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On September 17 2012 15:34 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 15:31 Xpace wrote:
On a related note, Hong Kongers should be extra glad that the peaceful protests succeeded in stopping the "national studies" curriculum that China was trying to implement.
Imagine your children growing up with the mentality of these rioters!
*pictures the amount of Japanese-made cars/shops in Hong Kong* There's no explicit linkage with the national studies curriculum that was proposed and never implemented (thus evidence is circumstantial and just projections) and the mentality of these rioters :/ Don't generalize.
These rioters are so 'patriotic' that they are destroying their own property and harming their own people. Whether or not the masses are using 'patriotism' as a guise for widespread banditry is a separate issue.
Despite protracted public opposition to the scheme including a late July rally that drew some 90,000 people, officials resisted calls to scrap it from local primary and secondary schools, saying it was aimed at instilling a greater sense of national pride and belonging towards China
Source
But fears were stoked again when a teaching booklet called The China Model was published and distributed to schools by a government-funded, pro-Beijing organization. The booklet calls China’s ruling group “progressive, selfless and united” and criticizes the U.S.’s political system as being detrimental for public good.
Source
More than 1,000 university students in Hong Kong boycotted classes last Tuesday in protest against the pro-Beijing “patriotism” curriculum that was introduced at the beginning of this month.
Source
If you didn't know, the protests for the Daioyu Islands have spread to Hong Kong. But since Hong Kongers haven't been exposed to "national studies", this is what their protest looks like:
![[image loading]](http://www.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/1400-7/photos/1452647.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img.chinasmack.com/www/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/hong-kong-anti-japanese-protestors-diaoyu-island-dispute.jpg)
I don't see any overturned Toyotas or burning Rolex/Dior shops.
Source
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On September 17 2012 15:45 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 15:41 weishime wrote:On September 17 2012 15:34 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 15:31 Xpace wrote:
On a related note, Hong Kongers should be extra glad that the peaceful protests succeeded in stopping the "national studies" curriculum that China was trying to implement.
Imagine your children growing up with the mentality of these rioters!
*pictures the amount of Japanese-made cars/shops in Hong Kong* There's no explicit linkage with the national studies curriculum that was proposed and never implemented (thus evidence is circumstantial and just projections) and the mentality of these rioters :/ Don't generalize. Yeah it's not like indoctrination from a young age can lead to those kids becoming adults with an extreme nationalist bent. Willing to attack anyone/anything related to a selected group. That never happens when you teach heavily biased history, follow it up with flag worship and dump very selective information into the media they view. Sigh... The national studies curriculum that China was trying to implement in Hong Kong is not directly linked with the educational curriculum that these rioters have recieved, that's circumstantial rather or not you can find a case where a rioter was influenced by a proposed and never materialized course (where the course material isn't even released). I'm not debating the legitimacy of the proposed curriculum because obviously it was offensive and controlling. If you use this logic then all of mainland China would be rioting right now. See my point?
Reductio ad absurdum.
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On September 17 2012 15:44 Hikari wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 15:31 Xpace wrote:
On a related note, Hong Kongers should be extra glad that the peaceful protests succeeded in stopping the "national studies" curriculum that China was trying to implement.
Imagine your children growing up with the mentality of these rioters!
*pictures the amount of Japanese-made cars/shops in Hong Kong* Hong Kong is slowly getting converted: when you rely on mainland China to financially support your region, you will need to slowly open up to their biddings. It is also somewhat ironic that these few days there are anti-Chinese smugglers/bootlegger protests. A good part of the smuggled products are japanese goods as well...
Do who's biddings? Hong Kong's business sectors function on the same economical and business models of the west, explicitly one left behind by England. It was built as a colony which was not self sufficient and required trade in order to sustain its supplies of necessities and utilities such as water, food, and electricity. The Hong Kong people are also divided up into sectors who adamantly repulse and prejudice (wrongly so) mainland people in the same vein that Americans might prejudice Mexicans, to sectors who are apologists for the government of PRC. Hong Kong business' make the most profit dealing with Chinese importing / exporting of semi finished products and manufacturing and so they will for the foreseeable future until it becomes unprofitable.
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On September 17 2012 15:49 Xpace wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 17 2012 15:34 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 15:31 Xpace wrote:
On a related note, Hong Kongers should be extra glad that the peaceful protests succeeded in stopping the "national studies" curriculum that China was trying to implement.
Imagine your children growing up with the mentality of these rioters!
*pictures the amount of Japanese-made cars/shops in Hong Kong* There's no explicit linkage with the national studies curriculum that was proposed and never implemented (thus evidence is circumstantial and just projections) and the mentality of these rioters :/ Don't generalize. These rioters are so 'patriotic' that they are destroying their own property and harming their own people. Whether or not the masses are using 'patriotism' as a guise for widespread banditry is a separate issue. Despite protracted public opposition to the scheme including a late July rally that drew some 90,000 people, officials resisted calls to scrap it from local primary and secondary schools, saying it was aimed at instilling a greater sense of national pride and belonging towards China SourceBut fears were stoked again when a teaching booklet called The China Model was published and distributed to schools by a government-funded, pro-Beijing organization. The booklet calls China’s ruling group “progressive, selfless and united” and criticizes the U.S.’s political system as being detrimental for public good. SourceMore than 1,000 university students in Hong Kong boycotted classes last Tuesday in protest against the pro-Beijing “patriotism” curriculum that was introduced at the beginning of this month. SourceIf you didn't know, the protests for the Daioyu Islands have spread to Hong Kong. But since Hong Kongers haven't been exposed to "national studies", this is what their protest looks like: I don't see any overturned Toyotas or burning Rolex/Dior shops. SourceSourceOn September 17 2012 15:45 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 15:41 weishime wrote:On September 17 2012 15:34 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 15:31 Xpace wrote:
On a related note, Hong Kongers should be extra glad that the peaceful protests succeeded in stopping the "national studies" curriculum that China was trying to implement.
Imagine your children growing up with the mentality of these rioters!
*pictures the amount of Japanese-made cars/shops in Hong Kong* There's no explicit linkage with the national studies curriculum that was proposed and never implemented (thus evidence is circumstantial and just projections) and the mentality of these rioters :/ Don't generalize. Yeah it's not like indoctrination from a young age can lead to those kids becoming adults with an extreme nationalist bent. Willing to attack anyone/anything related to a selected group. That never happens when you teach heavily biased history, follow it up with flag worship and dump very selective information into the media they view. Sigh... The national studies curriculum that China was trying to implement in Hong Kong is not directly linked with the educational curriculum that these rioters have recieved, that's circumstantial rather or not you can find a case where a rioter was influenced by a proposed and never materialized course (where the course material isn't even released). I'm not debating the legitimacy of the proposed curriculum because obviously it was offensive and controlling. If you use this logic then all of mainland China would be rioting right now. See my point? Reductio ad absurdum.
I'm rebutting the claim that Hong Kong's children would have grown up with the mentality of the rioters had the national studies curriculum been implemented, because by extension you are saying that all of China has the mentality of the rioters since the national studies curriculum (it could be argued) is a part of the Chinese educational curriculum. In case you haven't noticed, peaceful protests also occur in China, and have been occurring for years.
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Honestly, I don't even think the whole destroying cars thing applies to EVERY CITY of China. Maybe only a few of the larger ones.
It isn't a particularly good argument to say that Hong Kong did not destroy cars THEREFORE the problem is the Chinese education system. And plus, you are basing your argument on what 3 pictures of Hong Kong protests? It is clear that these people do show disrespect towards Japan as evidenced by the flag stepping on. I would think that in at least on part of the whole freaking city there would be one vandalized property.
Also, in regards for the Chinese education system. I DON'T think that it is as biased as you guys seem to think. Most people in China know what Christianity is, most know what Islam is, most know about Tiananmen Square and all the other controversies.
Personally, I believe the flaw is the Chinese mentality itself. After living in China for all this time, I have learned a few things. People there are generally not very self-questioning. By that I mean this: if someone does not know something, they don't go out of their way to research it up themselves.
There are many MANY misconceptions in China that can easily be busted by one google search (and yes people in China DO use google) this can include the whole blood type personality thing, traditional Chinese medicine (some are real, but some are fake), and a lot of random hoaxes that people believe.
I do NOT believe that it is a fault in the government but just the way that Chinese civilization has developed recently.
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On September 17 2012 15:45 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 15:41 weishime wrote:On September 17 2012 15:34 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 15:31 Xpace wrote:
On a related note, Hong Kongers should be extra glad that the peaceful protests succeeded in stopping the "national studies" curriculum that China was trying to implement.
Imagine your children growing up with the mentality of these rioters!
*pictures the amount of Japanese-made cars/shops in Hong Kong* There's no explicit linkage with the national studies curriculum that was proposed and never implemented (thus evidence is circumstantial and just projections) and the mentality of these rioters :/ Don't generalize. Yeah it's not like indoctrination from a young age can lead to those kids becoming adults with an extreme nationalist bent. Willing to attack anyone/anything related to a selected group. That never happens when you teach heavily biased history, follow it up with flag worship and dump very selective information into the media they view. Sigh... The national studies curriculum that China was trying to implement in Hong Kong is not directly linked with the educational curriculum that these rioters have recieved, that's circumstantial rather or not you can find a case where a rioter was influenced by a proposed and never materialized course (where the course material isn't even released). I'm not debating the legitimacy of the proposed curriculum because obviously it was offensive and controlling. If you use this logic then all of mainland China would be rioting right now. See my point?
I did not say they were directly linked. I suggested that any form of indocrination at such a young age to such biased views favoring a group can lead to "unhealthy" behavior in later life.
Just asked a co-worker (in Hong Kong) for the quickest thing that was controversial in that education system. He said part of it included education along the lines of the Chinese communist party being the best and having a multi party system like America is bad. That sounds like a powerful idea to be putting into a kids head.
Whether it is true or not the Hong Kong people protesting were against China brainwashing their kids. That is a view held by many Hong Kongers at least from what can be gleened on the news. By the way while the curriculum may have never been released I am told a book or booklet was released which is what seems to have sparked all the controversy on the course.
A great chunk of China is rioting and as we can see businesses are actually maketing around the situation.
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On September 17 2012 15:55 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 15:49 Xpace wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 17 2012 15:34 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 15:31 Xpace wrote:
On a related note, Hong Kongers should be extra glad that the peaceful protests succeeded in stopping the "national studies" curriculum that China was trying to implement.
Imagine your children growing up with the mentality of these rioters!
*pictures the amount of Japanese-made cars/shops in Hong Kong* There's no explicit linkage with the national studies curriculum that was proposed and never implemented (thus evidence is circumstantial and just projections) and the mentality of these rioters :/ Don't generalize. These rioters are so 'patriotic' that they are destroying their own property and harming their own people. Whether or not the masses are using 'patriotism' as a guise for widespread banditry is a separate issue. Despite protracted public opposition to the scheme including a late July rally that drew some 90,000 people, officials resisted calls to scrap it from local primary and secondary schools, saying it was aimed at instilling a greater sense of national pride and belonging towards China SourceBut fears were stoked again when a teaching booklet called The China Model was published and distributed to schools by a government-funded, pro-Beijing organization. The booklet calls China’s ruling group “progressive, selfless and united” and criticizes the U.S.’s political system as being detrimental for public good. SourceMore than 1,000 university students in Hong Kong boycotted classes last Tuesday in protest against the pro-Beijing “patriotism” curriculum that was introduced at the beginning of this month. SourceIf you didn't know, the protests for the Daioyu Islands have spread to Hong Kong. But since Hong Kongers haven't been exposed to "national studies", this is what their protest looks like: I don't see any overturned Toyotas or burning Rolex/Dior shops. SourceSourceOn September 17 2012 15:45 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 15:41 weishime wrote:On September 17 2012 15:34 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 15:31 Xpace wrote:
On a related note, Hong Kongers should be extra glad that the peaceful protests succeeded in stopping the "national studies" curriculum that China was trying to implement.
Imagine your children growing up with the mentality of these rioters!
*pictures the amount of Japanese-made cars/shops in Hong Kong* There's no explicit linkage with the national studies curriculum that was proposed and never implemented (thus evidence is circumstantial and just projections) and the mentality of these rioters :/ Don't generalize. Yeah it's not like indoctrination from a young age can lead to those kids becoming adults with an extreme nationalist bent. Willing to attack anyone/anything related to a selected group. That never happens when you teach heavily biased history, follow it up with flag worship and dump very selective information into the media they view. Sigh... The national studies curriculum that China was trying to implement in Hong Kong is not directly linked with the educational curriculum that these rioters have recieved, that's circumstantial rather or not you can find a case where a rioter was influenced by a proposed and never materialized course (where the course material isn't even released). I'm not debating the legitimacy of the proposed curriculum because obviously it was offensive and controlling. If you use this logic then all of mainland China would be rioting right now. See my point? Reductio ad absurdum. I'm rebutting the claim that Hong Kong's children would have grown up with the mentality of the rioters had the national studies curriculum been implemented. In case you haven't noticed, peaceful protests also occur in China, and have been occurring for years.
Like this?
Or this?
Or this?
I remember when I was at a friend's apartment in Beijing, we were on the 20th floor and the guest room had a view of a "peaceful protest" happening outside. I remember it so clearly because the crowd was so large, but they were all being cordoned off to a tight corner of a park area, and were literally surrounded by police and tape. Police vans and makeshift boards (at least 10ft high) surrounded the area so no one on the outside could see clearly. There were signs that read "Only approved journalists may enter. No film or camera allowed". Any message or symbol relating to the protest had to be "hidden until inside the protest zone", or the protester could face a fine/imprisonment. Towards the end they had huge black garbage bags full of signs, leaflets, posters, headbands, and the usual garbage left behind by the protesters taken away quietly.
It wasn't on the evening news. Hell, everyone my friend spoke to that was literally 2 blocks away didn't know there was a protest going on.
Truly a 'peaceful protest', lol.
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+ Show Spoiler +On September 17 2012 15:49 Xpace wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 15:34 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 15:31 Xpace wrote:
On a related note, Hong Kongers should be extra glad that the peaceful protests succeeded in stopping the "national studies" curriculum that China was trying to implement.
Imagine your children growing up with the mentality of these rioters!
*pictures the amount of Japanese-made cars/shops in Hong Kong* There's no explicit linkage with the national studies curriculum that was proposed and never implemented (thus evidence is circumstantial and just projections) and the mentality of these rioters :/ Don't generalize. These rioters are so 'patriotic' that they are destroying their own property and harming their own people. Whether or not the masses are using 'patriotism' as a guise for widespread banditry is a separate issue. Show nested quote +Despite protracted public opposition to the scheme including a late July rally that drew some 90,000 people, officials resisted calls to scrap it from local primary and secondary schools, saying it was aimed at instilling a greater sense of national pride and belonging towards China SourceShow nested quote +But fears were stoked again when a teaching booklet called The China Model was published and distributed to schools by a government-funded, pro-Beijing organization. The booklet calls China’s ruling group “progressive, selfless and united” and criticizes the U.S.’s political system as being detrimental for public good. SourceShow nested quote +More than 1,000 university students in Hong Kong boycotted classes last Tuesday in protest against the pro-Beijing “patriotism” curriculum that was introduced at the beginning of this month. SourceIf you didn't know, the protests for the Daioyu Islands have spread to Hong Kong. But since Hong Kongers haven't been exposed to "national studies", this is what their protest looks like: I don't see any overturned Toyotas or burning Rolex/Dior shops. SourceSourceShow nested quote +On September 17 2012 15:45 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 15:41 weishime wrote:On September 17 2012 15:34 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 15:31 Xpace wrote:
On a related note, Hong Kongers should be extra glad that the peaceful protests succeeded in stopping the "national studies" curriculum that China was trying to implement.
Imagine your children growing up with the mentality of these rioters!
*pictures the amount of Japanese-made cars/shops in Hong Kong* There's no explicit linkage with the national studies curriculum that was proposed and never implemented (thus evidence is circumstantial and just projections) and the mentality of these rioters :/ Don't generalize. Yeah it's not like indoctrination from a young age can lead to those kids becoming adults with an extreme nationalist bent. Willing to attack anyone/anything related to a selected group. That never happens when you teach heavily biased history, follow it up with flag worship and dump very selective information into the media they view. Sigh... The national studies curriculum that China was trying to implement in Hong Kong is not directly linked with the educational curriculum that these rioters have recieved, that's circumstantial rather or not you can find a case where a rioter was influenced by a proposed and never materialized course (where the course material isn't even released). I'm not debating the legitimacy of the proposed curriculum because obviously it was offensive and controlling. If you use this logic then all of mainland China would be rioting right now. See my point? Reductio ad absurdum.
Reductio ad absurdum is a valid and effective form of argument. It's not a logical fallacy like you seem to think. The closest fallacy to a reductio ad absurdum argument would probably be the straw man fallacy.
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On September 17 2012 16:13 helvete wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 17 2012 15:49 Xpace wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 15:34 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 15:31 Xpace wrote:
On a related note, Hong Kongers should be extra glad that the peaceful protests succeeded in stopping the "national studies" curriculum that China was trying to implement.
Imagine your children growing up with the mentality of these rioters!
*pictures the amount of Japanese-made cars/shops in Hong Kong* There's no explicit linkage with the national studies curriculum that was proposed and never implemented (thus evidence is circumstantial and just projections) and the mentality of these rioters :/ Don't generalize. These rioters are so 'patriotic' that they are destroying their own property and harming their own people. Whether or not the masses are using 'patriotism' as a guise for widespread banditry is a separate issue. Show nested quote +Despite protracted public opposition to the scheme including a late July rally that drew some 90,000 people, officials resisted calls to scrap it from local primary and secondary schools, saying it was aimed at instilling a greater sense of national pride and belonging towards China SourceShow nested quote +But fears were stoked again when a teaching booklet called The China Model was published and distributed to schools by a government-funded, pro-Beijing organization. The booklet calls China’s ruling group “progressive, selfless and united” and criticizes the U.S.’s political system as being detrimental for public good. SourceShow nested quote +More than 1,000 university students in Hong Kong boycotted classes last Tuesday in protest against the pro-Beijing “patriotism” curriculum that was introduced at the beginning of this month. SourceIf you didn't know, the protests for the Daioyu Islands have spread to Hong Kong. But since Hong Kongers haven't been exposed to "national studies", this is what their protest looks like: I don't see any overturned Toyotas or burning Rolex/Dior shops. SourceSourceShow nested quote +On September 17 2012 15:45 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 15:41 weishime wrote:On September 17 2012 15:34 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 15:31 Xpace wrote:
On a related note, Hong Kongers should be extra glad that the peaceful protests succeeded in stopping the "national studies" curriculum that China was trying to implement.
Imagine your children growing up with the mentality of these rioters!
*pictures the amount of Japanese-made cars/shops in Hong Kong* There's no explicit linkage with the national studies curriculum that was proposed and never implemented (thus evidence is circumstantial and just projections) and the mentality of these rioters :/ Don't generalize. Yeah it's not like indoctrination from a young age can lead to those kids becoming adults with an extreme nationalist bent. Willing to attack anyone/anything related to a selected group. That never happens when you teach heavily biased history, follow it up with flag worship and dump very selective information into the media they view. Sigh... The national studies curriculum that China was trying to implement in Hong Kong is not directly linked with the educational curriculum that these rioters have recieved, that's circumstantial rather or not you can find a case where a rioter was influenced by a proposed and never materialized course (where the course material isn't even released). I'm not debating the legitimacy of the proposed curriculum because obviously it was offensive and controlling. If you use this logic then all of mainland China would be rioting right now. See my point? Reductio ad absurdum. Reductio ad absurdum is a valid and effective form of argument. It's not a logical fallacy like you seem to think. The closest fallacy to a reductio ad absurdum argument would probably be the straw man fallacy.
In this particular context, the relationship is innocuous. Taking an extremity (all of China would be protesting) removes that relationship.
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Indeed, unless it's a straw man fallacy, reductio ad absurdum is legitimate. Another thing that might be close is the slippery slope fallacy. Reductio ad absurdum shows the logical jumps from one idea to the next to make a point, without assuming that each step will cause another or what have you.
One example is the concept of "buying local". Public opinion holds that it is always better to "buy American", etc. Through reductio ad absurdum, we begin by assuming we don't trade with other nations. Then we jump down a level, to the state level. Buy state! Go to the next step, buy in your town/city! Go even lower and....well, you have to produce everything yourself? But we know why self-sufficiency doesn't work, and why we need to trade--comparative advantage in the capitalist system. Here, reductio ad absurdum shows why it is counterproductive to "buy American".
Caihead employs reductio ad absurdum in the same way. I believe you posited that this is a national-level, widespread curriculum that indoctrinates the Chinese people to think one way. If a national-level curriculum were implemented all around China, all of China would then be rioting, but they're not.
Edit: yeah, as helvete said, in that case. I'm not qualified to discuss this so I can't actually get into the nitty gritty about the riots and/or their implications themselves, but these logical/argumentative devices are quite interesting 
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On September 17 2012 16:21 Xpace wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 16:13 helvete wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 17 2012 15:49 Xpace wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 15:34 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 15:31 Xpace wrote:
On a related note, Hong Kongers should be extra glad that the peaceful protests succeeded in stopping the "national studies" curriculum that China was trying to implement.
Imagine your children growing up with the mentality of these rioters!
*pictures the amount of Japanese-made cars/shops in Hong Kong* There's no explicit linkage with the national studies curriculum that was proposed and never implemented (thus evidence is circumstantial and just projections) and the mentality of these rioters :/ Don't generalize. These rioters are so 'patriotic' that they are destroying their own property and harming their own people. Whether or not the masses are using 'patriotism' as a guise for widespread banditry is a separate issue. Show nested quote +Despite protracted public opposition to the scheme including a late July rally that drew some 90,000 people, officials resisted calls to scrap it from local primary and secondary schools, saying it was aimed at instilling a greater sense of national pride and belonging towards China SourceShow nested quote +But fears were stoked again when a teaching booklet called The China Model was published and distributed to schools by a government-funded, pro-Beijing organization. The booklet calls China’s ruling group “progressive, selfless and united” and criticizes the U.S.’s political system as being detrimental for public good. SourceShow nested quote +More than 1,000 university students in Hong Kong boycotted classes last Tuesday in protest against the pro-Beijing “patriotism” curriculum that was introduced at the beginning of this month. SourceIf you didn't know, the protests for the Daioyu Islands have spread to Hong Kong. But since Hong Kongers haven't been exposed to "national studies", this is what their protest looks like: I don't see any overturned Toyotas or burning Rolex/Dior shops. SourceSourceShow nested quote +On September 17 2012 15:45 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 15:41 weishime wrote:On September 17 2012 15:34 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 15:31 Xpace wrote:
On a related note, Hong Kongers should be extra glad that the peaceful protests succeeded in stopping the "national studies" curriculum that China was trying to implement.
Imagine your children growing up with the mentality of these rioters!
*pictures the amount of Japanese-made cars/shops in Hong Kong* There's no explicit linkage with the national studies curriculum that was proposed and never implemented (thus evidence is circumstantial and just projections) and the mentality of these rioters :/ Don't generalize. Yeah it's not like indoctrination from a young age can lead to those kids becoming adults with an extreme nationalist bent. Willing to attack anyone/anything related to a selected group. That never happens when you teach heavily biased history, follow it up with flag worship and dump very selective information into the media they view. Sigh... The national studies curriculum that China was trying to implement in Hong Kong is not directly linked with the educational curriculum that these rioters have recieved, that's circumstantial rather or not you can find a case where a rioter was influenced by a proposed and never materialized course (where the course material isn't even released). I'm not debating the legitimacy of the proposed curriculum because obviously it was offensive and controlling. If you use this logic then all of mainland China would be rioting right now. See my point? Reductio ad absurdum. Reductio ad absurdum is a valid and effective form of argument. It's not a logical fallacy like you seem to think. The closest fallacy to a reductio ad absurdum argument would probably be the straw man fallacy. In this particular context, the relationship is innocuous. Taking an extremity (all of China would be protesting) removes that relationship.
Then, in your opinion, it's a straw man, not a reductio ad absurdum argument. Sorry for nit picking and veering off topic. I just love that stuff. 
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On September 17 2012 16:06 Brutaxilos wrote:
Honestly, I don't even think the whole destroying cars thing applies to EVERY CITY of China. Maybe only a few of the larger ones.
So... just because it could be worse, it's all fine and dandy?
It isn't a particularly good argument to say that Hong Kong did not destroy cars THEREFORE the problem is the Chinese education system. And plus, you are basing your argument on what 3 pictures of Hong Kong protests? It is clear that these people do show disrespect towards Japan as evidenced by the flag stepping on. I would think that in at least on part of the whole freaking city there would be one vandalized property.
I am currently living in Hong Kong. And no offense, but your listed your 'source' (in one of your previous posts) as having lived in China for a year. I've lived here for 10, but I won't claim that I know more about this topic than anybody else, if they're willing to provide more than simply "I've been there!" and actually give a solid argument.
Every hour there is a news update on every single local channel (and cable news) on this issue. Everything happening here is the complete opposite of "violent". Are the protesters prejudice? Disrespectful? Arguably so. Are they violent, or causing crime? Not at all.
Or maybe it's the number of pictures. I can post more :\
Also, in regards for the Chinese education system. I DON'T think that it is as biased as you guys seem to think. Most people in China know what Christianity is, most know what Islam is, most know about Tiananmen Square and all the other controversies.
Like how the Japanese "know" about the Rape of Nanking? Or how they "know" about comfort women? Or how they "know" about Unit 731?
It has been discussed several times in this thread, there's a difference between "knowing about it" and knowing the actual FACTS without seeing it how the PRC wants you to see it.
Personally, I believe the flaw is the Chinese mentality itself. After living in China for all this time, I have learned a few things. People there are generally not very self-questioning. By that I mean this: if someone does not know something, they don't go out of their way to research it up themselves.
"Chinese mentality" is a very, very broad term. The Chinese don't have a collective mentality. Chinese people in Hong Kong think differently to Chinese people in China.
There are many MANY misconceptions in China that can easily be busted by one google search (and yes people in China DO use google) this can include the whole blood type personality thing, traditional Chinese medicine (some are real, but some are fake), and a lot of random hoaxes that people believe.
I do NOT believe that it is a fault in the government but just the way that Chinese civilization has developed recently.
What?!?
Edit:
On September 17 2012 16:28 helvete wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 16:21 Xpace wrote:On September 17 2012 16:13 helvete wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 17 2012 15:49 Xpace wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 15:34 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 15:31 Xpace wrote:
On a related note, Hong Kongers should be extra glad that the peaceful protests succeeded in stopping the "national studies" curriculum that China was trying to implement.
Imagine your children growing up with the mentality of these rioters!
*pictures the amount of Japanese-made cars/shops in Hong Kong* There's no explicit linkage with the national studies curriculum that was proposed and never implemented (thus evidence is circumstantial and just projections) and the mentality of these rioters :/ Don't generalize. These rioters are so 'patriotic' that they are destroying their own property and harming their own people. Whether or not the masses are using 'patriotism' as a guise for widespread banditry is a separate issue. Show nested quote +Despite protracted public opposition to the scheme including a late July rally that drew some 90,000 people, officials resisted calls to scrap it from local primary and secondary schools, saying it was aimed at instilling a greater sense of national pride and belonging towards China SourceShow nested quote +But fears were stoked again when a teaching booklet called The China Model was published and distributed to schools by a government-funded, pro-Beijing organization. The booklet calls China’s ruling group “progressive, selfless and united” and criticizes the U.S.’s political system as being detrimental for public good. SourceShow nested quote +More than 1,000 university students in Hong Kong boycotted classes last Tuesday in protest against the pro-Beijing “patriotism” curriculum that was introduced at the beginning of this month. SourceIf you didn't know, the protests for the Daioyu Islands have spread to Hong Kong. But since Hong Kongers haven't been exposed to "national studies", this is what their protest looks like: I don't see any overturned Toyotas or burning Rolex/Dior shops. SourceSourceShow nested quote +On September 17 2012 15:45 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 15:41 weishime wrote:On September 17 2012 15:34 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 15:31 Xpace wrote:
On a related note, Hong Kongers should be extra glad that the peaceful protests succeeded in stopping the "national studies" curriculum that China was trying to implement.
Imagine your children growing up with the mentality of these rioters!
*pictures the amount of Japanese-made cars/shops in Hong Kong* There's no explicit linkage with the national studies curriculum that was proposed and never implemented (thus evidence is circumstantial and just projections) and the mentality of these rioters :/ Don't generalize. Yeah it's not like indoctrination from a young age can lead to those kids becoming adults with an extreme nationalist bent. Willing to attack anyone/anything related to a selected group. That never happens when you teach heavily biased history, follow it up with flag worship and dump very selective information into the media they view. Sigh... The national studies curriculum that China was trying to implement in Hong Kong is not directly linked with the educational curriculum that these rioters have recieved, that's circumstantial rather or not you can find a case where a rioter was influenced by a proposed and never materialized course (where the course material isn't even released). I'm not debating the legitimacy of the proposed curriculum because obviously it was offensive and controlling. If you use this logic then all of mainland China would be rioting right now. See my point? Reductio ad absurdum. Reductio ad absurdum is a valid and effective form of argument. It's not a logical fallacy like you seem to think. The closest fallacy to a reductio ad absurdum argument would probably be the straw man fallacy. In this particular context, the relationship is innocuous. Taking an extremity (all of China would be protesting) removes that relationship. Then, in your opinion, it's a straw man, not a reductio ad absurdum argument. Sorry for nit picking and veering off topic. I just love that stuff.
No, you're right :\ lol
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On September 17 2012 16:06 Brutaxilos wrote:
Honestly, I don't even think the whole destroying cars thing applies to EVERY CITY of China. Maybe only a few of the larger ones.
It isn't a particularly good argument to say that Hong Kong did not destroy cars THEREFORE the problem is the Chinese education system. And plus, you are basing your argument on what 3 pictures of Hong Kong protests? It is clear that these people do show disrespect towards Japan as evidenced by the flag stepping on. I would think that in at least on part of the whole freaking city there would be one vandalized property.
Also, in regards for the Chinese education system. I DON'T think that it is as biased as you guys seem to think. Most people in China know what Christianity is, most know what Islam is, most know about Tiananmen Square and all the other controversies.
Personally, I believe the flaw is the Chinese mentality itself. After living in China for all this time, I have learned a few things. People there are generally not very self-questioning. By that I mean this: if someone does not know something, they don't go out of their way to research it up themselves.
There are many MANY misconceptions in China that can easily be busted by one google search (and yes people in China DO use google) this can include the whole blood type personality thing, traditional Chinese medicine (some are real, but some are fake), and a lot of random hoaxes that people believe.
I do NOT believe that it is a fault in the government but just the way that Chinese civilization has developed recently.
What are you talking about? Of course they know what Christianity is, there are churches in China. Muslims? Have you been to west China or even walked out on the streets of east coast cities? There are loads of Muslim restaurants. Yeah, most get informed during University regarding Tianamen. Actual education in schools skims over what happened. Tank man, possibly one of the most iconic photos in our recent history isn't in the books.
Searches on Google in China are censored. I doubt it would affect you since keywords are more aimed towards actual characters rather than English. Also why would it affect results on myths, that isn't something that will hurt the government.
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On September 17 2012 16:11 Xpace wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 15:55 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 15:49 Xpace wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 17 2012 15:34 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 15:31 Xpace wrote:
On a related note, Hong Kongers should be extra glad that the peaceful protests succeeded in stopping the "national studies" curriculum that China was trying to implement.
Imagine your children growing up with the mentality of these rioters!
*pictures the amount of Japanese-made cars/shops in Hong Kong* There's no explicit linkage with the national studies curriculum that was proposed and never implemented (thus evidence is circumstantial and just projections) and the mentality of these rioters :/ Don't generalize. These rioters are so 'patriotic' that they are destroying their own property and harming their own people. Whether or not the masses are using 'patriotism' as a guise for widespread banditry is a separate issue. Despite protracted public opposition to the scheme including a late July rally that drew some 90,000 people, officials resisted calls to scrap it from local primary and secondary schools, saying it was aimed at instilling a greater sense of national pride and belonging towards China SourceBut fears were stoked again when a teaching booklet called The China Model was published and distributed to schools by a government-funded, pro-Beijing organization. The booklet calls China’s ruling group “progressive, selfless and united” and criticizes the U.S.’s political system as being detrimental for public good. SourceMore than 1,000 university students in Hong Kong boycotted classes last Tuesday in protest against the pro-Beijing “patriotism” curriculum that was introduced at the beginning of this month. SourceIf you didn't know, the protests for the Daioyu Islands have spread to Hong Kong. But since Hong Kongers haven't been exposed to "national studies", this is what their protest looks like: I don't see any overturned Toyotas or burning Rolex/Dior shops. SourceSourceOn September 17 2012 15:45 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 15:41 weishime wrote:On September 17 2012 15:34 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 15:31 Xpace wrote:
On a related note, Hong Kongers should be extra glad that the peaceful protests succeeded in stopping the "national studies" curriculum that China was trying to implement.
Imagine your children growing up with the mentality of these rioters!
*pictures the amount of Japanese-made cars/shops in Hong Kong* There's no explicit linkage with the national studies curriculum that was proposed and never implemented (thus evidence is circumstantial and just projections) and the mentality of these rioters :/ Don't generalize. Yeah it's not like indoctrination from a young age can lead to those kids becoming adults with an extreme nationalist bent. Willing to attack anyone/anything related to a selected group. That never happens when you teach heavily biased history, follow it up with flag worship and dump very selective information into the media they view. Sigh... The national studies curriculum that China was trying to implement in Hong Kong is not directly linked with the educational curriculum that these rioters have recieved, that's circumstantial rather or not you can find a case where a rioter was influenced by a proposed and never materialized course (where the course material isn't even released). I'm not debating the legitimacy of the proposed curriculum because obviously it was offensive and controlling. If you use this logic then all of mainland China would be rioting right now. See my point? Reductio ad absurdum. I'm rebutting the claim that Hong Kong's children would have grown up with the mentality of the rioters had the national studies curriculum been implemented. In case you haven't noticed, peaceful protests also occur in China, and have been occurring for years. Like this? Or this? Or this? I remember when I was at a friend's apartment in Beijing, we were on the 20th floor and the guest room had a view of a "peaceful protest" happening outside. I remember it so clearly because the crowd was so large, but they were all being cordoned off to a tight corner of a park area, and were literally surrounded by police and tape. Police vans and makeshift boards (at least 10ft high) surrounded the area so no one on the outside could see clearly. There were signs that read "Only approved journalists may enter. No film or camera allowed". Any message or symbol relating to the protest had to be "hidden until inside the protest zone", or the protester could face a fine/imprisonment. Towards the end they had huge black garbage bags full of signs, leaflets, posters, headbands, and the usual garbage left behind by the protesters taken away quietly. It wasn't on the evening news. Hell, everyone my friend spoke to that was literally 2 blocks away didn't know there was a protest going on. Truly a ' peaceful protest', lol.
You seem to be confusing citizens wishing to participate in peaceful protest who are subsequently prosecuted by the government with wish for peaceful protest not existing. The fact that citizens wish to participate in peaceful protests instead of rioting contributes to my argument, not yours. That Chinese citizens, regardless of national educational curriculum, did not riot in the vast majority of cases, even when they are actively prosecuted for doing so.
Also I was rebutting this statement
"On a related note, Hong Kongers should be extra glad that the peaceful protests succeeded in stopping the "national studies" curriculum that China was trying to implement.
Imagine your children growing up with the mentality of these rioters! "
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On September 17 2012 16:39 weishime wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 16:06 Brutaxilos wrote:
Honestly, I don't even think the whole destroying cars thing applies to EVERY CITY of China. Maybe only a few of the larger ones.
It isn't a particularly good argument to say that Hong Kong did not destroy cars THEREFORE the problem is the Chinese education system. And plus, you are basing your argument on what 3 pictures of Hong Kong protests? It is clear that these people do show disrespect towards Japan as evidenced by the flag stepping on. I would think that in at least on part of the whole freaking city there would be one vandalized property.
Also, in regards for the Chinese education system. I DON'T think that it is as biased as you guys seem to think. Most people in China know what Christianity is, most know what Islam is, most know about Tiananmen Square and all the other controversies.
Personally, I believe the flaw is the Chinese mentality itself. After living in China for all this time, I have learned a few things. People there are generally not very self-questioning. By that I mean this: if someone does not know something, they don't go out of their way to research it up themselves.
There are many MANY misconceptions in China that can easily be busted by one google search (and yes people in China DO use google) this can include the whole blood type personality thing, traditional Chinese medicine (some are real, but some are fake), and a lot of random hoaxes that people believe.
I do NOT believe that it is a fault in the government but just the way that Chinese civilization has developed recently. What are you talking about? Of course they know what Christianity is, there are churches in China. Muslims? Have you been to west China or even walked out on the streets of east coast cities? There are loads of Muslim restaurants. Yeah, most get informed during University regarding Tianamen. Actual education in schools skims over what happened. Tank man, possibly one of the most iconic photos in our recent history isn't in the books. Searches on Google in China are censored. I doubt it would affect you since keywords are more aimed towards actual characters rather than English. Also why would it affect results on myths, that isn't something that will hurt the government.
Can I just addendum to this? Most people (vast majority) in China actively understand the process of censoring and brainwashing that the government is enforcing on them and thus go out of their way to fight against it. It's actually one of the biggest reasons aside from leisure, education, and living standards for Chinese citizens to travel outside of China (even if for short time periods). Suggesting that Chinese citizens don't understand the corruption with in their government is ridiculous since they have to deal with it on a daily basis.
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On September 17 2012 16:44 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 16:11 Xpace wrote:On September 17 2012 15:55 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 15:49 Xpace wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 17 2012 15:34 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 15:31 Xpace wrote:
On a related note, Hong Kongers should be extra glad that the peaceful protests succeeded in stopping the "national studies" curriculum that China was trying to implement.
Imagine your children growing up with the mentality of these rioters!
*pictures the amount of Japanese-made cars/shops in Hong Kong* There's no explicit linkage with the national studies curriculum that was proposed and never implemented (thus evidence is circumstantial and just projections) and the mentality of these rioters :/ Don't generalize. These rioters are so 'patriotic' that they are destroying their own property and harming their own people. Whether or not the masses are using 'patriotism' as a guise for widespread banditry is a separate issue. Despite protracted public opposition to the scheme including a late July rally that drew some 90,000 people, officials resisted calls to scrap it from local primary and secondary schools, saying it was aimed at instilling a greater sense of national pride and belonging towards China SourceBut fears were stoked again when a teaching booklet called The China Model was published and distributed to schools by a government-funded, pro-Beijing organization. The booklet calls China’s ruling group “progressive, selfless and united” and criticizes the U.S.’s political system as being detrimental for public good. SourceMore than 1,000 university students in Hong Kong boycotted classes last Tuesday in protest against the pro-Beijing “patriotism” curriculum that was introduced at the beginning of this month. SourceIf you didn't know, the protests for the Daioyu Islands have spread to Hong Kong. But since Hong Kongers haven't been exposed to "national studies", this is what their protest looks like: I don't see any overturned Toyotas or burning Rolex/Dior shops. SourceSourceOn September 17 2012 15:45 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 15:41 weishime wrote:On September 17 2012 15:34 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 15:31 Xpace wrote:
On a related note, Hong Kongers should be extra glad that the peaceful protests succeeded in stopping the "national studies" curriculum that China was trying to implement.
Imagine your children growing up with the mentality of these rioters!
*pictures the amount of Japanese-made cars/shops in Hong Kong* There's no explicit linkage with the national studies curriculum that was proposed and never implemented (thus evidence is circumstantial and just projections) and the mentality of these rioters :/ Don't generalize. Yeah it's not like indoctrination from a young age can lead to those kids becoming adults with an extreme nationalist bent. Willing to attack anyone/anything related to a selected group. That never happens when you teach heavily biased history, follow it up with flag worship and dump very selective information into the media they view. Sigh... The national studies curriculum that China was trying to implement in Hong Kong is not directly linked with the educational curriculum that these rioters have recieved, that's circumstantial rather or not you can find a case where a rioter was influenced by a proposed and never materialized course (where the course material isn't even released). I'm not debating the legitimacy of the proposed curriculum because obviously it was offensive and controlling. If you use this logic then all of mainland China would be rioting right now. See my point? Reductio ad absurdum. I'm rebutting the claim that Hong Kong's children would have grown up with the mentality of the rioters had the national studies curriculum been implemented. In case you haven't noticed, peaceful protests also occur in China, and have been occurring for years. Like this? Or this? Or this? I remember when I was at a friend's apartment in Beijing, we were on the 20th floor and the guest room had a view of a "peaceful protest" happening outside. I remember it so clearly because the crowd was so large, but they were all being cordoned off to a tight corner of a park area, and were literally surrounded by police and tape. Police vans and makeshift boards (at least 10ft high) surrounded the area so no one on the outside could see clearly. There were signs that read "Only approved journalists may enter. No film or camera allowed". Any message or symbol relating to the protest had to be "hidden until inside the protest zone", or the protester could face a fine/imprisonment. Towards the end they had huge black garbage bags full of signs, leaflets, posters, headbands, and the usual garbage left behind by the protesters taken away quietly. It wasn't on the evening news. Hell, everyone my friend spoke to that was literally 2 blocks away didn't know there was a protest going on. Truly a ' peaceful protest', lol. You seem to be confusing citizens wishing to participate in peaceful protest who are subsequently prosecuted by the government with wish for peaceful protest not existing. The fact that citizens wish to participate in peaceful protests instead of rioting contributes to my argument, not yours. That Chinese citizens, regardless of national educational curriculum, did not riot in the vast majority of cases, even when they are actively prosecuted for doing so. Also I was rebutting this statement "On a related note, Hong Kongers should be extra glad that the peaceful protests succeeded in stopping the "national studies" curriculum that China was trying to implement. Imagine your children growing up with the mentality of these rioters! "
So where did this riot mentality, where destroying your own property and attacking your own countrymen came from?
Simple mob mentality? I hope the Chinese aren't that uneducated, are they?
Widespread banditry? Damn, those petty crooks sure found a loophole to work through the police force!
Or maybe it was patriotism as a result of their education, growing up in an environment where everything is "China is the great East wind!" and "Japan are the devils, their women are porn stars!".
Enough with the straw man logic. The education system brainwashes people. But as previous posters have highlighted, not everybody buys into that shit. Just because you can find examples here and there of citizens acting progressively, doesn't mean the current system doesn't foster unwarranted hatred against the PRC's opponents.
There are many pro-Beijing, anti-Japanese people in Hong Kong. I've seen them step on flags. I've seen them spout their ignorant, racist crap. But again, they will NOT stoop down to violence.
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On September 17 2012 15:55 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 15:49 Xpace wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 17 2012 15:34 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 15:31 Xpace wrote:
On a related note, Hong Kongers should be extra glad that the peaceful protests succeeded in stopping the "national studies" curriculum that China was trying to implement.
Imagine your children growing up with the mentality of these rioters!
*pictures the amount of Japanese-made cars/shops in Hong Kong* There's no explicit linkage with the national studies curriculum that was proposed and never implemented (thus evidence is circumstantial and just projections) and the mentality of these rioters :/ Don't generalize. These rioters are so 'patriotic' that they are destroying their own property and harming their own people. Whether or not the masses are using 'patriotism' as a guise for widespread banditry is a separate issue. Despite protracted public opposition to the scheme including a late July rally that drew some 90,000 people, officials resisted calls to scrap it from local primary and secondary schools, saying it was aimed at instilling a greater sense of national pride and belonging towards China SourceBut fears were stoked again when a teaching booklet called The China Model was published and distributed to schools by a government-funded, pro-Beijing organization. The booklet calls China’s ruling group “progressive, selfless and united” and criticizes the U.S.’s political system as being detrimental for public good. SourceMore than 1,000 university students in Hong Kong boycotted classes last Tuesday in protest against the pro-Beijing “patriotism” curriculum that was introduced at the beginning of this month. SourceIf you didn't know, the protests for the Daioyu Islands have spread to Hong Kong. But since Hong Kongers haven't been exposed to "national studies", this is what their protest looks like: I don't see any overturned Toyotas or burning Rolex/Dior shops. SourceSourceOn September 17 2012 15:45 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 15:41 weishime wrote:On September 17 2012 15:34 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 15:31 Xpace wrote:
On a related note, Hong Kongers should be extra glad that the peaceful protests succeeded in stopping the "national studies" curriculum that China was trying to implement.
Imagine your children growing up with the mentality of these rioters!
*pictures the amount of Japanese-made cars/shops in Hong Kong* There's no explicit linkage with the national studies curriculum that was proposed and never implemented (thus evidence is circumstantial and just projections) and the mentality of these rioters :/ Don't generalize. Yeah it's not like indoctrination from a young age can lead to those kids becoming adults with an extreme nationalist bent. Willing to attack anyone/anything related to a selected group. That never happens when you teach heavily biased history, follow it up with flag worship and dump very selective information into the media they view. Sigh... The national studies curriculum that China was trying to implement in Hong Kong is not directly linked with the educational curriculum that these rioters have recieved, that's circumstantial rather or not you can find a case where a rioter was influenced by a proposed and never materialized course (where the course material isn't even released). I'm not debating the legitimacy of the proposed curriculum because obviously it was offensive and controlling. If you use this logic then all of mainland China would be rioting right now. See my point? Reductio ad absurdum. I'm rebutting the claim that Hong Kong's children would have grown up with the mentality of the rioters had the national studies curriculum been implemented, because by extension you are saying that all of China has the mentality of the rioters since the national studies curriculum (it could be argued) is a part of the Chinese educational curriculum. In case you haven't noticed, peaceful protests also occur in China, and have been occurring for years.
Errr no. Hong Kong is a highly developed society and ruled by the British for a long time (with their laws etc). The anti-japanese sentiment in Korea is just as deep and spiteful as in China (if not more so) yet you don't see people flipping over Jap cars when there are protests about these issues in Korea because that kind of mentality doesn't exist any more, not because of what nationalism they were taught in school..
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On September 17 2012 17:47 Xpace wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 16:44 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 16:11 Xpace wrote:On September 17 2012 15:55 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 15:49 Xpace wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 17 2012 15:34 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 15:31 Xpace wrote:
On a related note, Hong Kongers should be extra glad that the peaceful protests succeeded in stopping the "national studies" curriculum that China was trying to implement.
Imagine your children growing up with the mentality of these rioters!
*pictures the amount of Japanese-made cars/shops in Hong Kong* There's no explicit linkage with the national studies curriculum that was proposed and never implemented (thus evidence is circumstantial and just projections) and the mentality of these rioters :/ Don't generalize. These rioters are so 'patriotic' that they are destroying their own property and harming their own people. Whether or not the masses are using 'patriotism' as a guise for widespread banditry is a separate issue. Despite protracted public opposition to the scheme including a late July rally that drew some 90,000 people, officials resisted calls to scrap it from local primary and secondary schools, saying it was aimed at instilling a greater sense of national pride and belonging towards China SourceBut fears were stoked again when a teaching booklet called The China Model was published and distributed to schools by a government-funded, pro-Beijing organization. The booklet calls China’s ruling group “progressive, selfless and united” and criticizes the U.S.’s political system as being detrimental for public good. SourceMore than 1,000 university students in Hong Kong boycotted classes last Tuesday in protest against the pro-Beijing “patriotism” curriculum that was introduced at the beginning of this month. SourceIf you didn't know, the protests for the Daioyu Islands have spread to Hong Kong. But since Hong Kongers haven't been exposed to "national studies", this is what their protest looks like: I don't see any overturned Toyotas or burning Rolex/Dior shops. SourceSourceOn September 17 2012 15:45 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 15:41 weishime wrote:On September 17 2012 15:34 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 15:31 Xpace wrote:
On a related note, Hong Kongers should be extra glad that the peaceful protests succeeded in stopping the "national studies" curriculum that China was trying to implement.
Imagine your children growing up with the mentality of these rioters!
*pictures the amount of Japanese-made cars/shops in Hong Kong* There's no explicit linkage with the national studies curriculum that was proposed and never implemented (thus evidence is circumstantial and just projections) and the mentality of these rioters :/ Don't generalize. Yeah it's not like indoctrination from a young age can lead to those kids becoming adults with an extreme nationalist bent. Willing to attack anyone/anything related to a selected group. That never happens when you teach heavily biased history, follow it up with flag worship and dump very selective information into the media they view. Sigh... The national studies curriculum that China was trying to implement in Hong Kong is not directly linked with the educational curriculum that these rioters have recieved, that's circumstantial rather or not you can find a case where a rioter was influenced by a proposed and never materialized course (where the course material isn't even released). I'm not debating the legitimacy of the proposed curriculum because obviously it was offensive and controlling. If you use this logic then all of mainland China would be rioting right now. See my point? Reductio ad absurdum. I'm rebutting the claim that Hong Kong's children would have grown up with the mentality of the rioters had the national studies curriculum been implemented. In case you haven't noticed, peaceful protests also occur in China, and have been occurring for years. Like this? Or this? Or this? I remember when I was at a friend's apartment in Beijing, we were on the 20th floor and the guest room had a view of a "peaceful protest" happening outside. I remember it so clearly because the crowd was so large, but they were all being cordoned off to a tight corner of a park area, and were literally surrounded by police and tape. Police vans and makeshift boards (at least 10ft high) surrounded the area so no one on the outside could see clearly. There were signs that read "Only approved journalists may enter. No film or camera allowed". Any message or symbol relating to the protest had to be "hidden until inside the protest zone", or the protester could face a fine/imprisonment. Towards the end they had huge black garbage bags full of signs, leaflets, posters, headbands, and the usual garbage left behind by the protesters taken away quietly. It wasn't on the evening news. Hell, everyone my friend spoke to that was literally 2 blocks away didn't know there was a protest going on. Truly a ' peaceful protest', lol. You seem to be confusing citizens wishing to participate in peaceful protest who are subsequently prosecuted by the government with wish for peaceful protest not existing. The fact that citizens wish to participate in peaceful protests instead of rioting contributes to my argument, not yours. That Chinese citizens, regardless of national educational curriculum, did not riot in the vast majority of cases, even when they are actively prosecuted for doing so. Also I was rebutting this statement "On a related note, Hong Kongers should be extra glad that the peaceful protests succeeded in stopping the "national studies" curriculum that China was trying to implement. Imagine your children growing up with the mentality of these rioters! " So where did this riot mentality, where destroying your own property and attacking your own countrymen came from? Simple mob mentality? I hope the Chinese aren't that uneducated, are they? Widespread banditry? Damn, those petty crooks sure found a loophole to work through the police force! Or maybe it was patriotism as a result of their education, growing up in an environment where everything is "China is the great East wind!" and "Japan are the devils, their women are porn stars!". Enough with the straw man logic. The education system brainwashes people. But as previous posters have highlighted, not everybody buys into that shit. Just because you can find examples here and there of citizens acting progressively, doesn't mean the current system doesn't foster unwarranted hatred against the PRC's opponents. There are many pro-Beijing, anti-Japanese people in Hong Kong. I've seen them step on flags. I've seen them spout their ignorant, racist crap. But again, they will NOT stoop down to violence.
Sigh. You realize it's possible for people to gain a riot mentality just from the status of their livelihood and legitimate grievances right? I'm not defending the educational system or the government of the PRC, I'm highly critical of any governing system that doesn't represent the people. I went through elementary school in China in the 90s, I know exactly what subliminal messages and tactics they employ, go look up educational material currently used in school systems, it's nothing worse than what mainstream media systems (run by profit driven organizations, film makers, and independent sources). Yes, you can always come up with circumstantial evidence which indicates that the educational system and educational material employed is what is causing these riots, but the statistics show that the vast majority participate in non violent peaceful demonstrations or choose to air their views and struggles else where in other ways (like the people on this forum right now who are from China).
Is there a direct connection between the educational system and bigotry and a centralized interest system in the PRC government that relies on its citizens developing a false sense of group solidarity in a corrupt organization that's supposed to represent them? Yes, absolutely. But much bigger the cause of these riots and continual problems is not the educational system, it's the historical events (which btw, isn't nearly given as much coverage proportional to how say the western media systems cover atrocities committed by state enemies, I have never read once coverage in China about 731 even though it's prime propaganda what with Japanese atrocities which were subsequently pardoned by America so they can be the sole benefactors of the spoils which contained data on biological weapons). The only relevant piece that people talk about is Nanking but the coverage there can be paired with the western coverage of the Holocaust, there's recent examples of media where Japanese soldiers / commanders were portrayed with duality and humanity from mainstream famous film makers such as this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Flowers_of_War
And have you realized that the type of nationalistic group mentality is what pulled China out of a great economical disaster post 80s during the collapse of the soviet union and warsaw pact after the falling out between China and USSR? Many people's livelihoods were drastically improved over the span of a decade and they truly value the group integrity and mentality of working as a collective. This is completely separate from the opportunistic government propaganda system which just takes advantage of genuine progresses made by the sweat and blood of the people, and it was derived entirely from the fact that China was completely alone in its struggle for more than 3 decades from the 70s to 90s due to the cold war.
I know that it's just rhetorical sarcasm with accusing Chinese people being uneducated, wasn't it a recent statistic that Chinese people are the ones earning the highest level of Graduate degrees in esteemed universities? These riots are in the extreme minority and spurred on by individual interests and have no coherency or organization aside from a genuine grievance for Japan who still refuse to stop honouring their war criminals. Most cases of violent riots or incidents of assault in China are actually done by people who aren't educated or simply could not afford to be with in an educational environment who are not subject to the nationalistic education system. They carry genuine grievances of poverty and don't know better.
It's fine to hate the PRC government, trust me when I say the vast majority of Chinese people who aren't opportunists benefiting from it would much rather live under a different system. But refrain from linking the acts of an organization not representative of the people it's governing with the actual majority of the populous.
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On September 17 2012 18:27 calderon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 15:55 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 15:49 Xpace wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 17 2012 15:34 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 15:31 Xpace wrote:
On a related note, Hong Kongers should be extra glad that the peaceful protests succeeded in stopping the "national studies" curriculum that China was trying to implement.
Imagine your children growing up with the mentality of these rioters!
*pictures the amount of Japanese-made cars/shops in Hong Kong* There's no explicit linkage with the national studies curriculum that was proposed and never implemented (thus evidence is circumstantial and just projections) and the mentality of these rioters :/ Don't generalize. These rioters are so 'patriotic' that they are destroying their own property and harming their own people. Whether or not the masses are using 'patriotism' as a guise for widespread banditry is a separate issue. Despite protracted public opposition to the scheme including a late July rally that drew some 90,000 people, officials resisted calls to scrap it from local primary and secondary schools, saying it was aimed at instilling a greater sense of national pride and belonging towards China SourceBut fears were stoked again when a teaching booklet called The China Model was published and distributed to schools by a government-funded, pro-Beijing organization. The booklet calls China’s ruling group “progressive, selfless and united” and criticizes the U.S.’s political system as being detrimental for public good. SourceMore than 1,000 university students in Hong Kong boycotted classes last Tuesday in protest against the pro-Beijing “patriotism” curriculum that was introduced at the beginning of this month. SourceIf you didn't know, the protests for the Daioyu Islands have spread to Hong Kong. But since Hong Kongers haven't been exposed to "national studies", this is what their protest looks like: I don't see any overturned Toyotas or burning Rolex/Dior shops. SourceSourceOn September 17 2012 15:45 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 15:41 weishime wrote:On September 17 2012 15:34 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 15:31 Xpace wrote:
On a related note, Hong Kongers should be extra glad that the peaceful protests succeeded in stopping the "national studies" curriculum that China was trying to implement.
Imagine your children growing up with the mentality of these rioters!
*pictures the amount of Japanese-made cars/shops in Hong Kong* There's no explicit linkage with the national studies curriculum that was proposed and never implemented (thus evidence is circumstantial and just projections) and the mentality of these rioters :/ Don't generalize. Yeah it's not like indoctrination from a young age can lead to those kids becoming adults with an extreme nationalist bent. Willing to attack anyone/anything related to a selected group. That never happens when you teach heavily biased history, follow it up with flag worship and dump very selective information into the media they view. Sigh... The national studies curriculum that China was trying to implement in Hong Kong is not directly linked with the educational curriculum that these rioters have recieved, that's circumstantial rather or not you can find a case where a rioter was influenced by a proposed and never materialized course (where the course material isn't even released). I'm not debating the legitimacy of the proposed curriculum because obviously it was offensive and controlling. If you use this logic then all of mainland China would be rioting right now. See my point? Reductio ad absurdum. I'm rebutting the claim that Hong Kong's children would have grown up with the mentality of the rioters had the national studies curriculum been implemented, because by extension you are saying that all of China has the mentality of the rioters since the national studies curriculum (it could be argued) is a part of the Chinese educational curriculum. In case you haven't noticed, peaceful protests also occur in China, and have been occurring for years. Errr no. Hong Kong is a highly developed society and ruled by the British for a long time (with their laws etc). The anti-japanese sentiment in Korea is just as deep and spiteful as in China (if not more so) yet you don't see people flipping over Jap cars when there are protests about these issues in Korea because that kind of mentality doesn't exist any more, not because of what nationalism they were taught in school..
You touched on the root of the problem, it's not opportunistic nationalism that's creating the problems of acts of violence, it's the fact that there is still environments where such opportunistic efforts could actually succeed, i.e. poverty and a developmental process. The hatred itself may be aggravated by the propaganda but the genuine grievances are what need to be addressed.
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Canada2068 Posts
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