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On December 03 2013 17:22 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 16:57 sam!zdat wrote:On December 03 2013 16:43 obesechicken13 wrote:On December 03 2013 16:09 magicmUnky wrote:Some guy was saying that there are heaps of fees... Yeah there are exhange fees but why do you care? You can send as much money to anyone as you want with bitcoin and see no fees... try to do that with your credit card. Name another zero-fee digital currency transfer?  Paypal takes a cut, visa/mastercard take a cut... everyone takes a cut! And you pay monthly fees for bank accounts in general. That's what the no fees thing is and frankly, it sounds fantastic. The problem at the moment is the instability of the currency. That fact that the price keeps appreciating makes me wary of using it... I'm better off holding on to the coins than I am using them... Someone was talking about how an advantage of bitcoins was that they had no fees. This obviously isn't true. because they are exchanging into it, making a transaction, and exchanging out of it Just be aware that you aren't "removing the useless middlemen" like many people who hate banks want to do when they use bitcoins.
No, but you are creating a pressure on them to do what they are actually suppose to do.
You are putting real pressure on every middle man that take it's cut from money transfer.
Hell, Western Union has there whole infrastructure costing millions just to do what bitcoin could do for them.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
On December 03 2013 07:43 MaestroSC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 06:49 FiWiFaKi wrote:On December 03 2013 04:55 Chrono000 wrote:On December 03 2013 04:42 FiWiFaKi wrote:On December 03 2013 04:33 Chrono000 wrote:On December 03 2013 04:24 MaestroSC wrote:
This might just be pointing out the obvious... but Fiwifaki, does this mean you are not interested in the future or Bitcoins? Or do not believe they will be worth more eventually? Because you said you cashed out for your 3/4 of a million.
I mean if you believed in it, you would obviously re-invest at least some of it right?
Just looking for your .02 really regarding the future of it. ? 3/4 million so he had bitcoins and now is arguing the negatives on bitcoin? anyway id like more bitcoin merchents around everywhere, no more fees!!!! no more waste! You have to be kidding me, Chrono. If you're going to make an investment, you have to look at the positives and negatives. You can't just be like "Oh bitcoins so great, buy them all", you have to look at it from every angle. There are positives, and there are negatives, and there isn't a definite answer whether they will work or not. And I had bitcoins from the get-go, I didn't exactly invest money in them, so I didn't really have a choice besides wait until the price is right. o well just saying u should probably do a bit more research. i certainly wouldnt cash out that much. just enough to get by. its pretty freaking hard to get whole bitcoins now. by the way ive been looking it bitcoin from many angles for awhile now and well ill continue to look at it from all angles. just right now people are arguing the same old points that have been debunked already. if its not bitcoin its just gona be another one just like it. what does not work is the current money we use now and the banking system and its getting more and more clearer day by day. Just because our current system is not perfect doesn't mean this new system would be better. Right now most people still look at BTC not because it has potential to be a currency, but because they heard that people were getting rich off of it. Just like how this thread explodes when the price goes up - but nobody comments when the price is constant (which is what the currency needs). imo what it needs more than anything is an implemented system of dividing bitcoins into smaller units... A lot of people are now using millibits, but we need something that every1 can work in/deal with... Because saying "You need 1000 for 1 bitcoin" a 90% of the population goes "wtf i dont have 1000 for only one" and they assume that bitcoins are like pennys and cannot be split. Which is not the case at all. Exchanges need to start trading formally in smaller units so that newcomers arent so afraid/hesitant. A lot of newcomers dont understand that you can spend 1/1000th of a coin. also idk how i feel about true stability... the potential of being an investment is the draw for some users... Imagine having a checking account where you can buy any/everything you want out of it.. while still investing. Imagine if you could throw $50,000 in the stock market while still being able to buy stuff with your money currently in the market. IDK tho cause i know the stock market also = risk, similar to bitcoins. But if bitcoins were somewhat stable, this reality wouldnt be too far-fetched i guess.
Yes this is what is hard to explain to joe blogs when you say, 1 bitcoin is worth $1000 at the moment. They just go err wtf? How is 1coin worth so much. Then you say well it costs like 0.00039 to subscribe to TL+. Then you just completely lose them with values like that.
They need to re generalize the way the currency looks to joe blogs imo.
I mean say this is the future and in 25years time we have global currency which is Bitcoin....you go to McDonalds and your paying like 0.00045 for a BigMac meal, just doesns't look right. xD
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On December 03 2013 18:06 Pandemona wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 07:43 MaestroSC wrote:On December 03 2013 06:49 FiWiFaKi wrote:On December 03 2013 04:55 Chrono000 wrote:On December 03 2013 04:42 FiWiFaKi wrote:On December 03 2013 04:33 Chrono000 wrote:On December 03 2013 04:24 MaestroSC wrote:
This might just be pointing out the obvious... but Fiwifaki, does this mean you are not interested in the future or Bitcoins? Or do not believe they will be worth more eventually? Because you said you cashed out for your 3/4 of a million.
I mean if you believed in it, you would obviously re-invest at least some of it right?
Just looking for your .02 really regarding the future of it. ? 3/4 million so he had bitcoins and now is arguing the negatives on bitcoin? anyway id like more bitcoin merchents around everywhere, no more fees!!!! no more waste! You have to be kidding me, Chrono. If you're going to make an investment, you have to look at the positives and negatives. You can't just be like "Oh bitcoins so great, buy them all", you have to look at it from every angle. There are positives, and there are negatives, and there isn't a definite answer whether they will work or not. And I had bitcoins from the get-go, I didn't exactly invest money in them, so I didn't really have a choice besides wait until the price is right. o well just saying u should probably do a bit more research. i certainly wouldnt cash out that much. just enough to get by. its pretty freaking hard to get whole bitcoins now. by the way ive been looking it bitcoin from many angles for awhile now and well ill continue to look at it from all angles. just right now people are arguing the same old points that have been debunked already. if its not bitcoin its just gona be another one just like it. what does not work is the current money we use now and the banking system and its getting more and more clearer day by day. Just because our current system is not perfect doesn't mean this new system would be better. Right now most people still look at BTC not because it has potential to be a currency, but because they heard that people were getting rich off of it. Just like how this thread explodes when the price goes up - but nobody comments when the price is constant (which is what the currency needs). imo what it needs more than anything is an implemented system of dividing bitcoins into smaller units... A lot of people are now using millibits, but we need something that every1 can work in/deal with... Because saying "You need 1000 for 1 bitcoin" a 90% of the population goes "wtf i dont have 1000 for only one" and they assume that bitcoins are like pennys and cannot be split. Which is not the case at all. Exchanges need to start trading formally in smaller units so that newcomers arent so afraid/hesitant. A lot of newcomers dont understand that you can spend 1/1000th of a coin. also idk how i feel about true stability... the potential of being an investment is the draw for some users... Imagine having a checking account where you can buy any/everything you want out of it.. while still investing. Imagine if you could throw $50,000 in the stock market while still being able to buy stuff with your money currently in the market. IDK tho cause i know the stock market also = risk, similar to bitcoins. But if bitcoins were somewhat stable, this reality wouldnt be too far-fetched i guess. Yes this is what is hard to explain to joe blogs when you say, 1 bitcoin is worth $1000 at the moment. They just go err wtf? How is 1coin worth so much. Then you say well it costs like 0.00039 to subscribe to TL+. Then you just completely lose them with values like that. They need to re generalize the way the currency looks to joe blogs imo. I mean say this is the future and in 25years time we have global currency which is Bitcoin....you go to McDonalds and your paying like 0.00045 for a BigMac meal, just doesns't look right. xD
They could just put the price in something more stable like USD. 60$ USD is very stable and you see exactly how many bit coins it is with the exchange rate. At least while bitcoin value is so unstable.
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On December 03 2013 01:45 Acrofales wrote:
I am not an economist and not a big speculator either, but bitcoins as a long-term investment seems incredibly risky.
As an economist, I would say you are right.
A lot of attention comes from the fact that bitcoin is rising in value, people are rushing to get more coins, more demand => higher price.
For those who are getting coins for a long term investment, it is damn risky.
The fundamental idea of bitcoin will be a huge problem.
You have no central bank to "safe guard" your money.
Your money, if stolen, is not tracable.
You have to be smart and spent considerable amount of effort to keep the coin safe, but you can't trust some others to help you.
The mistrust on government and financial institution make it a big thing, for now because of the GFC.
I would say the idea of the currency is interesting, but I just can't see the world is ready for it and it really needs to show some more proof that it is worth investing before the boom/hype dies down
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On December 03 2013 18:42 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 01:45 Acrofales wrote:
I am not an economist and not a big speculator either, but bitcoins as a long-term investment seems incredibly risky. As an economist, I would say you are right. A lot of attention comes from the fact that bitcoin is rising in value, people are rushing to get more coins, more demand => higher price. For those who are getting coins for a long term investment, it is damn risky. The fundamental idea of bitcoin will be a huge problem. You have no central bank to "safe guard" your money. Your money, if stolen, is not tracable. You have to be smart and spent considerable amount of effort to keep the coin safe, but you can't trust some others to help you. The mistrust on government and financial institution make it a big thing, for now because of the GFC. I would say the idea of the currency is interesting, but I just can't see the world is ready for it and it really needs to show some more proof that it is worth investing before the boom/hype dies down
You forget one thing.
The value of the coin is not important for it's main purpose, transfer of funds.
These things are not so trivial, how do you by shoes online from Iran?
How do you send money to your relatives in China?
You do not need to spend any effort to keep your coins safe.
Noone thinks that one system is going to replace the other.
Tracability of your money is something very recent anyway. The world has been running on cash for thousands of years.
I don't see the current system safeguarding my money, and I don't have any distrust in the $ or the €. These paper money have a built-in cost.
You make actually a big mistake by thinking that there is no tracability, it's the absolute opposite, there is 100% public traceability. You confuse traceability and anonymity, but let's say a shop gives you an address to pay to. You pay, they can't claim they never received the money.
You just can't see the world being ready? How can't you see it. Bitcoin cash distributors are getting installed, subway is accepting bitcoin in two countries... Paying with bitcoins, a money that's been around for 5 years is growing exponentially fast.
The bitcoin is still small in the scale of the global economy, there are few guys with more money than the value of total bitcoins. I know you are thinking that the total value is pointless as there is no way everyone could get the current price for their good right if they decided to sell, but the same is true with any good or money.
People are criticizing speculator, but those speculators are also those who give trust in the coin. If you don't have people keeping their coins because they think it is worth more than the current value, why do you think it even has the current value?
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On December 03 2013 16:09 magicmUnky wrote:Some guy was saying that there are heaps of fees... Yeah there are exhange fees but why do you care? You can send as much money to anyone as you want with bitcoin and see no fees... try to do that with your credit card. Name another zero-fee digital currency transfer? Paypal takes a cut, visa/mastercard take a cut... everyone takes a cut! And you pay monthly fees for bank accounts in general. That's what the no fees thing is and frankly, it sounds fantastic. The problem at the moment is the instability of the currency. That fact that the price keeps appreciating makes me wary of using it... I'm better off holding on to the coins than I am using them...
The exchange fees are HIGH. And until I can go to the supermarket and pay in bitcoins that matters. I don't often want to transfer large amounts of money to other people. I do often go to the supermarket.
Also, my online banking from the Netherlands, and the one in Spain, allows me to transfer money anywhere in the Euro zone without a fee. That's pretty much the exact same thing, because if I want to transfer money outside of Europe it has to switch currency.
Obviously I don't know about sums > 10,000 euros, because different rules apply, but I have never had to transfer that much.
That is far more comparable to bitcoins than Western Union. Bitcoin doesn't do exactly what Western Union does. Western Union allows me to send my Brazilian Reals to China, where they are payed out in Yuan, to South Africa where they are payed out in Rand, or anywhere else they have an office. Sending bitcoins there is all very well, but I would still have to transfer my BRL into bitcoins, and upon arrival, the receiver would have to transfer them into the local currency.
That isn't feeless, and in fact, it is largely impossible. What I have to do if I want bitcoins is convert my BRLs to USD in one of the sites like mtgox. Then I can buy bitcoins with my USD. These I can send to my friend on the other side of the world, who can convert them back to USD and through that to the local currency he needs. Each of those 4 operations has a pretty significant fee and in total it's more than I would pay to just use a conventional wire transfer system.
HOWEVER, if bitcoin were to function as an actual global currency, where my bitcoins are accepted as valid payment anywhere I go (somewhat like USD for plenty of places in Africa, or Euros for eastern Europe), then things start to change. But that is a LONG way off and bitcoin has a lot hurdles to jump before that happens... and there will probably be government institutions and other regulatory instances in there somewhere, charging fees for what they do.
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the banking system is a huge ripoff. i transfered 1000 € to australia it was 27€ fee plus a shitty exchnage rate and basicly 940 arrived that is 6%! MASSIVE! maybe it gets smaller when it comes to 10k and so on idk.
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1175.0
Well shit it was 1080 yesterday... How I wish I somehow had bought a couple thousand of these when they were dirt cheap.
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ill just sit and grain, money will roll right in.
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On December 03 2013 14:32 MaestroSC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 13:19 heroyi wrote:On December 03 2013 12:31 calgar wrote:On December 03 2013 11:07 MaestroSC wrote:On December 03 2013 09:09 FiWiFaKi wrote:On December 03 2013 07:43 MaestroSC wrote:On December 03 2013 06:49 FiWiFaKi wrote:On December 03 2013 04:55 Chrono000 wrote:On December 03 2013 04:42 FiWiFaKi wrote:On December 03 2013 04:33 Chrono000 wrote:
[quote]
? 3/4 million so he had bitcoins and now is arguing the negatives on bitcoin?
anyway id like more bitcoin merchents around everywhere, no more fees!!!! no more waste! You have to be kidding me, Chrono. If you're going to make an investment, you have to look at the positives and negatives. You can't just be like "Oh bitcoins so great, buy them all", you have to look at it from every angle. There are positives, and there are negatives, and there isn't a definite answer whether they will work or not. And I had bitcoins from the get-go, I didn't exactly invest money in them, so I didn't really have a choice besides wait until the price is right. o well just saying u should probably do a bit more research. i certainly wouldnt cash out that much. just enough to get by. its pretty freaking hard to get whole bitcoins now. by the way ive been looking it bitcoin from many angles for awhile now and well ill continue to look at it from all angles. just right now people are arguing the same old points that have been debunked already. if its not bitcoin its just gona be another one just like it. what does not work is the current money we use now and the banking system and its getting more and more clearer day by day. Just because our current system is not perfect doesn't mean this new system would be better. Right now most people still look at BTC not because it has potential to be a currency, but because they heard that people were getting rich off of it. Just like how this thread explodes when the price goes up - but nobody comments when the price is constant (which is what the currency needs). imo what it needs more than anything is an implemented system of dividing bitcoins into smaller units... A lot of people are now using millibits, but we need something that every1 can work in/deal with... Because saying "You need 1000 for 1 bitcoin" a 90% of the population goes "wtf i dont have 1000 for only one" and they assume that bitcoins are like pennys and cannot be split. Which is not the case at all. Exchanges need to start trading formally in smaller units so that newcomers arent so afraid/hesitant. A lot of newcomers dont understand that you can spend 1/1000th of a coin. also idk how i feel about true stability... the potential of being an investment is the draw for some users... Imagine having a checking account where you can buy any/everything you want out of it.. while still investing. Imagine if you could throw $50,000 in the stock market while still being able to buy stuff with your money currently in the market. IDK tho cause i know the stock market also = risk, similar to bitcoins. But if bitcoins were somewhat stable, this reality wouldnt be too far-fetched i guess. You need to stop thinking about the BTC as an investment... For the BTC to be used as a currency, people need to treat it as a currency. Just like if you trade USD to Euro you aren't thinking you are invest money, you are just using a different medium of exchange. If we are under the impression that the goal of the BTC is to create a virtual currency, it cannot be a stock market. I will list my biggest issues with bitcoin right now: 1) If fractional reserve banking is used (which it must if it is to be a viable currency), it is a lot more likely that if there is no government backing of the bitcoin that if there is a change in price many people will try to cash their bitcoins, and the banks will not have enough money. Then you get bank runs, and it's good game. Don't really see how this is preventable. 2) Deflation. Coins can be easily lost, hoarding will be an issue as long as another currency exists. No human behavior will be able to offset all the deflation of bitcoins. Deflation leads to many bad things: wages, reduce spending (slows economy). 3) No fees is totally bullshit. Check the exchanges, they have fees, actually very high fees, I don't know why people keep trying to advertise no fees. I have no fees using my visa, I get fees using bitcoins. Check here: https://www.mtgox.com/fee-schedule.... It will actually be just like paper money in that regard, there will still be a banking system. There will always be a banking system with the same mechanic as you have now. I'm uncertain why people think this wouldn't be the case? 4) The markets for trading suck. Unlike currency exchange where it's much easier to keep it secure, the bit-coin markets must constantly keep up with technology to prevent any breaches, I honestly don't trust a privately run company to be able to do that. Geez Mtgox can't even convert many peoples' money to USD within 2 months. You just need government regulation to make it safe, but that defeats the purpose. Why do you think the price varies so wildly between exchanges? LOTS of fees and trouble converting to cash. 5) Bitcoins are very bad for the government. When there is a 2% inflation rate and the government prints the money to maintain the inflation rate at 2%... It practically gives the government free money, as well as the control over its money supply. Bitcoins, and everything about them would be a nightmare to deal with for governments. Government sacrifices lots of power by not being able to control the money supply. The stability of the currency weakens when the supply cannot be controlled. There will be pressure to prevent bitcoins from becoming the dominant currency. 6) Actually there's quite a lot more issues, and they aren't easy ones to solve. People are being too optimistic imo. currency trading has always been a thing tho. One of my buddies dads has been a currency trader for the past 30 years and has made plenty of money off of it. Whether it is a smart thing is the question. Did he beat the 30 year stock market average on annual rate of return? How much time did he spend doing so? I'm always extremely skeptical of commodity trading and day trading. There seems to be so much risk and so little means to actually give yourself a true advantage in the long run. Piggy backing on this: everyone keeps saying that bitcoin is going to go only higher and higher...Bitcoin already has passed that $1000 line you really think a currency like this is going to just keep going up and up? It is going to crash sooner or later. Hard (it won't bounce back to what it was previously down in the future). The bubble is there and it will burst. Back when bitcoins were kinda young then yes they would be a pretty sound investment. An underground currency that bypasses lot of security and watchdogs. Currency that has digital properties (strong, secure). Now the current stage the bitcoins are at make them quite risky. IMO the market for them is no different than the penny stock market...and everyone knows about that hell I know better than to argue with someone who speaks in absolutes on something that he literally 100% cannot prove lol. Seriously every1 is entitled to their opinion or view on the matter, but stating matter of factly what is going to happen, is your best guess, as much as other people are guessing they become worth more. Will never understand people who make statements like this. Tell me is there a God too? I am sure you have that one nailed. Also on what day will you die o wise seer? And to the guy with the question, currency trading has been his career for the past 30+ years. Last time I talked to him he had just gotten back from his vacation in Dubai.
I didn't mean to come off pretentious as I was simply trying to raise an argument and want people to argue otherwise.
I don't see any other reason to believe otherwise as this (bitcoin) is not some different entity that is immune to a bubble burst. Rule of thumb is if something hits the media hard then generally speaking you are too late to the party to reap large amount of rewards for little risk. Yes, people will spend money which I am fine as some like to live dangerously. But I don't understand why people are going to go out and invest a large sum (that is outside of their comfort zone) into something that is now extremely volatile (with the recent media attention) and risky. My ears are open to anyone that can raise a good argument and be CIVIL about it.
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United States22883 Posts
On December 03 2013 19:55 0x64 wrote:
You just can't see the world being ready? How can't you see it. Bitcoin cash distributors are getting installed, subway is accepting bitcoin in two countries... Paying with bitcoins, a money that's been around for 5 years is growing exponentially fast.
The world isn't ready because the variability of its value is too high. Bitcoin does offer advantages to those who understand it, but the price has to stop swinging wildly from day-to-day and a lot more people will need to understand it. Not that most people understand the current monetary system, but they at least understand the payment mechanism. There's several key tests that Bitcoin still fails at, and its incredibly quick ascension in value only helps those investing in it, not the currency as a whole gain acceptance.
http://blockchain.info/charts/market-price
This is what you want out of an investment (assuming you got in during a valley.) This is not what you want out of a currency.
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On December 03 2013 23:08 heroyi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 14:32 MaestroSC wrote:On December 03 2013 13:19 heroyi wrote:On December 03 2013 12:31 calgar wrote:On December 03 2013 11:07 MaestroSC wrote:On December 03 2013 09:09 FiWiFaKi wrote:On December 03 2013 07:43 MaestroSC wrote:On December 03 2013 06:49 FiWiFaKi wrote:On December 03 2013 04:55 Chrono000 wrote:On December 03 2013 04:42 FiWiFaKi wrote:
[quote]
You have to be kidding me, Chrono. If you're going to make an investment, you have to look at the positives and negatives. You can't just be like "Oh bitcoins so great, buy them all", you have to look at it from every angle. There are positives, and there are negatives, and there isn't a definite answer whether they will work or not.
And I had bitcoins from the get-go, I didn't exactly invest money in them, so I didn't really have a choice besides wait until the price is right. o well just saying u should probably do a bit more research. i certainly wouldnt cash out that much. just enough to get by. its pretty freaking hard to get whole bitcoins now. by the way ive been looking it bitcoin from many angles for awhile now and well ill continue to look at it from all angles. just right now people are arguing the same old points that have been debunked already. if its not bitcoin its just gona be another one just like it. what does not work is the current money we use now and the banking system and its getting more and more clearer day by day. Just because our current system is not perfect doesn't mean this new system would be better. Right now most people still look at BTC not because it has potential to be a currency, but because they heard that people were getting rich off of it. Just like how this thread explodes when the price goes up - but nobody comments when the price is constant (which is what the currency needs). imo what it needs more than anything is an implemented system of dividing bitcoins into smaller units... A lot of people are now using millibits, but we need something that every1 can work in/deal with... Because saying "You need 1000 for 1 bitcoin" a 90% of the population goes "wtf i dont have 1000 for only one" and they assume that bitcoins are like pennys and cannot be split. Which is not the case at all. Exchanges need to start trading formally in smaller units so that newcomers arent so afraid/hesitant. A lot of newcomers dont understand that you can spend 1/1000th of a coin. also idk how i feel about true stability... the potential of being an investment is the draw for some users... Imagine having a checking account where you can buy any/everything you want out of it.. while still investing. Imagine if you could throw $50,000 in the stock market while still being able to buy stuff with your money currently in the market. IDK tho cause i know the stock market also = risk, similar to bitcoins. But if bitcoins were somewhat stable, this reality wouldnt be too far-fetched i guess. You need to stop thinking about the BTC as an investment... For the BTC to be used as a currency, people need to treat it as a currency. Just like if you trade USD to Euro you aren't thinking you are invest money, you are just using a different medium of exchange. If we are under the impression that the goal of the BTC is to create a virtual currency, it cannot be a stock market. I will list my biggest issues with bitcoin right now: 1) If fractional reserve banking is used (which it must if it is to be a viable currency), it is a lot more likely that if there is no government backing of the bitcoin that if there is a change in price many people will try to cash their bitcoins, and the banks will not have enough money. Then you get bank runs, and it's good game. Don't really see how this is preventable. 2) Deflation. Coins can be easily lost, hoarding will be an issue as long as another currency exists. No human behavior will be able to offset all the deflation of bitcoins. Deflation leads to many bad things: wages, reduce spending (slows economy). 3) No fees is totally bullshit. Check the exchanges, they have fees, actually very high fees, I don't know why people keep trying to advertise no fees. I have no fees using my visa, I get fees using bitcoins. Check here: https://www.mtgox.com/fee-schedule.... It will actually be just like paper money in that regard, there will still be a banking system. There will always be a banking system with the same mechanic as you have now. I'm uncertain why people think this wouldn't be the case? 4) The markets for trading suck. Unlike currency exchange where it's much easier to keep it secure, the bit-coin markets must constantly keep up with technology to prevent any breaches, I honestly don't trust a privately run company to be able to do that. Geez Mtgox can't even convert many peoples' money to USD within 2 months. You just need government regulation to make it safe, but that defeats the purpose. Why do you think the price varies so wildly between exchanges? LOTS of fees and trouble converting to cash. 5) Bitcoins are very bad for the government. When there is a 2% inflation rate and the government prints the money to maintain the inflation rate at 2%... It practically gives the government free money, as well as the control over its money supply. Bitcoins, and everything about them would be a nightmare to deal with for governments. Government sacrifices lots of power by not being able to control the money supply. The stability of the currency weakens when the supply cannot be controlled. There will be pressure to prevent bitcoins from becoming the dominant currency. 6) Actually there's quite a lot more issues, and they aren't easy ones to solve. People are being too optimistic imo. currency trading has always been a thing tho. One of my buddies dads has been a currency trader for the past 30 years and has made plenty of money off of it. Whether it is a smart thing is the question. Did he beat the 30 year stock market average on annual rate of return? How much time did he spend doing so? I'm always extremely skeptical of commodity trading and day trading. There seems to be so much risk and so little means to actually give yourself a true advantage in the long run. Piggy backing on this: everyone keeps saying that bitcoin is going to go only higher and higher...Bitcoin already has passed that $1000 line you really think a currency like this is going to just keep going up and up? It is going to crash sooner or later. Hard (it won't bounce back to what it was previously down in the future). The bubble is there and it will burst. Back when bitcoins were kinda young then yes they would be a pretty sound investment. An underground currency that bypasses lot of security and watchdogs. Currency that has digital properties (strong, secure). Now the current stage the bitcoins are at make them quite risky. IMO the market for them is no different than the penny stock market...and everyone knows about that hell I know better than to argue with someone who speaks in absolutes on something that he literally 100% cannot prove lol. Seriously every1 is entitled to their opinion or view on the matter, but stating matter of factly what is going to happen, is your best guess, as much as other people are guessing they become worth more. Will never understand people who make statements like this. Tell me is there a God too? I am sure you have that one nailed. Also on what day will you die o wise seer? And to the guy with the question, currency trading has been his career for the past 30+ years. Last time I talked to him he had just gotten back from his vacation in Dubai. I didn't mean to come off pretentious as I was simply trying to raise an argument and want people to argue otherwise. I don't see any other reason to believe otherwise as this (bitcoin) is not some different entity that is immune to a bubble burst. Rule of thumb is if something hits the media hard then generally speaking you are too late to the party to reap large amount of rewards for little risk. Yes, people will spend money which I am fine as some like to live dangerously. But I don't understand why people are going to go out and invest a large sum (that is outside of their comfort zone) into something that is now extremely volatile (with the recent media attention) and risky. My ears are open to anyone that can raise a good argument and be CIVIL about it.
Because we are past this argument.
We don't need to explain to each newcomer in this thread why it is so. The arguments have been raised again and again.
Each burst bubble make the bitcoin stronger.
The more the bitcoins are distributed to a bigger number of people the better. If the bubble burst, it makes it stronger, and like the phoenix rises from its ashes, the bitcoin reach a new high with higher degree of confidence.
The price of the bitcoin is a collective agreement that it is worth that much.
If you think it's worth less and you have none, your opinion is irrelevant.
If you have bitcoins and think they are worth less, sell them.
If you have bitcoin and have no idea about anything, wait and see but don't keep 99% of your saving on it and be ready to have that value divided time to time by 4. When a real bubble burst, the confidence is lost for long, but what is happening at each miniburst is that a very small proportion of the bitcoin possessors have panicked.
Another strange effect is that the Bitcoin is best used as a money, so people are likely to keep them while the services appears to avoid conversion fees. Now, if you sell all your bitcoin, you end up paying huge profit taxes depending where you live.
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On December 03 2013 23:17 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 19:55 0x64 wrote:
You just can't see the world being ready? How can't you see it. Bitcoin cash distributors are getting installed, subway is accepting bitcoin in two countries... Paying with bitcoins, a money that's been around for 5 years is growing exponentially fast. The world isn't ready because the variability of its value is too high. Bitcoin does offer advantages to those who understand it, but the price has to stop swinging wildly from day-to-day and a lot more people will need to understand it. Not that most people understand the current monetary system, but they at least understand the payment mechanism. There's several key tests that Bitcoin still fails at, and its incredibly quick ascension in value only helps those investing in it, not the currency as a whole gain acceptance. http://blockchain.info/charts/market-priceThis is what you want out of an investment (assuming you got in during a valley.) This is not what you want out of a currency.
I somewhat agree to what you said, but I am more optimistic. It's like pirating, people finds the way when they really want something. I've seen 60 year old grand mothers download illegal stuff while they didn't know how to move a window.
It's about the form factor. The bitcoin can and will end up in some sort of credit card form factor and then at first people will use it as cash for small value purchases, where you don't really care about the risk of double spending and the risk of losing it...
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On December 03 2013 23:21 0x64 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 23:08 heroyi wrote:On December 03 2013 14:32 MaestroSC wrote:On December 03 2013 13:19 heroyi wrote:On December 03 2013 12:31 calgar wrote:On December 03 2013 11:07 MaestroSC wrote:On December 03 2013 09:09 FiWiFaKi wrote:On December 03 2013 07:43 MaestroSC wrote:On December 03 2013 06:49 FiWiFaKi wrote:On December 03 2013 04:55 Chrono000 wrote:
[quote]
o well just saying u should probably do a bit more research. i certainly wouldnt cash out that much. just enough to get by. its pretty freaking hard to get whole bitcoins now.
by the way ive been looking it bitcoin from many angles for awhile now and well ill continue to look at it from all angles. just right now people are arguing the same old points that have been debunked already. if its not bitcoin its just gona be another one just like it.
what does not work is the current money we use now and the banking system and its getting more and more clearer day by day. Just because our current system is not perfect doesn't mean this new system would be better. Right now most people still look at BTC not because it has potential to be a currency, but because they heard that people were getting rich off of it. Just like how this thread explodes when the price goes up - but nobody comments when the price is constant (which is what the currency needs). imo what it needs more than anything is an implemented system of dividing bitcoins into smaller units... A lot of people are now using millibits, but we need something that every1 can work in/deal with... Because saying "You need 1000 for 1 bitcoin" a 90% of the population goes "wtf i dont have 1000 for only one" and they assume that bitcoins are like pennys and cannot be split. Which is not the case at all. Exchanges need to start trading formally in smaller units so that newcomers arent so afraid/hesitant. A lot of newcomers dont understand that you can spend 1/1000th of a coin. also idk how i feel about true stability... the potential of being an investment is the draw for some users... Imagine having a checking account where you can buy any/everything you want out of it.. while still investing. Imagine if you could throw $50,000 in the stock market while still being able to buy stuff with your money currently in the market. IDK tho cause i know the stock market also = risk, similar to bitcoins. But if bitcoins were somewhat stable, this reality wouldnt be too far-fetched i guess. You need to stop thinking about the BTC as an investment... For the BTC to be used as a currency, people need to treat it as a currency. Just like if you trade USD to Euro you aren't thinking you are invest money, you are just using a different medium of exchange. If we are under the impression that the goal of the BTC is to create a virtual currency, it cannot be a stock market. I will list my biggest issues with bitcoin right now: 1) If fractional reserve banking is used (which it must if it is to be a viable currency), it is a lot more likely that if there is no government backing of the bitcoin that if there is a change in price many people will try to cash their bitcoins, and the banks will not have enough money. Then you get bank runs, and it's good game. Don't really see how this is preventable. 2) Deflation. Coins can be easily lost, hoarding will be an issue as long as another currency exists. No human behavior will be able to offset all the deflation of bitcoins. Deflation leads to many bad things: wages, reduce spending (slows economy). 3) No fees is totally bullshit. Check the exchanges, they have fees, actually very high fees, I don't know why people keep trying to advertise no fees. I have no fees using my visa, I get fees using bitcoins. Check here: https://www.mtgox.com/fee-schedule.... It will actually be just like paper money in that regard, there will still be a banking system. There will always be a banking system with the same mechanic as you have now. I'm uncertain why people think this wouldn't be the case? 4) The markets for trading suck. Unlike currency exchange where it's much easier to keep it secure, the bit-coin markets must constantly keep up with technology to prevent any breaches, I honestly don't trust a privately run company to be able to do that. Geez Mtgox can't even convert many peoples' money to USD within 2 months. You just need government regulation to make it safe, but that defeats the purpose. Why do you think the price varies so wildly between exchanges? LOTS of fees and trouble converting to cash. 5) Bitcoins are very bad for the government. When there is a 2% inflation rate and the government prints the money to maintain the inflation rate at 2%... It practically gives the government free money, as well as the control over its money supply. Bitcoins, and everything about them would be a nightmare to deal with for governments. Government sacrifices lots of power by not being able to control the money supply. The stability of the currency weakens when the supply cannot be controlled. There will be pressure to prevent bitcoins from becoming the dominant currency. 6) Actually there's quite a lot more issues, and they aren't easy ones to solve. People are being too optimistic imo. currency trading has always been a thing tho. One of my buddies dads has been a currency trader for the past 30 years and has made plenty of money off of it. Whether it is a smart thing is the question. Did he beat the 30 year stock market average on annual rate of return? How much time did he spend doing so? I'm always extremely skeptical of commodity trading and day trading. There seems to be so much risk and so little means to actually give yourself a true advantage in the long run. Piggy backing on this: everyone keeps saying that bitcoin is going to go only higher and higher...Bitcoin already has passed that $1000 line you really think a currency like this is going to just keep going up and up? It is going to crash sooner or later. Hard (it won't bounce back to what it was previously down in the future). The bubble is there and it will burst. Back when bitcoins were kinda young then yes they would be a pretty sound investment. An underground currency that bypasses lot of security and watchdogs. Currency that has digital properties (strong, secure). Now the current stage the bitcoins are at make them quite risky. IMO the market for them is no different than the penny stock market...and everyone knows about that hell I know better than to argue with someone who speaks in absolutes on something that he literally 100% cannot prove lol. Seriously every1 is entitled to their opinion or view on the matter, but stating matter of factly what is going to happen, is your best guess, as much as other people are guessing they become worth more. Will never understand people who make statements like this. Tell me is there a God too? I am sure you have that one nailed. Also on what day will you die o wise seer? And to the guy with the question, currency trading has been his career for the past 30+ years. Last time I talked to him he had just gotten back from his vacation in Dubai. I didn't mean to come off pretentious as I was simply trying to raise an argument and want people to argue otherwise. I don't see any other reason to believe otherwise as this (bitcoin) is not some different entity that is immune to a bubble burst. Rule of thumb is if something hits the media hard then generally speaking you are too late to the party to reap large amount of rewards for little risk. Yes, people will spend money which I am fine as some like to live dangerously. But I don't understand why people are going to go out and invest a large sum (that is outside of their comfort zone) into something that is now extremely volatile (with the recent media attention) and risky. My ears are open to anyone that can raise a good argument and be CIVIL about it. Because we are past this argument. We don't need to explain to each newcomer in this thread why it is so. The arguments have been raised again and again. Each burst bubble make the bitcoin stronger. The more the bitcoins are distributed to a bigger number of people the better. If the bubble burst, it makes it stronger, and like the phoenix rises from its ashes, the bitcoin reach a new high with higher degree of confidence. The price of the bitcoin is a collective agreement that it is worth that much. If you think it's worth less and you have none, your opinion is irrelevant. If you have bitcoins and think they are worth less, sell them. If you have bitcoin and have no idea about anything, wait and see but don't keep 99% of your saving on it and be ready to have that value divided time to time by 4. When a real bubble burst, the confidence is lost for long, but what is happening at each miniburst is that a very small proportion of the bitcoin possessors have panicked. Another strange effect is that the Bitcoin is best used as a money, so people are likely to keep them while the services appears to avoid conversion fees. Now, if you sell all your bitcoin, you end up paying huge profit taxes depending where you live.
That's the whole problem of bitcoin. It is a currency that cannot be used as a currency, because everybody is using it to speculate. How many people in this thread have actually USED a bitcoin to buy a pizza (or anything else)... and same question but limited to the last half a year or so.
How do you even decide on the value of a pizza in bitcoins when the value, when compared to the USD, fluctuates so wildly.
Hell, the Zimbabwe Dollar has more use as a currency than the bitcoin at the moment. At least you know that is only going to go down in the near future, so you'd best spend it all ASAP.
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just bite the bullet and buy a little bitcoin. u will learn way more from using it then from sitting here using your little brain thinking why it wouldnt work.
you will also sit and grin, money will roll right in.
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On December 03 2013 23:27 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 23:21 0x64 wrote:On December 03 2013 23:08 heroyi wrote:On December 03 2013 14:32 MaestroSC wrote:On December 03 2013 13:19 heroyi wrote:On December 03 2013 12:31 calgar wrote:On December 03 2013 11:07 MaestroSC wrote:On December 03 2013 09:09 FiWiFaKi wrote:On December 03 2013 07:43 MaestroSC wrote:On December 03 2013 06:49 FiWiFaKi wrote:
[quote]
Just because our current system is not perfect doesn't mean this new system would be better. Right now most people still look at BTC not because it has potential to be a currency, but because they heard that people were getting rich off of it. Just like how this thread explodes when the price goes up - but nobody comments when the price is constant (which is what the currency needs).
imo what it needs more than anything is an implemented system of dividing bitcoins into smaller units... A lot of people are now using millibits, but we need something that every1 can work in/deal with... Because saying "You need 1000 for 1 bitcoin" a 90% of the population goes "wtf i dont have 1000 for only one" and they assume that bitcoins are like pennys and cannot be split. Which is not the case at all. Exchanges need to start trading formally in smaller units so that newcomers arent so afraid/hesitant. A lot of newcomers dont understand that you can spend 1/1000th of a coin. also idk how i feel about true stability... the potential of being an investment is the draw for some users... Imagine having a checking account where you can buy any/everything you want out of it.. while still investing. Imagine if you could throw $50,000 in the stock market while still being able to buy stuff with your money currently in the market. IDK tho cause i know the stock market also = risk, similar to bitcoins. But if bitcoins were somewhat stable, this reality wouldnt be too far-fetched i guess. You need to stop thinking about the BTC as an investment... For the BTC to be used as a currency, people need to treat it as a currency. Just like if you trade USD to Euro you aren't thinking you are invest money, you are just using a different medium of exchange. If we are under the impression that the goal of the BTC is to create a virtual currency, it cannot be a stock market. I will list my biggest issues with bitcoin right now: 1) If fractional reserve banking is used (which it must if it is to be a viable currency), it is a lot more likely that if there is no government backing of the bitcoin that if there is a change in price many people will try to cash their bitcoins, and the banks will not have enough money. Then you get bank runs, and it's good game. Don't really see how this is preventable. 2) Deflation. Coins can be easily lost, hoarding will be an issue as long as another currency exists. No human behavior will be able to offset all the deflation of bitcoins. Deflation leads to many bad things: wages, reduce spending (slows economy). 3) No fees is totally bullshit. Check the exchanges, they have fees, actually very high fees, I don't know why people keep trying to advertise no fees. I have no fees using my visa, I get fees using bitcoins. Check here: https://www.mtgox.com/fee-schedule.... It will actually be just like paper money in that regard, there will still be a banking system. There will always be a banking system with the same mechanic as you have now. I'm uncertain why people think this wouldn't be the case? 4) The markets for trading suck. Unlike currency exchange where it's much easier to keep it secure, the bit-coin markets must constantly keep up with technology to prevent any breaches, I honestly don't trust a privately run company to be able to do that. Geez Mtgox can't even convert many peoples' money to USD within 2 months. You just need government regulation to make it safe, but that defeats the purpose. Why do you think the price varies so wildly between exchanges? LOTS of fees and trouble converting to cash. 5) Bitcoins are very bad for the government. When there is a 2% inflation rate and the government prints the money to maintain the inflation rate at 2%... It practically gives the government free money, as well as the control over its money supply. Bitcoins, and everything about them would be a nightmare to deal with for governments. Government sacrifices lots of power by not being able to control the money supply. The stability of the currency weakens when the supply cannot be controlled. There will be pressure to prevent bitcoins from becoming the dominant currency. 6) Actually there's quite a lot more issues, and they aren't easy ones to solve. People are being too optimistic imo. currency trading has always been a thing tho. One of my buddies dads has been a currency trader for the past 30 years and has made plenty of money off of it. Whether it is a smart thing is the question. Did he beat the 30 year stock market average on annual rate of return? How much time did he spend doing so? I'm always extremely skeptical of commodity trading and day trading. There seems to be so much risk and so little means to actually give yourself a true advantage in the long run. Piggy backing on this: everyone keeps saying that bitcoin is going to go only higher and higher...Bitcoin already has passed that $1000 line you really think a currency like this is going to just keep going up and up? It is going to crash sooner or later. Hard (it won't bounce back to what it was previously down in the future). The bubble is there and it will burst. Back when bitcoins were kinda young then yes they would be a pretty sound investment. An underground currency that bypasses lot of security and watchdogs. Currency that has digital properties (strong, secure). Now the current stage the bitcoins are at make them quite risky. IMO the market for them is no different than the penny stock market...and everyone knows about that hell I know better than to argue with someone who speaks in absolutes on something that he literally 100% cannot prove lol. Seriously every1 is entitled to their opinion or view on the matter, but stating matter of factly what is going to happen, is your best guess, as much as other people are guessing they become worth more. Will never understand people who make statements like this. Tell me is there a God too? I am sure you have that one nailed. Also on what day will you die o wise seer? And to the guy with the question, currency trading has been his career for the past 30+ years. Last time I talked to him he had just gotten back from his vacation in Dubai. I didn't mean to come off pretentious as I was simply trying to raise an argument and want people to argue otherwise. I don't see any other reason to believe otherwise as this (bitcoin) is not some different entity that is immune to a bubble burst. Rule of thumb is if something hits the media hard then generally speaking you are too late to the party to reap large amount of rewards for little risk. Yes, people will spend money which I am fine as some like to live dangerously. But I don't understand why people are going to go out and invest a large sum (that is outside of their comfort zone) into something that is now extremely volatile (with the recent media attention) and risky. My ears are open to anyone that can raise a good argument and be CIVIL about it. Because we are past this argument. We don't need to explain to each newcomer in this thread why it is so. The arguments have been raised again and again. Each burst bubble make the bitcoin stronger. The more the bitcoins are distributed to a bigger number of people the better. If the bubble burst, it makes it stronger, and like the phoenix rises from its ashes, the bitcoin reach a new high with higher degree of confidence. The price of the bitcoin is a collective agreement that it is worth that much. If you think it's worth less and you have none, your opinion is irrelevant. If you have bitcoins and think they are worth less, sell them. If you have bitcoin and have no idea about anything, wait and see but don't keep 99% of your saving on it and be ready to have that value divided time to time by 4. When a real bubble burst, the confidence is lost for long, but what is happening at each miniburst is that a very small proportion of the bitcoin possessors have panicked. Another strange effect is that the Bitcoin is best used as a money, so people are likely to keep them while the services appears to avoid conversion fees. Now, if you sell all your bitcoin, you end up paying huge profit taxes depending where you live. That's the whole problem of bitcoin. It is a currency that cannot be used as a currency, because everybody is using it to speculate. How many people in this thread have actually USED a bitcoin to buy a pizza (or anything else)... and same question but limited to the last half a year or so. How do you even decide on the value of a pizza in bitcoins when the value, when compared to the USD, fluctuates so wildly. Hell, the Zimbabwe Dollar has more use as a currency than the bitcoin at the moment. At least you know that is only going to go down in the near future, so you'd best spend it all ASAP.
But the thing is that you start to have facilitators, that you didn't have 6 months ago and thing are moving fast. The thing is that you don't need the store to accept bitcoins if a company in between is doing the payment.
Currently, if I want to buy something with my bitcoins, I takes me 24 hours but I'd love to pay straight away with bitcoin.
I can already pay my dentist in BitCoin.
This empty box effect is true, it is hard to deal in Bitcoin but that's why we need a huge amount of speculator as the mass and the confidence rise, the price has to stabilize.
One of the most obvious application for bitcoin will be digital purchase of software.
Anyway I am fascinated where this is all going, as you can assume that the services will be coming, and the amount of place accepting coins will rise.
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On December 03 2013 23:36 Chrono000 wrote:
just bite the bullet and buy a little bitcoin. u will learn way more from using it then from sitting here using your little brain thinking why it wouldnt work.
you will also sit and grain, money will roll right in.
Hah that was my advice to all my friend when the coin was at 60$, "I will never tell that bitcoins are a good investment, but by one so you can tell you are part of the history if that happen"
One of my friend listened and bough 4.
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On December 03 2013 23:42 0x64 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 23:27 Acrofales wrote:On December 03 2013 23:21 0x64 wrote:On December 03 2013 23:08 heroyi wrote:On December 03 2013 14:32 MaestroSC wrote:On December 03 2013 13:19 heroyi wrote:On December 03 2013 12:31 calgar wrote:On December 03 2013 11:07 MaestroSC wrote:On December 03 2013 09:09 FiWiFaKi wrote:On December 03 2013 07:43 MaestroSC wrote:
[quote]
imo what it needs more than anything is an implemented system of dividing bitcoins into smaller units...
A lot of people are now using millibits, but we need something that every1 can work in/deal with... Because saying "You need 1000 for 1 bitcoin" a 90% of the population goes "wtf i dont have 1000 for only one" and they assume that bitcoins are like pennys and cannot be split. Which is not the case at all.
Exchanges need to start trading formally in smaller units so that newcomers arent so afraid/hesitant. A lot of newcomers dont understand that you can spend 1/1000th of a coin.
also idk how i feel about true stability... the potential of being an investment is the draw for some users... Imagine having a checking account where you can buy any/everything you want out of it.. while still investing. Imagine if you could throw $50,000 in the stock market while still being able to buy stuff with your money currently in the market.
IDK tho cause i know the stock market also = risk, similar to bitcoins. But if bitcoins were somewhat stable, this reality wouldnt be too far-fetched i guess.
You need to stop thinking about the BTC as an investment... For the BTC to be used as a currency, people need to treat it as a currency. Just like if you trade USD to Euro you aren't thinking you are invest money, you are just using a different medium of exchange. If we are under the impression that the goal of the BTC is to create a virtual currency, it cannot be a stock market. I will list my biggest issues with bitcoin right now: 1) If fractional reserve banking is used (which it must if it is to be a viable currency), it is a lot more likely that if there is no government backing of the bitcoin that if there is a change in price many people will try to cash their bitcoins, and the banks will not have enough money. Then you get bank runs, and it's good game. Don't really see how this is preventable. 2) Deflation. Coins can be easily lost, hoarding will be an issue as long as another currency exists. No human behavior will be able to offset all the deflation of bitcoins. Deflation leads to many bad things: wages, reduce spending (slows economy). 3) No fees is totally bullshit. Check the exchanges, they have fees, actually very high fees, I don't know why people keep trying to advertise no fees. I have no fees using my visa, I get fees using bitcoins. Check here: https://www.mtgox.com/fee-schedule.... It will actually be just like paper money in that regard, there will still be a banking system. There will always be a banking system with the same mechanic as you have now. I'm uncertain why people think this wouldn't be the case? 4) The markets for trading suck. Unlike currency exchange where it's much easier to keep it secure, the bit-coin markets must constantly keep up with technology to prevent any breaches, I honestly don't trust a privately run company to be able to do that. Geez Mtgox can't even convert many peoples' money to USD within 2 months. You just need government regulation to make it safe, but that defeats the purpose. Why do you think the price varies so wildly between exchanges? LOTS of fees and trouble converting to cash. 5) Bitcoins are very bad for the government. When there is a 2% inflation rate and the government prints the money to maintain the inflation rate at 2%... It practically gives the government free money, as well as the control over its money supply. Bitcoins, and everything about them would be a nightmare to deal with for governments. Government sacrifices lots of power by not being able to control the money supply. The stability of the currency weakens when the supply cannot be controlled. There will be pressure to prevent bitcoins from becoming the dominant currency. 6) Actually there's quite a lot more issues, and they aren't easy ones to solve. People are being too optimistic imo. currency trading has always been a thing tho. One of my buddies dads has been a currency trader for the past 30 years and has made plenty of money off of it. Whether it is a smart thing is the question. Did he beat the 30 year stock market average on annual rate of return? How much time did he spend doing so? I'm always extremely skeptical of commodity trading and day trading. There seems to be so much risk and so little means to actually give yourself a true advantage in the long run. Piggy backing on this: everyone keeps saying that bitcoin is going to go only higher and higher...Bitcoin already has passed that $1000 line you really think a currency like this is going to just keep going up and up? It is going to crash sooner or later. Hard (it won't bounce back to what it was previously down in the future). The bubble is there and it will burst. Back when bitcoins were kinda young then yes they would be a pretty sound investment. An underground currency that bypasses lot of security and watchdogs. Currency that has digital properties (strong, secure). Now the current stage the bitcoins are at make them quite risky. IMO the market for them is no different than the penny stock market...and everyone knows about that hell I know better than to argue with someone who speaks in absolutes on something that he literally 100% cannot prove lol. Seriously every1 is entitled to their opinion or view on the matter, but stating matter of factly what is going to happen, is your best guess, as much as other people are guessing they become worth more. Will never understand people who make statements like this. Tell me is there a God too? I am sure you have that one nailed. Also on what day will you die o wise seer? And to the guy with the question, currency trading has been his career for the past 30+ years. Last time I talked to him he had just gotten back from his vacation in Dubai. I didn't mean to come off pretentious as I was simply trying to raise an argument and want people to argue otherwise. I don't see any other reason to believe otherwise as this (bitcoin) is not some different entity that is immune to a bubble burst. Rule of thumb is if something hits the media hard then generally speaking you are too late to the party to reap large amount of rewards for little risk. Yes, people will spend money which I am fine as some like to live dangerously. But I don't understand why people are going to go out and invest a large sum (that is outside of their comfort zone) into something that is now extremely volatile (with the recent media attention) and risky. My ears are open to anyone that can raise a good argument and be CIVIL about it. Because we are past this argument. We don't need to explain to each newcomer in this thread why it is so. The arguments have been raised again and again. Each burst bubble make the bitcoin stronger. The more the bitcoins are distributed to a bigger number of people the better. If the bubble burst, it makes it stronger, and like the phoenix rises from its ashes, the bitcoin reach a new high with higher degree of confidence. The price of the bitcoin is a collective agreement that it is worth that much. If you think it's worth less and you have none, your opinion is irrelevant. If you have bitcoins and think they are worth less, sell them. If you have bitcoin and have no idea about anything, wait and see but don't keep 99% of your saving on it and be ready to have that value divided time to time by 4. When a real bubble burst, the confidence is lost for long, but what is happening at each miniburst is that a very small proportion of the bitcoin possessors have panicked. Another strange effect is that the Bitcoin is best used as a money, so people are likely to keep them while the services appears to avoid conversion fees. Now, if you sell all your bitcoin, you end up paying huge profit taxes depending where you live. That's the whole problem of bitcoin. It is a currency that cannot be used as a currency, because everybody is using it to speculate. How many people in this thread have actually USED a bitcoin to buy a pizza (or anything else)... and same question but limited to the last half a year or so. How do you even decide on the value of a pizza in bitcoins when the value, when compared to the USD, fluctuates so wildly. Hell, the Zimbabwe Dollar has more use as a currency than the bitcoin at the moment. At least you know that is only going to go down in the near future, so you'd best spend it all ASAP. But the thing is that you start to have facilitators, that you didn't have 6 months ago and thing are moving fast. The thing is that you don't need the store to accept bitcoins if a company in between is doing the payment. Currently, if I want to buy something with my bitcoins, I takes me 24 hours but I'd love to pay straight away with bitcoin. I can already pay my dentist in BitCoin. This empty box effect is true, it is hard to deal in Bitcoin but that's why we need a huge amount of speculator as the mass and the confidence rise, the price has to stabilize. One of the most obvious application for bitcoin will be digital purchase of software. Anyway I am fascinated where this is all going, as you can assume that the services will be coming, and the amount of place accepting coins will rise.
I agree on the facilitators. They are slowly coming. But there is one major problem, and that is the stability. There is no central authority who has the least bit of interest in keeping the currency stable. As a comparison, look at the Swiss Franc.
I don't know whether it's still the case, but about 3 years ago when the shit hit the fan in Greece, and the USD wasn't looking too hot either, investors massively started buying up Swiss Francs. This caused the price of franks to skyrocket. That seems great, but it meant that suddenly Swiss export products went from exclusive and expensive, to so ridiculously expensive that nobody wanted to buy anymore. Read a few effects here:
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business/Currency_value_-_cause_and_effects.html?cid=34224468
Tourism down, local retailers going out of business, etc. etc.
Until the Swiss government stepped in and the state bank capped the value of the Franc at 1,20 euro. Trade can cause it to drop, but the government buys Euros automatically to adjust any upward movement to keep it capped at 1,20 euro.
That is just one way the government has to regulate the currency and keep it stable. But some central authority with a vested interest in keeping it stable seems necessary for a currency to be used as money, rather than a tool for investment.
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I have an idea for a bitcoin website. I had it for months but I miss some time and mostly web programming skills. If someone wants in let me know, I have some capital to start up.
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EPT
