You realize that's completely untrue right? Equalization comes from the federal revenue. Provincial governments can't fight for more equalization. The problem people have with Quebec and equalization is the way the Quebec government spends it. The problem in my opinion is the payments don't come with any strings attached which means big governments get used to receiving them. It's like using a cheque which should be used to get your family out of debt and spend it on video games.
You're just encouraging and continuing the exact same "insecure" attitude as I was just talking about.
The man you just quoted didn't even say anything discriminatory about French Canadians... He just said he understands the feelings on both sides...holy crap man this insecurity is NOT healthy (3rd edit): Besides, you just said you completely understood the feelings of dislike on both sides because of something to do with your job...sounds to me like you don't completely...
Very stupid/silly. Understandable on the floor (though not really; if a customer wants to speak English to you and they're bilingual then they should be able to), but pretty idiotic that you're withheld from speaking English on break to co-workers and such.
On June 28 2013 13:56 Dawski wrote: So you think that Quebec should be able to treat the feds the way they do because "in your completely non-fact opinion" the other provinces do the same? You realize that's completely untrue right? Equalization comes from the federal revenue. Provincial governments can't fight for more equalization. The problem people have with Quebec and equalization is the way the Quebec government spends it. The problem in my opinion is the payments don't come with any strings attached which means big governments get used to receiving them. It's like using a cheque which should be used to get your family out of debt and spend it on video games.
You're just encouraging and continuing the exact same "insecure" attitude as I was just talking about.
Provincial governments talk to the federal government and can try to get more equalization payments, that's how politics work. But the transfer of funds are by no means limited to equalization payments. As for how Quebec "treats" the feds, who the hell cares, it's a government....
As for people being angry about how Quebec uses its checks. That's pretty much the pettiest bullshit ever. The right-leaning rest of the country doesn't like the left-leaning big bad Quebec... go figures. As for saying the "check" is spent on videogames, that's quite ridiculous. Large parts go toward education and health, both of which are durable development.
But despite your denial of it, there are plenty of disputes between provincial and federal governments, and more rural provinces tend to want more equalization payments and other such resources.
On June 28 2013 13:56 Dawski wrote: So you think that Quebec should be able to treat the feds the way they do because "in your completely non-fact opinion" the other provinces do the same? You realize that's completely untrue right? Equalization comes from the federal revenue. Provincial governments can't fight for more equalization. The problem people have with Quebec and equalization is the way the Quebec government spends it. The problem in my opinion is the payments don't come with any strings attached which means big governments get used to receiving them. It's like using a cheque which should be used to get your family out of debt and spend it on video games.
You're just encouraging and continuing the exact same "insecure" attitude as I was just talking about.
Provincial governments talk to the federal government and can try to get more equalization payments, that's how politics work. But the transfer of funds are by no means limited to equalization payments. As for how Quebec "treats" the feds, who the hell cares, it's a government....
As for people being angry about how Quebec uses its checks. That's pretty much the pettiest bullshit ever. The right-leaning rest of the country doesn't like the left-leaning big bad Quebec... go figures.
But despite your denial of it, there are plenty of disputes between provincial and federal governments, and more rural provinces tend to want more equalization payments and other such resources.
I love how you still haven't figured out why the rest of Canada doesn't like the fiscal situation of Quebec. You realize the way you treat the feds directly impacts where the money we pay towards the government goes. If our money is going somewhere and we see it being spent on bureaucracies to uphold language laws, people are going to have a problem with that, and they should. Especially when this place is constantly asking for more and yet doesn't fix it's money draining big government in the first place.
Also Canada is right leaning? You may have a case to make in Alberta some parts of BC excluding Victoria/Vancouver (pretty much the whole population of BC). But other than that Canada is a fairly left of center country. If you think that's the reason people dislike Quebec you're delusional.
I really hope that "undisclosed job" of yours doesn't have anything to do with this subject
On June 28 2013 13:56 Dawski wrote: So you think that Quebec should be able to treat the feds the way they do because "in your completely non-fact opinion" the other provinces do the same? You realize that's completely untrue right? Equalization comes from the federal revenue. Provincial governments can't fight for more equalization. The problem people have with Quebec and equalization is the way the Quebec government spends it. The problem in my opinion is the payments don't come with any strings attached which means big governments get used to receiving them. It's like using a cheque which should be used to get your family out of debt and spend it on video games.
You're just encouraging and continuing the exact same "insecure" attitude as I was just talking about.
Provincial governments talk to the federal government and can try to get more equalization payments, that's how politics work. But the transfer of funds are by no means limited to equalization payments. As for how Quebec "treats" the feds, who the hell cares, it's a government....
As for people being angry about how Quebec uses its checks. That's pretty much the pettiest bullshit ever. The right-leaning rest of the country doesn't like the left-leaning big bad Quebec... go figures.
But despite your denial of it, there are plenty of disputes between provincial and federal governments, and more rural provinces tend to want more equalization payments and other such resources.
I love how you still haven't figured out why the rest of Canada doesn't like the fiscal situation of Quebec. You realize the way you treat the feds directly impacts where the money we pay towards the government goes. If our money is going somewhere and we see it being spent on bureaucracies to uphold language laws, people are going to have a problem with that, and they should. Especially when this place is constantly asking for more and yet doesn't fix it's money draining big government in the first place.
Also Canada is right leaning? You may have a case to make in Alberta some parts of BC excluding Victoria/Vancouver (pretty much the whole population of BC). But other than that Canada is a fairly left of center country. If you think that's the reason people dislike Quebec you're delusional.
I really hope that "undisclosed job" of yours doesn't have anything to do with this subject
You'll be disappointed to hear that I'm a poli sci masters student at McGill (a name which you hopefully recognize) and I even am a course lecturer at a different QC university for 2 groups of 30 students. [Edit: not during the summer semester, only during the two main ones]
You seem to imply that I don't understand things which I completely understand but I disagree with. I do understand why Canada doesn't like the fiscal situation of Quebec, but I also think it's arrogant and shows a complete misunderstanding of how shit works. Arguing that the money goes toward language issues is quite dumb in the first place anyway - Quebec's taxes are quite high, and it amply covers those inefficiencies (at the cost of other useful things that we could do). Obviously, I don't disagree that our public administration could get axed pretty hard.
As for Canada being "right leaning", I was clearly talking about it relatively to Quebec. Yes, Canada is left leaning. I'm a bit disappointed that you couldn't figure out what I was saying.
On June 28 2013 14:14 Chrispy wrote: Quebec... secede already please.
Are you pissed off in general or did that grocery store manager really make you hate the province that badly?
On June 28 2013 13:56 Dawski wrote: So you think that Quebec should be able to treat the feds the way they do because "in your completely non-fact opinion" the other provinces do the same? You realize that's completely untrue right? Equalization comes from the federal revenue. Provincial governments can't fight for more equalization. The problem people have with Quebec and equalization is the way the Quebec government spends it. The problem in my opinion is the payments don't come with any strings attached which means big governments get used to receiving them. It's like using a cheque which should be used to get your family out of debt and spend it on video games.
You're just encouraging and continuing the exact same "insecure" attitude as I was just talking about.
Provincial governments talk to the federal government and can try to get more equalization payments, that's how politics work. But the transfer of funds are by no means limited to equalization payments. As for how Quebec "treats" the feds, who the hell cares, it's a government....
As for people being angry about how Quebec uses its checks. That's pretty much the pettiest bullshit ever. The right-leaning rest of the country doesn't like the left-leaning big bad Quebec... go figures.
But despite your denial of it, there are plenty of disputes between provincial and federal governments, and more rural provinces tend to want more equalization payments and other such resources.
I love how you still haven't figured out why the rest of Canada doesn't like the fiscal situation of Quebec. You realize the way you treat the feds directly impacts where the money we pay towards the government goes. If our money is going somewhere and we see it being spent on bureaucracies to uphold language laws, people are going to have a problem with that, and they should. Especially when this place is constantly asking for more and yet doesn't fix it's money draining big government in the first place.
Also Canada is right leaning? You may have a case to make in Alberta some parts of BC excluding Victoria/Vancouver (pretty much the whole population of BC). But other than that Canada is a fairly left of center country. If you think that's the reason people dislike Quebec you're delusional.
I really hope that "undisclosed job" of yours doesn't have anything to do with this subject
You'll be disappointed to hear that I'm a poli sci masters student at McGill (a name which you hopefully recognize) and I even am a class lecturer at a different QC university for 2 groups of 30 students. [Edit: not during the summer semester, only during the two main ones]
You seem to imply that I don't understand things which I completely understand but I disagree with. I do understand why Canada doesn't like the fiscal situation of Quebec, but I also think it's arrogant and shows a complete misunderstanding of how shit works. Arguing that the money goes toward language issues is quite dumb in the first place anyway - Quebec's taxes are quite high, and it amply covers those inefficiencies (at the cost of other useful things that we could do). Obviously, I don't disagree that our public administration could get axed pretty hard.
As for Canada being "right leaning", I was clearly talking about it relatively to Quebec. Yes, Canada is left leaning. I'm a bit disappointed that you couldn't figure out what I was saying.
On June 28 2013 14:14 Chrispy wrote: Quebec... secede already please.
Are you pissed off in general or did that grocery store manager really make you hate the province that badly?
I'm really not terribly disappointed by that because it's exactly what I thought you were. Someone who's spent way too long in an education system.
Shit works in a shitty way, people dislike said shitty system, they complain, they're arrogant? Sometimes the most complex circumstances in life can be solved by the simplest of solutions. You've just got to take a step back and come back to reality.
On June 28 2013 13:56 Dawski wrote: So you think that Quebec should be able to treat the feds the way they do because "in your completely non-fact opinion" the other provinces do the same? You realize that's completely untrue right? Equalization comes from the federal revenue. Provincial governments can't fight for more equalization. The problem people have with Quebec and equalization is the way the Quebec government spends it. The problem in my opinion is the payments don't come with any strings attached which means big governments get used to receiving them. It's like using a cheque which should be used to get your family out of debt and spend it on video games.
You're just encouraging and continuing the exact same "insecure" attitude as I was just talking about.
Provincial governments talk to the federal government and can try to get more equalization payments, that's how politics work. But the transfer of funds are by no means limited to equalization payments. As for how Quebec "treats" the feds, who the hell cares, it's a government....
As for people being angry about how Quebec uses its checks. That's pretty much the pettiest bullshit ever. The right-leaning rest of the country doesn't like the left-leaning big bad Quebec... go figures.
But despite your denial of it, there are plenty of disputes between provincial and federal governments, and more rural provinces tend to want more equalization payments and other such resources.
I love how you still haven't figured out why the rest of Canada doesn't like the fiscal situation of Quebec. You realize the way you treat the feds directly impacts where the money we pay towards the government goes. If our money is going somewhere and we see it being spent on bureaucracies to uphold language laws, people are going to have a problem with that, and they should. Especially when this place is constantly asking for more and yet doesn't fix it's money draining big government in the first place.
Also Canada is right leaning? You may have a case to make in Alberta some parts of BC excluding Victoria/Vancouver (pretty much the whole population of BC). But other than that Canada is a fairly left of center country. If you think that's the reason people dislike Quebec you're delusional.
I really hope that "undisclosed job" of yours doesn't have anything to do with this subject
You'll be disappointed to hear that I'm a poli sci masters student at McGill (a name which you hopefully recognize) and I even am a class lecturer at a different QC university for 2 groups of 30 students. [Edit: not during the summer semester, only during the two main ones]
You seem to imply that I don't understand things which I completely understand but I disagree with. I do understand why Canada doesn't like the fiscal situation of Quebec, but I also think it's arrogant and shows a complete misunderstanding of how shit works. Arguing that the money goes toward language issues is quite dumb in the first place anyway - Quebec's taxes are quite high, and it amply covers those inefficiencies (at the cost of other useful things that we could do). Obviously, I don't disagree that our public administration could get axed pretty hard.
As for Canada being "right leaning", I was clearly talking about it relatively to Quebec. Yes, Canada is left leaning. I'm a bit disappointed that you couldn't figure out what I was saying.
On June 28 2013 14:14 Chrispy wrote: Quebec... secede already please.
Are you pissed off in general or did that grocery store manager really make you hate the province that badly?
I'm really not terribly disappointed by that because it's exactly what I thought you were. Someone who's spent way too long in an education system.
Shit works in a shitty way, people dislike said shitty system, they complain, they're arrogant? Sometimes the most complex circumstances in life can be solved by the simplest of solutions. You've just got to take a step back and come back to reality.
Over reacting bandwagoners gonna over react, surprised that mods are jumping on the bandwagon too like complete idiots.
"Menard did emphasize that speaking only French in her establishments is not required, rather it's requested."
Employee didn't like what he/she was told by employer, employer has misguided principles or misunderstandings or purposeful distortion of law in Quebec, employee thus left organization and looks for a different job with out any disruption from the employer. So why is this a huge human rights issue again? I wasn't aware IGA was a political organization, nor that IGA held a monopoly of work for such employees in the area.
What's next? Human rights violations filed in ESL class for forcing Indian children to only speak in English? Human rights violations filed in homes for parents forcing their children to only speak their mother's language? Give me a break. Shit happens every day across continents.
Reminds me of an article I read a while back about how immigrants, entrepreneurs and highly educated people are likely to leave Quebec because of the language restrictions that are being imposed. Most of them end up moving west or to Ontario.
By last year, more than 62,000 newcomers who arrived between 2000 and 2009 had gone. Among entrepreneurs and other business people, the attrition rate was almost 60 per cent.
English is the language of commerce, and knowledge, and well, most of the (developed) world. It's not a surprise that all the best universities and polytechniques are in Montreal or around it. I probably will go back to Toronto myself to start my business. Montreal is a great and (cheap) city but you probably have to look towards other provinces if you're serious about developing a professional career (Especially as an english speaker).
pfft that's a silly rule, they don't even speak real french in quebec
honestly though, I am only getting one side of this from the employee, but it sounds so oppressively uncomfortable as a place to work. maybe its not so bad, people are prone to exaggerate, but if they are actively punishing people for speaking english, they live sad, sad sheltered lives.
On June 28 2013 10:51 Uncultured wrote: They are your employer. They pay you do do whatever the fuck they like. You do it, or you don't get paid. That's how I feel about this.
While i understand this statement to some extent it is a bit.. how to say.. it makes you come off as an asshole?
On topic: Personally i do find it silly that they are allowed to be such nazis about it but.. i do also understand where they are coming from as it is an integral part of their culture just like for me coming from a welsh backround i did enjoy going to wales and seeing the language still alive and kicking (if only ~1 million people speak the language)
Can someone explain to me why the fuck they do have language restrictions? That sounds more than ridicolous, even more if you think that it is the same nation. lololol Everyday you learn something new. Why dont the french guys learn english? Pretty simple, and if you look into the future they have to do it anyways.
From my ignorant point of view, the french people should stop imposing language restrcitions so people will adpot faster to english and then get rid of the french language here. After all it is one nation....
On June 28 2013 15:06 Sokrates wrote: Can someone explain to me why the fuck they do have language restrictions? That sounds more than ridicolous, even more if you think that it is the same nation. lololol Everyday you learn something new. Why dont the french guys learn english? Pretty simple, and if you look into the future they have to do it anyways.
From my ignorant point of view, the french people should stop imposing language restrcitions so people will adpot faster to english and then get rid of the french language here. After all it is one nation....
There are a few hundred years of history you need to catch up with. Until you do, I would hold off on the advice.
On June 28 2013 15:06 Sokrates wrote: Can someone explain to me why the fuck they do have language restrictions? That sounds more than ridicolous, even more if you think that it is the same nation. lololol Everyday you learn something new. Why dont the french guys learn english? Pretty simple, and if you look into the future they have to do it anyways.
From my ignorant point of view, the french people should stop imposing language restrcitions so people will adpot faster to english and then get rid of the french language here. After all it is one nation....
Probably because French IS an official language? I think its silly to have these types of restrictions on one of the 2 official languages of the country but its stupid to say "get rid of French". Its a part of their culture so of course they would want to keep it.
The only French parts of Quebec culture that I have ever noted are the language and the attitude about the language.
C'mon, the French only owned the area for 150 years, and it's been British since. Odds are the majority of residents are as much French as I am a Native American. (And I have a great grandfather that was a tribal chief.)
Really, I enjoy Ontario and westward. Quebec... meh. Haven't been to Newfoundland, although that was the entry point of both European parts of my family.
EPT
