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On January 04 2013 16:27 Blargh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 15:18 ThomasjServo wrote:
Pure socialism is a pipe dream on a micro or macro scale. As far as political theory goes it is idealistic as they come, an inherently antithetical to human nature.
Unchecked Socialism has proved to be self-damning in almost every instance in the last fifty years. Barring major cultural pillars which support the social element of the theory there is really very little hope for it as a pure political doctrine.
While I am curious as to what would happen in the event of global economic collapse, I don't think that pure Socialism, or democratic Socialism is a solution in and of itself. Indeed it is. Also, I severely doubt socialism will ever become viable for many reasons. But yes, I almost wouldn't mind an economical shitstorm to occur just for the sake of seeing what would end up happening. At least it'd show karma at work. Douche-baggery and idiocy can only go on so long before karma hits like a speeding train. On a general note, it truly surprises me so many find taxes to be such a terrible thing. Assuming taxes are used on something other than some political dipshit's personal gain, they seem totally fine and I would never mind paying them. So long as people don't see any instant personal benefit in whatever tax, they will be against taxes 
That's the problem, they are always used for that...
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At what amount would the debt be considered too much?
Is there anything China can do, why haven't they done anything the past generation?
If all China can do is publish articles to voice their complaints, I think what the politicians are doing is okay. We are in too much debt, taxing an extra couple % on the wealthy is only going to pay back a minute fraction of what we owe. For those posting stuff like hoping the US gets crushed by debt to teach politicians a lesson, it's the general population who will suffer the most.
For numbers and figures, I think I got them from some WSJ articles and www.usdebtclock.org
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
Don't blame politicians, blame the people who vote them. It's a democracy, if you're complaining about the people you elected yourselves I don't know what to tell you.
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It's no secret that America is in decline, but it's just sad know that "sadism" is the word used, and it's so very appropriate. Sometimes I wish my ballot let me vote on more than just "representatives"...
...it seems my and a few other generations of Americans are going to have a lot of filth to clean up.
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On January 04 2013 17:49 W2 wrote:At what amount would the debt be considered too much? Is there anything China can do, why haven't they done anything the past generation? If all China can do is publish articles to voice their complaints, I think what the politicians are doing is okay. We are in too much debt, taxing an extra couple % on the wealthy is only going to pay back a minute fraction of what we owe. For those posting stuff like hoping the US gets crushed by debt to teach politicians a lesson, it's the general population who will suffer the most. For numbers and figures, I think I got them from some WSJ articles and www.usdebtclock.org
An economy can hold really insane amounts of debt before any effect on it's economy is felt the key is that the vast majority of the debt is held within said economy. I think US foreign held debt is about 25% of all public securities held not sure what the number is also in relation to gdp? number may be old but anything under 8% of GDP you can pretty much eat forever. So yes the debt is actually high but not in the ways some people think, and yes china is last time I checked largest single holder of foreign debt but doesn't hold the majority of it, I think it's china, japan, uk then everyone else.
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On January 04 2013 17:59 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Don't blame politicians, blame the people who vote them. It's a democracy, if you're complaining about the people you elected yourselves I don't know what to tell you.
As if America is truly a representative democracy where anyone can be voted into any office with out millions of dollars in campaigning fees, legal representation, political backing, and corporate sponsorship. Alot of people don't get to vote for people that they actually want to vote for, they are given a choice between a list of people they hate that were drafted from a pool of extremely wealthy and influential people with no regard for the middle or lower class. If I had the choice to vote for people I think are deserving of representing our country I would be voting for teachers, intellectuals, doctors, and economists, not like there's many decent ones of those around any more either now that it's basically law that if you don't work and speak in perfect congruence with the reigning political dogma in those fields you will get shafted and / or be out of a job.
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On January 04 2013 17:59 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Don't blame politicians, blame the people who vote them. It's a democracy, if you're complaining about the people you elected yourselves I don't know what to tell you.
With his multi-million dollar campaign and the massive media exposure, Obama would have been elected in your country if he presented himself, wether you like it or not.
This is democracy. You prefere to blame your peers rather than the presidential campaign. I think both have some responsability in that shit.
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On January 04 2013 18:48 Diks wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 17:59 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Don't blame politicians, blame the people who vote them. It's a democracy, if you're complaining about the people you elected yourselves I don't know what to tell you. With his multi-million dollar campaign and the massive media exposure, Obama would have been elected in your country if he presented himself, wether you like it or not. This is democracy. You prefere to blame your peers rather than the presidential campaign. I think both have some responsability in that shit.
Of course he would've been elected here. I'm not saying things are better here or anywhere else for that matter. People are just too stupid to realize their power in a democracy. Why? Because there's no union between them, everybody's looking for the best for themselves.
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What MUUUUUUURICA really needs is to change their political system to a system that elects the person the people needs not the person companies wants.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Oh wow, China is really upset at the way America is being run. Can't blame them (if the facts in that article is true, which im guessing it is 90% accurate) i mean, they hold $1.3 trillion worth of America's debt as they know how big of an impact on the world it would be if America goes tits up finacially.
Lots of trading between America and China too which is understanable as what both countries produce, but to publicly bring this up is quite strange. I know China are trying to twist the American goverments arm here and force change by throwing out a few facts about their policies, but to do this so early on is quite interesting.
I for one do hope everything gets sorted, but it is hard, when the rich rule the country (and other countries don't get me wrong) and the middle class and lower classes have to pay the most, but if you can get the balance and get the right people in the job who actually want to tackle this situation, there is no reason why it cannot be done!!
America has the same problem as the UK, but the problem is America is 100x the size and has more influence than the UK, the reason that we can get away with what we are doing for a bit longer. But i wouldn't be suprised to see something similar come up about the UK in a few years time.
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Yes democracy is too volatile and I see no other solution than a one party state. To observers of american politics the reoccurring gridlocks, filibustering and other non partisan activities aren't really a new thing.
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The way I see it is that people in Asia work harder and are smarter at the moment. It is only natural that the system adjusts itself. By that I mean Western people have to start living with less values than before. I mean you cannot expect your own living standards to get better if the Asian people's living standards are getting better. It is a zero sum game.
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On January 04 2013 19:26 Rescawen wrote:
The way I see it is that people in Asia work harder and are smarter at the moment. It is only natural that the system adjusts itself. By that I mean Western people have to start living with less values than before. I mean you cannot expect your own living standards to get better if the Asian people's living standards are getting better. It is a zero sum game.
A rising economy and living standard does not mean that people are smarter and more hard working there. There's a million factors to it.
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Ok here's someone that doesn't know anything about economy. So how can the super power USA almost get bankrupt?????
Wars cost a shit load of money, is Iraq where all the money of US went?
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On January 04 2013 19:27 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 19:26 Rescawen wrote:
The way I see it is that people in Asia work harder and are smarter at the moment. It is only natural that the system adjusts itself. By that I mean Western people have to start living with less values than before. I mean you cannot expect your own living standards to get better if the Asian people's living standards are getting better. It is a zero sum game. A rising economy and living standard does not mean that people are smarter and more hard working there. There's a million factors to it.
This is exactly what I mean, people do not want face the truth. They have been spoiled for generations. The world is not fair, it used to be for Asia and soon its gonna be for the West. The sooner you accept certain facts the easier.
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Crazy good read.
A large number of citizens have next to zero tax liability. Meanwhile, those same people are the benefactors of the entitlement policies that are weakening our country as a whole. Everybody needs to chip in, even if its only a little bit.
The other problem with the lack of tax liability and entitlement policies is that a good many of the benefactors of the status quo continue to vote in politicians who vow to raise taxes on the "haves" in order to provide luxuries for the "have nots." People as a whole have a very curious ideas about the differences between wants and needs. Sooner or later, we are all going to have to come to back to reality regarding the difference between the two.
Politicians are shouldered with the responsibility of enacting policies that will benefit our country for the long term. But, to do this, they must first care about the well being of our nation more than they care about their political status. Much like a mother or father has to limit their child's candy consumption, our political leaders need to limit the entitlements so many american's have come to know and love.
There are a lot of "programs" out there that have good intentions, but the reality is that those programs are stifling growth. One example is the recent denial of the oil pipeline from Canada. Article found here. Meanwhile, back in Washington, politicians are spending fast and furious to pay people back for their campaign support. Here is just one of many articles about the irresponsible and wasteful spending in Washington.
I was glad to see the Chinese article pointed out the disparity between America's imports and exports, specifically with China. In our pursuit to buy as much as we can for as little as possible, we have decimated our economy. There are very few people who value the benefits of buying groceries from their local grocery store. Instead, they spend their paychecks at Wal-Mart. There's a reason why their prices are so much cheaper. A large part of the goods sold there are the fruits of underpaid and overworked foreigners. We support the very things that we fight against here at home. Poor working conditions for a disgustingly little pay. An interesting article about WalMart's relationship with China can be found here. The hypocrisy evidenced by our spending habits is appalling.
Every American wants to be paid more and more money, receive better health care, and better pension plans. What they don't understand is that they are cutting their own throats. In order to support their employment desires, people must first be willing to buy the end product that is being sold at a price high enough to provide the salaries they want. Refer back to the Wal-Mart syndrome to understand why this isn't logical.
The Unions are partly responsible for this. Even though a company is going bankrupt, they still hold firmly on to the teat emphatically trying to get milk from a dry udder. Like so many things, the Union started out with a noble and just mission. However, I strongly feel that their original intent has been perverted to the point of doing more harm that good. In their effort to secure more and more money for less and less work, they are killing any chance for a business to remain profitable. Here is an interesting article about how the relationship the Unions share with American Airlines has affected their business.
America needs a reality check. Sooner or later we're going to have to make some hard choices. I just pray that we make the right decision before the consequences are out of our hands completely.
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On January 04 2013 19:31 superjoppe wrote:
Ok here's someone that doesn't know anything about economy. So how can the super power USA almost get bankrupt?????
Wars cost a shit load of money, is Iraq where all the money of US went?
You have to look at "money" from a broader perspective. Most of the money the USA have (or don't have) is not actual physical money. It's in loans, debts, investments, ETCETCETC
Of course there's physical money as well (mainly in gold).
So they can lose a shitton of money through failed investments, speculations, mishandling of taxes, etcetcetc.
And yes, of course wars cost money as well.
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On January 04 2013 19:38 Joedaddy wrote:Crazy good read. A large number of citizens have next to zero tax liability. Meanwhile, those same people are the benefactors of the entitlement policies that are weakening our country as a whole. Everybody needs to chip in, even if its only a little bit. The other problem with the lack of tax liability and entitlement policies is that a good many of the benefactors of the status quo continue to vote in politicians who vow to raise taxes on the "haves" in order to provide luxuries for the "have nots." People as a whole have a very curious ideas about the differences between wants and needs. Sooner or later, we are all going to have to come to back to reality regarding the difference between the two. Politicians are shouldered with the responsibility of enacting policies that will benefit our country for the long term. But, to do this, they must first care about the well being of our nation more than they care about their political status. Much like a mother or father has to limit their child's candy consumption, our political leaders need to limit the entitlements so many american's have come to know and love. There are a lot of "programs" out there that have good intentions, but the reality is that those programs are stifling growth. One example is the recent denial of the oil pipeline from Canada. Article found here. Meanwhile, back in Washington, politicians are spending fast and furious to pay people back for their campaign support. Here is just one of many articles about the irresponsible and wasteful spending in Washington. I was glad to see the Chinese article pointed out the disparity between America's imports and exports, specifically with China. In our pursuit to buy as much as we can for as little as possible, we have decimated our economy. There are very few people who value the benefits of buying groceries from their local grocery store. Instead, they spend their paychecks at Wal-Mart. There's a reason why their prices are so much cheaper. A large part of the goods sold there are the fruits of underpaid and overworked foreigners. We support the very things that we fight against here at home. Poor working conditions for a disgustingly little pay. An interesting article about WalMart's relationship with China can be found here. The hypocrisy evidenced by our spending habits is appalling. Every American wants to be paid more and more money, receive better health care, and better pension plans. What they don't understand is that they are cutting their own throats. In order to support their employment desires, people must first be willing to buy the end product that is being sold at a price high enough to provide the salaries they want. Refer back to the Wal-Mart syndrome to understand why this isn't logical. The Unions are partly responsible for this. Even though a company is going bankrupt, they still hold firmly on to the teat emphatically trying to get milk from a dry udder. Like so many things, the Union started out with a noble and just mission. However, I strongly feel that their original intent has been perverted to the point of doing more harm that good. In their effort to secure more and more money for less and less work, they are killing any chance for a business to remain profitable. Here is an interesting article about how the relationship the Unions share with American Airlines has affected their business. America needs a reality check. Sooner or later we're going to have to make some hard choices. I just pray that we make the right decision before the consequences are out of our hands completely.
great read from you. I agree with you. I just hope more people are like you, so there can actually be transition instead of coup of any kind.
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On January 04 2013 19:38 Rescawen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 19:27 DarkLordOlli wrote:On January 04 2013 19:26 Rescawen wrote:
The way I see it is that people in Asia work harder and are smarter at the moment. It is only natural that the system adjusts itself. By that I mean Western people have to start living with less values than before. I mean you cannot expect your own living standards to get better if the Asian people's living standards are getting better. It is a zero sum game. A rising economy and living standard does not mean that people are smarter and more hard working there. There's a million factors to it. This is exactly what I mean, people do not want face the truth. They have been spoiled for generations. The world is not fair, it used to be for Asia and soon its gonna be for the West. The sooner you accept certain facts the easier.
Thank you Jesus for pointing out my wrongness.
What if their economical and political systems are just working out better for them, thus elevating their financial state? Which is what's happening yo. What I'm saying is that there's a million more factors to this than "they work harder and are smarter". There's tons of aspects in their cultures that are in fact NOT smarter, from women's treatment to child labor and sweatshops. That may seem "smart" right now but once they have the living standards we're used to, they'll be facing the same problems pretty soon.
A reality check is in store, yes. But there's more to it than your black and white arguments.
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China critisising usa economic politics,
Like china got everything right, they are still a one party communist dictatorship with poor respect for civil rights.
China does not work harder and smarter then the usa, infact not a single country works harder then the people in the usa.
They dont work smarter either, as their labour productivity is way lower then the productivity of the usa,its just that there are realy a lot of workers in china.
60-80 hour a week with 2-3 weeks holiday a year is normal in the usa, you should hear us cry in europe when we would have to do that.
All that china does is work cheaper, because there are less regulations for polution and toxic waste,and because wages and living standards are considerably lower (on average, we here only see the 10% of china that takes part in the economic suces).
Despite chinas economic succes, i dont think there are manny americans who would want to trade their american citizen ship for chinas one, america is still way and way better of then china and will be for at least 50 more years.
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EPT
