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On June 28 2013 11:59 codonbyte wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 11:54 KlaCkoN wrote:
Um I might be misunderstanding things but this seems perfectly natural to me?
I'm a phd student in the US and groups lead by Chinese PIs with mostly Chinese students are still expected to work in English for the benefit of the non Chinese people in the group, as they damn well should.
If French is the official language in Montreal expecting people to work in French makes a lot of sense. Please read the OP. The employees are expected to speak French even on their lunch breaks. Last I checked, employees aren't working when they're eating lunch (at the place where I work, employees clock out when they go to lunch, so it would be illegal for a manager to require them to do any duties of employment).
But, why? They're still in the break room, on their employer's property.
edit: Let me phrase that a little better. They're still in the break room, "...at the work place."
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Because in a place where both languages are spoken isn't a bit douchey to prohibit one when both are commonly spoken?
Why are they so concerned about pushing French in the first place?
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On June 28 2013 12:14 Slaughter wrote:
The thing that seems crazy to me is to have official policies about restrictions on language spoken.
I mean, what if a customer comes in and can't speak french? Do they just keep speaking French until they leave?
Well it does say they can't speak English with one another.
I don't want to defend this, but my mother is a business owner here in Quebec and she speaks very little English. A few years ago, it made her uncomfortable when two of her employees (who were as comfortable in both languages) sometimes spoke English with one another when she was close, as if they didn't want her to understand. She eventually found out that they were complaining about her and even calling her names because she didn't understand the language unless it was spoken very articulately.
On June 28 2013 12:17 Slaughter wrote:
Because in a place where both languages are spoken isn't a bit douchey to prohibit one when both are commonly spoken?
Why are they so concerned about pushing French in the first place?
About your second question, the whole rhetoric is about preserving the language, which doesn't sound important to many people but you might thing differently if you were put in a position where you can't get service in your own language in Canada.
That said, I won't deny that some laws are excessively prohibitive. This one rule was for one grocery store though, and it's all kinds of wrong.
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On June 28 2013 12:15 danl9rm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 11:59 codonbyte wrote:On June 28 2013 11:54 KlaCkoN wrote:
Um I might be misunderstanding things but this seems perfectly natural to me?
I'm a phd student in the US and groups lead by Chinese PIs with mostly Chinese students are still expected to work in English for the benefit of the non Chinese people in the group, as they damn well should.
If French is the official language in Montreal expecting people to work in French makes a lot of sense. Please read the OP. The employees are expected to speak French even on their lunch breaks. Last I checked, employees aren't working when they're eating lunch (at the place where I work, employees clock out when they go to lunch, so it would be illegal for a manager to require them to do any duties of employment). But, why? They're still in the break room, on their employer's property. edit: Let me phrase that a little better. They're still in the break room, "...at the work place."
Sure, it is the employer's property and they are free to do as they please. However, they will be judged based on what they do. And I'm judging that manager to be an uptight control freak.
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On June 28 2013 11:08 RedMorning wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 10:51 Uncultured wrote:
They are your employer. They pay you do do whatever the fuck they like. You do it, or you don't get paid. That's how I feel about this. Seriously? Really should think this one through... Why is everyone jumping on this guy? I think he's on the money. Liberals love to talk about "rights", but is there a more basic right than the freedom to choose your own actions? If I refuse to hire someone who doesn't speak Swahili, I haven't stopped him from doing anything. He's free to speak Swahili, and I'm free not to hire him. If you force me to hire him, then you're not protecting his freedom to speak whatever language he chooses. You're infringing mine to hire whatever person I choose. Why is that a lesser freedom?
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On June 28 2013 12:18 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 12:14 Slaughter wrote:
The thing that seems crazy to me is to have official policies about restrictions on language spoken.
I mean, what if a customer comes in and can't speak french? Do they just keep speaking French until they leave? Well it does say they can't speak English with one another. I don't want to defend this, but my mother is a business owner here in Quebec and she speaks very little English. A few years ago, it made her uncomfortable when two of her employees (who were as comfortable in both languages) sometimes spoke English with one another when she was close, as if they didn't want her to understand. She eventually found out that they were complaining about her and even calling her names because she didn't understand the language unless it was spoken very articulately. Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 12:17 Slaughter wrote:
Because in a place where both languages are spoken isn't a bit douchey to prohibit one when both are commonly spoken?
Why are they so concerned about pushing French in the first place? About your second question, the whole rhetoric is about preserving the language, which doesn't sound important to many people but you might thing differently if you were put in a position where you can't get service in your own language.
It just seems funny to me. I have studied about situations where a language is dying and measures were taken to keep it alive and revive it as part of a cultural tradition. Those however were all in third world countries where colonization happened and native culture was suppressed so it seems amusing that a western language in a 1st world country is facing the same.
I'd like to know more about this, is there like a growing "English only" population that is trying to push out the traditional French?
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On June 28 2013 12:18 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 12:14 Slaughter wrote:
The thing that seems crazy to me is to have official policies about restrictions on language spoken.
I mean, what if a customer comes in and can't speak french? Do they just keep speaking French until they leave? Well it does say they can't speak English with one another. I don't want to defend this, but my mother is a business owner here in Quebec and she speaks very little English. A few years ago, it made her uncomfortable when two of her employees (who were as comfortable in both languages) sometimes spoke English with one another when she was close, as if they didn't want her to understand. She eventually found out that they were complaining about her and even calling her names because she didn't understand the language unless it was spoken very articulately.
No need to police the language in order to remedy this issue, though. That's a straight up workplace harassment issue. I can talk shit about my colleagues behind their back without resorting to a different language to do so.
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On June 28 2013 12:14 Slaughter wrote:
The thing that seems crazy to me is to have official policies about restrictions on language spoken.
I mean, what if a customer comes in and can't speak french? Do they just keep speaking French until they leave?
lol that's what I would do if the company had a ridiculous policy. The store I work at has a policy that the cashier must do the following with every transaction:
1) Ask the customer if they found everything they were looking for.
2) Ask the customer if they'd like to donate a dollar to some random charity.
3) Ask the customer if they'd like to join the email coupon club.
4) Tell the customer about the bounce-back coupon that gets issued with every transaction.
Now I've never gotten scolded for using my common sense about when to omit those steps (i.e. customer is talking on the phone, customer is in the middle of a conversation with a friend who's shopping with them). However, if I did, I'd start being an annoying jackass about always following that protocol to the letter and we'd see how business turned out when every customer got a bunch of verbage spewed at them, regardless of whether they were in the mood to hear it.
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The level of ignorance in this thread is pretty high holybanana. Don't you guys realize that Quebec is the only place on the continent where people speak french (excluding some minor exceptions..)? Quebec is surrounded by an enormous amount of english speakers comparatively to it's french speaker population. If Quebec does not fight, french will disappear. Just look at Montreal, it's getting worst everyday. Remember that Quebec is not a country, so don't compare it to France or belgium.
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On June 28 2013 12:27 Slaughter wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 12:18 Djzapz wrote:On June 28 2013 12:14 Slaughter wrote:
The thing that seems crazy to me is to have official policies about restrictions on language spoken.
I mean, what if a customer comes in and can't speak french? Do they just keep speaking French until they leave? Well it does say they can't speak English with one another. I don't want to defend this, but my mother is a business owner here in Quebec and she speaks very little English. A few years ago, it made her uncomfortable when two of her employees (who were as comfortable in both languages) sometimes spoke English with one another when she was close, as if they didn't want her to understand. She eventually found out that they were complaining about her and even calling her names because she didn't understand the language unless it was spoken very articulately. On June 28 2013 12:17 Slaughter wrote:
Because in a place where both languages are spoken isn't a bit douchey to prohibit one when both are commonly spoken?
Why are they so concerned about pushing French in the first place? About your second question, the whole rhetoric is about preserving the language, which doesn't sound important to many people but you might thing differently if you were put in a position where you can't get service in your own language. It just seems funny to me. I have studied about situations where a language is dying and measures were taken to keep it alive and revive it as part of a cultural tradition. Those however were all in third world countries where colonization happened and native culture was suppressed so it seems amusing that a western language in a 1st world country is facing the same. I'd like to know more about this, is there like a growing "English only" population that is trying to push out the traditional French?
There are a lot of people in Montreal who speak little to no French because it's possible to live here while only speaking English. However, there's no conscious desire to push the French out, not generally. However, Montreal being a (small) economic hub, the English population is growing there, faster than the French population.
So essentially the business is increasingly conducted in English and the place of French-speaking Quebecers is just declining naturally. We're still very much present in our suburbs but money is a big deal and so the suburbs are not quite as relevant as Montreal itself, obviously.
French is on the decline, basically, and I believe that it would be declining faster if French-speaking Quebecers weren't using their majority to artificially maintain it alive. But I think you can only do so much, and our language will continue to fade away because we're a small cell of a few millions surrounded by some 350 millions anglophones in the US and the rest of Canada.
It's inevitable and it's not really bad when you think about it, but people have an emotional attachment to their culture and the particularities of their nation.
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On June 28 2013 12:26 qrs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 11:08 RedMorning wrote:On June 28 2013 10:51 Uncultured wrote:
They are your employer. They pay you do do whatever the fuck they like. You do it, or you don't get paid. That's how I feel about this. Seriously? Really should think this one through... Why is everyone jumping on this guy? I think he's on the money. Liberals love to talk about "rights", but is there a more basic right than the freedom to choose your own actions? If I refuse to hire someone who doesn't speak Swahili, I haven't stopped him from doing anything. He's free to speak Swahili, and I'm free not to hire him. If you force me to hire him, then you're not protecting his freedom to speak whatever language he chooses. You're infringing mine to hire whatever person I choose. Why is that a lesser freedom?
These workers have the freedom to speak English on their break without interference by their employer. The employer has the freedom to fire them for breaking her policy of No English on the work site. They have the freedom to sue for wrongful dismissal. It's a pretty free society.
Freedom is also curtailed to a degree to benefit society over the individual's right to act like a fucking barbarian. For example, you're not free to deny employment based on the colour of one's skin.
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Osaka27173 Posts
On June 28 2013 10:51 Uncultured wrote:
They are your employer. They pay you do do whatever the fuck they like. You do it, or you don't get paid. That's how I feel about this.
lol
Boss: "after you finish stocking these shelves, suck milk out of my asshole."
Uncultured: "YES BOSS!"
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this is why Quebec gets shit on by people in other provinces constantly. there are 2 official languages in canada, you can speak either english, or french, or both.
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On June 28 2013 12:35 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 10:51 Uncultured wrote:
They are your employer. They pay you do do whatever the fuck they like. You do it, or you don't get paid. That's how I feel about this. lol Boss: "after you finish stocking these shelves, suck milk out of my asshole." Uncultured: "YES BOSS!"
Well the devil's advocate would say leave and find a job where you don't have to suck milk out of your boss's asshole. Admittedly it may not pay as well.
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Osaka27173 Posts
Obviously.
Who the fuck shops at IGA besides your grandma anyway.
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Canada9720 Posts
On June 28 2013 12:33 Xialos wrote:
The level of ignorance in this thread is pretty high holybanana. Don't you guys realize that Quebec is the only place on the continent where people speak french (excluding some minor exceptions..)? Quebec is surrounded by an enormous amount of english speakers comparatively to it's french speaker population. If Quebec does not fight, french will disappear. Just look at Montreal, it's getting worst everyday. Remember that Quebec is not a country, so don't compare it to France or belgium.
New Brunswick has plenty of Francophone speakers, and they don't prohibit the use of either French or English.
There is no defense for prohibiting the use of a language, aside from arenas like a school room, for educational purposes.
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On June 28 2013 12:38 Manifesto7 wrote:
Obviously.
Who the fuck shops at IGA besides your grandma anyway.
I'd shop at IGA if there wasn't a Metro so close. They have my bags of milk eh.
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On June 28 2013 12:35 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 12:27 Slaughter wrote:On June 28 2013 12:18 Djzapz wrote:On June 28 2013 12:14 Slaughter wrote:
The thing that seems crazy to me is to have official policies about restrictions on language spoken.
I mean, what if a customer comes in and can't speak french? Do they just keep speaking French until they leave? Well it does say they can't speak English with one another. I don't want to defend this, but my mother is a business owner here in Quebec and she speaks very little English. A few years ago, it made her uncomfortable when two of her employees (who were as comfortable in both languages) sometimes spoke English with one another when she was close, as if they didn't want her to understand. She eventually found out that they were complaining about her and even calling her names because she didn't understand the language unless it was spoken very articulately. On June 28 2013 12:17 Slaughter wrote:
Because in a place where both languages are spoken isn't a bit douchey to prohibit one when both are commonly spoken?
Why are they so concerned about pushing French in the first place? About your second question, the whole rhetoric is about preserving the language, which doesn't sound important to many people but you might thing differently if you were put in a position where you can't get service in your own language. It just seems funny to me. I have studied about situations where a language is dying and measures were taken to keep it alive and revive it as part of a cultural tradition. Those however were all in third world countries where colonization happened and native culture was suppressed so it seems amusing that a western language in a 1st world country is facing the same. I'd like to know more about this, is there like a growing "English only" population that is trying to push out the traditional French? There are a lot of people in Montreal who speak little to no French because it's possible to live here while only speaking English. However, there's no conscious desire to push the French out, not generally. However, Montreal being a (small) economic hub, the English population is growing there, faster than the French population. So essentially the business is increasingly conducted in English and the place of French-speaking Quebecers is just declining naturally. We're still very much present in our suburbs but money is a big deal. French is on the decline, basically, and I believe that it would be declining faster if French-speaking Quebecers weren't using their majority to artificially maintain it alive. But I think you can only do so much, and our language will continue to fade away because we're a small cell of a few millions surrounded by some 350 millions anglophones in the US and the rest of Canada. It's inevitable and it's not really bad when you think about it, but people have an emotional attachment to their culture and the particularities of their nation.
Thanks for the summary. Its interesting, I knew that French was still prominently spoken in Quebec but I wasn't aware that it was as big an issue as it appears to be. I always figured the vast majority of people there were just bilingual and didn't really care that much either way.
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On June 28 2013 12:38 Manifesto7 wrote:
Obviously.
Who the fuck shops at IGA besides your grandma anyway.
Grandpa? -.^
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Canada9720 Posts
Forcing people to speak (or not speak) a given language is insane. Montreal is very politically and socially different than anywhere else in quebec. Even if every person in Montreal stopped speaking French, it wouldn't affect the rest of the province.
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EPT
