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skaven
Profile Joined March 2013
Slovenia7 Posts
March 30 2013 16:17 GMT
#1241
I like NK because they're not cowards in the face of economic imperialism. About damn time somebody nuked America.

User was banned for this post.
FakeDeath
Profile Joined January 2011
Malaysia6060 Posts
March 30 2013 16:18 GMT
#1242
On March 31 2013 01:01 radscorpion9 wrote:
There are only so many times that you can escalate your rhetoric. At some point it just can't get any higher and its either going to be a war or an embarrassing situation for North Korea when nothing happens for a few months, while drills continue to go on in South Korea.

From reading articles on BBC I think the main danger is someone makes a mistake, and it leads to military action. But besides that, North Korea *has* (relatively recently) shelled islands and killed a few people from South Korea if I remember correctly, so I don't think its unlikely that they would do something similar again; they don't seem to afraid of repercussions on the small scale at least. The question is how would the US and South Korea respond? And how much escalation would there be from that point? Just tangentially, because its an important historical reference (and I can't think of any others), if the war cabinet is as stubborn in North Korea as they were back in Japan, then that arrogance and delusion, combined with believing their own rhetoric, could lead to a pretty serious situation.

It is a very difficult situation, because how can the US justify not preparing for the insanity of North Korea through military drills? And yet those very drills are making the situation more dangerous. We just have to hope that shelling islands is the most North Korea is willing to do, and that there is no serious response from the US/South Korea that would justify further NK aggression. Honestly sometimes I think they should do a preemptive strike.


Sure NK can do some shelling along the coastal line.
But that's all they can do.

They can't declared war at all.
NK is just making noises like i said.

Plus,China will never let NK declared war anyways.

The only reason NK can go on for this long(making " noises ") is because of China friendship with NK.

Play your best
jello_biafra
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
United Kingdom6638 Posts
March 30 2013 16:24 GMT
#1243
On March 30 2013 22:42 Zaros wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 30 2013 22:31 DrCooper wrote:
On March 30 2013 21:50 Zaros wrote:
On March 30 2013 21:45 DrCooper wrote:
On March 30 2013 19:23 darkness wrote:
I've been thinking... what if the NK leader isn't that stupid, but his father just had a wish before dying?

Also, if NK attacks USA, would NATA respond too?

If you mean NATO then yes. It is inevitable because a member of the NATO was attacked. If NK attacks SK, then no because SK is not a member of the NATO. And if the US attacks NK first it would be the same story as it was with Iraq.


I wouldn't count on Britain or France helping out tbh.

If NK attacks the U.S, every Member of the NATO is legally bound to help in some way. There are of course exceptions of the rule. (West Germany during the cold war for example, did not have to help the NATO with troops, due to the fact that they shared a border with the 'enemy').

The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security.

- Article V of the Washington Treaty
http://www.nato.int/terrorism/five.htm


Because America hasn't broke NATO rules at all before, its increasingly meaningless. As for the last korean war, france barely got involved and Britain only sent 15,000 troops and thats when we actually had bases east of suez, we won't send anything meaningful if war breaks out.

The last time that rule was invoked was after 9/11 and the invasion of Afghanistan, we all went along with it then, I don't see why we wouldn't if shit kicked off with North Korea.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions | aka Probert[PaiN] @ iccup / godlikeparagon @ twitch | my BW stream: http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/jello_biafra
hitthat
Profile Joined January 2010
Poland2267 Posts
March 30 2013 16:35 GMT
#1244
WOW... NK is already bigger attention whore than my own country...
Shameless BroodWar separatistic, elitist, fanaticaly devoted puritan fanboy.
Seldentar
Profile Joined May 2011
United States888 Posts
March 30 2013 16:39 GMT
#1245
On March 30 2013 19:23 darkness wrote:
I've been thinking... what if the NK leader isn't that stupid, but his father just had a wish before dying?

Also, if NK attacks USA, would NATA respond too?


In my opinion people are way too quick to blame stupidity or incompetence for decisions they don't understand.
overt
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States9006 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-30 16:54:11
March 30 2013 16:49 GMT
#1246
On March 31 2013 01:18 FakeDeath wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 31 2013 01:01 radscorpion9 wrote:
There are only so many times that you can escalate your rhetoric. At some point it just can't get any higher and its either going to be a war or an embarrassing situation for North Korea when nothing happens for a few months, while drills continue to go on in South Korea.

From reading articles on BBC I think the main danger is someone makes a mistake, and it leads to military action. But besides that, North Korea *has* (relatively recently) shelled islands and killed a few people from South Korea if I remember correctly, so I don't think its unlikely that they would do something similar again; they don't seem to afraid of repercussions on the small scale at least. The question is how would the US and South Korea respond? And how much escalation would there be from that point? Just tangentially, because its an important historical reference (and I can't think of any others), if the war cabinet is as stubborn in North Korea as they were back in Japan, then that arrogance and delusion, combined with believing their own rhetoric, could lead to a pretty serious situation.

It is a very difficult situation, because how can the US justify not preparing for the insanity of North Korea through military drills? And yet those very drills are making the situation more dangerous. We just have to hope that shelling islands is the most North Korea is willing to do, and that there is no serious response from the US/South Korea that would justify further NK aggression. Honestly sometimes I think they should do a preemptive strike.


Sure NK can do some shelling along the coastal line.
But that's all they can do.

They can't declared war at all.
NK is just making noises like i said.

Plus,China will never let NK declared war anyways.

The only reason NK can go on for this long(making " noises ") is because of China friendship with NK.



NK has tunnels that go into SK. We have no clue how deep they go but some of the tunnels are big enough that tanks and vehicles could traverse them. NK has nukes and they could, if they wanted to, hit Seoul with a nuke from the DMZ. If they wanted to they could kill a massive number of South Koreans before the US and others would be able to stop them. They have one of the largest militaries in the world and they have nuclear weaponry. Saying that all they're capable of is "shelling along the coastal line," is pretty naive. I would agree that they're probably just making noise but they've been prepping for war with South Korea since the end of the Korean War.

I don't even understand your comment on China. North Korea routinely does things that China dislikes or wouldn't agree with. It's not like they have a very tight lease around North Korea.

edit:
Unless your post meant they couldn't really do anything to the US. In which case, yeah. But they likely wouldn't attack the United States they'd invade South Korea.
Kurumi
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Poland6130 Posts
March 30 2013 16:55 GMT
#1247
On March 31 2013 01:35 hitthat wrote:
WOW... NK is already bigger attention whore than my own country...

what's a poland
So, any new tunnels found nowadays?
How's DMZ looking?
I work alone. // Visit TL Mafia subforum!
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43212 Posts
March 30 2013 18:39 GMT
#1248
On March 30 2013 21:45 DrCooper wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 30 2013 19:23 darkness wrote:
I've been thinking... what if the NK leader isn't that stupid, but his father just had a wish before dying?

Also, if NK attacks USA, would NATA respond too?

If you mean NATO then yes. It is inevitable because a member of the NATO was attacked. If NK attacks SK, then no because SK is not a member of the NATO. And if the US attacks NK first it would be the same story as it was with Iraq.

I believe NATO needs to be invoked and requires a formally declared state of war among other things. When the United Kingdom was invaded in 1983 NATO was not involved for various diplomatic reasons. Of course NK is diplomatically isolated and the US runs NATO so I'd imagine NATO would be involved.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43212 Posts
March 30 2013 18:44 GMT
#1249
On March 31 2013 01:49 overt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 31 2013 01:18 FakeDeath wrote:
On March 31 2013 01:01 radscorpion9 wrote:
There are only so many times that you can escalate your rhetoric. At some point it just can't get any higher and its either going to be a war or an embarrassing situation for North Korea when nothing happens for a few months, while drills continue to go on in South Korea.

From reading articles on BBC I think the main danger is someone makes a mistake, and it leads to military action. But besides that, North Korea *has* (relatively recently) shelled islands and killed a few people from South Korea if I remember correctly, so I don't think its unlikely that they would do something similar again; they don't seem to afraid of repercussions on the small scale at least. The question is how would the US and South Korea respond? And how much escalation would there be from that point? Just tangentially, because its an important historical reference (and I can't think of any others), if the war cabinet is as stubborn in North Korea as they were back in Japan, then that arrogance and delusion, combined with believing their own rhetoric, could lead to a pretty serious situation.

It is a very difficult situation, because how can the US justify not preparing for the insanity of North Korea through military drills? And yet those very drills are making the situation more dangerous. We just have to hope that shelling islands is the most North Korea is willing to do, and that there is no serious response from the US/South Korea that would justify further NK aggression. Honestly sometimes I think they should do a preemptive strike.


Sure NK can do some shelling along the coastal line.
But that's all they can do.

They can't declared war at all.
NK is just making noises like i said.

Plus,China will never let NK declared war anyways.

The only reason NK can go on for this long(making " noises ") is because of China friendship with NK.



NK has tunnels that go into SK. We have no clue how deep they go but some of the tunnels are big enough that tanks and vehicles could traverse them. NK has nukes and they could, if they wanted to, hit Seoul with a nuke from the DMZ. If they wanted to they could kill a massive number of South Koreans before the US and others would be able to stop them. They have one of the largest militaries in the world and they have nuclear weaponry. Saying that all they're capable of is "shelling along the coastal line," is pretty naive. I would agree that they're probably just making noise but they've been prepping for war with South Korea since the end of the Korean War.

I don't even understand your comment on China. North Korea routinely does things that China dislikes or wouldn't agree with. It's not like they have a very tight lease around North Korea.

edit:
Unless your post meant they couldn't really do anything to the US. In which case, yeah. But they likely wouldn't attack the United States they'd invade South Korea.

Having nukes and having missiles that can hit Seoul is not the same thing as having short range nuclear missiles. While I'm happy to admit that I don't know the exact technology available to NK their nuclear tests thus far have been controlled science experiments rather than launched nuclear warheads. There are further challenges to miniaturise the nuke before it becomes a functional warhead. It's not like they can have their physicists drive into Seoul and set up a test lab. Now, they may have already done all that or it may all be really easy to do but they have not, to my knowledge, done a nuclear missile test.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Blix
Profile Joined September 2010
Netherlands873 Posts
March 30 2013 19:06 GMT
#1250
On March 31 2013 03:44 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 31 2013 01:49 overt wrote:
On March 31 2013 01:18 FakeDeath wrote:
On March 31 2013 01:01 radscorpion9 wrote:
There are only so many times that you can escalate your rhetoric. At some point it just can't get any higher and its either going to be a war or an embarrassing situation for North Korea when nothing happens for a few months, while drills continue to go on in South Korea.

From reading articles on BBC I think the main danger is someone makes a mistake, and it leads to military action. But besides that, North Korea *has* (relatively recently) shelled islands and killed a few people from South Korea if I remember correctly, so I don't think its unlikely that they would do something similar again; they don't seem to afraid of repercussions on the small scale at least. The question is how would the US and South Korea respond? And how much escalation would there be from that point? Just tangentially, because its an important historical reference (and I can't think of any others), if the war cabinet is as stubborn in North Korea as they were back in Japan, then that arrogance and delusion, combined with believing their own rhetoric, could lead to a pretty serious situation.

It is a very difficult situation, because how can the US justify not preparing for the insanity of North Korea through military drills? And yet those very drills are making the situation more dangerous. We just have to hope that shelling islands is the most North Korea is willing to do, and that there is no serious response from the US/South Korea that would justify further NK aggression. Honestly sometimes I think they should do a preemptive strike.


Sure NK can do some shelling along the coastal line.
But that's all they can do.

They can't declared war at all.
NK is just making noises like i said.

Plus,China will never let NK declared war anyways.

The only reason NK can go on for this long(making " noises ") is because of China friendship with NK.



NK has tunnels that go into SK. We have no clue how deep they go but some of the tunnels are big enough that tanks and vehicles could traverse them. NK has nukes and they could, if they wanted to, hit Seoul with a nuke from the DMZ. If they wanted to they could kill a massive number of South Koreans before the US and others would be able to stop them. They have one of the largest militaries in the world and they have nuclear weaponry. Saying that all they're capable of is "shelling along the coastal line," is pretty naive. I would agree that they're probably just making noise but they've been prepping for war with South Korea since the end of the Korean War.

I don't even understand your comment on China. North Korea routinely does things that China dislikes or wouldn't agree with. It's not like they have a very tight lease around North Korea.

edit:
Unless your post meant they couldn't really do anything to the US. In which case, yeah. But they likely wouldn't attack the United States they'd invade South Korea.

Having nukes and having missiles that can hit Seoul is not the same thing as having short range nuclear missiles. While I'm happy to admit that I don't know the exact technology available to NK their nuclear tests thus far have been controlled science experiments rather than launched nuclear warheads. There are further challenges to miniaturise the nuke before it becomes a functional warhead. It's not like they can have their physicists drive into Seoul and set up a test lab. Now, they may have already done all that or it may all be really easy to do but they have not, to my knowledge, done a nuclear missile test.


I guess it would be pretty straightforward to beat NK. They might have a huge army headcount, but the average soldier will be underfed, underequiped and poorly motivated. The nuke potential is an unknown risk - but the risk will get worse over time. What worries me the most is that China might not accept a unified Korea (ultimate result if NK attacks) at its border.



Conquer yourself not the world. - Descartes
DrCooper
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany261 Posts
March 30 2013 20:25 GMT
#1251
On March 31 2013 03:39 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 30 2013 21:45 DrCooper wrote:
On March 30 2013 19:23 darkness wrote:
I've been thinking... what if the NK leader isn't that stupid, but his father just had a wish before dying?

Also, if NK attacks USA, would NATA respond too?

If you mean NATO then yes. It is inevitable because a member of the NATO was attacked. If NK attacks SK, then no because SK is not a member of the NATO. And if the US attacks NK first it would be the same story as it was with Iraq.

I believe NATO needs to be invoked and requires a formally declared state of war among other things. When the United Kingdom was invaded in 1983 NATO was not involved for various diplomatic reasons. Of course NK is diplomatically isolated and the US runs NATO so I'd imagine NATO would be involved.

Why the NATO was not involved in 1983 was due to Article 6, which is basically saying that the attack has to be north of the "Tropic of Cancer".
But I just read that a NATO member can choose what kind of help they offer. It doesn't have to be troops.

Also, I believe that North Korea and South Korea are in an official declared state of war atm. They have been since the Korean War. They just have an armistice (don't know wheter this is the correct term, basically they just agreed to stop fighting, but have not declared peace).
If someone knows better, please correct me!
FabledIntegral
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States9232 Posts
March 30 2013 20:32 GMT
#1252
On March 31 2013 05:25 DrCooper wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 31 2013 03:39 KwarK wrote:
On March 30 2013 21:45 DrCooper wrote:
On March 30 2013 19:23 darkness wrote:
I've been thinking... what if the NK leader isn't that stupid, but his father just had a wish before dying?

Also, if NK attacks USA, would NATA respond too?

If you mean NATO then yes. It is inevitable because a member of the NATO was attacked. If NK attacks SK, then no because SK is not a member of the NATO. And if the US attacks NK first it would be the same story as it was with Iraq.

I believe NATO needs to be invoked and requires a formally declared state of war among other things. When the United Kingdom was invaded in 1983 NATO was not involved for various diplomatic reasons. Of course NK is diplomatically isolated and the US runs NATO so I'd imagine NATO would be involved.

Why the NATO was not involved in 1983 was due to Article 6, which is basically saying that the attack has to be north of the "Tropic of Cancer".
But I just read that a NATO member can choose what kind of help they offer. It doesn't have to be troops.

Also, I believe that North Korea and South Korea are in an official declared state of war atm. They have been since the Korean War. They just have an armistice (don't know wheter this is the correct term, basically they just agreed to stop fighting, but have not declared peace).
If someone knows better, please correct me!


I believe they cancelled the armistice or at least threatened to via cancelling the hotlines a few weeks ago, hence the tension?
Liman
Profile Joined July 2012
Serbia681 Posts
March 30 2013 20:40 GMT
#1253
I don't believe any of that shit.
North Korea is just a puppet in hands of west who is trying to scare their own people so that they wouldn't think about real problems,such as economy,health,declining social norms etc.
Even if its all true they wouldn't be able to launch one missile with nuclear warhead before 10 tomahawk missiles hit that site.
Bunch of BS.
Freelancer veteran
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18838 Posts
March 30 2013 20:41 GMT
#1254
On March 31 2013 05:40 Liman wrote:
I don't believe any of that shit.
North Korea is just a puppet in hands of west who is trying to scare their own people so that they wouldn't think about real problems,such as economy,health,declining social norms etc.
Even if its all true they wouldn't be able to launch one missile with nuclear warhead before 10 tomahawk missiles hit that site.
Bunch of BS.

Do tell, what sort of ground breaking information do you have access to that reveals this North Korean puppet act?
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Seldentar
Profile Joined May 2011
United States888 Posts
March 30 2013 20:42 GMT
#1255
On March 31 2013 05:32 FabledIntegral wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 31 2013 05:25 DrCooper wrote:
On March 31 2013 03:39 KwarK wrote:
On March 30 2013 21:45 DrCooper wrote:
On March 30 2013 19:23 darkness wrote:
I've been thinking... what if the NK leader isn't that stupid, but his father just had a wish before dying?

Also, if NK attacks USA, would NATA respond too?

If you mean NATO then yes. It is inevitable because a member of the NATO was attacked. If NK attacks SK, then no because SK is not a member of the NATO. And if the US attacks NK first it would be the same story as it was with Iraq.

I believe NATO needs to be invoked and requires a formally declared state of war among other things. When the United Kingdom was invaded in 1983 NATO was not involved for various diplomatic reasons. Of course NK is diplomatically isolated and the US runs NATO so I'd imagine NATO would be involved.

Why the NATO was not involved in 1983 was due to Article 6, which is basically saying that the attack has to be north of the "Tropic of Cancer".
But I just read that a NATO member can choose what kind of help they offer. It doesn't have to be troops.

Also, I believe that North Korea and South Korea are in an official declared state of war atm. They have been since the Korean War. They just have an armistice (don't know wheter this is the correct term, basically they just agreed to stop fighting, but have not declared peace).
If someone knows better, please correct me!


I believe they cancelled the armistice or at least threatened to via cancelling the hotlines a few weeks ago, hence the tension?


I thought they officially declared war yesterday and that was even posted in this thread...?
Mafe
Profile Joined February 2011
Germany5966 Posts
March 30 2013 20:43 GMT
#1256
On March 31 2013 05:32 FabledIntegral wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 31 2013 05:25 DrCooper wrote:
On March 31 2013 03:39 KwarK wrote:
On March 30 2013 21:45 DrCooper wrote:
On March 30 2013 19:23 darkness wrote:
I've been thinking... what if the NK leader isn't that stupid, but his father just had a wish before dying?

Also, if NK attacks USA, would NATA respond too?

If you mean NATO then yes. It is inevitable because a member of the NATO was attacked. If NK attacks SK, then no because SK is not a member of the NATO. And if the US attacks NK first it would be the same story as it was with Iraq.

I believe NATO needs to be invoked and requires a formally declared state of war among other things. When the United Kingdom was invaded in 1983 NATO was not involved for various diplomatic reasons. Of course NK is diplomatically isolated and the US runs NATO so I'd imagine NATO would be involved.

Why the NATO was not involved in 1983 was due to Article 6, which is basically saying that the attack has to be north of the "Tropic of Cancer".
But I just read that a NATO member can choose what kind of help they offer. It doesn't have to be troops.

Also, I believe that North Korea and South Korea are in an official declared state of war atm. They have been since the Korean War. They just have an armistice (don't know wheter this is the correct term, basically they just agreed to stop fighting, but have not declared peace).
If someone knows better, please correct me!


I believe they cancelled the armistice or at least threatened to via cancelling the hotlines a few weeks ago, hence the tension?

Yes, but it appears they have cancelled the armistice several times before as well.
Shield
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Bulgaria4824 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-30 20:44:46
March 30 2013 20:44 GMT
#1257
On March 31 2013 05:40 Liman wrote:
I don't believe any of that shit.
North Korea is just a puppet in hands of west who is trying to scare their own people so that they wouldn't think about real problems,such as economy,health,declining social norms etc.
Even if its all true they wouldn't be able to launch one missile with nuclear warhead before 10 tomahawk missiles hit that site.
Bunch of BS.


Right, and 9/11 was set up by Bush & America. Come on, your theory does not even sound convincing. Why the heck would NK do that even for some food?
Seldentar
Profile Joined May 2011
United States888 Posts
March 30 2013 20:47 GMT
#1258
On March 31 2013 05:41 farvacola wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 31 2013 05:40 Liman wrote:
I don't believe any of that shit.
North Korea is just a puppet in hands of west who is trying to scare their own people so that they wouldn't think about real problems,such as economy,health,declining social norms etc.
Even if its all true they wouldn't be able to launch one missile with nuclear warhead before 10 tomahawk missiles hit that site.
Bunch of BS.

Do tell, what sort of ground breaking information do you have access to that reveals this North Korean puppet act?


How dare you demand evidence?! INSOLENCE!!
Liman
Profile Joined July 2012
Serbia681 Posts
March 30 2013 20:49 GMT
#1259
On March 31 2013 05:41 farvacola wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 31 2013 05:40 Liman wrote:
I don't believe any of that shit.
North Korea is just a puppet in hands of west who is trying to scare their own people so that they wouldn't think about real problems,such as economy,health,declining social norms etc.
Even if its all true they wouldn't be able to launch one missile with nuclear warhead before 10 tomahawk missiles hit that site.
Bunch of BS.

Do tell, what sort of ground breaking information do you have access to that reveals this North Korean puppet act?


Sorry cant tell you its classified

On a serious note,this is just my opinion which i formed from my history studies (i have a history degree).Knowing history is not just dates and events,its having awareness of what is behind those events.
Freelancer veteran
nvs.
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada3609 Posts
March 30 2013 20:50 GMT
#1260
On March 31 2013 05:49 Liman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 31 2013 05:41 farvacola wrote:
On March 31 2013 05:40 Liman wrote:
I don't believe any of that shit.
North Korea is just a puppet in hands of west who is trying to scare their own people so that they wouldn't think about real problems,such as economy,health,declining social norms etc.
Even if its all true they wouldn't be able to launch one missile with nuclear warhead before 10 tomahawk missiles hit that site.
Bunch of BS.

Do tell, what sort of ground breaking information do you have access to that reveals this North Korean puppet act?


Sorry cant tell you its classified

On a serious note,this is just my opinion which i formed from my history studies (i have a history degree).Knowing history is not just dates and events,its having awareness of what is behind those events.


Oh god... history degree = prereq for conspiracy theorist 101?
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