EPTBitcoin discussion thread - Page 17
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Azide
Canada566 Posts
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MaestroSC
United States2073 Posts
On December 04 2013 07:56 FiWiFaKi wrote: Sorry man, but you are pretty wrong about bitcoins here =/ I think someone below you said something similar. If bitcoin is used like this there is NO reason for bitcoin to exist. You are buying something that's in USD with bitcoins, just so the seller converts back to USD. Why wouldn't you just use visa? Would it not do the exact same thing? Hell, you could even buy gold with USD, use it to purchase the good, then get the retailer to convert it back. Or you could buy it with Korean Won. The problem is that converting between bitcoins and USD is extremely expensive. You want to keep everything in one currency to prevent those costs. And those costs can't be negated... You HAVE TO have to have someone that keeps money just sitting around and doing nothing with, so when you come with bitcoins, he can purchase your bitcoins and give you the cash that was just sitting in his bank. Therefore in 100% of cases it's be economically more efficient to use money opposed to bitcoins. Now people losing bitcoins causes deflation of goods, or the inflation of the bitcoin, depends how you want to look at it. That is a HUUGE problem. A currency that deflates has too many issues to count. And a constant money supply that has growth in the economy causes deflation, even if no coins were lost. The fact that coins can be lost semi-easily just perpetuates that problem. The problem with currency with intrinsic value such as bitcoins or gold, is the price is impossible to control. The reason is. Say a new technology is invented to mine gold 5x as fast as it's being mined now, what will happen to the price of gold? It will change! What will happen to bitcoins if bitcoin miners gets 1000x faster and electricity becomes super cheap because of a new usable source of electricty? The price will change! Changing the price of the bitcoins changes the money supply. You need to be able to control the money supply, or you have vicious vicious business cycles that will end you. Without being able to control the money supply, recession becomes depression. The great depression was caused by excessive deflation. People hold on to their money, don't spend, they are fucked. The government has no way to increase incentive to spend because they have no control of the money supply. If bitcoins fluctuate in value, they will only use them like you said here. Spend USD to buy bitcoins, buy with bitcoins, retailer converts bitcoins to USD, which is simply put - bad. In my opinion the main reason the price has been so low forever is because investors knew this. Bitcoin's wont work. But then people want to see a new currency happen, and bam, people will start buying them and try to justify why they could potentially work, when they realistically have so many flaws that are just being ignored, or are given half-ass solutions to the problem. TLDR: In their current use, BTC's are much inferior fiat currency like the Euro or USD. How is it so expensive to convert USD to BTC and BTC back to USD? It cost me $10 to convert over $1,000 from USD to BTC. To convert $1,000 USD to Australian $1,000 costs nearly $100 just in fees. Also IDK how you need to have cash on hand (as the business) to accept BTC, when there are already services that automatically convert any purchase made into BTC straight to USD so that you (the vendor) never touch a BTC. And I would use this because it costs me $100 in fees to turn my USD into Euro's when I go on vacation. And in some countries its even more expensive and difficult than that. With Bitcoins you can exchange currency from one country to another in under 10 mins. (and this is fact). And there are fees, but they are at the worst 1/2 as expensive as more conventional methods. Also even if the mining speed of bitcoin increases (which is not foreseeable/predictable as the system was designed so that mining becomes much more difficult and time consuming, as time progresses).The only way this would change is if we somehow managed a major discovery in technology and implemented it within the next 20 years. And i understand technology moves faster and advances fast, but the system was literally designed to prevent this type of thing from happening. Also there are only ever going to be a certain amount of bitcoins available to the market (there is a hardcap of how many bitcoins can be mined), so even if we somehow manage to speed up mining of bitcoins (which is seems nearly impossible and highly unlikely) All it means is a faster route to stabilization, because there will be 0 new bitcoins entering the market. And I am pretty sure the end-goal with bitcoins is to eventually have the infrastructure where there is no converting to USD or desire to do so. If you can buy any/everything you want with bitcoin in the future, you have no need for the USD, and hence no reason to ever convert BTC back to USD. I know this is the "long game" but thats what a lot of people are investing in and trying to achieve. | ||
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BakedButters
United States748 Posts
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0x64
Finland4554 Posts
On December 04 2013 18:34 BakedButters wrote: To those saying bitcoin is 100% traceable, then why are there so numerous reports on theft and heists of BTCs being stolen? Because it doesn't help you to know where they went? It's anonym! | ||
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aseq
Netherlands3977 Posts
On December 04 2013 18:34 BakedButters wrote: To those saying bitcoin is 100% traceable, then why are there so numerous reports on theft and heists of BTCs being stolen? If you can get access to someone's account, you can transfer the Bitcoins over to your preferred destination. They can still be traced back to that account, though. There's a log of all transactions. Also, most of the reports on stolen Bitcoins were those on the markets, i.e. people trusted some marketplace with their BTC, then someone ran off with them. | ||
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BakedButters
United States748 Posts
On December 04 2013 18:58 aseq wrote: If you can get access to someone's account, you can transfer the Bitcoins over to your preferred destination. They can still be traced back to that account, though. There's a log of all transactions. Also, most of the reports on stolen Bitcoins were those on the markets, i.e. people trusted some marketplace with their BTC, then someone ran off with them. Still if this were to happen for a bank, you will still have the financial backing of the bank. The bank will take those loses, or they have insurance to cover theft | ||
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Chrono000
Korea (South)358 Posts
the bitcoin price is about to break the all time high right now and possibly go on a rally. if you have a little fiat on the exchanges u might wana consider buying a little bitcoin now or soon. ignore losses and gains at this point because even as close as a year down the line the price u bought at isnt really gona matter much anymore. focus on the protocol. cho cho! | ||
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0x64
Finland4554 Posts
The are not enough bitcoin for each american to possess 0.03 BTC... Now, you can still afford a full coin but that won't be for long. | ||
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MaestroSC
United States2073 Posts
If you wanted to buy bitcoins last week, you could not get approval until today, so expect to see numbers go up for a bit. Might drop again on the weekend. If you are planning on buying coins atm id wait until monday or get them asap and cash out before sunday. Should make some $$. PURE SPECULATION, do not do anything crazy because a stranger on the internet speculated something. Price back up to 1200 while the majority of Asia (60% of the bitcoin market alone is in China) is still sleeping. Will be an interesting day to stare at the graphs anyways, that big purchase and others like it are why i dont expect bitcoins to die or crash anytime soon. There is simply too much money in them now. If they crash down to even below 500 they will be bought up instantly and shoot back up within a day due to people being aware of the volatility and chance to jump that high | ||
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Ayaz2810
United States2763 Posts
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Acrofales
Spain17983 Posts
On December 05 2013 07:54 ayaz2810 wrote: Was researching mining today. Kinda sucks that you pretty much have to already have many thousands of dollars to either A. Buy bitcoins outright as an investment or B. Buy the equipment necessary to mine more than $1 a month. I was hoping there was hope for people who didn't have anything to invest to make some cash. I am disappoint. Generally it takes money to make money... and get rich quick schemes are scams. | ||
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Ayaz2810
United States2763 Posts
On December 05 2013 07:56 Acrofales wrote: Generally it takes money to make money... and get rich quick schemes are scams. In my mind, I thought joining a pool and using a gaming computer to mine would generate some decent money over say a year or so. Turns out, even a gaming computer is nothing compared to the ~$4000+ cards you can buy. I was just woefully uninformed and got excited about what little I knew I guess. And yeah, the rich get richer lol | ||
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MaestroSC
United States2073 Posts
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Ayaz2810
United States2763 Posts
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MaestroSC
United States2073 Posts
On December 05 2013 08:45 ayaz2810 wrote: That is insane. And probably insanely profitable. The energy costs must be staggering. i have no knowledge of communist china's electricity costs.. but ya id assume so. But i am sure its worth it haha. in other news there is talk of Bitcoin becoming tradable on major exchanges... in which case we will def see some new insane new top price http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2013/12/04/the-bitcoin-bubble/ States how the government currently views bitcoin. IMO this means we will never see a shutdown or crash caused by a US shutdown. This doesnt mean the bitcoin will never go down in value again... but a lot of peoples' fears are addressed when you see the government is in favor of it and will not be looking to shut it down asap. | ||
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3772
Czech Republic434 Posts
The difficulty rises so fast in BTC that if the ASIC you buy right now gets delayed somewhere for a week or two, it will never even pay for itself. Do the math before buying stuff or you will lose money. That said, I bought some 7950's in April and made couple times the investment. Not sure if the time is right to get into LTC mining, since the difficulty will rise there too. | ||
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0x64
Finland4554 Posts
This is very good news for the bitcoin overall. The hoarding is weak and liquidity of the coin is growing with 6% of black friday volume went throught bitpay. This mean that the bitcoin is used as a currency much more widely than people seems to think. | ||
Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51484 Posts
On December 05 2013 20:30 3772 wrote: GPU mining can be profitable, but not by mining BTC. You mine some scrypt coins (like LTC) and then sell them for BTC. LTC went up to 50$ and down a bit recently. The difficulty rises so fast in BTC that if the ASIC you buy right now gets delayed somewhere for a week or two, it will never even pay for itself. Do the math before buying stuff or you will lose money. That said, I bought some 7950's in April and made couple times the investment. Not sure if the time is right to get into LTC mining, since the difficulty will rise there too. Thats what im doing, there is so many different coins right now, that i saw an opening to try and make BTC. I am using a guys program/pool which auto sends script of a certain coin to mine that is easy/valuable. You mine that (quicker because its easier to get) then you get paid with BTC for it in an automatic exchange! Pretty funky. Made $30 with 3 ppl mining (i mine with 2 other friends, GPU mining) | ||
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Karakaxe
Sweden585 Posts
So much hype and so much money will be lost. | ||
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51484 Posts
People buying BTC at most will make a small profit. People mining others to get BTC are going to make huge profits, especially if they are doing the LTC mining and exchanging for BTC. To flat out say people are going to lose money is way off the mark. | ||
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