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So, what happens when somebody loses their bitcoin wallet? Since these coin hashes can be stored locally, and there can be drive failures and whatnot, can't bitcoins just plain disappear from circulation forever? Wouldn't this eventually cause a problem with the finite supply of bitcoins?
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On December 03 2013 23:45 0x64 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 23:36 Chrono000 wrote:
just bite the bullet and buy a little bitcoin. u will learn way more from using it then from sitting here using your little brain thinking why it wouldnt work.
you will also sit and grain, money will roll right in. Hah that was my advice to all my friend when the coin was at 60$, "I will never tell that bitcoins are a good investment, but by one so you can tell you are part of the history if that happen" One of my friend listened and bough 4.
your adventurous friend with 4btc must be laughing.
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On December 04 2013 01:52 aksfjh wrote:
So, what happens when somebody loses their bitcoin wallet? Since these coin hashes can be stored locally, and there can be drive failures and whatnot, can't bitcoins just plain disappear from circulation forever? Wouldn't this eventually cause a problem with the finite supply of bitcoins?
if u go back in the thread (which i know is a pain) u will know bitcoin can not be destroyed. the bitcoin ledger is always being updated and its tracking where all bitcoins are (hence miners). u can find many bitcoins locked forever more in wallets. these locked bitcoins are there because people forgot to record their secret keys. cracking a bitcoin key is so impossible its beautiful.
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On December 04 2013 01:52 aksfjh wrote:
So, what happens when somebody loses their bitcoin wallet? Since these coin hashes can be stored locally, and there can be drive failures and whatnot, can't bitcoins just plain disappear from circulation forever? Wouldn't this eventually cause a problem with the finite supply of bitcoins?
The finite supply of bitcoins is more a theoretical problem than anything. The limit is 21million, and each bitcoin can be divided into 100.000.000 parts. Additionally the FAQ says that if necessary it can be divided further (not sure what the theoretical limits are). That means that the initial limit is at 2.1quadrillion indivisible units.
As a comparison, there are currently about 1.22trillion USD in circulation. The indivisible unit isn't a dollar, but a penny, so that makes it 122trillion pennies (or indivisible units of US currency) in circulation.
In other words, there are an order of magnitude more bitcoin "pennies" than there are USD pennies... and the FAQ says that it can be split even further.
So if the time comes that so many bitcoins are lost that even bitcoin pennies are too much to pay for small goods, they can divide it further.
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On December 04 2013 02:00 Chrono000 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 01:52 aksfjh wrote:
So, what happens when somebody loses their bitcoin wallet? Since these coin hashes can be stored locally, and there can be drive failures and whatnot, can't bitcoins just plain disappear from circulation forever? Wouldn't this eventually cause a problem with the finite supply of bitcoins? if u go back in the thread (which i know is a pain) u will know bitcoin can not be destroyed. the bitcoin ledger is always being updated and its tracking where all bitcoins are (hence miners). u can find many bitcoins locked forever more in wallets. these locked bitcoins are there because people forgot to record their secret keys. cracking a bitcoin key is so impossible its beautiful.
That's about as useful as saying that when you flush your wallet down the toilet it isn't destroyed, just locked forever in the sewers. For all intents and purposes those bitcoins are lost/destroyed.
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On December 04 2013 02:05 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 02:00 Chrono000 wrote:On December 04 2013 01:52 aksfjh wrote:
So, what happens when somebody loses their bitcoin wallet? Since these coin hashes can be stored locally, and there can be drive failures and whatnot, can't bitcoins just plain disappear from circulation forever? Wouldn't this eventually cause a problem with the finite supply of bitcoins? if u go back in the thread (which i know is a pain) u will know bitcoin can not be destroyed. the bitcoin ledger is always being updated and its tracking where all bitcoins are (hence miners). u can find many bitcoins locked forever more in wallets. these locked bitcoins are there because people forgot to record their secret keys. cracking a bitcoin key is so impossible its beautiful. That's about as useful as saying that when you flush your wallet down the toilet it isn't destroyed, just locked forever in the sewers. For all intents and purposes those bitcoins are lost/destroyed.
give me a break u nerd it feels different.
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On December 04 2013 02:02 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 01:52 aksfjh wrote:
So, what happens when somebody loses their bitcoin wallet? Since these coin hashes can be stored locally, and there can be drive failures and whatnot, can't bitcoins just plain disappear from circulation forever? Wouldn't this eventually cause a problem with the finite supply of bitcoins? The finite supply of bitcoins is more a theoretical problem than anything. The limit is 21million, and each bitcoin can be divided into 100.000.000 parts. Additionally the FAQ says that if necessary it can be divided further (not sure what the theoretical limits are). That means that the initial limit is at 2.1quadrillion indivisible units. As a comparison, there are currently about 1.22trillion USD in circulation. The indivisible unit isn't a dollar, but a penny, so that makes it 122trillion pennies (or indivisible units of US currency) in circulation. In other words, there are an order of magnitude more bitcoin "pennies" than there are USD pennies... and the FAQ says that it can be split even further. So if the time comes that so many bitcoins are lost that even bitcoin pennies are too much to pay for small goods, they can divide it further.
While that's true, it still presents further conundrum that the true supply of bitcoins will always be decreasing. It's bad enough that the userbase increases over time compared to a stagnant supply of bitcoins. You can subdivide the coins all you want, but with a currency that will always go up in value by simply holding onto it, it's going to create a great deal of instability.
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On December 04 2013 02:05 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 02:00 Chrono000 wrote:On December 04 2013 01:52 aksfjh wrote:
So, what happens when somebody loses their bitcoin wallet? Since these coin hashes can be stored locally, and there can be drive failures and whatnot, can't bitcoins just plain disappear from circulation forever? Wouldn't this eventually cause a problem with the finite supply of bitcoins? if u go back in the thread (which i know is a pain) u will know bitcoin can not be destroyed. the bitcoin ledger is always being updated and its tracking where all bitcoins are (hence miners). u can find many bitcoins locked forever more in wallets. these locked bitcoins are there because people forgot to record their secret keys. cracking a bitcoin key is so impossible its beautiful. That's about as useful as saying that when you flush your wallet down the toilet it isn't destroyed, just locked forever in the sewers. For all intents and purposes those bitcoins are lost/destroyed.
Lol, that's a pretty hilarious analogy.
And mostly true. Yes, the currency is going to be inherently deflationary since people are going to lose access to wallets and what not, basically making it so that those coins are lost FOREVER.
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On December 04 2013 04:24 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 02:02 Acrofales wrote:On December 04 2013 01:52 aksfjh wrote:
So, what happens when somebody loses their bitcoin wallet? Since these coin hashes can be stored locally, and there can be drive failures and whatnot, can't bitcoins just plain disappear from circulation forever? Wouldn't this eventually cause a problem with the finite supply of bitcoins? The finite supply of bitcoins is more a theoretical problem than anything. The limit is 21million, and each bitcoin can be divided into 100.000.000 parts. Additionally the FAQ says that if necessary it can be divided further (not sure what the theoretical limits are). That means that the initial limit is at 2.1quadrillion indivisible units. As a comparison, there are currently about 1.22trillion USD in circulation. The indivisible unit isn't a dollar, but a penny, so that makes it 122trillion pennies (or indivisible units of US currency) in circulation. In other words, there are an order of magnitude more bitcoin "pennies" than there are USD pennies... and the FAQ says that it can be split even further. So if the time comes that so many bitcoins are lost that even bitcoin pennies are too much to pay for small goods, they can divide it further. While that's true, it still presents further conundrum that the true supply of bitcoins will always be decreasing. It's bad enough that the userbase increases over time compared to a stagnant supply of bitcoins. You can subdivide the coins all you want, but with a currency that will always go up in value by simply holding onto it, it's going to create a great deal of instability.
Yeah, this is true, but I think we are talking about too long a timeframe for it to really matter much.
Then again, nobody knows at what rate bitcoins are going to be lost. If it turns out people are really fucking careless about their wallets, this could become a real problem.
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On December 03 2013 23:27 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 23:21 0x64 wrote:On December 03 2013 23:08 heroyi wrote:On December 03 2013 14:32 MaestroSC wrote:On December 03 2013 13:19 heroyi wrote:On December 03 2013 12:31 calgar wrote:On December 03 2013 11:07 MaestroSC wrote:On December 03 2013 09:09 FiWiFaKi wrote:On December 03 2013 07:43 MaestroSC wrote:On December 03 2013 06:49 FiWiFaKi wrote:
[quote]
Just because our current system is not perfect doesn't mean this new system would be better. Right now most people still look at BTC not because it has potential to be a currency, but because they heard that people were getting rich off of it. Just like how this thread explodes when the price goes up - but nobody comments when the price is constant (which is what the currency needs).
imo what it needs more than anything is an implemented system of dividing bitcoins into smaller units... A lot of people are now using millibits, but we need something that every1 can work in/deal with... Because saying "You need 1000 for 1 bitcoin" a 90% of the population goes "wtf i dont have 1000 for only one" and they assume that bitcoins are like pennys and cannot be split. Which is not the case at all. Exchanges need to start trading formally in smaller units so that newcomers arent so afraid/hesitant. A lot of newcomers dont understand that you can spend 1/1000th of a coin. also idk how i feel about true stability... the potential of being an investment is the draw for some users... Imagine having a checking account where you can buy any/everything you want out of it.. while still investing. Imagine if you could throw $50,000 in the stock market while still being able to buy stuff with your money currently in the market. IDK tho cause i know the stock market also = risk, similar to bitcoins. But if bitcoins were somewhat stable, this reality wouldnt be too far-fetched i guess. You need to stop thinking about the BTC as an investment... For the BTC to be used as a currency, people need to treat it as a currency. Just like if you trade USD to Euro you aren't thinking you are invest money, you are just using a different medium of exchange. If we are under the impression that the goal of the BTC is to create a virtual currency, it cannot be a stock market. I will list my biggest issues with bitcoin right now: 1) If fractional reserve banking is used (which it must if it is to be a viable currency), it is a lot more likely that if there is no government backing of the bitcoin that if there is a change in price many people will try to cash their bitcoins, and the banks will not have enough money. Then you get bank runs, and it's good game. Don't really see how this is preventable. 2) Deflation. Coins can be easily lost, hoarding will be an issue as long as another currency exists. No human behavior will be able to offset all the deflation of bitcoins. Deflation leads to many bad things: wages, reduce spending (slows economy). 3) No fees is totally bullshit. Check the exchanges, they have fees, actually very high fees, I don't know why people keep trying to advertise no fees. I have no fees using my visa, I get fees using bitcoins. Check here: https://www.mtgox.com/fee-schedule.... It will actually be just like paper money in that regard, there will still be a banking system. There will always be a banking system with the same mechanic as you have now. I'm uncertain why people think this wouldn't be the case? 4) The markets for trading suck. Unlike currency exchange where it's much easier to keep it secure, the bit-coin markets must constantly keep up with technology to prevent any breaches, I honestly don't trust a privately run company to be able to do that. Geez Mtgox can't even convert many peoples' money to USD within 2 months. You just need government regulation to make it safe, but that defeats the purpose. Why do you think the price varies so wildly between exchanges? LOTS of fees and trouble converting to cash. 5) Bitcoins are very bad for the government. When there is a 2% inflation rate and the government prints the money to maintain the inflation rate at 2%... It practically gives the government free money, as well as the control over its money supply. Bitcoins, and everything about them would be a nightmare to deal with for governments. Government sacrifices lots of power by not being able to control the money supply. The stability of the currency weakens when the supply cannot be controlled. There will be pressure to prevent bitcoins from becoming the dominant currency. 6) Actually there's quite a lot more issues, and they aren't easy ones to solve. People are being too optimistic imo. currency trading has always been a thing tho. One of my buddies dads has been a currency trader for the past 30 years and has made plenty of money off of it. Whether it is a smart thing is the question. Did he beat the 30 year stock market average on annual rate of return? How much time did he spend doing so? I'm always extremely skeptical of commodity trading and day trading. There seems to be so much risk and so little means to actually give yourself a true advantage in the long run. Piggy backing on this: everyone keeps saying that bitcoin is going to go only higher and higher...Bitcoin already has passed that $1000 line you really think a currency like this is going to just keep going up and up? It is going to crash sooner or later. Hard (it won't bounce back to what it was previously down in the future). The bubble is there and it will burst. Back when bitcoins were kinda young then yes they would be a pretty sound investment. An underground currency that bypasses lot of security and watchdogs. Currency that has digital properties (strong, secure). Now the current stage the bitcoins are at make them quite risky. IMO the market for them is no different than the penny stock market...and everyone knows about that hell I know better than to argue with someone who speaks in absolutes on something that he literally 100% cannot prove lol. Seriously every1 is entitled to their opinion or view on the matter, but stating matter of factly what is going to happen, is your best guess, as much as other people are guessing they become worth more. Will never understand people who make statements like this. Tell me is there a God too? I am sure you have that one nailed. Also on what day will you die o wise seer? And to the guy with the question, currency trading has been his career for the past 30+ years. Last time I talked to him he had just gotten back from his vacation in Dubai. I didn't mean to come off pretentious as I was simply trying to raise an argument and want people to argue otherwise. I don't see any other reason to believe otherwise as this (bitcoin) is not some different entity that is immune to a bubble burst. Rule of thumb is if something hits the media hard then generally speaking you are too late to the party to reap large amount of rewards for little risk. Yes, people will spend money which I am fine as some like to live dangerously. But I don't understand why people are going to go out and invest a large sum (that is outside of their comfort zone) into something that is now extremely volatile (with the recent media attention) and risky. My ears are open to anyone that can raise a good argument and be CIVIL about it. Because we are past this argument. We don't need to explain to each newcomer in this thread why it is so. The arguments have been raised again and again. Each burst bubble make the bitcoin stronger. The more the bitcoins are distributed to a bigger number of people the better. If the bubble burst, it makes it stronger, and like the phoenix rises from its ashes, the bitcoin reach a new high with higher degree of confidence. The price of the bitcoin is a collective agreement that it is worth that much. If you think it's worth less and you have none, your opinion is irrelevant. If you have bitcoins and think they are worth less, sell them. If you have bitcoin and have no idea about anything, wait and see but don't keep 99% of your saving on it and be ready to have that value divided time to time by 4. When a real bubble burst, the confidence is lost for long, but what is happening at each miniburst is that a very small proportion of the bitcoin possessors have panicked. Another strange effect is that the Bitcoin is best used as a money, so people are likely to keep them while the services appears to avoid conversion fees. Now, if you sell all your bitcoin, you end up paying huge profit taxes depending where you live. That's the whole problem of bitcoin. It is a currency that cannot be used as a currency, because everybody is using it to speculate. How many people in this thread have actually USED a bitcoin to buy a pizza (or anything else)... and same question but limited to the last half a year or so. How do you even decide on the value of a pizza in bitcoins when the value, when compared to the USD, fluctuates so wildly. Hell, the Zimbabwe Dollar has more use as a currency than the bitcoin at the moment. At least you know that is only going to go down in the near future, so you'd best spend it all ASAP.
This is one of the things people dont understand about bitcoins. The value of bitcoin fluctuates...which is why services that allow you to sell things and have them purchased via bitcoin... also offer a service that automatically updates its prices everytime someone buys in bitcoins.
IE if you want a $20 shirt... u click "buy in bitcoins" and the service automatically looks up what Bitcoins are valued at the present time, and charges you whatever % of a bitcoin = $20. And also the service will then take the bitcoin and give you that amount in either USD or Bitcoin, whichever you prefer to personally receive/hold.
You dont have to update your prices or worry about overpaying, as the prices are able to be updated instantly, hence the appeal of these services.
You havent done much research on bitcoin. The biggest hurdle bitcoin faces is people who are uninformed, claiming to know about bitcoins and how they operate, and spreading incorrect information.
And people losing their bitcoins doesnt devalue your bitcoins... if anything it causes your bitcoin to be worth more. I dont know if you are aware... but you can deal in .5 bitcoins and such... you cant only deal in whole coins. This is why bitcoins have their high value, because there is a limited number of them available to the world, which means as the market for bitcoins grow, bitcoins become worth more, especially as people begin to lose their bitcoins.
Bitcoins are already able to be split down to the 8th decimal place, and the code has been written in a way that this can be changed in the future if necessary.
And while you, Acrofales think that people should sell their bitcoins asap, there are hundreds of thousands of people who disagree with you. If you want to go to nearly ANY financial information site/magazine/etc there are thousands of "experts" whose opinions vary from "its goint to crash" to "these are going to be worth 100,000,000 a coin one day."
So I dont understand how, if the financial experts from Forbes arent 100% sure on the future of the bitcoin, that you are so sure.
But maybe its cause I havent seen your time machine yet.
I dont know whats going to happen either, which is why you wont read me saying "SELL IT ALL!" or "INVEST YOUR ENTIRE WORTH INTO BITCOINS".
My guess after doing nonstop research over the past couple weeks, is that this is only the beginning.
I invite you to visit R/bitcoin (tho its obv a bit bias towards the success of bitcoins) or r/bitcoinmarkets where there are 100s of articles being posted every hour full of information to read. (and by articles I mean written by our financial giants/advisors of today from sites like Forbes)
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On December 04 2013 05:06 MaestroSC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 23:27 Acrofales wrote:On December 03 2013 23:21 0x64 wrote:On December 03 2013 23:08 heroyi wrote:On December 03 2013 14:32 MaestroSC wrote:On December 03 2013 13:19 heroyi wrote:On December 03 2013 12:31 calgar wrote:On December 03 2013 11:07 MaestroSC wrote:On December 03 2013 09:09 FiWiFaKi wrote:On December 03 2013 07:43 MaestroSC wrote:
[quote]
imo what it needs more than anything is an implemented system of dividing bitcoins into smaller units...
A lot of people are now using millibits, but we need something that every1 can work in/deal with... Because saying "You need 1000 for 1 bitcoin" a 90% of the population goes "wtf i dont have 1000 for only one" and they assume that bitcoins are like pennys and cannot be split. Which is not the case at all.
Exchanges need to start trading formally in smaller units so that newcomers arent so afraid/hesitant. A lot of newcomers dont understand that you can spend 1/1000th of a coin.
also idk how i feel about true stability... the potential of being an investment is the draw for some users... Imagine having a checking account where you can buy any/everything you want out of it.. while still investing. Imagine if you could throw $50,000 in the stock market while still being able to buy stuff with your money currently in the market.
IDK tho cause i know the stock market also = risk, similar to bitcoins. But if bitcoins were somewhat stable, this reality wouldnt be too far-fetched i guess.
You need to stop thinking about the BTC as an investment... For the BTC to be used as a currency, people need to treat it as a currency. Just like if you trade USD to Euro you aren't thinking you are invest money, you are just using a different medium of exchange. If we are under the impression that the goal of the BTC is to create a virtual currency, it cannot be a stock market. I will list my biggest issues with bitcoin right now: 1) If fractional reserve banking is used (which it must if it is to be a viable currency), it is a lot more likely that if there is no government backing of the bitcoin that if there is a change in price many people will try to cash their bitcoins, and the banks will not have enough money. Then you get bank runs, and it's good game. Don't really see how this is preventable. 2) Deflation. Coins can be easily lost, hoarding will be an issue as long as another currency exists. No human behavior will be able to offset all the deflation of bitcoins. Deflation leads to many bad things: wages, reduce spending (slows economy). 3) No fees is totally bullshit. Check the exchanges, they have fees, actually very high fees, I don't know why people keep trying to advertise no fees. I have no fees using my visa, I get fees using bitcoins. Check here: https://www.mtgox.com/fee-schedule.... It will actually be just like paper money in that regard, there will still be a banking system. There will always be a banking system with the same mechanic as you have now. I'm uncertain why people think this wouldn't be the case? 4) The markets for trading suck. Unlike currency exchange where it's much easier to keep it secure, the bit-coin markets must constantly keep up with technology to prevent any breaches, I honestly don't trust a privately run company to be able to do that. Geez Mtgox can't even convert many peoples' money to USD within 2 months. You just need government regulation to make it safe, but that defeats the purpose. Why do you think the price varies so wildly between exchanges? LOTS of fees and trouble converting to cash. 5) Bitcoins are very bad for the government. When there is a 2% inflation rate and the government prints the money to maintain the inflation rate at 2%... It practically gives the government free money, as well as the control over its money supply. Bitcoins, and everything about them would be a nightmare to deal with for governments. Government sacrifices lots of power by not being able to control the money supply. The stability of the currency weakens when the supply cannot be controlled. There will be pressure to prevent bitcoins from becoming the dominant currency. 6) Actually there's quite a lot more issues, and they aren't easy ones to solve. People are being too optimistic imo. currency trading has always been a thing tho. One of my buddies dads has been a currency trader for the past 30 years and has made plenty of money off of it. Whether it is a smart thing is the question. Did he beat the 30 year stock market average on annual rate of return? How much time did he spend doing so? I'm always extremely skeptical of commodity trading and day trading. There seems to be so much risk and so little means to actually give yourself a true advantage in the long run. Piggy backing on this: everyone keeps saying that bitcoin is going to go only higher and higher...Bitcoin already has passed that $1000 line you really think a currency like this is going to just keep going up and up? It is going to crash sooner or later. Hard (it won't bounce back to what it was previously down in the future). The bubble is there and it will burst. Back when bitcoins were kinda young then yes they would be a pretty sound investment. An underground currency that bypasses lot of security and watchdogs. Currency that has digital properties (strong, secure). Now the current stage the bitcoins are at make them quite risky. IMO the market for them is no different than the penny stock market...and everyone knows about that hell I know better than to argue with someone who speaks in absolutes on something that he literally 100% cannot prove lol. Seriously every1 is entitled to their opinion or view on the matter, but stating matter of factly what is going to happen, is your best guess, as much as other people are guessing they become worth more. Will never understand people who make statements like this. Tell me is there a God too? I am sure you have that one nailed. Also on what day will you die o wise seer? And to the guy with the question, currency trading has been his career for the past 30+ years. Last time I talked to him he had just gotten back from his vacation in Dubai. I didn't mean to come off pretentious as I was simply trying to raise an argument and want people to argue otherwise. I don't see any other reason to believe otherwise as this (bitcoin) is not some different entity that is immune to a bubble burst. Rule of thumb is if something hits the media hard then generally speaking you are too late to the party to reap large amount of rewards for little risk. Yes, people will spend money which I am fine as some like to live dangerously. But I don't understand why people are going to go out and invest a large sum (that is outside of their comfort zone) into something that is now extremely volatile (with the recent media attention) and risky. My ears are open to anyone that can raise a good argument and be CIVIL about it. Because we are past this argument. We don't need to explain to each newcomer in this thread why it is so. The arguments have been raised again and again. Each burst bubble make the bitcoin stronger. The more the bitcoins are distributed to a bigger number of people the better. If the bubble burst, it makes it stronger, and like the phoenix rises from its ashes, the bitcoin reach a new high with higher degree of confidence. The price of the bitcoin is a collective agreement that it is worth that much. If you think it's worth less and you have none, your opinion is irrelevant. If you have bitcoins and think they are worth less, sell them. If you have bitcoin and have no idea about anything, wait and see but don't keep 99% of your saving on it and be ready to have that value divided time to time by 4. When a real bubble burst, the confidence is lost for long, but what is happening at each miniburst is that a very small proportion of the bitcoin possessors have panicked. Another strange effect is that the Bitcoin is best used as a money, so people are likely to keep them while the services appears to avoid conversion fees. Now, if you sell all your bitcoin, you end up paying huge profit taxes depending where you live. That's the whole problem of bitcoin. It is a currency that cannot be used as a currency, because everybody is using it to speculate. How many people in this thread have actually USED a bitcoin to buy a pizza (or anything else)... and same question but limited to the last half a year or so. How do you even decide on the value of a pizza in bitcoins when the value, when compared to the USD, fluctuates so wildly. Hell, the Zimbabwe Dollar has more use as a currency than the bitcoin at the moment. At least you know that is only going to go down in the near future, so you'd best spend it all ASAP. This is one of the things people dont understand about bitcoins. The value of bitcoin fluctuates...which is why services that allow you to sell things and have them purchased via bitcoin... also offer a service that automatically updates its prices everytime someone buys in bitcoins. IE if you want a $20 shirt... u click "buy in bitcoins" and the service automatically looks up what Bitcoins are valued at the present time, and charges you whatever % of a bitcoin = $20. And also the service will then take the bitcoin and give you that amount in either USD or Bitcoin, whichever you prefer to personally receive/hold. You dont have to update your prices or worry about overpaying, as the prices are able to be updated instantly, hence the appeal of these services. You havent done much research on bitcoin. The biggest hurdle bitcoin faces is people who are uninformed, claiming to know about bitcoins and how they operate, and spreading incorrect information.
Well, then you aren't paying in bitcoins. You're paying in USD. You just happen to be using bitcoins as your method of transaction.
It's the same as if I were to buy something on amazon.com using my Brazilian credit card. It will use some exchange rate that is decided by Mastercard, Visa, or some other creditcard company, based on average exchange rates at banks and other financial institutions. I pay in BRL, but the price is decided in USD. If my BRL suddenly doubles in value, in comparison to the USD, then suddenly everything is cheaper for me with my BRL.
This is the same with bitcoins.
However, bitcoins as an accepted currency would be like me going to the local supermarket and buying stuff with BRL. If the BRL suddenly doubles in value compared to the USD, bread will still cost me the exact same number of BRL. Maybe in the long term imported things will lower in price, but short term, the relative value of BRL to USD will make NO difference at all to me.
In bitcoins this would mean that I run a pizzeria and sell my pizzas for 0.02 bitcoins, pretty much regardless of the exchange rate.
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On December 04 2013 05:13 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 05:06 MaestroSC wrote:On December 03 2013 23:27 Acrofales wrote:On December 03 2013 23:21 0x64 wrote:On December 03 2013 23:08 heroyi wrote:On December 03 2013 14:32 MaestroSC wrote:On December 03 2013 13:19 heroyi wrote:On December 03 2013 12:31 calgar wrote:On December 03 2013 11:07 MaestroSC wrote:On December 03 2013 09:09 FiWiFaKi wrote:[quote] You need to stop thinking about the BTC as an investment... For the BTC to be used as a currency, people need to treat it as a currency. Just like if you trade USD to Euro you aren't thinking you are invest money, you are just using a different medium of exchange. If we are under the impression that the goal of the BTC is to create a virtual currency, it cannot be a stock market. I will list my biggest issues with bitcoin right now: 1) If fractional reserve banking is used (which it must if it is to be a viable currency), it is a lot more likely that if there is no government backing of the bitcoin that if there is a change in price many people will try to cash their bitcoins, and the banks will not have enough money. Then you get bank runs, and it's good game. Don't really see how this is preventable. 2) Deflation. Coins can be easily lost, hoarding will be an issue as long as another currency exists. No human behavior will be able to offset all the deflation of bitcoins. Deflation leads to many bad things: wages, reduce spending (slows economy). 3) No fees is totally bullshit. Check the exchanges, they have fees, actually very high fees, I don't know why people keep trying to advertise no fees. I have no fees using my visa, I get fees using bitcoins. Check here: https://www.mtgox.com/fee-schedule.... It will actually be just like paper money in that regard, there will still be a banking system. There will always be a banking system with the same mechanic as you have now. I'm uncertain why people think this wouldn't be the case? 4) The markets for trading suck. Unlike currency exchange where it's much easier to keep it secure, the bit-coin markets must constantly keep up with technology to prevent any breaches, I honestly don't trust a privately run company to be able to do that. Geez Mtgox can't even convert many peoples' money to USD within 2 months. You just need government regulation to make it safe, but that defeats the purpose. Why do you think the price varies so wildly between exchanges? LOTS of fees and trouble converting to cash. 5) Bitcoins are very bad for the government. When there is a 2% inflation rate and the government prints the money to maintain the inflation rate at 2%... It practically gives the government free money, as well as the control over its money supply. Bitcoins, and everything about them would be a nightmare to deal with for governments. Government sacrifices lots of power by not being able to control the money supply. The stability of the currency weakens when the supply cannot be controlled. There will be pressure to prevent bitcoins from becoming the dominant currency. 6) Actually there's quite a lot more issues, and they aren't easy ones to solve. People are being too optimistic imo. currency trading has always been a thing tho. One of my buddies dads has been a currency trader for the past 30 years and has made plenty of money off of it. Whether it is a smart thing is the question. Did he beat the 30 year stock market average on annual rate of return? How much time did he spend doing so? I'm always extremely skeptical of commodity trading and day trading. There seems to be so much risk and so little means to actually give yourself a true advantage in the long run. Piggy backing on this: everyone keeps saying that bitcoin is going to go only higher and higher...Bitcoin already has passed that $1000 line you really think a currency like this is going to just keep going up and up? It is going to crash sooner or later. Hard (it won't bounce back to what it was previously down in the future). The bubble is there and it will burst. Back when bitcoins were kinda young then yes they would be a pretty sound investment. An underground currency that bypasses lot of security and watchdogs. Currency that has digital properties (strong, secure). Now the current stage the bitcoins are at make them quite risky. IMO the market for them is no different than the penny stock market...and everyone knows about that hell I know better than to argue with someone who speaks in absolutes on something that he literally 100% cannot prove lol. Seriously every1 is entitled to their opinion or view on the matter, but stating matter of factly what is going to happen, is your best guess, as much as other people are guessing they become worth more. Will never understand people who make statements like this. Tell me is there a God too? I am sure you have that one nailed. Also on what day will you die o wise seer? And to the guy with the question, currency trading has been his career for the past 30+ years. Last time I talked to him he had just gotten back from his vacation in Dubai. I didn't mean to come off pretentious as I was simply trying to raise an argument and want people to argue otherwise. I don't see any other reason to believe otherwise as this (bitcoin) is not some different entity that is immune to a bubble burst. Rule of thumb is if something hits the media hard then generally speaking you are too late to the party to reap large amount of rewards for little risk. Yes, people will spend money which I am fine as some like to live dangerously. But I don't understand why people are going to go out and invest a large sum (that is outside of their comfort zone) into something that is now extremely volatile (with the recent media attention) and risky. My ears are open to anyone that can raise a good argument and be CIVIL about it. Because we are past this argument. We don't need to explain to each newcomer in this thread why it is so. The arguments have been raised again and again. Each burst bubble make the bitcoin stronger. The more the bitcoins are distributed to a bigger number of people the better. If the bubble burst, it makes it stronger, and like the phoenix rises from its ashes, the bitcoin reach a new high with higher degree of confidence. The price of the bitcoin is a collective agreement that it is worth that much. If you think it's worth less and you have none, your opinion is irrelevant. If you have bitcoins and think they are worth less, sell them. If you have bitcoin and have no idea about anything, wait and see but don't keep 99% of your saving on it and be ready to have that value divided time to time by 4. When a real bubble burst, the confidence is lost for long, but what is happening at each miniburst is that a very small proportion of the bitcoin possessors have panicked. Another strange effect is that the Bitcoin is best used as a money, so people are likely to keep them while the services appears to avoid conversion fees. Now, if you sell all your bitcoin, you end up paying huge profit taxes depending where you live. That's the whole problem of bitcoin. It is a currency that cannot be used as a currency, because everybody is using it to speculate. How many people in this thread have actually USED a bitcoin to buy a pizza (or anything else)... and same question but limited to the last half a year or so. How do you even decide on the value of a pizza in bitcoins when the value, when compared to the USD, fluctuates so wildly. Hell, the Zimbabwe Dollar has more use as a currency than the bitcoin at the moment. At least you know that is only going to go down in the near future, so you'd best spend it all ASAP. This is one of the things people dont understand about bitcoins. The value of bitcoin fluctuates...which is why services that allow you to sell things and have them purchased via bitcoin... also offer a service that automatically updates its prices everytime someone buys in bitcoins. IE if you want a $20 shirt... u click "buy in bitcoins" and the service automatically looks up what Bitcoins are valued at the present time, and charges you whatever % of a bitcoin = $20. And also the service will then take the bitcoin and give you that amount in either USD or Bitcoin, whichever you prefer to personally receive/hold. You dont have to update your prices or worry about overpaying, as the prices are able to be updated instantly, hence the appeal of these services. You havent done much research on bitcoin. The biggest hurdle bitcoin faces is people who are uninformed, claiming to know about bitcoins and how they operate, and spreading incorrect information. Well, then you aren't paying in bitcoins. You're paying in USD. You just happen to be using bitcoins as your method of transaction. It's the same as if I were to buy something on amazon.com using my Brazilian credit card. It will use some exchange rate that is decided by Mastercard, Visa, or some other creditcard company, based on average exchange rates at banks and other financial institutions. I pay in BRL, but the price is decided in USD. If my BRL suddenly doubles in value, in comparison to the USD, then suddenly everything is cheaper for me with my BRL. This is the same with bitcoins. However, bitcoins as an accepted currency would be like me going to the local supermarket and buying stuff with BRL. If the BRL suddenly doubles in value compared to the USD, bread will still cost me the exact same number of BRL. Maybe in the long term imported things will lower in price, but short term, the relative value of BRL to USD will make NO difference at all to me. In bitcoins this would mean that I run a pizzeria and sell my pizzas for 0.02 bitcoins, pretty much regardless of the exchange rate.
That's where you are wrong. Stubborn and uninform.
If the BRL devaluate to half its value, the value of the bread double that instant. If the shopkeeper doesn't update the price, he is just giving you 50% discount. The value of the bread doesn't change.
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You are BUYING with bitcoins, the merchant is SELLING for USD. Third party bitpay makes the bridge for a fee.
You are right that most people do not understand the difference between Bitcoin : The payment network system and bitcoin : the only currency accepted on this network.
The first is something revolutionnary not very well understood by newcomers. The second one is easier to understand and more easily criticized.
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On December 04 2013 05:13 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 05:06 MaestroSC wrote:On December 03 2013 23:27 Acrofales wrote:On December 03 2013 23:21 0x64 wrote:On December 03 2013 23:08 heroyi wrote:On December 03 2013 14:32 MaestroSC wrote:On December 03 2013 13:19 heroyi wrote:On December 03 2013 12:31 calgar wrote:On December 03 2013 11:07 MaestroSC wrote:On December 03 2013 09:09 FiWiFaKi wrote:[quote] You need to stop thinking about the BTC as an investment... For the BTC to be used as a currency, people need to treat it as a currency. Just like if you trade USD to Euro you aren't thinking you are invest money, you are just using a different medium of exchange. If we are under the impression that the goal of the BTC is to create a virtual currency, it cannot be a stock market. I will list my biggest issues with bitcoin right now: 1) If fractional reserve banking is used (which it must if it is to be a viable currency), it is a lot more likely that if there is no government backing of the bitcoin that if there is a change in price many people will try to cash their bitcoins, and the banks will not have enough money. Then you get bank runs, and it's good game. Don't really see how this is preventable. 2) Deflation. Coins can be easily lost, hoarding will be an issue as long as another currency exists. No human behavior will be able to offset all the deflation of bitcoins. Deflation leads to many bad things: wages, reduce spending (slows economy). 3) No fees is totally bullshit. Check the exchanges, they have fees, actually very high fees, I don't know why people keep trying to advertise no fees. I have no fees using my visa, I get fees using bitcoins. Check here: https://www.mtgox.com/fee-schedule.... It will actually be just like paper money in that regard, there will still be a banking system. There will always be a banking system with the same mechanic as you have now. I'm uncertain why people think this wouldn't be the case? 4) The markets for trading suck. Unlike currency exchange where it's much easier to keep it secure, the bit-coin markets must constantly keep up with technology to prevent any breaches, I honestly don't trust a privately run company to be able to do that. Geez Mtgox can't even convert many peoples' money to USD within 2 months. You just need government regulation to make it safe, but that defeats the purpose. Why do you think the price varies so wildly between exchanges? LOTS of fees and trouble converting to cash. 5) Bitcoins are very bad for the government. When there is a 2% inflation rate and the government prints the money to maintain the inflation rate at 2%... It practically gives the government free money, as well as the control over its money supply. Bitcoins, and everything about them would be a nightmare to deal with for governments. Government sacrifices lots of power by not being able to control the money supply. The stability of the currency weakens when the supply cannot be controlled. There will be pressure to prevent bitcoins from becoming the dominant currency. 6) Actually there's quite a lot more issues, and they aren't easy ones to solve. People are being too optimistic imo. currency trading has always been a thing tho. One of my buddies dads has been a currency trader for the past 30 years and has made plenty of money off of it. Whether it is a smart thing is the question. Did he beat the 30 year stock market average on annual rate of return? How much time did he spend doing so? I'm always extremely skeptical of commodity trading and day trading. There seems to be so much risk and so little means to actually give yourself a true advantage in the long run. Piggy backing on this: everyone keeps saying that bitcoin is going to go only higher and higher...Bitcoin already has passed that $1000 line you really think a currency like this is going to just keep going up and up? It is going to crash sooner or later. Hard (it won't bounce back to what it was previously down in the future). The bubble is there and it will burst. Back when bitcoins were kinda young then yes they would be a pretty sound investment. An underground currency that bypasses lot of security and watchdogs. Currency that has digital properties (strong, secure). Now the current stage the bitcoins are at make them quite risky. IMO the market for them is no different than the penny stock market...and everyone knows about that hell I know better than to argue with someone who speaks in absolutes on something that he literally 100% cannot prove lol. Seriously every1 is entitled to their opinion or view on the matter, but stating matter of factly what is going to happen, is your best guess, as much as other people are guessing they become worth more. Will never understand people who make statements like this. Tell me is there a God too? I am sure you have that one nailed. Also on what day will you die o wise seer? And to the guy with the question, currency trading has been his career for the past 30+ years. Last time I talked to him he had just gotten back from his vacation in Dubai. I didn't mean to come off pretentious as I was simply trying to raise an argument and want people to argue otherwise. I don't see any other reason to believe otherwise as this (bitcoin) is not some different entity that is immune to a bubble burst. Rule of thumb is if something hits the media hard then generally speaking you are too late to the party to reap large amount of rewards for little risk. Yes, people will spend money which I am fine as some like to live dangerously. But I don't understand why people are going to go out and invest a large sum (that is outside of their comfort zone) into something that is now extremely volatile (with the recent media attention) and risky. My ears are open to anyone that can raise a good argument and be CIVIL about it. Because we are past this argument. We don't need to explain to each newcomer in this thread why it is so. The arguments have been raised again and again. Each burst bubble make the bitcoin stronger. The more the bitcoins are distributed to a bigger number of people the better. If the bubble burst, it makes it stronger, and like the phoenix rises from its ashes, the bitcoin reach a new high with higher degree of confidence. The price of the bitcoin is a collective agreement that it is worth that much. If you think it's worth less and you have none, your opinion is irrelevant. If you have bitcoins and think they are worth less, sell them. If you have bitcoin and have no idea about anything, wait and see but don't keep 99% of your saving on it and be ready to have that value divided time to time by 4. When a real bubble burst, the confidence is lost for long, but what is happening at each miniburst is that a very small proportion of the bitcoin possessors have panicked. Another strange effect is that the Bitcoin is best used as a money, so people are likely to keep them while the services appears to avoid conversion fees. Now, if you sell all your bitcoin, you end up paying huge profit taxes depending where you live. That's the whole problem of bitcoin. It is a currency that cannot be used as a currency, because everybody is using it to speculate. How many people in this thread have actually USED a bitcoin to buy a pizza (or anything else)... and same question but limited to the last half a year or so. How do you even decide on the value of a pizza in bitcoins when the value, when compared to the USD, fluctuates so wildly. Hell, the Zimbabwe Dollar has more use as a currency than the bitcoin at the moment. At least you know that is only going to go down in the near future, so you'd best spend it all ASAP. This is one of the things people dont understand about bitcoins. The value of bitcoin fluctuates...which is why services that allow you to sell things and have them purchased via bitcoin... also offer a service that automatically updates its prices everytime someone buys in bitcoins. IE if you want a $20 shirt... u click "buy in bitcoins" and the service automatically looks up what Bitcoins are valued at the present time, and charges you whatever % of a bitcoin = $20. And also the service will then take the bitcoin and give you that amount in either USD or Bitcoin, whichever you prefer to personally receive/hold. You dont have to update your prices or worry about overpaying, as the prices are able to be updated instantly, hence the appeal of these services. You havent done much research on bitcoin. The biggest hurdle bitcoin faces is people who are uninformed, claiming to know about bitcoins and how they operate, and spreading incorrect information. Well, then you aren't paying in bitcoins. You're paying in USD. You just happen to be using bitcoins as your method of transaction. It's the same as if I were to buy something on amazon.com using my Brazilian credit card. It will use some exchange rate that is decided by Mastercard, Visa, or some other creditcard company, based on average exchange rates at banks and other financial institutions. I pay in BRL, but the price is decided in USD. If my BRL suddenly doubles in value, in comparison to the USD, then suddenly everything is cheaper for me with my BRL. This is the same with bitcoins. However, bitcoins as an accepted currency would be like me going to the local supermarket and buying stuff with BRL. If the BRL suddenly doubles in value compared to the USD, bread will still cost me the exact same number of BRL. Maybe in the long term imported things will lower in price, but short term, the relative value of BRL to USD will make NO difference at all to me. In bitcoins this would mean that I run a pizzeria and sell my pizzas for 0.02 bitcoins, pretty much regardless of the exchange rate.
ok. Currencys are always going to have some sort of correlation/relationship with other currencies. There isnt a currency on the planet that does not have worth in some other currency. According to your argument, I can argue that every single purchase made with USD is the same as making that payment in Won or Yen.
One of bitcoins best aspects is its utility/convenience (especially in the future while hundreds of innovations evolving around bitcoin are going on daily).
Transferring 1000 BRL to USD is a pain in the ass and has a large $$ of fees associated with it that arent associated with Bitcoins.
Which is why China has taken such a large interest in Bitcoins (60% of all bitcoins are held by Chinese atm), because of their governments regulations involving transferring their $$ to USD. Its a hassle and has a shitload of expensive fees. Now they can simply buy 10,000 yen (or whatever) of bitcoins, and simply click a button, and now their child has a universal currency equal to 10,000 yen for wherever they are, that they can then use as either a currency, or can convert it to USD or whatever currency they need, without all of the hassle/middlemen. (especially as more places start accepting bitcoin... then exchanging bitcoins for other currency becomes an unnecessary step)
Also your "lost bitcoins" argument applies in that... your BRL will lose value as your country simply prints more and puts it into circulation. Thats why all countries' currencys lose value.. because more is printed and thrown into circulation, devaluing all that is currently in circulation.
Bitcoin has a hardcap, which, once its met there will be no more "printing money" So your bitcoin can only gain value as others are lost. And since its divisible, its impossible for there to ever be a time when there simply isnt enough bitcoins... all it means is that the value of bitcoin goes up, and people start dealing in even smaller decimals of bitcoin.
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On November 30 2013 02:06 pebble444 wrote:
Money doesn' t give you hapiness. You think you can surround yourself with objects and things that will fill your life, thats just not how it works. Certainly it is a useful commodity to have, with money you can buy food, you can buy a home, a car, a state of the art computer, you can buy sex if you want to. It can make your life easier, on basic human needs. After that do, it is pointless. If you base your life around wanting money, all you will get is money. And in itself, at least, in the case of the euro, it doesn' t have any real value anymore. and i quote, if you want to have real success in your life, do what you truly love
Majority of studies show people with more wealth are notably more happier. Money issues / budgeting is also the #1 reported cause of divorce in surveys.
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On December 02 2013 09:35 FiWiFaKi wrote:
I am aware, they are capital gains ): I am in the 39% tax bracket now (lol), and capital gains are taxed at 50%, so that is a 19.5% tax rate, although after tax exemptions, tax-free savings accounts, and other student benefits, it should be a 14-15% tax rate.
How does a tax free savings account help you in this case? You have to claim the earnings before you ever put it into one no? Otherwise they could be like "where'd you get this money from?"
Anyways I have another question for you as I realized you're in Canada :D
Which exchange did you sell your coins on and use to transfer back into your bank account? How difficult was the process?
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On December 04 2013 07:15 Azide wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2013 09:35 FiWiFaKi wrote:
I am aware, they are capital gains ): I am in the 39% tax bracket now (lol), and capital gains are taxed at 50%, so that is a 19.5% tax rate, although after tax exemptions, tax-free savings accounts, and other student benefits, it should be a 14-15% tax rate.
How does a tax free savings account help you in this case? You have to claim the earnings before you ever put it into one no? Otherwise they could be like "where'd you get this money from?" Anyways I have another question for you as I realized you're in Canada :D Which exchange did you sell your coins on and use to transfer back into your bank account? How difficult was the process?
Say you work in a company where you don't get taxed, you just have to do your taxes manually at the end of the year. Say you make 50,000. You can calculate how much you'd be taxed based on simple calculations of how much tax you have to pay from each marginal tax bracket. If you just do it like this, you will have 50k of taxable income, however, each year you can put 5,000 in a tax free savings account, plus any unused portions since you were 18. Since I didn't put any money in my Tax Free Savings account previously, that'd be 10,000 dollars removed from my taxable income. Then obviously the first 125k of taxable income is taxed in a lower tax bracket, and there are also some tax breaks to promote investment from students in Canada that the federal government has put into place. Not major stuff, but an average of a percent or so helps.
I used Mtgox. I was pretty lucky as they have major major back-ups in sending people money, due to limits of what they are allowed to send, and bitcoin bank accounts being closed down... I started reading it after I sold, but I didn't spend too much time reading it as I got my money pretty quickly. I believe the majority of the issues are coming from US citizen and whatever rules the government imposed on them. Hence why their bitcoin prices are completely absurd in other markets. It's rather interesting that most people only talk about mtgox when they only hold 30%~ or so or the monthly trading volume.
Difficulty wise - I spent a good 3 hours doing everything, but that's mainly because I haven't done it before and I didn't want to mess up. Overall the system is pretty swift, everything is straight forward... It's kind of weird how after your transaction is started it takes like an hour for the transaction to actually occur, but yeah, all went well.
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On December 04 2013 05:06 MaestroSC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 23:27 Acrofales wrote:On December 03 2013 23:21 0x64 wrote:On December 03 2013 23:08 heroyi wrote:On December 03 2013 14:32 MaestroSC wrote:On December 03 2013 13:19 heroyi wrote:On December 03 2013 12:31 calgar wrote:On December 03 2013 11:07 MaestroSC wrote:On December 03 2013 09:09 FiWiFaKi wrote:On December 03 2013 07:43 MaestroSC wrote:
[quote]
imo what it needs more than anything is an implemented system of dividing bitcoins into smaller units...
A lot of people are now using millibits, but we need something that every1 can work in/deal with... Because saying "You need 1000 for 1 bitcoin" a 90% of the population goes "wtf i dont have 1000 for only one" and they assume that bitcoins are like pennys and cannot be split. Which is not the case at all.
Exchanges need to start trading formally in smaller units so that newcomers arent so afraid/hesitant. A lot of newcomers dont understand that you can spend 1/1000th of a coin.
also idk how i feel about true stability... the potential of being an investment is the draw for some users... Imagine having a checking account where you can buy any/everything you want out of it.. while still investing. Imagine if you could throw $50,000 in the stock market while still being able to buy stuff with your money currently in the market.
IDK tho cause i know the stock market also = risk, similar to bitcoins. But if bitcoins were somewhat stable, this reality wouldnt be too far-fetched i guess.
You need to stop thinking about the BTC as an investment... For the BTC to be used as a currency, people need to treat it as a currency. Just like if you trade USD to Euro you aren't thinking you are invest money, you are just using a different medium of exchange. If we are under the impression that the goal of the BTC is to create a virtual currency, it cannot be a stock market. I will list my biggest issues with bitcoin right now: 1) If fractional reserve banking is used (which it must if it is to be a viable currency), it is a lot more likely that if there is no government backing of the bitcoin that if there is a change in price many people will try to cash their bitcoins, and the banks will not have enough money. Then you get bank runs, and it's good game. Don't really see how this is preventable. 2) Deflation. Coins can be easily lost, hoarding will be an issue as long as another currency exists. No human behavior will be able to offset all the deflation of bitcoins. Deflation leads to many bad things: wages, reduce spending (slows economy). 3) No fees is totally bullshit. Check the exchanges, they have fees, actually very high fees, I don't know why people keep trying to advertise no fees. I have no fees using my visa, I get fees using bitcoins. Check here: https://www.mtgox.com/fee-schedule.... It will actually be just like paper money in that regard, there will still be a banking system. There will always be a banking system with the same mechanic as you have now. I'm uncertain why people think this wouldn't be the case? 4) The markets for trading suck. Unlike currency exchange where it's much easier to keep it secure, the bit-coin markets must constantly keep up with technology to prevent any breaches, I honestly don't trust a privately run company to be able to do that. Geez Mtgox can't even convert many peoples' money to USD within 2 months. You just need government regulation to make it safe, but that defeats the purpose. Why do you think the price varies so wildly between exchanges? LOTS of fees and trouble converting to cash. 5) Bitcoins are very bad for the government. When there is a 2% inflation rate and the government prints the money to maintain the inflation rate at 2%... It practically gives the government free money, as well as the control over its money supply. Bitcoins, and everything about them would be a nightmare to deal with for governments. Government sacrifices lots of power by not being able to control the money supply. The stability of the currency weakens when the supply cannot be controlled. There will be pressure to prevent bitcoins from becoming the dominant currency. 6) Actually there's quite a lot more issues, and they aren't easy ones to solve. People are being too optimistic imo. currency trading has always been a thing tho. One of my buddies dads has been a currency trader for the past 30 years and has made plenty of money off of it. Whether it is a smart thing is the question. Did he beat the 30 year stock market average on annual rate of return? How much time did he spend doing so? I'm always extremely skeptical of commodity trading and day trading. There seems to be so much risk and so little means to actually give yourself a true advantage in the long run. Piggy backing on this: everyone keeps saying that bitcoin is going to go only higher and higher...Bitcoin already has passed that $1000 line you really think a currency like this is going to just keep going up and up? It is going to crash sooner or later. Hard (it won't bounce back to what it was previously down in the future). The bubble is there and it will burst. Back when bitcoins were kinda young then yes they would be a pretty sound investment. An underground currency that bypasses lot of security and watchdogs. Currency that has digital properties (strong, secure). Now the current stage the bitcoins are at make them quite risky. IMO the market for them is no different than the penny stock market...and everyone knows about that hell I know better than to argue with someone who speaks in absolutes on something that he literally 100% cannot prove lol. Seriously every1 is entitled to their opinion or view on the matter, but stating matter of factly what is going to happen, is your best guess, as much as other people are guessing they become worth more. Will never understand people who make statements like this. Tell me is there a God too? I am sure you have that one nailed. Also on what day will you die o wise seer? And to the guy with the question, currency trading has been his career for the past 30+ years. Last time I talked to him he had just gotten back from his vacation in Dubai. I didn't mean to come off pretentious as I was simply trying to raise an argument and want people to argue otherwise. I don't see any other reason to believe otherwise as this (bitcoin) is not some different entity that is immune to a bubble burst. Rule of thumb is if something hits the media hard then generally speaking you are too late to the party to reap large amount of rewards for little risk. Yes, people will spend money which I am fine as some like to live dangerously. But I don't understand why people are going to go out and invest a large sum (that is outside of their comfort zone) into something that is now extremely volatile (with the recent media attention) and risky. My ears are open to anyone that can raise a good argument and be CIVIL about it. Because we are past this argument. We don't need to explain to each newcomer in this thread why it is so. The arguments have been raised again and again. Each burst bubble make the bitcoin stronger. The more the bitcoins are distributed to a bigger number of people the better. If the bubble burst, it makes it stronger, and like the phoenix rises from its ashes, the bitcoin reach a new high with higher degree of confidence. The price of the bitcoin is a collective agreement that it is worth that much. If you think it's worth less and you have none, your opinion is irrelevant. If you have bitcoins and think they are worth less, sell them. If you have bitcoin and have no idea about anything, wait and see but don't keep 99% of your saving on it and be ready to have that value divided time to time by 4. When a real bubble burst, the confidence is lost for long, but what is happening at each miniburst is that a very small proportion of the bitcoin possessors have panicked. Another strange effect is that the Bitcoin is best used as a money, so people are likely to keep them while the services appears to avoid conversion fees. Now, if you sell all your bitcoin, you end up paying huge profit taxes depending where you live. That's the whole problem of bitcoin. It is a currency that cannot be used as a currency, because everybody is using it to speculate. How many people in this thread have actually USED a bitcoin to buy a pizza (or anything else)... and same question but limited to the last half a year or so. How do you even decide on the value of a pizza in bitcoins when the value, when compared to the USD, fluctuates so wildly. Hell, the Zimbabwe Dollar has more use as a currency than the bitcoin at the moment. At least you know that is only going to go down in the near future, so you'd best spend it all ASAP. This is one of the things people dont understand about bitcoins. The value of bitcoin fluctuates...which is why services that allow you to sell things and have them purchased via bitcoin... also offer a service that automatically updates its prices everytime someone buys in bitcoins. IE if you want a $20 shirt... u click "buy in bitcoins" and the service automatically looks up what Bitcoins are valued at the present time, and charges you whatever % of a bitcoin = $20. And also the service will then take the bitcoin and give you that amount in either USD or Bitcoin, whichever you prefer to personally receive/hold. You dont have to update your prices or worry about overpaying, as the prices are able to be updated instantly, hence the appeal of these services. You havent done much research on bitcoin. The biggest hurdle bitcoin faces is people who are uninformed, claiming to know about bitcoins and how they operate, and spreading incorrect information. And people losing their bitcoins doesnt devalue your bitcoins... if anything it causes your bitcoin to be worth more. I dont know if you are aware... but you can deal in .5 bitcoins and such... you cant only deal in whole coins. This is why bitcoins have their high value, because there is a limited number of them available to the world, which means as the market for bitcoins grow, bitcoins become worth more, especially as people begin to lose their bitcoins. Bitcoins are already able to be split down to the 8th decimal place, and the code has been written in a way that this can be changed in the future if necessary. And while you, Acrofales think that people should sell their bitcoins asap, there are hundreds of thousands of people who disagree with you. If you want to go to nearly ANY financial information site/magazine/etc there are thousands of "experts" whose opinions vary from "its goint to crash" to "these are going to be worth 100,000,000 a coin one day." So I dont understand how, if the financial experts from Forbes arent 100% sure on the future of the bitcoin, that you are so sure. But maybe its cause I havent seen your time machine yet. I dont know whats going to happen either, which is why you wont read me saying "SELL IT ALL!" or "INVEST YOUR ENTIRE WORTH INTO BITCOINS". My guess after doing nonstop research over the past couple weeks, is that this is only the beginning. I invite you to visit R/bitcoin (tho its obv a bit bias towards the success of bitcoins) or r/bitcoinmarkets where there are 100s of articles being posted every hour full of information to read. (and by articles I mean written by our financial giants/advisors of today from sites like Forbes)
Sorry man, but you are pretty wrong about bitcoins here =/ I think someone below you said something similar.
If bitcoin is used like this there is NO reason for bitcoin to exist. You are buying something that's in USD with bitcoins, just so the seller converts back to USD. Why wouldn't you just use visa? Would it not do the exact same thing? Hell, you could even buy gold with USD, use it to purchase the good, then get the retailer to convert it back. Or you could buy it with Korean Won. The problem is that converting between bitcoins and USD is extremely expensive. You want to keep everything in one currency to prevent those costs. And those costs can't be negated... You HAVE TO have to have someone that keeps money just sitting around and doing nothing with, so when you come with bitcoins, he can purchase your bitcoins and give you the cash that was just sitting in his bank. Therefore in 100% of cases it's be economically more efficient to use money opposed to bitcoins.
Now people losing bitcoins causes deflation of goods, or the inflation of the bitcoin, depends how you want to look at it. That is a HUUGE problem. A currency that deflates has too many issues to count. And a constant money supply that has growth in the economy causes deflation, even if no coins were lost. The fact that coins can be lost semi-easily just perpetuates that problem.
The problem with currency with intrinsic value such as bitcoins or gold, is the price is impossible to control. The reason is. Say a new technology is invented to mine gold 5x as fast as it's being mined now, what will happen to the price of gold? It will change! What will happen to bitcoins if bitcoin miners gets 1000x faster and electricity becomes super cheap because of a new usable source of electricty? The price will change! Changing the price of the bitcoins changes the money supply.
You need to be able to control the money supply, or you have vicious vicious business cycles that will end you. Without being able to control the money supply, recession becomes depression. The great depression was caused by excessive deflation. People hold on to their money, don't spend, they are fucked. The government has no way to increase incentive to spend because they have no control of the money supply. If bitcoins fluctuate in value, they will only use them like you said here. Spend USD to buy bitcoins, buy with bitcoins, retailer converts bitcoins to USD, which is simply put - bad.
In my opinion the main reason the price has been so low forever is because investors knew this. Bitcoin's wont work. But then people want to see a new currency happen, and bam, people will start buying them and try to justify why they could potentially work, when they realistically have so many flaws that are just being ignored, or are given half-ass solutions to the problem.
TLDR: In their current use, BTC's are much inferior fiat currency like the Euro or USD.
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How did you use mt.gox in Canada though? Isn't it limited to US only? Did you transfer from them to PayPal then to bank account or what?
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On December 04 2013 08:29 Azide wrote:
How did you use mt.gox in Canada though? Isn't it limited to US only? Did you transfer from them to PayPal then to bank account or what?
Canadians are better with cavirtex or vault of satoshi
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EPT
