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http://raysof-light.tumblr.com/post/33413329360/whats-really-wrong-behind-the-story-of-amanda-todd
Here's my response:
I disagree. You are not automatically part of the problem if you are not part of the solution. This way of thinking is really bad and I will explain why:
In this situation, you are only considering two possibilities:
1. You are trying to solving the problem.
2. You are trying to not solve the problem.
In this way of thinking, everyone is 100% committed to one side. This means that you automatically support a stance and are also against a stance.
Of course this cannot be true because people are for or against an idea on different levels. Would you say that the bullies are just as much part of the problem as, say myself, who did nothing to prevent this from happening? How about the people who are going to wear pink shirts on the following Monday? Would you say that they are doing just as much to solve the problem as Matthew Wong, who is going to actively talk to people about bullying?
Wong even discusses on the topic of “pink day” in his article: “But frankly, I believe that is one of the stupidest things to do. Bash me if you want, but hear me out. Wearing pink may raise awareness for the problem of bullying, but it does NOTHING to FIX the problem.”
Is he perhaps grouping those people who are going to wear pink with the bullies themselves as they are not solving the problem? I would say that what he is doing will simply have a greater impact than the pink shirt-wearers. Therefore, we must use a different scale to confront this problem.
First, we must consider the alternate possibilities. Our first two cases are fine as they are, but we must add one more:
1. You are trying to solving the problem.
2. You are trying to not solve the problem.
3. You are not trying to solve the problem.
In the case, “You are not trying to solve the problem”, the individual is neutral on the matter. They are not for or against the idea. They are either oblivious to the problem or they cannot decide which stance to commit to. An example would be the idea of abortion. Many people are against the idea and many people are for it. There are many people who can’t decide whether it is right or wrong, and there are say, children, who don’t even know what abortion is so they have no stance. These are the people who fit into category three, “You are not trying to solve the problem”. These people are not working for or against one side. Consequently, they are neutral. There are varying degrees of neutrality though. People in the neutral zone are more likely to change their mind often. When they hear a positive argument for one side, they may lean one way, whereas, if they hear a positive argument for the other side, they may lean back the other way.
A scale of zero to ten is much better than for or against. It gives much more data on a person’s point of view and is more accurate.
I suggest the scale start at 0-3 being for, 3-7 being neutral, and 7-10 being against. The topic is “Do you actively prevent bullying from happening?”
In this situation, I would say that most people would be rated at 5. Although people may be against bullying, they do not actively try to prevent it from happening.
People rated at a 7 might be the pink shirt-wearers, but the people at 9 would Wong and others who have a greater impact.
Likewise, people who are rated 3 would be the ones that watch their friends bully another person without stopping it, and people at 1 would be the bullies themselves.
Forgive the cliché but, I believe that people need to stop thinking in black and white and realize that there are shades of grey as well. Please don’t use logical fallacies such as the false dilemma. And lastly, criticize everything; it is the way to find the best possible answer.
Keep in mind that there are no right or wrong ways of doing things; there are simply better or worse ways.
edit: grammar
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On October 14 2012 06:17 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 00:32 sunprince wrote:On October 13 2012 11:59 Defacer wrote:On October 13 2012 10:41 sunprince wrote:
Yeah, I hate irresponsible white knight scum that thinks they're better than people who do understand personal responsibility. One Word: THIRTEEN. [Defacer drops mic. Internet applauds.] Congratulations, you completely missed the context. This was referring to TwoToneTerran's characterization of advocating safety as "victim blaming". Again: THIRTEEN. YOU are completely missing the context. Using the suicide of a tormented and bullied thirteen year-old as an example for why people should take responsibility for their 'safety' is the most ridiculous agenda ever, and absolutely beneath you. I KNOW you're smarter than this. It's like taking the passengers in the planes that were hijacked during 9-11, and using them for a cautionary tale about why we shouldn't trust strangers. It's a totally inappropriate opportunity to make a rather lame observation. Furthermore, your simply wrong -- she absolutely, actively took precautionary measures. She made one mistake when she was thirteen and subsequently moved schools and entire towns. Do these not count as radical steps to protect her own safety? Seriously dude, pick better battles. This one is dumb.
What exactly is wrong with saying that young teens should be more aware of the dangers of posting images of themselves on the internet?
I am genuinely confused as to why it would be a bad, almost immoral thing to do from the way you make it sound. How is supporting a call for safety a "ridiculous agenda"? Its a perfectly reasonable thing to point out, given the circumstances, as it was one of the things that led to her death, and is something that more young teens should be made aware of in order to avoid similar fates from other cyber-bullies and the ensuing pain of depression. If your only criticism after that is that it's a "lame" observation, well okay then, but your insulting attacks are unnecessary and unhelpful to what was a point meant to bring light and awareness to what potential victims can do to avoid these situations.
Also your 9-11 example doesn't really work...because not trusting strangers is an extreme way of dealing with the problem. The appropriate remark would be that there needs to be better security measures aboard airplanes (well fortified cockpit doors with locks?), and at that point I don't think the analogy has much to do with this situation.
But moreover, how is it inappropriate? Yes someone died, but why should that mean that we aren't allowed to discuss things that could help other teens? No one is going to her funeral and telling the mother "boy what she did was pretty dumb"...we are simply having an intellectual discussion on how these problems should be avoided in the future. If anything it is the *moral* thing to do to talk about how to avoid these problems while the issue is still fresh in everyone's mind. Why is it a bad thing to promote safety? I mean...are we supposed to be in mourning for at least a week before we're allowed to talk about how to help other teens avoid similar fates? It just seems way to hypersensitive.
Also the precautionary measures aren't the ones he is talking about. He is strictly referring to her decisions made online, which you referred to as "one mistake". It is a significant mistake, and awareness does need to be raised on the seriousness of it.
It is not *lame* or *stupid* to point out things that teens can do to avoid consequences that could lead to their *death*; this is a serious moral matter that needs to be considered from all sides, and treated with more respect. I sincerely hope you revise your position, and avoid belittling others who are only trying to help...
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It is not *lame* or *stupid* to point out that kids can do things to avoid consequences that could lead to their *death*, this is a serious moral matter that needs to be considered from all sides, and treated with more respect. I sincerely hope you revise your position, and avoid belittling others who are only trying to help...
Exactly. I agree. People SHOULD be holding the bullies and the person that actively tried to defame and extort her accountable. That would be taking the situation seriously.
Expecting a 13 year old to stop acting like a 13 year is the exact OPPOSITE of taking the situation seriously.
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To people who think suicide is selfish: Get off your religious high horse and think about how things in life actually affect people who don't have the mental fortitude to shake it off and try to be happy.
To people who say anything along the lines of "She deserved it": I sincerely hope you die alone knowing that no one loves you
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On October 14 2012 07:30 SoulSever wrote:
To people who think suicide is selfish: Get off your religious high horse and think about how things in life actually affect people who don't have the mental fortitude to shake it off and try to be happy.
To people who say anything along the lines of "She deserved it": I sincerely hope you die alone knowing that no one loves you
Let me fix that for you. Has nothing to do with religion  .
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On October 14 2012 07:25 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +
It is not *lame* or *stupid* to point out that kids can do things to avoid consequences that could lead to their *death*, this is a serious moral matter that needs to be considered from all sides, and treated with more respect. I sincerely hope you revise your position, and avoid belittling others who are only trying to help...
Exactly. I agree. People SHOULD be holding the bullies and the person that actively tried to defame and extort her accountable. That would be taking the situation seriously. Expecting a 13 year old to stop acting like a 13 year is the exact OPPOSITE of taking the situation seriously.
So flashing people over a webcam is a 13 year old being a 13 year old? I...really have to disagree here. Here's a question: Where were her parents to teach her that this kind of stuff is dangerous and can have dire consequences...as, sadly, seen?
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"There ain't no flame that can blaze enough, to trump being hated for the way you love,
Cry yourself to sleep and hate waking up; it's a cold world y'all, shame on us."
It truly is a cold, horrible world when you can't feel the warmth of another person's sincere caring in love and human connection.
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On October 14 2012 07:54 tMomiji wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 07:25 Defacer wrote:
It is not *lame* or *stupid* to point out that kids can do things to avoid consequences that could lead to their *death*, this is a serious moral matter that needs to be considered from all sides, and treated with more respect. I sincerely hope you revise your position, and avoid belittling others who are only trying to help...
Exactly. I agree. People SHOULD be holding the bullies and the person that actively tried to defame and extort her accountable. That would be taking the situation seriously. Expecting a 13 year old to stop acting like a 13 year is the exact OPPOSITE of taking the situation seriously. So flashing people over a webcam is a 13 year old being a 13 year old? I...really have to disagree here. Here's a question: Where were her parents to teach her that this kind of stuff is dangerous and can have dire consequences...as, sadly, seen?
What 13 year old always listens to every "dire and dangerous" warning their parent has ever said?
Every single teenager ever alive has done something stupid. The internet simply provides a means to relay it to the world and make every mistake permanent.
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On October 14 2012 07:35 Slardar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 07:30 SoulSever wrote:
To people who think suicide is selfish: Get off your religious high horse and think about how things in life actually affect people who don't have the mental fortitude to shake it off and try to be happy.
To people who say anything along the lines of "She deserved it": I sincerely hope you die alone knowing that no one loves you Let me fix that for you. Has nothing to do with religion .
I'm not a biblical expert but suicide being a sin is definitely where people get the idea that it's shameful and selfish
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On October 14 2012 07:54 tMomiji wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 07:25 Defacer wrote:
It is not *lame* or *stupid* to point out that kids can do things to avoid consequences that could lead to their *death*, this is a serious moral matter that needs to be considered from all sides, and treated with more respect. I sincerely hope you revise your position, and avoid belittling others who are only trying to help...
Exactly. I agree. People SHOULD be holding the bullies and the person that actively tried to defame and extort her accountable. That would be taking the situation seriously. Expecting a 13 year old to stop acting like a 13 year is the exact OPPOSITE of taking the situation seriously. So flashing people over a webcam is a 13 year old being a 13 year old? I...really have to disagree here. Here's a question: Where were her parents to teach her that this kind of stuff is dangerous and can have dire consequences...as, sadly, seen?
My wife once told me that her and her friends, when they were 12 and 13, used to call those neighborhood sex chat lines during sleepovers and pretend to hot, sexy ladies. They used a power drill for sound effects.
Boys and girls at that age are fucking stupid, dude, and do totally inappropriate shit. No amount of parenting can curb it. What this girl did was stupid girl-shit, and her punishment was to be stalked and tormented for two years, despite relocating to a different town or school. That is and shouldn't be considered a 'normal', expected or tolerable consequence.
Honestly, I think if she was a drug-dealing 18 year-old prostitute that stole from her johns, maybe, just maybe, I'd be more willing to argue the merits of karma and personal responsibility.
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On October 13 2012 06:12 XenOmega wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2012 05:58 Nevermind86 wrote:
She was young, beatiful probably, living in a nice country with probably a nice family and in a few years she would look at this and laugh hard at how everybody called her a whore. What a stupid reason to commit suicide I have no respect for her, there are people starving to death and they still try to do everythin to survive but this dumb girl thinks her life is horrible because of what some people think of her?, what a lack of character she got what she deserved. If I were a mod, I would probably ban you so can reflect on your stupidity. It doesn't matter if she was beautiful, rich or living in a good country. What matters is that she was not well, she was suffering. It disgusts me how you have absolutely ZERO idea about suicide, about people try to commit suicide and people committing suicide ; you are just throwing your opinions without thinking about them. Every person react differently to situations like this. Some can easily overcome them ; some can't. It would appears Amanda was in the latter. Some can handle pressure, hate, pain ; she couldn't. She needed help, but she didn't get it (was it because she didn't look? Was it because she didn't know whom to confess to?) Here, let me tell you this. Starving is painful, no one will disagree with that. Did you know that pain isn't just physical? Psychological pain is recognized and sometimes can be hard to fight against. You can easily set up laws against physical abuse ; but psychological abuse are much harder to locate. IMO. pain is pain ; it doesn't matter if its physical or psychological. And most people who opt for suicide are people suffering. So don't you dare judge them. Could she have "survived" or found a way out of this, other than suicide? Yes. Should we blame her because she "didn't try" hard enough? No, and saying that is plain stupid. Not everyone has access to information, not everyone know how to deal with stuffs like this. Yea, there are plenty of ressourses around (against suicide, against bully. There are also authorities that can help, etc), but maybe she didn't have access to them. Maybe she didn't even know those existed.
Being banned from TeamLiquid.net should definitely trigger some hardcore self reflection. Yeah.
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This is a really sad story, I have been seeing that picture of her topless all over the place. Then today I see it again today, and read about this here. People always talk about how evil, and cruel the kids are... but really it's the parents of both parties who are really to blame. She even said she was alone and needed somebody, and the kids who bullied her, their parents... the teachers, the school system, the community. It's time for people to stop ignoring this bullshit. If your kid is being bullied call the fucking cops, get a lawyer, and press charges. If your kid is bullying someone maybe they are the ones that should have to move schools, not the innocent kid being picked on. Why does it always have to be the victim that runs away, or tries to hide, our society is embarrassing.
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On October 14 2012 07:25 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +
It is not *lame* or *stupid* to point out that kids can do things to avoid consequences that could lead to their *death*, this is a serious moral matter that needs to be considered from all sides, and treated with more respect. I sincerely hope you revise your position, and avoid belittling others who are only trying to help...
Exactly. I agree. People SHOULD be holding the bullies and the person that actively tried to defame and extort her accountable. That would be taking the situation seriously. Expecting a 13 year old to stop acting like a 13 year is the exact OPPOSITE of taking the situation seriously.
You want to hold the kids who were being idiotic kids responsible for her death which means essentially making them murderers. Or would you like to hold the most likely totally anonymous pervert who joined her webchat responsible? I'd like to hold her parents responsible, because that is where the blame should go.
On October 14 2012 07:54 tMomiji wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 07:25 Defacer wrote:
It is not *lame* or *stupid* to point out that kids can do things to avoid consequences that could lead to their *death*, this is a serious moral matter that needs to be considered from all sides, and treated with more respect. I sincerely hope you revise your position, and avoid belittling others who are only trying to help...
Exactly. I agree. People SHOULD be holding the bullies and the person that actively tried to defame and extort her accountable. That would be taking the situation seriously. Expecting a 13 year old to stop acting like a 13 year is the exact OPPOSITE of taking the situation seriously. So flashing people over a webcam is a 13 year old being a 13 year old? I...really have to disagree here. Here's a question: Where were her parents to teach her that this kind of stuff is dangerous and can have dire consequences...as, sadly, seen?
Where were they when she was doing drugs / alcohol? Where were they when she was hooking up? Where were they when she most likely was not regularly taking her meds. Where were they when her child was beaten up?
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On October 14 2012 08:58 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 07:54 tMomiji wrote:On October 14 2012 07:25 Defacer wrote:
It is not *lame* or *stupid* to point out that kids can do things to avoid consequences that could lead to their *death*, this is a serious moral matter that needs to be considered from all sides, and treated with more respect. I sincerely hope you revise your position, and avoid belittling others who are only trying to help...
Exactly. I agree. People SHOULD be holding the bullies and the person that actively tried to defame and extort her accountable. That would be taking the situation seriously. Expecting a 13 year old to stop acting like a 13 year is the exact OPPOSITE of taking the situation seriously. So flashing people over a webcam is a 13 year old being a 13 year old? I...really have to disagree here. Here's a question: Where were her parents to teach her that this kind of stuff is dangerous and can have dire consequences...as, sadly, seen? My wife once told me that her and her friends, when they were 12 and 13, used to call those neighborhood sex chat lines during sleepovers and pretend to hot, sexy ladies. They used a power drill for sound effects. Boys and girls at that age are fucking stupid, dude, and do totally inappropriate shit. No amount of parenting can curb it. What this girl did was stupid girl-shit, and her punishment was to be stalked and tormented for two years, despite relocating to a different town or school. That is and shouldn't be considered a 'normal', expected or tolerable consequence. Honestly, I think if she was a drug-dealing 18 year-old prostitute that stole from her johns, maybe, just maybe, I'd be more willing to argue the merits of karma and personal responsibility.
that story made me lol so hard
The thing people are talking about is that there could be better education for parents and for children about these types of things. Maybe that education will help some girl make a better choice than this girl did and maybe it will save their lives.
^ I have to agree with this post above. So much bad shit happens and the parents get no blame for it.
Some kids who beat the shit out of my friend one night, broke his orbital, knocked out fucking teeth, knocked him out and stole the guys bike. Later that year there was a youth pastor who broke up a fight between some kids over a girl and then he got the shit beaten out of him, curb stomped, kicked in the face while on the gorund and he died from the beating from the same kids. They eventually found one of the kids that did this months and months later while the police were looking for him at his fucking parents house both times they were trying to find the kid. Like how the fuck is that not a crime from the parents for A) raising a piece of fucking trash child B) hiding a fucking felon twice after police contacted them about their son.
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Too funny people saying it was selfish. Where were you when she was feeling suicidal? Exactly...
Please, feel free to get on my level.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On October 14 2012 09:29 ImadeThisForYou wrote:
Too funny people saying it was selfish. Where were you when she was feeling suicidal? Exactly...
Please, feel free to get on my level.
Not knowing her, which is why I do not (and cannot) feel any empathy for her death.
If she said something or told someone, then she would prolly be alive and still nobody would know her.
I think there's something that video isn't telling us. A second side of the story, just like with Kony and Trayvon Martin.
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On October 14 2012 09:23 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 07:25 Defacer wrote:
It is not *lame* or *stupid* to point out that kids can do things to avoid consequences that could lead to their *death*, this is a serious moral matter that needs to be considered from all sides, and treated with more respect. I sincerely hope you revise your position, and avoid belittling others who are only trying to help...
Exactly. I agree. People SHOULD be holding the bullies and the person that actively tried to defame and extort her accountable. That would be taking the situation seriously. Expecting a 13 year old to stop acting like a 13 year is the exact OPPOSITE of taking the situation seriously. You want to hold the kids who were being idiotic kids responsible for her death which means essentially making them murderers. Or would you like to hold the most likely totally anonymous pervert who joined her webchat responsible? I'd like to hold her parents responsible, because that is where the blame should go. Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 07:54 tMomiji wrote:On October 14 2012 07:25 Defacer wrote:
It is not *lame* or *stupid* to point out that kids can do things to avoid consequences that could lead to their *death*, this is a serious moral matter that needs to be considered from all sides, and treated with more respect. I sincerely hope you revise your position, and avoid belittling others who are only trying to help...
Exactly. I agree. People SHOULD be holding the bullies and the person that actively tried to defame and extort her accountable. That would be taking the situation seriously. Expecting a 13 year old to stop acting like a 13 year is the exact OPPOSITE of taking the situation seriously. So flashing people over a webcam is a 13 year old being a 13 year old? I...really have to disagree here. Here's a question: Where were her parents to teach her that this kind of stuff is dangerous and can have dire consequences...as, sadly, seen? Where were they when she was doing drugs / alcohol? Where were they when she was hooking up? Where were they when she most likely was not regularly taking her meds. Where were they when her child was beaten up?
Um, you know assaulting, harassing people, and stalking them is illegal, or at minimum, morally wrong, don't you? There's a whole long list of ways that society or parents or her school could have intervened prior to her suicide.
And I would say that moving towns and schools is a pretty drastic action, taken by her parents, wouldn't you say?
Instead of asking where the victims parents her, maybe you should be asking who the parents of the kids that constantly harassed her are hiding. Sheesh.
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On October 14 2012 09:43 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 09:29 ImadeThisForYou wrote:
Too funny people saying it was selfish. Where were you when she was feeling suicidal? Exactly...
Please, feel free to get on my level. Not knowing her, which is why I do not (and cannot) feel any empathy for her death. If she said something or told someone, then she would prolly be alive and still nobody would know her. I think there's something that video isn't telling us. A second side of the story, just like with Kony and Trayvon Martin.
I was talking to my girlfriend today about this actually.
We will only ever get one side of the story. If anyone says anything even remotely negative about this girl people will ask for their head on a pike. Hell my gfs sister met her a few times and she said that she was just really bitchy to everyone. It's impossible to judge what really happened. I find it hard to believe there was tons of hate messages on her facebook saying use better bleach and shit because it's so public. Any parent or school administrator who was informed of the bullying would see that in half a second.
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On October 14 2012 09:45 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 09:23 NoobSkills wrote:On October 14 2012 07:25 Defacer wrote:
It is not *lame* or *stupid* to point out that kids can do things to avoid consequences that could lead to their *death*, this is a serious moral matter that needs to be considered from all sides, and treated with more respect. I sincerely hope you revise your position, and avoid belittling others who are only trying to help...
Exactly. I agree. People SHOULD be holding the bullies and the person that actively tried to defame and extort her accountable. That would be taking the situation seriously. Expecting a 13 year old to stop acting like a 13 year is the exact OPPOSITE of taking the situation seriously. You want to hold the kids who were being idiotic kids responsible for her death which means essentially making them murderers. Or would you like to hold the most likely totally anonymous pervert who joined her webchat responsible? I'd like to hold her parents responsible, because that is where the blame should go. On October 14 2012 07:54 tMomiji wrote:On October 14 2012 07:25 Defacer wrote:
It is not *lame* or *stupid* to point out that kids can do things to avoid consequences that could lead to their *death*, this is a serious moral matter that needs to be considered from all sides, and treated with more respect. I sincerely hope you revise your position, and avoid belittling others who are only trying to help...
Exactly. I agree. People SHOULD be holding the bullies and the person that actively tried to defame and extort her accountable. That would be taking the situation seriously. Expecting a 13 year old to stop acting like a 13 year is the exact OPPOSITE of taking the situation seriously. So flashing people over a webcam is a 13 year old being a 13 year old? I...really have to disagree here. Here's a question: Where were her parents to teach her that this kind of stuff is dangerous and can have dire consequences...as, sadly, seen? Where were they when she was doing drugs / alcohol? Where were they when she was hooking up? Where were they when she most likely was not regularly taking her meds. Where were they when her child was beaten up? Um, you know assaulting, harassing people, and stalking them is illegal, or at minimum, morally wrong, don't you? There's a whole long list of ways that society or parents or her school could have intervened prior to her suicide. And I would say that moving towns and schools is a pretty drastic action, taken by her parents, wouldn't you say?
Obviously what the bullies did was horrible but the parents had to have been negligent for this to occur too. If my child was being bullied to this extent that people claim I would not hesitate to move across town and to a new school and possibly change their name as well. I'm curious if the parents actually contacted the school administration about the bullying at all. We kicked a ball in gym one day and it hit a kid and we ran over and said sorry and the next day we all got pulled out of out classes in another block and the kids parents were there with the principle because they thought we were bullying him lol. This is in the same school district btw as Todd's btw. Do you really think if there were kids on her facebook saying "kill yourself" "use better bleach" the administrators wouldn't contact the police and press charges?
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i dont understand what is so special about her. she did something completely fucking stupid, and other people reacted to it. people kill themselves every day from bullying. i was bullied, not because i showed my tits to everyone, but because i didnt like the same things that everyone else did; i got bullied simply for being myself. while i give sympathy to her family and friends, i have no sympathy for her. she did something stupid, but was too weak willed to deal with the consequences.
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EPT
