EPTPro-China, Anti-Japan Protests - Page 47
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Orek
1665 Posts
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Desiire
Australia191 Posts
Hopefully this won't lead on to anything bad (bad = war, global violence, EU/NA getting involved physically) | ||
Womwomwom
5930 Posts
Only a while ago did he do a far better movie about the exact same subject matter. Its called City of Life and Death and, in a way, it makes Flowers of War's manipulative nature feel even worse because you know he's so much better than that. | ||
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levelping
Singapore759 Posts
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MaNaVoId
492 Posts
On September 17 2012 19:48 levelping wrote: It is sad because both countries ultimately have much in common. Heck if the roles were reversed I'm sure china would not be apologizing if they had raped Tokyo during ww2 in some sort of alternative history. Saving face is a big thing on both sides. Sadly a lack of empathy and undersandig appeara to be a common problem too. What's so sad about? If Japan does not want to lose face by apologizing, why did they commit those atrocities in the first place? | ||
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m4inbrain
1505 Posts
edit: nvm | ||
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Orek
1665 Posts
On September 17 2012 20:15 MaNaVoId wrote: What's so sad about? If Japan does not want to lose face by apologizing, why did they commit those atrocities in the first place? As brought up before in this thread, Japan has apologized multiple times. China, or Korea for that matter, keep saying "not enough" "not enough" "not enough"... to gain diplomacy edge every time. "Japan has not apologized" logic held true up until 80's. Yes. Japan used to be very reluctant to admit and apologize before. Apologizing doesn't mean Japan has to admit everything victim sides claim. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
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redviper
Pakistan2333 Posts
On September 17 2012 20:28 Orek wrote: As brought up before in this thread, Japan has apologized multiple times. China, or Korea for that matter, keep saying "not enough" "not enough" "not enough"... to gain diplomacy edge every time. "Japan has not apologized" logic held true up until 80's. Yes. Japan used to be very reluctant to admit and apologize before. Apologizing doesn't mean Japan has to admit everything victim sides claim. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan So lets go through that list while my tea gets read. 1. In August 15, 1995, Japanese prime minister Tomiichi Murayama made the first clear and official apology upon the war crimes, but Iris Chang, author of The Rape of Nanking, regarded Murayama's refusal to offer the written apology as equivocal and insincere. I had forgotten that in years preceding Japanse politicians had stopped writing. Sad to hear. 2. In October 2006, Prime Minister Shinzo Abe made another apology but on the same day it was followed by a group of 80 Japanese lawmakers' visit to the Yasukuni Shrine which enshrined more than 1000 convicted war criminals.[3] Two years after the apology, Shinzo Abe also denied that the military had forced comfort women into sexual slavery during World War II . Ah the "I am sorry. Now we go to honor the heroes who comitted the crimes. (2 years later) what crimes?" 3. Washington Coalition for Comfort Women Issues also rebuffed the use of a word Owabi, not Shazai, in those Japanese apologies. The coalition said, "the expression owabi in Japanese in most cases means a sense of apology slightly weightier than an Excuse me."[6] They also criticized the Japanese government for denying any legal responsibility over such crimes as forced comfort women and refusing to compensate the survivors directly. Japanese government and Prime Ministers have used the expression "kokoro kara no owabi" that means "most sincere apologies" about this issues.[7] Oh "excuse me" we raped your women. Happy for that apology now? 4. Some in Japan asserted in 1990's that what else is being demanded is that the Japanese Prime Minister or the Emperor perform dogeza, in which an individual kneels and bows his head to the ground—a high form of apology in East Asian societies, that is too humiliating for the Prime Minister or the Emperor. This is exactly what the emperor and the PM should do. 5. Emperor Hirohito let it be known to SCAP that he was prepared to apologize formally to Gen. MacArthur for Japan's actions during World War II—including an apology for the December 7, 1941 attack on Pearl Harbor. So the Emperor was willing apologize for Pearl Harbor personally. Something that wasn't even a war crime. But for the massacre of millions he can't put his fucking head to the floor? 6 June 22, 1965. Minister of Foreign Affairs Shiina Etsusaburo. "In our two countries' long history there have been unfortunate times, it is truly regrettable and we are deeply remorseful" (Signing of the Treaty on Basic Relations between Japan and the Republic of Korea). This is the most emphatic apology in that list. Its the only time they say regret and remorse for their own actions. In other times they say "regret the vexation we cause", "heartfelt sorrow for what occurred in war", "keenly conscious of the responsibility". I don't have time to go through maudlin list of half sorrys. But they all have no mention of the atrocities. No one is saying "we raped women and children in Nanking". They don't admit the genocidal nature of the killings. There is a vast contrast though in how they apologize to the British and US pows. The people they hurt the least, they give the most effluent apologies. So give me a quote where the Emperor or the PM make the following points: 1. The widespread masscares. 2. The widespread rapes. 3. The inhumaness of the japanese forces which committed those acts. 4. An acceptance of 100% of the blame. 5. An apology for all of these actions. 6. A promise to not allow future generations to forget it. That is what Germany did. And that is why Germany is worthy of a HUGE amount of respect. That is why you don't see the victims of Germany's genocide marching in the streets spitting out their hatred. | ||
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Sickkiee
Japan607 Posts
Who would when they just raped, tortured, massacred and destroyed the whole city. This whole thing about 'asking for an apology' is laughable. | ||
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ShadeR
Australia7535 Posts
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ShadeR
Australia7535 Posts
On September 17 2012 22:37 Sickkiee wrote: Even if Japan got on their knee's and begged for forgiveness - 70% of the populous of that time would not forgive. Who would when they just raped, tortured, massacred and destroyed the whole city. This whole thing about 'asking for an apology' is laughable. Stop deflecting. Should they be asking for reparations? Or demanding an eye for an eye? | ||
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coverpunch
United States2093 Posts
How closely are they tied together? If Japan said their Hail Marys and repented fully, would China give up its claim to the islands? If Japan gave China the islands, would that be any tribute toward forgiveness? On both, I think not. Germany's situation is a little different because Europe has been uniting in the postwar era, so they can "afford" to make friends by being deeply repentant. Asia is more "give an inch, they take a mile", closer to the Treaty of Versailles. The way some people are talking, Japan would only be "forgiven" if they were laid with the same brutal and onerous conditions as Germany after World War I. If you're going to be really outraged at Japan, you have to put it in the context of where Asia is today. China does not want a partnership relation with Japan. They want a hegemonic one. They don't want Japan to bow for forgiveness, they want them to submit to Chinese authority. This is a stark contrast to Poland and Germany when the Germans apologize. | ||
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Grettin
42411 Posts
http://www.businessinsider.com/1000-chinese-boats-now-setting-sail-towards-disputed-islands-2012-9 + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TytQB.jpg) | ||
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1Dhalism
862 Posts
On September 17 2012 22:24 redviper wrote: So lets go through that list while my tea gets read. + Show Spoiler + 1. In August 15, 1995, Japanese prime minister Tomiichi Murayama made the first clear and official apology upon the war crimes, but Iris Chang, author of The Rape of Nanking, regarded Murayama's refusal to offer the written apology as equivocal and insincere. I had forgotten that in years preceding Japanse politicians had stopped writing. Sad to hear. 2. In October 2006, Prime Minister Shinzo Abe made another apology but on the same day it was followed by a group of 80 Japanese lawmakers' visit to the Yasukuni Shrine which enshrined more than 1000 convicted war criminals.[3] Two years after the apology, Shinzo Abe also denied that the military had forced comfort women into sexual slavery during World War II . Ah the "I am sorry. Now we go to honor the heroes who comitted the crimes. (2 years later) what crimes?" 3. Washington Coalition for Comfort Women Issues also rebuffed the use of a word Owabi, not Shazai, in those Japanese apologies. The coalition said, "the expression owabi in Japanese in most cases means a sense of apology slightly weightier than an Excuse me."[6] They also criticized the Japanese government for denying any legal responsibility over such crimes as forced comfort women and refusing to compensate the survivors directly. Japanese government and Prime Ministers have used the expression "kokoro kara no owabi" that means "most sincere apologies" about this issues.[7] Oh "excuse me" we raped your women. Happy for that apology now? 4. Some in Japan asserted in 1990's that what else is being demanded is that the Japanese Prime Minister or the Emperor perform dogeza, in which an individual kneels and bows his head to the ground—a high form of apology in East Asian societies, that is too humiliating for the Prime Minister or the Emperor. This is exactly what the emperor and the PM should do. 5. Emperor Hirohito let it be known to SCAP that he was prepared to apologize formally to Gen. MacArthur for Japan's actions during World War II—including an apology for the December 7, 1941 attack on Pearl Harbor. So the Emperor was willing apologize for Pearl Harbor personally. Something that wasn't even a war crime. But for the massacre of millions he can't put his fucking head to the floor? 6 June 22, 1965. Minister of Foreign Affairs Shiina Etsusaburo. "In our two countries' long history there have been unfortunate times, it is truly regrettable and we are deeply remorseful" (Signing of the Treaty on Basic Relations between Japan and the Republic of Korea). This is the most emphatic apology in that list. Its the only time they say regret and remorse for their own actions. In other times they say "regret the vexation we cause", "heartfelt sorrow for what occurred in war", "keenly conscious of the responsibility". I don't have time to go through maudlin list of half sorrys. But they all have no mention of the atrocities. No one is saying "we raped women and children in Nanking". They don't admit the genocidal nature of the killings. There is a vast contrast though in how they apologize to the British and US pows. The people they hurt the least, they give the most effluent apologies. So give me a quote where the Emperor or the PM make the following points: 1. The widespread masscares. 2. The widespread rapes. 3. The inhumaness of the japanese forces which committed those acts. 4. An acceptance of 100% of the blame. 5. An apology for all of these actions. 6. A promise to not allow future generations to forget it. That is what Germany did. And that is why Germany is worthy of a HUGE amount of respect. That is why you don't see the victims of Germany's genocide marching in the streets spitting out their hatred. You can come up with the same list of dismissive excuses for German apologies i'm sure. Not to mention a lot of the blame you assign are on non official stances. You can't blame Obama for being pro-life just because republicans are. http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/FB12Ad07.html | ||
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9175 Posts
On September 17 2012 22:37 Sickkiee wrote: Even if Japan got on their knee's and begged for forgiveness - 70% of the populous of that time would not forgive. Who would when they just raped, tortured, massacred and destroyed the whole city. This whole thing about 'asking for an apology' is laughable. How is this a valid argument? 'The crimes were too serious so what's the point of apologising properly?' WTF At least contrition would be a start. The list of vague half-apologies getting posted by Orek is a joke. Show some genuine regret; specifically accept and recognise what was done. Then reflect it in your actions and words. The Japanese posters in this thread continue to show why China and Korea still harbours such hatred for them. You just seem indifferent to the appalling nature of the crimes and say it's not such a big deal. Maybe you're not being taught the full history? That said it doesn't justify the violent protests and destruction of property but the attitude of every Japanese poster i've seen in this thread is pretty callous. If Germans posted that the Jews should get over it and that a full apology isn't really necessary there'd be an uproar. If German historians started drastically revising the deaths from concentration camps saying there's not enough evidence, the shit would hit the fan. I don't care how 'sacred' the Shinto shrine is, it's already been defiled by resting the remains of Class A war criminals in it. Take them out and dump them in a landfill. Surely it's disrespectful to every other soldier enshrined there to be alongside the perpertrators of full-blown atrocities. | ||
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ShadeR
Australia7535 Posts
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reincremate
China2216 Posts
On September 17 2012 16:06 Brutaxilos wrote: Personally, I believe the flaw is the Chinese mentality itself. After living in China for all this time, I have learned a few things. People there are generally not very self-questioning. By that I mean this: if someone does not know something, they don't go out of their way to research it up themselves. There are many MANY misconceptions in China that can easily be busted by one google search (and yes people in China DO use google) this can include the whole blood type personality thing, traditional Chinese medicine (some are real, but some are fake), and a lot of random hoaxes that people believe. I do NOT believe that it is a fault in the government but just the way that Chinese civilization has developed recently. That's not a specific Chinese mentality. That's the way people in general are, regardless of where they live. For example, you can look up the stats for the percentage of Americans who don't believe in evolution, or who think 9/11 is an inside job or who vote for either the Republican or Democratic party thinking it will make anything other than a minor difference. On September 17 2012 17:47 Xpace wrote: Enough with the straw man logic. The education system brainwashes people. But as previous posters have highlighted, not everybody buys into that shit. Just because you can find examples here and there of citizens acting progressively, doesn't mean the current system doesn't foster unwarranted hatred against the PRC's opponents. There are many pro-Beijing, anti-Japanese people in Hong Kong. I've seen them step on flags. I've seen them spout their ignorant, racist crap. But again, they will NOT stoop down to violence. You're partially right. The education system does brainwash people (to an extent). But not noticeably more so than Canada or America or almost any country's education system. And news articles aren't lists of facts; they're just biased accounts from biased perspectives. | ||
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Ysellian
Netherlands9029 Posts
On September 17 2012 23:35 reincremate wrote: That's not a specific Chinese mentality. That's the way people in general are, regardless of where they live. For example, you can look up the stats for the percentage of Americans who don't believe in evolution, or who think 9/11 is an inside job or who vote for either the Republican or Democratic party thinking it will make anything other than a minor difference. You're partially right. The education system does brainwash people (to an extent). But not noticeably more so than Canada or America or almost any country's education system. And news articles aren't lists of facts; they're just biased accounts from biased perspectives. Embarrassingly true for most western countries. There is so much stuff you learn in history class which is extremely biased. That said, people advocating the opposite of what is taught in schools are given a voice in the west and I do question if that happens in China sometimes. Of course without actually living in China it's impossible to make an accurate statement about it. | ||
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rei
United States3594 Posts
Justice is empty in the sense that it does not change the past of what had been done, apology doesn't change what japan did, nuking of japan didn't change what japan did, nor would eye for an eye kind of justice change what japan did. Why would people want justice? it's so that they themselves would feel better, not because they want to make things better, justice will never change the past. Justice only has meaning and value if it can prevent the past from happening in the future. Last generation's hatred is being pasted on to the new generation, It's empty, what did the japanese of this generation do to you guys who are posting on TL? I can understand if you are in your 70s and 80s and lived through ww2 while being in China and Korea. Why talk about justice when you have no right to act on it in the first place? Since justice is empty in value for mankind, and self serving in the first place, whining about justice for something the last generation did is even more empty. Why are you so proud of being Chinese, Korean or any race/nationality? pride should be reserve for something you personally achieve, not something that you just by chance happen to inherit. My ancestors built the great wall, good for them, i didn't take part in it, what? you said it is the only man made structure that can be see in space? well good for them, but it didn't stop the Mongolian from raping and ravaging China now did it? that wall is a failure. | ||
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