• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 04:00
CEST 10:00
KST 17:00
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall9HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy6
Community News
Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles0[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China4Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL63Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form?13FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event22
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles Program: SC2 / XSplit / OBS Scene Switcher The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation Statistics for vetoed/disliked maps Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form?
Tourneys
RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament WardiTV Mondays Korean Starcraft League Week 77
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma
Brood War
General
Player “Jedi” cheat on CSL SC uni coach streams logging into betting site Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL BW General Discussion Practice Partners (Official)
Tourneys
[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China CSL Xiamen International Invitational The Casual Games of the Week Thread [BSL20] Grand Finals - Sunday 20:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative US Politics Mega-thread Summer Games Done Quick 2024! Summer Games Done Quick 2025! Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Blogs
Culture Clash in Video Games…
TrAiDoS
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
Blog #2
tankgirl
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 713 users

Bitcoin discussion thread - Page 71

Forum Index > General Forum
Post a Reply
Prev 1 69 70 71
mahrgell
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Germany3943 Posts
March 14 2024 10:14 GMT
#1401
I think the main issue with Bitcoin is the fact that it is completely outdated in its own domain and just living of its brand value. If feels like you were trying to invest in AOL these days, only because they once were a big name.

Imho it is difficult to discard all those issues people have with FIATs and ignore the potential of cryptos. The core problem is just that: Bitcoin isn't the answer.
It is already overtaken by a ton of other cryptos that solve those issues better and with less negative side effects. If we look at topics like transaction speed, transaction cost, energy consumption etc. there are way better cryptos out there to solve the problems crypto fans are always harping on. And lets not talk about all those early bitcoins where nobody knows if those are really frozen dead or if they could somehow wake up at some point. This would quickly ruin a lot of the finite supply argument, because the current assumption of what the finite supply is would then be completely off.

If you had to pick a crypto as a transaction medium or store of value replacement and start from a clean slate, nobody would ever pick Bitcoin. It is simply awful and outdated with too many downsides to ever make it properly usable.
So the appeal to invest in Bitcoin either stems from FOMO or from people believing in the crypto bull case, but having simply no clue where to put their money and just throwing it at the big name, because to many people "Bitcoin = crypto" is the full extent of their research into the topic.
And with the current state of the crypto world, there are indeed a bunch of promising candidates (and Bitcoin isn't one of them)... But all of them are so far from any serious adoption, that these would be just 1:10000 dart throws, which I wouldn't consider unreasonable investments, but they are not really aligned with my investment strategy. And there is a decent likelihood of the final "winner" of the crypto as transaction medium/store of value replacement race is not even created yet or it will in the end be created by the very same controlling parties that we already have right now with the old FIATs.
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25045 Posts
March 14 2024 10:15 GMT
#1402
On March 14 2024 19:10 KingzTig wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2024 18:29 WombaT wrote:
On March 14 2024 18:24 PoulsenB wrote:
You can buy things for bitcoin in the same way you can buy things for MTG cards, you can sell them and get a proper currency that is accepted by vendors. I once knew a guy who did exactly that, whenever he went on a trip he took a bunch of MTG cards and sold them in local MTG stores to get local currency. Are MTG cards currency then?

As things stand now, Bitcoin and other crypto currencies are functionally just highly volatile speculative financial assets, with vast amounts held by early adopters. And while the traditional banking system can be inefficient, one has to remember that it handles financial transactions for essentionally the entire world, billions of people. Given the amount of transactions processed every day by banks, credit card companies etc, i would say they still get things done pretty fast. By comparison, crypto blockchains process an infinitely smaller amount of transactions and can still be susceptible to slowdowns during peak hours or to volatile gas fees that can unpredicably increase the cost of making the transaction.

This basically.

It’s the real fundamental problem with a prospective currency with a finite supply, and it’s that fundamental nature that sees it generally end up functioning as a speculative investment vehicle as opposed to a stable currency primarily used to purchase other things.

I don’t personally think the tech or potential other applications are without value, but crypto bros will sit and hum when it’s pointed out before sidestepping into complaining about fiat currencies and government banks.

Nope, it's not a fundamental problem.

99% small cap stocks are volatile, it's the nature of smaller market cap, immature of market and the type of holders.
And crypto market is essentially a mini FX market, volatility is what brings in trading profit, which is why it has such a large trading volume even for small altconis at the moment.

But over time more institutions adoption, more companies holding it as reserve, including ETF will make this less volatile, which have been happening as volatility for bitcoin has been going down every cycle.

In fact bitcoin supply has been halved every halvening, but volatility has been decreasing proves my point.
Take a look at the second largest market cap crypto, Ethereum that has self-tuning money supply, with an infinite max supply, has more volatility than bitcoin should highlight how wrong that assumption is.

Or going back to gold, that has highly fixed issue rate, and "max" supply are extremely stable.
On the other hand, oil is insanely volatile, precisely because it is mostly about its demand use case, instead of monetary store of value premium that gold has.

There's no side stepping with fiat currencies and gov banks. It's just a matter of understanding the thesis and value proposal of bitcoin.

But yet you haven’t discussed your counter-argument to the early adopter issue in multiple posts?
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12384 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-03-15 00:11:41
March 14 2024 23:32 GMT
#1403
On March 14 2024 19:14 mahrgell wrote:
I think the main issue with Bitcoin is the fact that it is completely outdated in its own domain and just living of its brand value. If feels like you were trying to invest in AOL these days, only because they once were a big name.

Imho it is difficult to discard all those issues people have with FIATs and ignore the potential of cryptos. The core problem is just that: Bitcoin isn't the answer.
It is already overtaken by a ton of other cryptos that solve those issues better and with less negative side effects. If we look at topics like transaction speed, transaction cost, energy consumption etc. there are way better cryptos out there to solve the problems crypto fans are always harping on. And lets not talk about all those early bitcoins where nobody knows if those are really frozen dead or if they could somehow wake up at some point. This would quickly ruin a lot of the finite supply argument, because the current assumption of what the finite supply is would then be completely off.

If you had to pick a crypto as a transaction medium or store of value replacement and start from a clean slate, nobody would ever pick Bitcoin. It is simply awful and outdated with too many downsides to ever make it properly usable.
So the appeal to invest in Bitcoin either stems from FOMO or from people believing in the crypto bull case, but having simply no clue where to put their money and just throwing it at the big name, because to many people "Bitcoin = crypto" is the full extent of their research into the topic.
And with the current state of the crypto world, there are indeed a bunch of promising candidates (and Bitcoin isn't one of them)... But all of them are so far from any serious adoption, that these would be just 1:10000 dart throws, which I wouldn't consider unreasonable investments, but they are not really aligned with my investment strategy. And there is a decent likelihood of the final "winner" of the crypto as transaction medium/store of value replacement race is not even created yet or it will in the end be created by the very same controlling parties that we already have right now with the old FIATs.

Not true, because POW is the real innovation, not moving the traditional finance onchain, each with their own special token etc.

Most POS projects are funded by VC/bankers and will always not be as decentralised.
There is no seperation of power. Most nodes are running off AWS.
Some have foundation team with special reserve pool for development (imagine inventing special paper coin A in nation A, and the state has reserved a pool, just so it can profit off it).
Almost all major ones will always have a public team/face.

And they don't need to be as decentralised, because they want to have traditional finance onchain but more efficient.
That's also why they moved to POS, they don't have the same ethos as "old" tech coins.

BTC (and Monero) are the coins that work to compete as money, and money is the biggest issue problem to solve.
And making it "easy" (or energy efficient) is just not part of its ethos. Money is meant to be hard, POW makes sure energy/time are direct input to ensure the network is secure AND every coin is tied to a completely different resource to issue.
Make changes hard because money should be risk averse etc.
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12384 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-03-15 00:10:48
March 14 2024 23:36 GMT
#1404
On March 14 2024 19:15 WombaT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2024 19:10 KingzTig wrote:
On March 14 2024 18:29 WombaT wrote:
On March 14 2024 18:24 PoulsenB wrote:
You can buy things for bitcoin in the same way you can buy things for MTG cards, you can sell them and get a proper currency that is accepted by vendors. I once knew a guy who did exactly that, whenever he went on a trip he took a bunch of MTG cards and sold them in local MTG stores to get local currency. Are MTG cards currency then?

As things stand now, Bitcoin and other crypto currencies are functionally just highly volatile speculative financial assets, with vast amounts held by early adopters. And while the traditional banking system can be inefficient, one has to remember that it handles financial transactions for essentionally the entire world, billions of people. Given the amount of transactions processed every day by banks, credit card companies etc, i would say they still get things done pretty fast. By comparison, crypto blockchains process an infinitely smaller amount of transactions and can still be susceptible to slowdowns during peak hours or to volatile gas fees that can unpredicably increase the cost of making the transaction.

This basically.

It’s the real fundamental problem with a prospective currency with a finite supply, and it’s that fundamental nature that sees it generally end up functioning as a speculative investment vehicle as opposed to a stable currency primarily used to purchase other things.

I don’t personally think the tech or potential other applications are without value, but crypto bros will sit and hum when it’s pointed out before sidestepping into complaining about fiat currencies and government banks.

Nope, it's not a fundamental problem.

99% small cap stocks are volatile, it's the nature of smaller market cap, immature of market and the type of holders.
And crypto market is essentially a mini FX market, volatility is what brings in trading profit, which is why it has such a large trading volume even for small altconis at the moment.

But over time more institutions adoption, more companies holding it as reserve, including ETF will make this less volatile, which have been happening as volatility for bitcoin has been going down every cycle.

In fact bitcoin supply has been halved every halvening, but volatility has been decreasing proves my point.
Take a look at the second largest market cap crypto, Ethereum that has self-tuning money supply, with an infinite max supply, has more volatility than bitcoin should highlight how wrong that assumption is.

Or going back to gold, that has highly fixed issue rate, and "max" supply are extremely stable.
On the other hand, oil is insanely volatile, precisely because it is mostly about its demand use case, instead of monetary store of value premium that gold has.

There's no side stepping with fiat currencies and gov banks. It's just a matter of understanding the thesis and value proposal of bitcoin.

But yet you haven’t discussed your counter-argument to the early adopter issue in multiple posts?

what early adopter issue, volatility?

Look at Japanese yen dropping 20-30% in a year against all currencies, I don't see how that is better with Yen having very little hope ever recovering now that it is an inflationary currency.

And I don't see it's an issue when no one is forced to have bitcoin by their country through using tax, nor majority of us would have it 100% bitcoin like most of citizens would have in their portfolio.

also: wow I still got my main account somehow, thought I got it wiped when what happened in hong kong in 2019.

Then I will give you a bit of background.
Hong Kong Dollar is a pseudo USD system with foreign reserve that is rapidly drying out.
Hong Kong had like 3 - 4 currencies during different colonial stages.
There's crisis on HKD during 1997 currency collapse in Asia.
And we simply love travelling (so we got tonnes of other currencies: yen, taiwan dollar, malaysia dollar, aussie dollar)

So no one really is going to tell me HKD is safer than Bitcoin, even before I have to move out due to all the China cracking down.

Also does anyone who can delete my profile completely?
Hong Kong passed this security law that pretty much apply to everyone even oversea, not that I have a warrant on me but it's a risk I don't want to take.
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
Turbovolver
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Australia2393 Posts
March 15 2024 00:13 GMT
#1405
On March 14 2024 19:10 KingzTig wrote:
99% small cap stocks are volatile, it's the nature of smaller market cap, immature of market and the type of holders.
And crypto market is essentially a mini FX market, volatility is what brings in trading profit, which is why it has such a large trading volume even for small altconis at the moment.

Here you say crypto has a large trading volume because of "a mini FX market" but you previously used "most fiat currency movement is just FX stuff" as a negative against fiat.
The original Bogus fan.
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12384 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-03-15 00:39:02
March 15 2024 00:32 GMT
#1406
On March 15 2024 09:13 Turbovolver wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2024 19:10 KingzTig wrote:
99% small cap stocks are volatile, it's the nature of smaller market cap, immature of market and the type of holders.
And crypto market is essentially a mini FX market, volatility is what brings in trading profit, which is why it has such a large trading volume even for small altconis at the moment.

Here you say crypto has a large trading volume because of "a mini FX market" but you previously used "most fiat currency movement is just FX stuff" as a negative against fiat.

I am not really using any of them as positive or negative, just stating them what they are.
fiat currency exchange rate is largely affected by FX market (and the bond market) speculation trading, and 97.5% of transaction is FX trading. So the argument that fiat is stable in value because there's less speculative trading is just wrong.

I don't really have a problem with it, the more trading volume, the better the thing can land its true value of the time through price discovery.
A market that is more volatile will have more speculative trading to profit off.
A larger market size, different types of holders would make it less volatile overall.
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
iPlaY.NettleS
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Australia4329 Posts
December 05 2024 08:17 GMT
#1407
Bitcoin just surpassed 100,000 USD.
Could see further gains if Trump goes ahead with the US bitcoin reserve?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7PvoI6gvQs
solostoveuk
Profile Joined December 2024
United Kingdom1 Post
December 07 2024 06:22 GMT
#1408
Technology has advanced, so are we.
Chenyuan
Profile Joined February 2025
1 Post
February 14 2025 13:02 GMT
#1409
--- Nuked ---
Prev 1 69 70 71
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 3h
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft: Brood War
Hyuk 370
Mong 235
Zeus 189
Leta 185
Mind 123
Sharp 40
Shine 19
yabsab 16
Bale 9
Dota 2
XaKoH 577
XcaliburYe176
Counter-Strike
shoxiejesuss442
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King167
Other Games
Stewie2K606
Happy237
ceh9193
SortOf120
Pyrionflax99
NeuroSwarm94
ProTech44
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick31879
BasetradeTV30
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH386
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota2221
League of Legends
• HappyZerGling156
Upcoming Events
Wardi Open
3h
Replay Cast
16h
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 2h
WardiTV European League
1d 8h
MaNa vs sebesdes
Mixu vs Fjant
ByuN vs HeRoMaRinE
ShoWTimE vs goblin
Gerald vs Babymarine
Krystianer vs YoungYakov
PiGosaur Monday
1d 16h
The PondCast
2 days
WardiTV European League
2 days
Jumy vs NightPhoenix
Percival vs Nicoract
ArT vs HiGhDrA
MaxPax vs Harstem
Scarlett vs Shameless
SKillous vs uThermal
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
RSL Revival
3 days
ByuN vs SHIN
Clem vs Reynor
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
3 days
RSL Revival
4 days
Classic vs Cure
FEL
4 days
RSL Revival
5 days
FEL
5 days
FEL
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
FEL
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL Season 20
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025

Upcoming

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSL Xiamen Invitational
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.